Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You have decided that it's the authority.

Correct, I believe it. And that's the context I was using the word in. Other belief systems may have a concept of sin with different definitions. But it's not vague within a Judeo-Christian context.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

There I don't agree. At present mana levels, the percentage of the people who are able to practice meditation and similar mind-expanding exercises, and ultimately able to achieve enlightenment, is fixed. Also small. Apart from making these tools available to the limited number of people able to make use of them, religion accomplishes little except preaching, which does bugger-all.

So if you want that to work, we need to find a way either to identify the genetic component of enlightenment and modify those without it, or else raise the mana level. I have some ideas as to how to do the latter.

I don't agree the number is "fixed" because human evolution is not over.

The latter way might be useful, at least.

This may not be your idea, indeed; but I see it as similar: group prayer or rituals, similar to such events as Dec.31 midnight world prayer, harmonic convergence, etc. (2012 is a good year for more of this kind of thing, because the idea is out there).

Stirling's scenario isn't remotely plausible and that's not why I recommend the book. I recommend it because, given the scenario, the consequences are chillingly well portrayed. It's a good cure for technophobia.

Yes, and others might have a different view of those consequences.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It would be nice if we could devise a genetic or brain operation or some sort of pill for mindfulness. I have an uneasy suspicion that evolution requires us to actually develop this skill.

That would take thousands, if not millions of years. I'd bank on technology. After all, we can now treat depression with technology, why not lack of empathy? Why couldn't we engineer better brains capable of modeling a larger array of social relationships?

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Correct, I believe it. And that's the context I was using the word in. Other belief systems may have a concept of sin with different definitions. But it's not vague within a Judeo-Christian context.

Good! Thumbs up.

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

That would take thousands, if not millions of years. I'd bank on technology. After all, we can now treat depression with technology, why not lack of empathy? Why couldn't we engineer better brains capable of modeling a larger array of social relationships?

Because better brains will not do the trick. It is a matter of consciousness and will/skill in (among other things) using our brain. I understand the interest you have along these lines, though. An empathy pill, huh? That could take a long while too.

If more of us actually faced the fact of what we need to do, and got busy at it, it would make a difference. Remember what the Maharishi said about research showing the beneficial effects if even 1% of the people of a community are meditating. And group meditations are powerful too.

Well, time for ME to get busy at it.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't agree the number is "fixed" because human evolution is not over.

All right, I stand corrected. I will therefore modify the above to say "fixed with respect to the methods used in today's religions."

This may not be your idea, indeed; but I see it as similar: group prayer or rituals, similar to such events as Dec.31 midnight world prayer, harmonic convergence, etc. (2012 is a good year for more of this kind of thing, because the idea is out there).

That's not too far from what I have in mind, but I believe consistent and deliberate action over time by those who are adept at magic would do more than large-scale short-term participation by the poorly-trained and not-very-talented hordes.

Yes, and others might have a different view of those consequences.

The book might be a good cure for those mistakes, too.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

There I don't agree. At present mana levels, the percentage of the people who are able to practice meditation and similar mind-expanding exercises, and ultimately able to achieve enlightenment, is fixed. Also small. Apart from making these tools available to the limited number of people able to make use of them, religion accomplishes little except preaching, which does bugger-all.

I don't agree. A healthy religion can inspire a sense of community or belonging-ness. I experience this at my church on a regular basis. It activates what Jonathan Haidt calls the "hive switch." (Great book -- I just finished it)

Don't you ever have ecstatic moments in community with your fellow neopagans?

So if you want that to work, we need to find a way either to identify the genetic component of enlightenment and modify those without it,

Meh. Too many Brave New World overtones there.

or else raise the mana level. I have some ideas as to how to do the latter.

Please elaborate! (This would qualify for Eric's "higher visions" thread, you realize. )

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Because better brains will not do the trick.

Actually, they would. Think of it this way. We have a certain level of mana in the world, and a scale of receptiveness to it in the human brain, ranging from very high to nearly-nonexistent. The higher the mana level, the lower the sensitivity necessary to perceive and respond to it. On the other hand, the higher the average sensitivity, the more people who can perceive and respond to it at any given mana level. Either raising the mana level or improving the brains would therefore do the trick.

I happen to think raising the mana level would probably be easier, given the current state of our genetic and neurobiological knowledge.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

All right, I stand corrected. I will therefore modify the above to say "fixed with respect to the methods used in today's religions."

Yes, they can be modified a bit to fit into today's lifestyles. We can't all be monks.

That's not too far from what I have in mind, but I believe consistent and deliberate action over time by those who are adept at magic would do more than large-scale short-term participation by the poorly-trained and not-very-talented hordes.

You have a point there.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I don't agree. A healthy religion can inspire a sense of community or belonging-ness. I experience this at my church on a regular basis. It activates what Jonathan Haidt calls the "hive switch." (Great book -- I just finished it)

Don't you ever have ecstatic moments in community with your fellow neopagans?

Of course, but anyone who responds well to this sort of thing is already on the right wavelength. That's a nice thing from an individual perspective, but it isn't going to do much for society; it's part of the baseline, really.

Please elaborate! (This would qualify for Eric's "higher visions" thread, you realize. )

It's a magical thing. I've done it on a small scale, but it would take a lot more than me to accomplish. Basically, it involves a focused, ongoing, 24/7/365 invocation on a fairly large scale to bring more magic to the planet.

Brian, just as an aside, when you speak of mana and the Chinese speak of Qi, are you referring to the same phenomenon?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

So if you want that to work, we need to find a way either to identify the genetic component of enlightenment and modify those without it, or else raise the mana level. I have some ideas as to how to do the latter.

I recommend wandering in the wilderness with a handful of quirky companions and killing the random monsters that show up. That usually raises the mana level.

Seriously though, exactly what is the "mana level" and why would a very limited number of people be able to benefit from meditation at any one time? The term seems to imply a sort of musical chairs constraint on enlightenment where the first few people to gain it block the others out. Wouldn't it be more plausible for some people to respond more strongly to meditation than others as a result of brain chemistry -- which incidentally would open the door for enlightenment pills?

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

I recommend wandering in the wilderness with a handful of quirky companions and killing the random monsters that show up. That usually raises the mana level.

That's not as crazy as it sounds. A good D&D adventure can be a very mindful experience. Someone ought to study the brain waves of RPGers in the midst of a melee.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Brian, just as an aside, when you speak of mana and the Chinese speak of Qi, are you referring to the same phenomenon?

Yes, although I fancy I have a better grasp of what it is than they do.

Kurt, I realize that D&D players, not to mention players of on-line videogames like World of Warcraft, are likely to have preconceptions here; all I can say is that I took the term from the Kahunas of Hawaii, who also were the source Larry Niven used, and the gamers stole it from him.

Mana is a general term for the energy (or rather, energy-analog) of mystical experience and psychic phenomena. My own theory is that it is a universal organizing principle that moves in its own frame of reference, association space, rather than in space-time, and that affects physical processes by altering the probabilities of indeterminate events. All mystical or magical effects, internal or external, can be described in terms of probability alteration, and the rules of thumb in all schools of magic regarding the concentration and application of mana (whether they use that term or not) can be modeled in terms of making, breaking, intensifying, or weakening associations.

There's more to it than that, but that's the gist.

EDIT

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

The term seems to imply a sort of musical chairs constraint on enlightenment where the first few people to gain it block the others out.

No, because mana is not energy and thus not constrained by natural laws applying to energy, including conservation.

The problem IMO being technology itself, in a way--- the automatic, evolution-created/adapted instinctive or reactive operations of our own brains and bodies--- I think the cure needs to be to develop the skill to master this "technology," rather than rely on yet another automatic solution, even if now made outside our bodies by our brains. It may take a while, but in the 2T and early 3T there was a large mindset of willingness to engage in this process. That will come around again, even if today many people (especially people on this board) have gone back to looking to technology for all solutions, as we did back in the 1T.

Although, approaching it from both angles might be best. After all, I do still take headache pills (not depression pills though).

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Yes, although I fancy I have a better grasp of what it is than they do.
...
Mana is a general term for the energy (or rather, energy-analog) of mystical experience and psychic phenomena. My own theory is that it is a universal organizing principle that moves in its own frame of reference...

That's great, as long as we realize that there will be different theories and terms among different spiritual/philosophical persuasions, for much the same or similar process and energy.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's great, as long as we realize that there will be different theories and terms among different spiritual/philosophical persuasions, for much the same or similar process and energy.

Those are not theories. They are aesthetic and/or spiritual conceptions. A theory exists in the context of science by definition.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Those are not theories. They are aesthetic and/or spiritual conceptions. A theory exists in the context of science by definition.

As long as we realize that there will be different theories, terms, conceptions, whatever, for the same or similar process and energy, the important thing being to do it.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

As long as we realize that there will be different theories, terms, conceptions, whatever, for the same or similar process and energy, the important thing being to do it.

I contend that it's not going to be possible to do it until we understand that it can be done, and that most people who approach the matter from your perspective don't see that it can be done simply because they are conservative (in the dictionary sense) by nature and don't tend to imagine the new.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Mana is a general term for the energy (or rather, energy-analog) of mystical experience and psychic phenomena.

Of course, but the existence of mana is in doubt.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

My own theory is that it is a universal organizing principle that moves in its own frame of reference, association space, rather than in space-time, and that affects physical processes by altering the probabilities of indeterminate events.

OK, so while not directly measurable, the effects of mana would be measurable. That would mean that the concept could be demonstrated or falsified by scientific experiment, correct?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

No, because mana is not energy and thus not constrained by natural laws applying to energy, including conservation.

I didn't think you were saying that there was a permanent limit on supply, just some limit in the present. The term "mana level" seems to imply a current limit.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

That's not as crazy as it sounds. A good D&D adventure can be a very mindful experience. Someone ought to study the brain waves of RPGers in the midst of a melee.

I've read that there is a known association between lots of theta-wave activity in EEG readings and both mystical experiences and situations where somebody is "in the zone" and totally emerged in an activity. Also, experienced meditators can shift to a Theta-dominant state at will. Additionally, there is a burst of Theta waves when somebody has a "light bulb" moment.

I cannot possibly give one or even answer this list of the root cause of human problems. We are human and flawed.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

I contend that it's not going to be possible to do it until we understand that it can be done, and that most people who approach the matter from your perspective don't see that it can be done simply because they are conservative (in the dictionary sense) by nature and don't tend to imagine the new.

Most people of my perspective are new agers and imagine the new all the time.

The point is to practice mindfulness, individually and in groups, using the theories and concepts that are meaningful to them that are more-or-less the same (as you say, a mystical perspective). I don't think you're going to get a lot of folks to adopt your own theory and religion; many different perspectives will need to come together and find common ground. I think it's obvious that this is what I am saying, and that what I am saying is obvious to those who have a mystical or psychic or magical perspective.

Funny, I am listening to that rainbow song right now by coincidence, the rainbow connection; someday we'll find it.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

I contend that it's not going to be possible to do it until we understand that it can be done, and that most people who approach the matter from your perspective don't see that it can be done simply because they are conservative (in the dictionary sense) by nature and don't tend to imagine the new.

...Same can be said for your perspective on others' perspective...

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

Of course, but the existence of mana is in doubt.

Not by those who make use of it, who are the only ones capable of implementing what I'm talking about here and thus the only ones who need to concern themselves. The NATURE of it is certainly in doubt, though.

OK, so while not directly measurable, the effects of mana would be measurable. That would mean that the concept could be demonstrated or falsified by scientific experiment, correct?

And has been. However, I believe all such attempts, while they produced interesting data, were aiming at the wrong audience; there is really no reason why the scientific community needs to accept this idea, as there is nothing that most scientists can do with it anyway.

I didn't think you were saying that there was a permanent limit on supply, just some limit in the present. The term "mana level" seems to imply a current limit.

Yes, but not in the sense that dipping into it reduces the supply. A better analogy might be radio reception. Your ability to pick up a given signal depends on the signal's strength and the sensitivity of your receiver, but not on how many other people in your neighborhood are tuning into the same wavelength.