Eric, I'm having trouble navigating your website, where do you list the Generations and their planetary aspects, like Rags has?

~Chas'88

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Well, this is a pertinent topic, as my eldest daughter has professed her love for him and desire to marry him. As he is economically self sufficient, talented, and apparently nonviolent, I cannot really condemn her choice. I had to reach way back in my closet to dig out the sad fact that young Uzi was in love with Debbie Gibson at just about the same age and probably wanted to marry her too. Anyway, we are reading the biography of Justin Bieber at night.

At the same time, I dislike the extent to which my children have been completely overwhelmed by the entertainment octopus, of which Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez are just two of many, many heads. I am glad we decided not to have television in our house. They might have been completely lobotomized by Disney by now. The stuff is potent. You can lose your child. I have seen so many little kids addicted to television and video games, who refuse to go out doors or normally associate with others, outside the context of discussing the spectacle or gaining access to the addictive media.

Justin and Selena are examples of how different generations can be. How were most Xer teen stars at the same ages? At 20, Gomez is still cute and harmless. Were Xer pop stars the same at 20? Dare I mention Kylie Minogue? Cristina Aguilera? They came out of the same pop music factory.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

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Oh, hell. One look at that guy and I already hate his guts.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green's website "The baby boomers, part two," 1957-62(Generation W-c) (Uranus in Leo,Neptune in Scorpio, Pluto in Virgo)This group was too young for thesixties and so are more conventionalin their approach to life. They aretalented investigators or analystsand provide many of the "yuppie"computer professionals. Most in thisgroup are self-contained, shrewd,secretive, careful, tenacious,calculating and capable. They are morethoughtful, hesitant, reflectiveand unsure than the elder boomers, butoften no less outgoing andexhibitionist (since Uranus is in Leo). Infact, many in this grouphave already made quite an impression in theshow business world.Examples: Scott Baio, Matthew Broderick, KatieCouric, Tom Cruise,Michael J. Fox, Woody Harrelson, Michael Jackson,Madonna, Demi Moore,Eddie Murphy, Donny Osmond, Sean Penn, Prince, TimRobbins.

People born in that time span can be either Boomer or Xer. Is there any particular reason you haven't adopted the Joneser concept, Eric? Or at least the typologization of S&H with Xers as starting in 1961?

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Oh, hell. One look at that guy and I already hate his guts.

Everybody hated Valentino, too, because he was also a girly boy. And do you know that Bieber's mom also has a biography out? When I first saw their picture, I thought she was his girlfriend



She is only three years older than me! Which means, that's right, I am old enough to have been Justin Bieber's father.

The Boomer generation is a different animal from the Sixties generation. The Sixties generation was mostly comprised of adaptives with idealist apprentices. Think Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir from the Grateful Dead. The Boomer generation, which, to be fair, was influenced as adults and teenagers by the consciousness expansion of that time period, actually reached its zenith somewhere around the filming of Romancing the Stone. Keep in mind, Silents are artists. Boomers are idealists. Grace Slick and Jerry Garcia and Lou Reed are/were artists. They were famous for making music (and Slick is now a painter). Alec Baldwin and Sean Penn and Tim Robbins and Dennis Miller and Tom Selleck (and all the other actors who think they are always right) are prophets. Prophets believe that they are on a mission from God, if not God incarnate. Prince, Michael Jackson, and Madonna certainly see/saw themselves as minor Gods, which is why Prince only listens to his own music for inspiration and Michael Jackson built some bizarre fantasy ranch for children, at which he was the center. Nomads, in comparison, are rootless people who move from place to place, never settling permanently in one location.

Originally Posted by millennialX

@Summer...you are right. I also find it interesting that young girls seem to go for the prettiest guys.

Naturally. ...about what exactly? w/r/t pretty boys...Has to do with desiring a closer resemblance of herself. And yes, a considerable number grow out of it.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I guess it might be no wonder that someone not aspiring to the "hypermasculine" (shall I say, among other things, redneck) American cultural ideal might appeal to me. I also like that one of his most popular songs (Never Say Never, title of his "autobiographical" film) has the same message as one of my favorite 60s songs, That's the Way it's gonna Be.

Well, it wouldn't say much about you. Because this image is not wholly different from what you came of age with?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

So maybe he's not masculine, but still able to hang in there despite adversity. Oh, and rumor has it that this song will be mentioned as a Wheel of Fortune clue tonight.

This is the point being made about contradiction within the culture. He is clearly appealing to an element within the culture that is exaggeratedly debased or devalued. And because only he is allowed to express it (rather than say Asian pop again), he can be both the single avenue with which to experience it as well as the single target with which to rebuke it. It's a way to not have to deal with the desires he elicits. It's quite indicative of the way our consumer culture works and is why those youtube comments are so fascinating...

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Another interesting thing; I was looking at one of his videos on You Tube, and in the comments section was a reply to a fan from Justin himself, "2 minutes ago" it said. Woah; that sorta thing didn't happen in my day! (But I did get to meet the singer of That's the Way it's Gonna Be, much later)

Based on Ryen's past statements, there's more than a bit of suspicion that those comments may not be his.

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Originally Posted by summer in the fall

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Pretty, but not pretty enough. Here's the worlds prettiest man:




Justin, eat your heart out ... or something.

Originally Posted by Uzi

Everybody hated Valentino, too, because he was also a girly boy. And do you know that Bieber's mom also has a biography out? When I first saw their picture, I thought she was his girlfriend



She is only three years older than me! Which means, that's right, I am old enough to have been Justin Bieber's father.

Haha, wonderful!

I don't hate this Biber kid cause he's girly, I hate him cause he seems like a self infatuated and arrogant little pompous ass.

Valentino never aroused any feelings of ire in me. If I was a dame I'd probably think he was hot stuff.

Originally Posted by Uzi

Everybody hated Valentino, too, because he was also a girly boy. And do you know that Bieber's mom also has a biography out? When I first saw their picture, I thought she was his girlfriend



She is only three years older than me! Which means, that's right, I am old enough to have been Justin Bieber's father.

Really? Was there enough interest in Justin Bieber's mom to warrant a book? The end is closer than I thought.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Really? Was there enough interest in Justin Bieber's mom to warrant a book? The end is closer than I thought.

When the world hands you a blank check, you can either say aw shucks, hand it back and blush, or cash the damn thing. I can't blame them for choosing option 2, but I can blame the world for its stupidity in handing it to them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Haha, wonderful!

I don't hate this Biber kid cause he's girly, I hate him cause he seems like a self infatuated and arrogant little pompous ass.

Valentino never aroused any feelings of ire in me. If I was a dame I'd probably think he was hot stuff.

Well, from an Italian American perspective, I appreciate him, because he made it okay to be a Mediterranean Latin lover, rather than an Anglo-American fighter. I also like Justin Bieber's mom for some reason. Maybe it's the hoop earrings ... and her net worth ...

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps teenage boys just really aren't into bubble gum pop music and it doesn't really have anything to do with what Justin Bieber looks like? I know they certainly weren't when I was teenager back in the early 80's. They weren't exactly buying the soundtrack from Grease. No, they were listening hard rock, punk rock, and heavy metal. They preferred the more grittier stuff. And do you remember what the guys from those bands looked like back then? A lot of them had long, poofed out, hair sprayed hair and wore make-up. They weren't exactly the John Wayne or Clint Eastwood looking types. And guess what, there are a lot guys from alternative or indie bands that the teenage boys do like who still have long hair and some still wear make-up.

Does everything on this forum need to be turned into some kind of gender or culture wars statement? Geez...Get over it.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps teenage boys just really aren't into bubble gum pop music and it doesn't really have anything to do with what Justin Bieber looks like? I know they certainly weren't when I was teenager back in the early 80's. They weren't exactly buying the soundtrack from Grease. No, they were listening hard rock, punk rock, and heavy metal. They preferred the more grittier stuff. And do you remember what the guys from those bands looked like back then? A lot of them had long, poofed out, hair sprayed hair and wore make-up. They weren't exactly the John Wayne or Clint Eastwood looking types. And guess what, there are a lot guys from alternative or indie bands that the teenage boys do like who still have long hair and some still wear make-up.

Does everything on this forum need to be turned into some kind of gender or culture wars statement? Geez...Get over it.

Also consider that the record industry is also not marketing the acts to boys.

Originally Posted by millennialX

Also consider that the record industry is also not marketing the acts to boys.

Yep, not a lot of teenage boys out there buying Justin Bieber dolls or pink lunchboxes with his face on them. It's the mainly the pre-teen girls who are the target audience of record company for Justin Bieber. I'm not even sure the teenage girls are really listening to him.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Originally Posted by millennialX

Also consider that the record industry is also not marketing the acts to boys.

Yep, not a lot of teenage boys out there buying Justin Bieber dolls or pink lunchboxes with his face on them. It's the mainly the pre-teen girls who are the target audience of record company for Justin Bieber. I'm not even sure the teenage girls are really listening to him.

That would seem to contradict this:

Originally Posted by ASB65

Eric, I think it's fine that you like Justin Bieber. Everyone is entitled to their own musical opinions. My older son never liked him, but then he generally has never liked any pop music. My younger son loved Justin Bieber for a while and he even had a poster of him in his room. But then his older brother teased him so much about it that he took it down and now he says he doesn't like Justin Bieber anymore. (But truth be told, since my younger son does tend to like pop music more than other kinds of music, he probably secretly still does like Bieber.)

Also, MillieX, what would acts marketed to boys look like?

Cheers.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

That would seem to contradict this:



Also, MillieX, what would acts marketed to boys look like?

Cheers.

Good question and I don't think it's really that cut and dry. It's complicated and I actually don't think the music and film industry knows how to market entertainment to young men. There are more failures then wins. I guess I could generalize and say anything with explosions, T and A may do it....but that would be too easy. But then that would exclude folks like me.

That said, I think guys have a problem with not really enjoying acts that are close to their own age group. A 13 year old in the 90s may be too busy listening to stuff that a mature adult should be listening to: gangsta rap/ and hard rock.

It's like one minute they are playing with their GI Joes and then the above. I think the "kid" returns by the time they enter college and next thing you know, it's all about being young again and doing childish jackass worthy things (generalization).

As far as young men who do view stuff targeted to young women (teen flicks) I do think those films work because young women want to see it and then bring their male friends to the theaters to watch it with them. In regards to Titanic, in 1997, it was mainly for make out purposes.

This is just my experience and have to admit, that many Yer Guys who are now in the 30s, include old Backstreet Boys and Nsync songs on their itune playlist. Especially songs like, "I want it that Way."

It's hard to consider most of the pop music of today any differently.

....Yea but it really isn't. I mean most pop songs at least attempt to be catchy, there is absolutely nothing catchy or even interesting about the music this kid sings. There's just nothing, it's just a lot of nothing.

Nothing sticks out in anyway whatsoever in his music.

The story posted on wikipedia is that a promoter or producer of some kind found his videos on you tube, and that was his start. Is that incorrect?

His start was Kanye West, therefore he had connections in the industry. His mother had been trying to get him a record deal for years before that though.

It is a little strange that he is such a heartthrob for young girls, when he isn't even especially good looking. Not bad by any means, but he's sure no hunk. And his singing voice is no better than other singers. But he does have talent, dances very well, and writes some good songs. That last one deserves some respect in my book. Not many people today are writing good songs, especially if they are 16 years old.

Wow what a pathetic argument Eric...

First of all...the "kid" is actually 18 flipping years old. ok he's not a kid anymore! And how many kids are writing songs at 16-18? I mean Paul Rodgers, Simon Kirke, Phil Spector, need I go on??

Just because you "write songs" (no he doesn't, they are totally created for him by his record producers for god's sakes!) doesn't mean I have to "respect" anything! I only respect art which is well created, fuck the rest.

I don't know if Bieber's popularity will last; it's too early to say he's "fading." I wonder if many of those who don't like him, are more interested in knocking him because he's small and young for his age, and because of who likes him, than because of his music.

I'm 4 foot, 11 and 3/4 inches female (with no hyper masculinity problems..) and I think he's the most boring "musician" (I mean what instrument does he play?) I've ever heard. Please...I've played piano since I was 6 and flute since I was 9, just because someone strums a power chord on a guitar and sings a few notes doesn't make them a musician! How insulting to actual musicians.

Personally I could care less about those things; the only thing I'm interested in is his music.

Same here. His music is still unimaginative, bland, and unintelligent.

It is interesting to compare Bieber to Michael Jackson or other child or teenage rockers. I may change my mind, but so far I think I like Bieber a little better than Jackson even at the height of his solo career.

.....in what what?? Michael Jackson was completely self taught and had to perform in crappy strip joints just to get noticed! This Bieber kid put a video on youtube and Kanye West called up his producers....

See this is the problem I have with this kid...there used to be a kid singer when I was young called Billy Gilman. This kid performed at tons of local country concerts just to get notoriety. This was probably around the late 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkX30gaH6qY

At age 11 he had a better voice in every possible way (range, tonal color) than Justin Bieber will ever have.

Even today, there are kids, like Shaheen Jafargholi (from Britain's Got Talent) that blow that Bieber kid OUT OF THE WATER.

No flipping way is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLJ9fHqDlOA

better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYDM3MIzEHo

No flipping way Eric. Clean your ears out! As a trained musician, I can only recognize that one voice is clearly superior to the other.

And it's the same with kids like Michael jackson, (who was singing adult songs created by Smoky Robinson, one of the greatest songwriters of the 20th century) or even more obscure kid singers who never even got a chance to record an album. How shameful that we give hacks like Bieber and Aaron Carter the chance to be millionaires and sellouts and actual singers who work hard at their craft not even a chance to sing for people. What are we teaching young children today? That being famous is more important than music...it's utter bullshit! If you apply the idea of being a sellout to the adult music world, it deserves to be applied to the child music world.

That bridge section near the end of "Pray" @ 2:00 is really beautiful. The guy I really despised in the old days was Donny Osmond.

::snore::

Actually Donny Osmond's music had interesting things happen.

I like this one too, and it gets better as it goes along.

Yea but you forgot that it starts out pretty damn boring in the first place...

For the record I don't say this as someone who hates the kid or even dislikes him. He was way too late for me pop culturally and had no effect on my musical experience growing up. I'm saying this as someone who is utterly unimpressed by his mediocre musicianship.

I would say that the way the teenage boys tend to look at Justin Bieber is probably pretty similar to the way you looked at Donny Osmond or David Cassidy. But then Justin Bieber has millions and can probably get just about any girl he wants. Which is more than I can say for the average teenage boy who makes fun of him.

But David Cassidy could sing really well....whether you thought he was gay or not..

Justin Bieber is 18 years old and still sings like a child!

David Cassidy sounded like an adult singer at age 15/16...he also started on Broadway and worked his way into show business. Justin Bieber never did anything of the sort...

Huge difference.

There are TONS Of kid musicians out there who are phenomenally talented and never noticed. Justin Bieber is not even close to their musical abilities.

Originally Posted by Felix5

But David Cassidy could sing really well....whether you thought he was gay or not..

Justin Bieber is 18 years old and still sings like a child!

David Cassidy sounded like an adult singer at age 15/16...he also started on Broadway and worked his way into show business. Justin Bieber never did anything of the sort...

Huge difference.

There are TONS Of kid musicians out there who are phenomenally talented and never noticed. Justin Bieber is not even close to their musical abilities.

Either way, I don't they think David Casssidy or Donny Osmond got a whole respect from teenage boys and young guys back then. Although when I was grade school I did have Partridge Family lunchbox and I wanted to marry Donny Osmond. It's the same thing. They appealed to young pre-teen girls, much like Justin Bieber does today or the Back Street Boys did when you are were a young girl.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Either way, I don't they think David Casssidy or Donny Osmond got a whole respect from teenage boys and young guys back then. Although when I was grade school I did have Partridge Family lunchbox and I wanted to marry Donny Osmond. It's the same thing. They appealed to young pre-teen girls, much like Justin Bieber does today or the Back Street Boys did when you are were a young girl.

Amy, so true. I wonder why culture always think their experience is new. We have been here before, the complaints and comments are the same, but the faces are different.