22-Oct-11 WV-Surprise! Greece's economy worse than expected

[John]

22-Oct-11 World View -- Surprise! Greece's economy is worse than expected


Occupy Wall Street protesters very similar to Greece's protesters

** 22-Oct-11 World View -- Surprise! Greece's economy is worse than expected
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 22#e111022



Contents:
Occupy Wall Street protesters very similar to Greece's protesters
Palestinians to push U.N. for statehood recognition
Surprise! Greece's economy is worse than expected
Nato agrees to wind down Libya bombing campaign by November 1
The NTC will proclaim the liberation of Libya on Saturday
American troops will leave Iraq by end of year, causing controversy


Keys:
Generational Dynamics, occupy Wall Street, Douglas Schoen,
Mahmoud Abbas, United Nations, Greece, Nato, Libya,
National Transitional Council, NTC, Iraq

[OLD1953]

The riot between the communists and the anarchists yesterday is a perfect example of why the left/right descriptions are nearly meaningless. Many want to refer to anarchists as "left", but others want to say they are far "right". Communists are recognized as being as far left as is possible to go, but they don't consider anarchists as fellow travellers, save for the one point of wanting to tear down the existing governments. Anarchists consider Communists as just another scheme for government power. Thus, they often fight. In truth, anarchists generally just want all government to go away. That this always leads to social breakdown and totalitarianism afterwards doesn't seem to bother the anarchists. Libertarians, who are always considered as far right, are slightly modified anarchists, who recognize very little government.

Occupy Wall Street seems to be on the left, though the US version is far less left than the European version. I was amused by some recent news shenanagans that ostensibly discussed the US OWS people, but the video they were showing had all Greek and Italian street and advertising signs. The press has become a pit of opinion sellers, vying for whoever will pay the most money for whatever bias you want to present.

If Europe is admitting the Greek debt "MIGHT" be 444 billion EUROS, then it probably is at least double that figure. I suppose the market will go up on news of the "haircut" being 80%.

I suppose the people of Germany will have to tear down their government to prevent it from backing some ridiculous number of bonds. This won't wait much longer.

I'm seeing more and more "military power is passe', economic power is supreme" articles. This paves the way for bigger and bigger wars.

Iraq is going to be a mess. I'd wager we'll be asked back in within three years. Without conditions.

[at99sy]

All American troops may be gone by the end of the year. How about the private security forces that the government contracts?
My 26 y/o nephew is leaving Monday for Iraq. He is working with a government contracted security detail to guard convoys and
critical static assets. Tells me they are hiring like mad.
Looks to me like we are going back to the mercenary days of the 60's-70's.
sy

[Guest]

It truly amazes me how government leaders in Europe talk about "involuntary haircuts" of "up to 60%".

Involuntary haircuts is just another word for government confiscation of private money.

The fact that these confiscations are going to be highly selective as to who does, and does not, have their money confiscated raises concerns among those with money in banks and bonds.

The fact the rules governing who is going to be selected to have up to 60% of their money confiscated overnight will be dictated not by legislators, but by government administrators, raises greater concerns.

The fact that these proposed rules of confiscation are changed on a day by day basis is even more concerning.

The leaders of these countries seem to have no clue the consequences such unpredictable government confiscations will have on their societies.

[Reality Check]

Leaders of Europe outside of Greece appear to believe they have two choices:


1. Let the leaders, and the people, of Greece negotiate the terms of their own default with their own creditors, or,

2. The leaders of Europe outside of Greece can force the people of Greece and the creditors of Greece to accept default on terms the leaders of Europe outside of Greece dictate.


Either way the banks of Europe which hold Greek bonds will either fail, or be saved by the governments of Europe.

Under the first option the governments will be third party rescuers of the banks able to dictate the terms of the rescue.

Under the second option the governments will be perceived as the cause of the Greek default and trusted by no one as an impartial third party.


Beyond all reason, the leaders of Europe appear determined to take option 2.

There may be other options, such as the one used in the United States to avoid default entirely, but other options do not appear to be on the table.

[Reality Check]

It will be interesting to see how the proposed abandonment of Iraq by Obama turns out.

It has not happened yet, and may yet be modified by events over the next month or two.

But if the plan laid out by Obama is the one implemented it will indeed shake things up in Iraq and possibly Iran.

Turkey,Saudi Arabia and Iran all have strong reasons for wanting to influence events in both Iraq and Syria.

The Islamic Sunni Muslim government of Turkey has implemented constitutional changes in Turkey that cement it's hold on power and is now turning outward.

Turkey has just invaded Iraq for the purpose of punishing Kurdish militants.

Turkey has also threatened to intervene in Iraq if the ethnic Turkish minority is threatened.

Turkey has supported the move toward democracy in Syria which would increase the power of the Sunni majority in Syria at the expense of the minority government currently ruling Syria.

The Islamic Sunni government of Turkey also appears willing to consider supporting the huge Sunni minority in Iraq.

Saudi Arabia already financially supports the huge Sunni minority in Iraq.

Jordan could use Iraq as a place to send it's restless Sunnis Islamic militants to fight against the Shia government of Iraq.

Iran may feel obligated to increase covert military operations in Iraq to support the Shia Government in Iraq.

The United States could use such an intervention by Iran as a further justification for a bombing campaign against Iranian strategic and military infrastructure.

This may turn out to be a strategic victory for Iran or a catastrophic defeat for the current ruling Shia majority in Iraq.

Time will tell, but Iraq and Iran are again in play as a result of Obama's planned abandonment of the elected Shia government of Iraq.