Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
PxQ++
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:02 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by PxQ++ »

John wrote:
PxQ++ wrote:PxQ++
Are you a chess player?

John
Hi John
Yes, was rated high B / low A, but haven't been playing much since I quit the USCF.
Now my new hobby seems to reading about the impending economic collapse. :)

If Martin Armstrong and Nikolai Kondratiev's forecasting cycles are accurate, it looks like we are about to begin a long hard Winter.
I read some earlier comments about Mr. Armstrong here; and I wouldn't automatically dismiss the man as a 'Ponzi scheme criminal' without researching him further.
The fact that he was held seven years without trial on contempt charges is curious enough, and listening to his side of the story tells a much different tale.
This is his latest published paper if anyone is interested: http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... rtain.html

freddyv
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Re: Financial topics

Post by freddyv »

John wrote:Dear Fred,

I'd like to write an article with a title something like, "Is WSJ
lying about P/E ratios?"

In the S&P spreadsheet, P/E values using reported earnings are shown
as 127.64, 1932.00 and -464.52. No wonder WSJ is going nuts.

Do you know exactly what figures (numerator and denominator) that WSJ
and Birinyi are using to compute P/E = 12? The S&P spreadsheet shows
P/E values of 20 or 30 using operating earnings.

Sincerely,

John
John,

It appears that they are using Q3 and earlier earnings and have shifted over to operating earnings. I get $64.82 for Q3 and earlier; that gives a 12.9 P/E with the S&P at 840.

I plan on requesting an official statement from them on how they determine P/E's and what changes they have made recently and why.

It would be great if you did the same and then they might realize that people are actually paying attention. I am trying to rattle any cage I can to put some pressure on them.

--Fred

StilesBC
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by StilesBC »

Two articles this week discussing the "big picture."

First one is dedicated to JLak. ;)
Against Empirical Analysis

Timing the Depression

malleni
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by malleni »

StilesBC wrote:Two articles this week discussing the "big picture."

First one is dedicated to JLak. ;)
Against Empirical Analysis

Timing the Depression
StillesBC,

I think that your both discussions are quite good.
But it looks that you are still very fast by "global monetary deflation" (as preached constantly on this forum).

I would like to see (read) your discussion about "day after"...
I mean, to talk still about "global monetary deflation" today is:
1. nothing new
2. quite stumpy

But, lets say for that "we are in global monetary deflation spiral" (Which we are not - of course. but lets pretend...).
How long it last and what coming after?

Could you please develop a discussion about influence of Chinas enormous Inflation vs. US enormous Deflation?
I try those days to talk shortly about it on the other topic, but obviously very few on this forum dare to think "different" from John. (Gordo is honorable exception).
I know that you also have own understanding because it is obvious from your blogg.
Personally I think that you are unfortunately too fast in "Deflationary stories".

Hopefully now when you try to imagine - how we can have a global monetary deflation if ONE of the major financial power on the Planet has enormous FX reserves + inflation???
Actually - not "ONE of the major financial power", but BIGGEST financial power (in REAL money - not in "phantom" GDP!)

Today I also read this article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Are those guys from this financial power totally stupid (since it looks that they do not see the "global monetary deflation") - or John know better than them and they going to learn it too?
Namely, "very soon" they getting "enormous Deflation too" - and probably die of hunger because they are so many and "America can not feed them".
OR they going to have massive amount of ALL staff they are produced - but they CANNOT buy them because of "Deflation in China" ???


Best regards

freddyv
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Re: Financial topics

Post by freddyv »

StilesBC wrote:Two articles this week discussing the "big picture."

First one is dedicated to JLak. ;)
Against Empirical Analysis

Timing the Depression

Outstanding, Matt.

I watch with a sense of seeing history pass before me as the left-leaning trendsters on MSNBC and CNN laugh at people like those who attend the Tea Parties and a frumply old woman like Susan Boyle.

Yes, bad things are happening, but the world will in many ways be better off.

Thanks to you, Matt, John and all of you who have put the time into documenting what is happening. We are living in interesting times and I would hate to be one of those who doesn't even notice until it's too late.

--Fred

mannfm11
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Re: Financial topics

Post by mannfm11 »

I haven't been here in awhile, but the discussion of top level continues. The question about deflation is a tough one. Doug Noland at Prudent Bear is talking about they may have reflated this thing and that the current bubble is the government finance bubble, evidently around the world. I really don't know how China finances itself domestically, but I do know the USA issues bonds. I happen to believe that the world economy runs on the dollar, including Europe and the reason the US has been able to run deficits for so long isn't because the rest of the world is buying our debt, but that the rest of the world is using our debt as money. What I mean by this is when China or Japan gets $1 billion, they buy bonds and issue Yuan or Yen against it and let the Americans pay the interest and provide the collateral. Thus Asia has been able to keep its system solvent by using the US as the rock of stability. Just the fact they needed something to collateralize their money created demand for the dollar.

The dollar is backed by something or at least was. It is backed by the need of the US government to keep its credit rating to fight wars. But it is also backed by most of the property in the US. Houses are more dear than gold and silver on a day to day basis. So are companies like GE and others that have issued a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. But, it is clear that the rules have changed and there is a joker in the deck. The government of the US and the Federal Reserve are breaking the law in what they are doing and the law will eventually break the rule.

My points are twofold. One point is that we are headed for a currency crisis. The talk of a new reserve currency is nothing more than a group in some smoke filled room attempting to maintain control over world finance, not to dismount the dollar. The dollar cannot be dismounted, it can only be deemed extinct. Then the problem really gets complicated. If the US doesn't owe dollars, then what does it owe and who creates the credit and collateral for money going forward? This is counter to most peoples thinking that you just run currency off and drop it out of helicopters.

The question isn't whether the government and the Fed can create inflation. The question is, if they can create cash that has any value? Money has always been created by the private sector and borrowed by the government, not the other way around. This current procedure is more akin to inventing money rather than borrowing it. It is hard to describe what I mean because the entire game of notes deemed legal tender is an abstract idea to begin with. To be honest, I am not sure that the fiat paper dollar could have been created without a transformation from something backed by gold to start with. By the time the switch had been made, the paper was very well collateralized with corporate bonds, mortgages and government debt, not to mention the international connections that were made in debt and currency collateral. When gold was severed from the dollar in the early 1970's, the dollar still collateralized most money around the world under the terms of Bretton Woods.

So we have now reached the bizzarre in monetary history. In China they can use their trade surplus as collateral for domestic stimulus. But, the notes that collateralize it all are now being issued directly by the government promise to pay nothing. There is nothing to owe when they are now backstopping all major debt. GE is on government life support, but somehow they still have a AA rating. FNMA and FHLMC are being propped by the goverment, which basically means the government is taking all the debt that can't by paid by the populace. The banks, who technically are supposed to give money its value through their capital reserves and collateralized notes are being propped by the government. The emperor has no clothes and when is this going to become apparent.

The value of currency is a very subjective amount. We aren't talking about inflation or deflation any more, but more the case of moving from gold to fools gold. Once it is recognized as fools gold, no amount of it will amount to gold. Thus we are talking about ceasing to be in a sense and due to the interweaving of the dollar through the world monetary system, it all most likely ceases to be. The Federal government has nothing to repossess.

The ultimate deflation is extreme hyperinflation. Once the dollar hyperinflated, the entire game would be up. Everyone would be asked to reveal their hole card and all of them would be jokers.

John posted that link to the Bubble that Broke the world. What is so revealing about that book isn't that Germany went broke or any of the rest of that game. it was the fact that at some point there is a game of grab that goes on. If the US government give the indication that it is going to use tactics outside of fair play in order to settle debts, then grab goes in reverse, as the US has grabbed all the money and the rest of the world finds their till empty. If the dollar is deemed worthless, then no amount of dollars are going to be accepted to buy oil. This would be devastating to the US, but in light of the decline in oil prices over the past year with merely a 5% decline in demand, how would that market handle a 9 million barrel per day decrease in demand? Any measurement would have to be deflationary.

The primary point is that the United States has reached the point of exhaustion in creation of private debt. Nothing is going to whip that horse to run again. The guarantees of the US government mean absolutely nothing absent the private US capacity to honor them. The whole matter is nothing more than a rearrangement of deck chairs on a sinking ship. The only thing missing is the fact that all other ships are sinking with it because the world system of trade goes through the dollar. China cannot inflate without the US.

John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

I agree with you that it's impossible to reflate the bubble.

If we use the balloon analogy, then the leaking balloon is getting
smaller and smaller. There's no way to reflate the balloon
uniformly. All you can do is reflate a bulge here and there, but the
balloon as a whole keeps deflating.

Here's a new article that describes the current crisis in very simple
terms: It's a shortage of money.
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard wrote:
> The capital well is running dry and some economies will wither

> The world is running out of capital. We cannot take it for
> granted that the global bond markets will prove deep enough to
> fund the $6 trillion or so needed for the Obama fiscal package,
> US-European bank bail-outs, and ballooning deficits almost
> everywhere.

> Last Updated: 7:55PM BST 25 Apr 2009

> Unless this capital is forthcoming, a clutch of countries will
> prove unable to roll over their debts at a bearable cost. Those
> that cannot print money to tide them through, either because they
> no longer have a national currency (Ireland, Club Med), or because
> they borrowed abroad (East Europe), run the biggest risk of
> default.

> Traders already whisper that some governments are buying their
> own debt through proxies at bond auctions to keep up illusions –
> not to be confused with transparent buying by central banks under
> quantitative easing. This cannot continue for long.

> Commerzbank said every European bond auction is turning into an
> "event risk". Britain too finds itself some way down the AAA
> pecking order as it tries to sell £220bn of Gilts this year to
> irascible investors, astonished by 5pc deficits into the middle of
> the next decade.

> US hedge fund Hayman Advisers is betting on the biggest wave of
> state bankruptcies and restructurings since 1934. The worst
> profiles are almost all in Europe – the epicentre of leverage, and
> denial. As the IMF said last week, Europe's banks have written
> down 17pc of their losses – American banks have swallowed half.

> "We have spent a good part of six months combing through the
> world's sovereign balance sheets to understand how much leverage
> we are dealing with. The results are shocking," said Hayman's Kyle
> Bass.

> It looked easy for Western governments during the credit bubble,
> when China, Russia, emerging Asia, and petro-powers were
> accumulating $1.3 trillion a year in reserves, recycling this
> wealth back into US Treasuries and agency debt, or European
> bonds.

> The tap has been turned off. These countries have become net
> sellers. Central bank holdings have fallen by $248bn to $6.7
> trillion over the last six months. The oil crash has forced both
> Russia and Venezuela to slash reserves by a third. China let slip
> last week that it would use more of its $40bn monthly surplus to
> shore up growth at home and invest in harder assets – perhaps
> mining companies.

> The National Institute for Economic and Social Research (NIESR)
> said last week that since UK debt topped 200pc of GDP after the
> Second World War, we can comfortably manage the debt-load in this
> debacle (80pc to 100pc). Variants of this argument are often made
> for the rest of the OECD club.

> But our world is nothing like the late 1940s, when large families
> were rearing the workforce that would master the debt. Today we
> face demographic retreat. West and East are both tipping into
> old-aged atrophy (though the US is in best shape, nota bene).

> Japan's $1.5 trillion state pension fund – the world's biggest –
> dropped a bombshell this month. It will start selling holdings of
> Japanese state bonds this year to cover a $40bn shortfall on its
> books. So how is the Ministry of Finance going to fund a
> sovereign debt expected to reach 200pc of GDP by 2010 – also the
> world's biggest – even assuming that Japan's industry recovers
> from its 38pc crash?

> Japan is the first country to face a shrinking workforce in
> absolute terms, crossing the dreaded line in 2005. Its army of
> pensioners is dipping into the collective coffers. Japan's savings
> rate has fallen from 14pc of GDP to 2pc since 1990. Such a fate
> looms for Germany, Italy, Korea, Eastern Europe, and eventually
> China as well.

> So where is the $6 trillion going to come from this year, and
> beyond? For now we must fall back on the Fed, the Bank of
> England, and fellow central banks, relying on QE (printing money)
> to pay for our schools, roads, and administration. It is
> necessary, alas, to stave off debt deflation. But it is also a
> slippery slope, as Fed hawks keep reminding their chairman Ben
> Bernanke.

> Threadneedle Street may soon have to double its dose to £150bn,
> increasing the Gilt load that must eventually be fed back onto
> the market. The longer this goes on, the bigger the headache
> later. The Fed is in much the same bind. One wonders if Mr
> Bernanke regrets saying so blithely that Washington can create
> unlimited dollars "at essentially no cost".

> Hayman Advisers says the default threat lies in the cocktail of
> spiralling public debt and the liabilities of banks – like RBS,
> Fortis, or Hypo Real – that are landing on sovereign ledger
> books.

> "The crux of the problem is not sub-prime, or Alt-A mortgage
> loans, or this or that bank. Governments around the world allowed
> their banking systems to grow unchecked, in some cases growing
> into an untenable liability for the host country," said Mr Bass.

> A disturbing number of states look like Iceland once you dig into
> the entrails, and most are in Europe where liabilities average 4.2
> times GDP, compared with 2pc for the US. "There could be a cluster
> of defaults over the next three years, possibly sooner," he said.

> Research by former IMF chief economist Ken Rogoff and professor
> Carmen Reinhart found that spasms of default occur every couple
> of generations, each time shattering the illusions of bondholders.
> Half the world succumbed in the 1830s and again in the 1930s.

> The G20 deal to triple the IMF's fire-fighting fund to $750bn
> buys time for the likes of Ukraine and Argentina. But the deeper
> malaise is that so many of the IMF's backers are themselves
> exhausting their credit lines and cultural reserves.

> Great bankruptcies change the world. Spain's defaults under Philip
> II ruined the Catholic banking dynasties of Italy and south
> Germany, shifting the locus of financial power to Amsterdam.
> Anglo-Dutch forces were able to halt the Counter-Reformation, free
> northern Europe from absolutism, and break into North America.

> Who knows what revolution may come from this crisis if it ever
> reaches defaults. My hunch is that it would expose Europe's deep
> fatigue – brutally so – reducing the Old World to a backwater.
> Whether US hegemony remains intact is an open question. I would
> bet on US-China condominium for a quarter century, or just G2 for
> short.

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... ither.html
Evans-Pritchard makes a point that we haven't otherwise discussed:
The world "tipping into old-aged atrophy." Personal and government
savings accounts are being drawn down to support older people, thus
reducing the amount of money available for new investments.

But the point is that the $6 trillion is not a static amount. It's
constantly growing -- as pensioners demand more money, and as
financial institutions and hedge funds have to deleverage and write
down toxic assets. If that amount is increasing by $1 trillion per
month, for example -- and that's not an unreasonable guess -- then
the central banks of the world would have to do quantitative easing
(print money) in additional amounts of $1 trillion per month. And
that's clearly not happening.

So the deflationary spiral will continue despite futile central bank
efforts to reflate the bubble, creating the geopolitical consequences
that Evans-Pritchard describes.

Stein's Law: If something cannot go on forever, then it won't.

Sincerely,

John

malleni
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by malleni »

mannfm11,

Great discussion.

That is exactly what I find interesting... or "what happened at day after?"

Generally I agreed with development you are described.
One point by the way I find very interesting:
mannfm11 wrote: ...
The ultimate deflation is extreme hyperinflation.
Exactly this is the point!

Simple.
Even if we imagine "the coldest" of all "cold deflations" EVER... on the Planet... - some economic activity would be necessary for human race to survive.
If there are NO activity - than we can just imagine a dead of civilization - which, I am sure will NOT happened - this time.

That means - on the other way - that at least ONE company in one economic field WILL survive.
Also we can imagine that at least ONE bank will survive too.
ALL others will - default on debt!!!
(Of course in the real life - will be few companies and banks too.)

This company (with monopoly - obvious!) will need a credit - to expand...
Since credit will be scarce (i.e. - expensive) it is also logical that the "survived" company WILL implemented the cost of (expensive) credit in the price of - their product.
On the end the price of final product WILL - increase....
The products (at the beginning) will be bought - ONLY of those who can afford more than - necessities. (Since there will be not much competitors - outcome is clear)
Increasing of prices - can not be called other than "inflation".

Simply - the "new" inflation will not be created by commercial banks together with FED and other CB, but because of lack of credit... (i.e. expensive credit)
(I think that Peter Shiff talking about this phenomena as "inflationary depression")


The summarize - the enormous "debt deflation" (NOTHING to do with "monetary deflation") will lead only to the - great inflation...
AND that is the worst possible scenario (except of civil war!).

malleni
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by malleni »

John wrote: ...

So the deflationary spiral will continue despite futile central bank
efforts to reflate the bubble, creating the geopolitical consequences
that Evans-Pritchard describes.
...

As I understand Pritchard talking about "debt deflation"...
You (in my point of view) always talking about "monetary deflation" similar as Great depression in the USA.

On the other side, I can not blindly believe in everything what Pritchard writing.
Even if very often I agreed with his opinions - it is obviously too, that he describes situations from Britain (US) point of view... AND who saying that his view is - correct?
Moreover - this fatalistic view on the EU and Euro (Britain has nothing to do with Euro, but VERY much with dollar, US and "quantitative easing") is very often share from US mainstream media too...
Should I believe everybody than?

I do not saying that Pritchard has no right to criticize Euro-zone, but it looks quite strange (almost fatuously) that he "concentrate" on the East Europe until Britain is in the "deepest shit" - ever in its history!
Personaly, it looks like: "Look at them... We are bad, bat they are worse" - story...


To take in account all reasonable arguments is OK... but blindly "to believe" - is nothing for me.
Actually, there are many people who just "believe".
They are in different religious sects or similar... but Internet is - still free.


BTW Pritchard wrote this article two days earlier:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... -1500.html
Pritchard wrote: "...
Gold price could hit $1,500
The aggressive monetary policy of central banks around the world is playing havoc with the structure of the bullion market, creating a chronic shortage of gold that may soon push the metal to fresh records above $1,500 an ounce.
..."
Shouldn't price of gold go down too - in case of deflation as you described on many pages here?



And 4 days later he could read on the Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home
wrote: China Increases Gold Reserves 76% to Fifth-Largest
...
Obviously that he does see also that China will try to diverse theirs enormous reserves.
(even it is impossible - since with so much dollars they have AND with todays price of gold in $, they could buy ALL gold on the Planet and still have one third - to spend!)
BUT Pritchard pretend - that he does not see it.

So honestly - how I can blindly "believe" in somebodies "prediction" - and in same time see that he (or she):
1. sitting in the powder keg (Britain in his case) - and pretended that he is in wonderful situation.
2. see (AND understand!) what happened around, but decided to pretend and "not see it".

hmmm....
Hardly...

Kind regards

John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

malleni wrote: > Could you please develop a discussion about influence of Chinas
> enormous Inflation vs. US enormous Deflation?
I don't understand this. Are you saying that the rembini will
undergo hyperinflation? How did you arrive at that conclusion?
malleni wrote: > As I understand Pritchard talking about "debt deflation"... You
> (in my point of view) always talking about "monetary deflation"
> similar as Great depression in the USA.
For an international reserve currency like the US dollar, how do you
distinguish debt deflation from monetary deflation?
malleni wrote: > Shouldn't price of gold go down too - in case of deflation as you
> described on many pages here?
As I've said many times, gold is at bubble prices, just like the
stock market. I expect both of them of them to fall in price.
malleni wrote: > Moreover - this fatalistic view on the EU and Euro (Britain has
> nothing to do with Euro, but VERY much with dollar, US and
> "quantitative easing") is very often share from US mainstream
> media too... Should I believe everybody than?

> I do not saying that Pritchard has no right to criticize
> Euro-zone, but it looks quite strange (almost fatuously) that he
> "concentrate" on the East Europe until Britain is in the "deepest
> shit" - ever in its history! Personaly, it looks like: "Look at
> them... We are bad, bat they are worse" - story...
I'm sorry that you don't like Anglo-Saxons talking about Eastern
Europe, but there are two things you should keep in mind.

First, the euro is only ten years old, and could very well collapse
completely at any time.

Second, the last major international banking crisis was triggered by
the failure of the Austrian Credit-Anstalt on May 11, 1931, and a lot
of people are nervous about the possibility that Austria could lead
the way again.

The state of the Austrian economy and the Austrian banking system are
of interest to a lot of people besides Evans-Pritchard. How about
providing some of your insight about what's going on in Austria?

Sincerely,

John

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