Originally Posted by Chas'88

As much as I hate to say it, but evidence that culture is taking a turn for "broad" appeal?

~Chas'88

Yes, that's what I was suggesting earlier. 4T culture coming in. It may or may not actually happen; right now pop is still dominated by sexual posing, rap, party songs, etc., whereas Justin's (even if sexy) are filled with artistry-- however some people might not appreciate it just because he's young and his voice is high (as if Michael Jackson's voice was not high??).

Some of Tommy Roe's songs, such as the fairly-good Sweet Pea, were produced by the same artist (Curt Boettcher, 1944-1987) that produced and arranged Lee Mallory's That's the Way it's gonna Be, (a big favorite of mine) which I mentioned earlier, and in which Bieber's Never Say Never is in the same tradition. It was written by folk legends Bob Gibson and Phil Ochs. I would call the mid-sixties style which artists like Boettcher and Roe spearheaded "soft-pop" or "sunshine pop," and it became semi-psychedelic, before it dumbed down into "bubblegum" from at least the time of Sugar Sugar by the Archies (1969). Boettcher can be heard on his excellent 1968 mid-sized hit song attributed to Sagittarius called Another Time.

Of course, unlike Justin, if someone back then had accused Curt Boettcher of being gay, they would have been right. Interesting also that Boettcher/Mallory and Bieber are both closely associated with people named Usher (Sagittarius = Gary Usher).

We got a copy of "Dizzy" in the mail because my Dad owned a classical radio station and occasionally got sent some pop records; it was fun to see it go to number 1. I didn't consider it bubblegum myself, because I liked it. Tripe like Smile a Little Smile for Me, Me and You and a Dog Named Boo, and Alone Again Naturally were what I called bubblegum. And then along came Donny Osmond. The term may have originated from the group called the 1910 Fruitgum Company which had hits in 1968 like Goody Goody Gumdrops and Simon Says. Ohio Express also released Yummy Yummy Yummy about the same time.

Originally Posted by Odin

Eric is a typical Boomer, he thinks his tastes are the holy writ of Truth.

Heh. Just off the Google presses: Yes indeed, Eric's tastes are quite impeccable. (TM)
Extra, Extra, read all about, Bieber is just like a newspaper, Black and white, and red/read all over.

Yes they are;

and Bieber "will not stay on the ground, whenever you knock him down," Never Say Never.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes they are;

and Bieber "will not stay on the ground, whenever you knock him down," Never Say Never.

Typical Boomer not willing to see the forest for the trees. No. Bieber decided to take a voluntary smackdown. The origination point is street gang initiations. Technically speaking , a minor form of a "Beat in": Cf. The actual definition below:
""Beat in" or "jump in" - The inductee must prove him/her self by enduring a severe beating by a pre-determined number of members for a pre-determined number of minutes. During this act the members use fists, kicks and stomps, or even clubs to beat the new member. This is frequently called an "act of love." It is also, in many cases, an act of extreme violence. The new member at best may survive with broken ribs, cuts and contusions or maybe a broken jaw. However the beating can be so severe that the person could suffer permanent injury or even death."

Since we can discount any gang intentions wrt Bieber, that leaves only one explanation. That is, the "little head doing all of the thinking instead of the big head." This is a common affliction of teenage boys. Face it, any other explanation would involve some reference to insanity.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Typical Boomer not willing to see the forest for the trees.

Vice versa: idealists see the forest; nomads can only see the trees. That's why you guys are cynics.

No. Bieber decided to take a voluntary smackdown. The origination point is street gang initiations. Technically speaking , a minor form of a "Beat in": Cf. The actual definition below:
""Beat in" or "jump in" - The inductee must prove him/her self by enduring a severe beating by a pre-determined number of members for a pre-determined number of minutes. During this act the members use fists, kicks and stomps, or even clubs to beat the new member. This is frequently called an "act of love." It is also, in many cases, an act of extreme violence. The new member at best may survive with broken ribs, cuts and contusions or maybe a broken jaw. However the beating can be so severe that the person could suffer permanent injury or even death."

Since we can discount any gang intentions wrt Bieber, that leaves only one explanation. That is, the "little head doing all of the thinking instead of the big head." This is a common affliction of teenage boys. Face it, any other explanation would involve some reference to insanity.

Is there a story about Bieber doing this? Where does the picture come from?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Vice versa: idealists see the forest; nomads can only see the trees. That's why you guys are cynics.

Uhhh. I'm a cusper, so I can do both. Justin Bieber just got himself all ugly, so that tree is blatantly obviously.

Is there a story about Bieber doing this? Where does the picture come from?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...xing-ring.html
http://digitaljournal.com/article/321493
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertai...-1226305414637
... And many others. Trust me, I thought it strange, so I did some checks wrt sources. As per the above, a site in the UK, one in Australia, and one, I think local US. Of course, feel free to validate. (Most also have the picture as well. ) Just go to www.google.com and type in: Justin Bieber boxing.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes, that's what I was suggesting earlier. 4T culture coming in. It may or may not actually happen; right now pop is still dominated by sexual posing, rap, party songs, etc., whereas Justin's (even if sexy) are filled with artistry-- however some people might not appreciate it just because he's young and his voice is high (as if Michael Jackson's voice was not high??).

What I find funny is that there are many vapid, cutesy, 60s teeny-bopper songs that are firmly a part of popular culture, like "My Girl", and yet my generation's teen-pop gets shat on.

Do you like Justin Bieber? Music= No.

My problem isn't with Bieber as a person, but with the amount of buzz he recieves. I hate how sometimes I'm commenting on a YouTube video about drumming, rapping, or listening to something like "Ordinary People" by John Legend and see "You should check out Justin Bieber *insert rapping, drumming, or singing here*". The kid isn't an amazing songwriter or singer and he definitely has no talent for rapping or the drums (which I play!). He's just good for his age when it comes to singing and performing. But I've seen equally good singers my age (17) every year in my school, which has a great chorus/vocal ensemble, and better singers online. Bieber was just the lucky person out of millions of young singers who became famous.

But then again, I can't stand the pop genre due to a lot of talent being judged off of sales and popularity. Popularity sells. As a guy who plays music, that is not a reliable factor to judge musical talent off of. It's like saying Lil Wayne is the best because he makes a lot of money. That makes no sense when you can clearly see that his brain is fried from whatever drugs he ingested since making enough money to afford it. Another example is Lady Gaga. She was actually a talented "jazz pianist" before her popularity, but she sells herself off of shock value.

It's just sort of frustrating knowing that there are thousands of musical prodigies, 10 times more talented than Justin Bieber or any pop star, that will never be recognized even a fraction as much. And these are people on YouTube, Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, etc. selling free music just to be noticed. Unfortunately, what I see a lot of the time is that the majority of people can't appreciate more technical forms of music. And I'm not faulting anyone, a lot of people just don't have the knowledge, patience, or awareness for anything more than pop music.

Hmmm, I guess my whole problem is with the audience. A lot of artists try appealing too much to their fans. My personal philosophy is that, in the beginning, everyone starts music for themselves because they love it. Why would you adjust your sound, the one that made you famous, for someone else unless you genuinely agree with the change? Again, what's popular sells. If autotune is popular and a label wants me to change my sound to include autotune, I'd say no. But I suppose that depends whether your in music for:

a. The Music
or
b. The Fame

Originally Posted by Odin

What I find funny is that there are many vapid, cutesy, 60s teeny-bopper songs that are firmly a part of popular culture, like "My Girl", and yet my generation's teen-pop gets shat on.

My Girl was a great song, not vapid at all. My Guy was even better. Both by Smokey Robinson, a great artist.

Originally Posted by Cole94

Do you like Justin Bieber? Music= No.

My problem isn't with Bieber as a person, but with the amount of buzz he recieves. I hate how sometimes I'm commenting on a YouTube video about drumming, rapping, or listening to something like "Ordinary People" by John Legend and see "You should check out Justin Bieber *insert rapping, drumming, or singing here*". The kid isn't an amazing songwriter or singer and he definitely has no talent for rapping or the drums (which I play!). He's just good for his age when it comes to singing and performing. But I've seen equally good singers my age (17) every year in my school, which has a great chorus/vocal ensemble, and better singers online. Bieber was just the lucky person out of millions of young singers who became famous.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree of course that there are other talented young musicians who aren't famous. Bieber is quite a talented drummer though, and for his age yes since he started at 2! And whoever wrote Pray (Bieber did) has to be considered an amazing songwriter. Check it out. He had help putting it all together of course; most songwriters do. There may be some other good pop songs around these days, but so far Pray is the best I've heard. I am looking around a bit, and my challenge on this thread still stands to name/link one. btw I could care less if Bieber has no talent for rapping. Rap is not music, and I am mainly interested in music.

But then again, I can't stand the pop genre due to a lot of talent being judged off of sales and popularity. Popularity sells. As a guy who plays music, that is not a reliable factor to judge musical talent off of. It's like saying Lil Wayne is the best because he makes a lot of money. That makes no sense when you can clearly see that his brain is fried from whatever drugs he ingested since making enough money to afford it. Another example is Lady Gaga. She was actually a talented "jazz pianist" before her popularity, but she sells herself off of shock value.

It's just sort of frustrating knowing that there are thousands of musical prodigies, 10 times more talented than Justin Bieber or any pop star, that will never be recognized even a fraction as much. And these are people on YouTube, Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, etc. selling free music just to be noticed. Unfortunately, what I see a lot of the time is that the majority of people can't appreciate more technical forms of music. And I'm not faulting anyone, a lot of people just don't have the knowledge, patience, or awareness for anything more than pop music.

I agree with all this. But if there are lots of "musical prodigies, 10 times more talented than Justin Bieber or any pop star," and they are on You Tube or My Space, I'd like to see the links. I don't know what you mean by "more technical forms of music." I'm interested in music of higher quality, more artistry, etc. I agree with the condition of pop music and its audience today, but I am glad at least one famous pop artist (Bieber) appears to be interested in what I am interested in.

Hmmm, I guess my whole problem is with the audience. A lot of artists try appealing too much to their fans. My personal philosophy is that, in the beginning, everyone starts music for themselves because they love it. Why would you adjust your sound, the one that made you famous, for someone else unless you genuinely agree with the change? Again, what's popular sells. If autotune is popular and a label wants me to change my sound to include autotune, I'd say no. But I suppose that depends whether your in music for:

a. The Music
or
b. The Fame

I'm not even totally sure what autotune is, that would be a popular sound gimmick. If it is the electronic echo effects I hear, I like it. So far I like where Bieber is taking his music.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...xing-ring.html
http://digitaljournal.com/article/321493
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertai...-1226305414637
... And many others. Trust me, I thought it strange, so I did some checks wrt sources. As per the above, a site in the UK, one in Australia, and one, I think local US. Of course, feel free to validate. (Most also have the picture as well. ) Just go to www.google.com and type in: Justin Bieber boxing.

Clearly a photoshoot, not a real boxing match. If you see Never Say Never though, it's clear it's not out of character, and the fans would not really be shocked. He'd have to bulk up and train quite a bit to actually enter the ring, and of course he has no business actually doing it. On the other hand, he's a good athlete, and I don't think I would tangle with him, even though he could say about me "he's bigger than me, stronger than me, his arms are a bit longer than me" etc. He brags that he is a "beast" and a "ninja" in one of his cute interviews from about 2 1/2 years ago.
http://youtu.be/kF7WULOuRPk

A few more thoughts from the leader of the pro-Bieber faction on this thread. First, you can say that his success is too bad because so many others equally or more talented are not given a chance. You can also say that his success gives hope to many, because he rose to fame as we all can do via you tube. This is what he tells his fans too. Some of his songs are "motivational" (Never Say Never, Pray, Born to Be Somebody...), and he says that's a reason for what he does. He is a great role model so far. He gives back too, in donations and fundraisers. Bono and Sting were greater (so far) in that respect, and although much of their music was as good or better than Bieber's, neither ever put out a better song than Pray (which so far I think is the best single record in a generation).

Originally Posted by Odin

What I find funny is that there are many vapid, cutesy, 60s teeny-bopper songs that are firmly a part of popular culture, like "My Girl", and yet my generation's teen-pop gets shat on.

I wouldn't classify "My Girl" as being vapid. However, there was plenty of junk hitting the charts back in the day. One of the silliest was a song that I like but is properly classified as junk -- "Hey There Little Red Riding Hood".

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree of course that there are other talented young musicians who aren't famous. Bieber is quite a talented drummer though, and for his age yes since he started at 2! And whoever wrote Pray (Bieber did) has to be considered an amazing songwriter. Check it out. He had help putting it all together of course; most songwriters do. There may be some other good pop songs around these days, but so far Pray is the best I've heard. I am looking around a bit, and my challenge on this thread still stands to name/link one. btw I could care less if Bieber has no talent for rapping. Rap is not music, and I am mainly interested in music.

I agree with all this. But if there are lots of "musical prodigies, 10 times more talented than Justin Bieber or any pop star," and they are on You Tube or My Space, I'd like to see the links. I don't know what you mean by "more technical forms of music." I'm interested in music of higher quality, more artistry, etc. I agree with the condition of pop music and its audience today, but I am glad at least one famous pop artist (Bieber) appears to be interested in what I am interested in.

I'm not even totally sure what autotune is, that would be a popular sound gimmick. If it is the electronic echo effects I hear, I like it. So far I like where Bieber is taking his music.

This post is in response to Cole who mentioned John Legend. Google some of the stuff John Legend and the Roots have been collaborating on and you will realize that Justin isn't the only next best thing since the awakening (i know you never said that, btw).

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes they are;

and Bieber "will not stay on the ground, whenever you knock him down," Never Say Never.

Eric...geez...why are you having me defend Bieber!!!! That was not on my agenda today. But yes, I agree with what you wrote as being an interpretation of his boxing photo shoot. It's just too easy to hate on him. I mean grown men were actually hating on a lil kid.

That said...the only bone I have to pick is your claim that he's the only pop singer that's done socially conscious music in the last 30 years.

Side bar, anyone notice his late 1940s/early 50s crooner look these days? Now if only Bruno Mars would do music that cars and this subject would be pointless.

Originally Posted by millennialX

This post is in response to Cole who mentioned John Legend. Google some of the stuff John Legend and the Roots have been collaborating on and you will realize that Justin isn't the only next best thing since the awakening (i know you never said that, btw).

What Millenial said. I've listened to all of The Roots material since Phrenology and about half the tracks from the albums before 2002. That John Legend/Roots collaboration is a perfect example of a mainstream album with conscious lyrics.

Originally Posted by Cole94

What Millenial said. I've listened to all of The Roots material since Phrenology and about half the tracks from the albums before 2002. That John Legend/Roots collaboration is a perfect example of a mainstream album with conscious lyrics.

I guess someone needs to introduce him to some old school Common, too.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Bono and Sting were greater (so far) in that respect, and although much of their music was as good or better than Bieber's, neither ever put out a better song than Pray (which so far I think is the best single record in a generation).

You're certainly entitled to your opinion - but this is absolute ludicrous bullshit. I'm sorry - but I have to call you on it. First off, Sting is a master storyteller. He tells an exciting and an interesting story in almost all of his songs. And, I can't think of a single solo song or song he did with The Police that is is not far better than anything Justin Bieber can do on his best day.

Second, U2 is THE best rock band of the 3T. Period. If you want to compare U2 to The Rolling Stones (the finest rock band of the 2T) or The Beatles (overrated in my opinion) you can be my guest. However, to compare U2 who has had a global impact for over 30+ years with a young pop singer who has been around maybe 5 years is just laughable.

Also: The comparison between The Police, U2, and Sting as a solo singer (for the most part) is erroneous. U2 and The Police were rock bands. Bieber is a pop singer. There is a distinction between rock music (putting far more importance on the skill of playing instruments - with band members who actually play the music) as opposed to bubblegum pop putting emphasis on dance beats and a lack of instrumentation or skill (outside of perhaps a decent singing voice). It's a non-comparison. Yes, U2 has fiddled with some pop in the past as a mocking of pop music itself. Their 1997 album "Pop" for example was an absolute mocking of the state of despair they saw around them with shallow and vapid pop music. It was a tongue-in-cheek album designed to attack the very nature of the industry - putting dance beats and disco-esque rhythm to lyrics like:

"Your catholic blues, your convent shoes
Your stick on tattoos, now they're making the news
Your holy war, your northern star
Your sermon on the mount from the boot of your car " - "Please" (U2, 1997).

In comparison to Sting at his best or U2 at their best, we have Bieber giving lyrics such as:

"And I was like baby, baby, baby, oh
Like baby, baby, baby, no
Like baby, baby, baby, oh
I thought you'd always be mine, mine" - "Baby", Justin Bieber

Seriously, you're going to compare this to the greatest rock band of the 3T in U2?

I'm sorry, but there's no comparison between U2 at their best (a band who almost always writes their own lyrics, by the way) or a pop singer like Justin Bieber except that maybe Bieber is a decent singer. But when U2 is at their absolute best, none save perhaps The Stones could come anywhere close to them in brilliance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftjEcrrf7r0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMdO3HK_ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_VHA0WsRUQ&ob=av2n

I realize there are many who dislike Bono as an individual (no more or less than Bieber) - but it's certainly not to diminish from U2's greatness as a band as being the greatest band of the 3T.

"The last of the rock stars,
when hip hop drove the big cars,
in the time of new media,
well what's the big idea?
What's the big idea?" - "Kite" (U2, 2000).

j.p.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree of course that there are other talented young musicians who aren't famous. Bieber is quite a talented drummer though, and for his age yes since he started at 2!

Since I play percussion/drum-set, I'm going to target this part of your post more heavily. Not to brag, but I can play the drums better than Justin Bieber. Maybe I'll post a video of myself drumming later on since words only carry so much weight.

This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A43QWT0-gw is the best drumming I've seen from Bieber so far. What he is playing: 8th notes on hi-hat, bass drum on beat 1 and the "&" of beat 3, and ghost notes between beats 2 and 4. This at 120 bpm, which is also the standard speed for that beat.

It's the basic bread and butter of the rock drumming world. This is literally one of the first beats that a drummer learns. In between the beats he is playing 16th note triplets for the drum fills. Triplets are one of the basic rudiments that you learn on drum pad and translate over to the drum-set. Out of the ten videos of Justin Bieber drumming I just looked at, I've only seen him play two beats, and that basic rock beat is one of the two. He has recently developed a better sense of keeping time, but any person who plays music regularly can tell that he only dabbles around in the drums.

I say this because if he played somewhat consistently since 2 years old, there would be no dispute right now over his skills by other musicians. He would be an excellent drummer no questions asked. I got to where he is after one summer playing the drum-set. But I also played snare drum and other percussion for 4 years prior and practiced 3-4 hours a day (back when I had free time lol). But again, his 15 years of playing should easily trump my 3 years.

Videos of other young drum prodigies

1. Tony Royster Jr. (Jay-Z's session drummer) at 12 years old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6T4OwacRL0

2. Jacob Armen 7yrs old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHOfMWxQRps

3. Drummer named Calvin Rodgers at 15/16 yrs old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsTZ...ij_AQp9tRIx0SA

4. Some little kid (nick)named Bam-Bam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEFtmfWE9lo

5. 17 year old applying Berklee School of Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCazef1NqcM

There is an absolutely massive difference in skill level between these kids and Justin Bieber. And once again, that's not to say he isn't talented, he just isn't proficient in drums. It's not that hard to gauge where he stands in the big scheme of drumming. He is average at best. About the same as someone finishing up their first year of lessons. For a live performance, in addition to who he has access to, his drumming should be much cleaner for what little he does play. I tell everyone in my percussion section that when we play easy music, it should flawless if it's so easy. A percussionist has to strive for rhythmical perfection. We are the heart, in a sense, when it comes to the body that is a band.

Originally Posted by millennialX

I guess someone needs to introduce him to some old school Common, too.

I used to love H.E.R., Respiration, etc. Good ish.

Cole94, that's not even taking into considering what other "musical skills" Bieber supposedly has. Specifically with singing, which he should be brilliant at considering it's what got him noticed in the first place.

I wouldn't even say he's an average singer for his age, he's less than average.

Eric is a typical Boomer, he thinks his tastes are the holy writ of Truth

This is exactly why you can't argue with a Boomer, they basically don't use facts when they argue. You can't have a debate without facts, it really just results in wanting to smash your head into a wall by the end of it.

Originally Posted by Felix5

Cole94, that's even taking into considering what other "musical skills" Bieber supposedly has. Specifically with singing, which he should be brilliant at considering it's what got him noticed in the first place.

I wouldn't even say he's an average singer for his age, he's less than average.

Like I said, every year in my school's chorus, there's someone who can sing better than Bieber. And you're right, his singing should be amazing since that's the core of what he does. His singing is just good for whatever voice and range he has, which isn't much when comparing him to more mature singers. I'm just around so many singers and musicians, I don't hear anything particularly brilliant about him that I haven't heard from others his age. I mean the only thing I can give him is that he's a performer who does a bunch of different things. The thing is, he doesn't do anything with a high degree of proficiency. I'd rather work on one skill and be amazing than split myself between 4 things and be mediocre.

And regarding his writing, Eric, I've listened to albums worth of "Pray"-type songs. And most of them are conscious (underground) rap albums. You can say that rap isn't music, but that's where you should go if you want to see socially conscious lyrics. In fact I'll post a few:

Uncommon Valor (A Vietnam Story) by Jedi Mind Tricks: It's a (true) story about a rapper's father in Vietnam, very heavy (warning: mature) lyrics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r0KpWMNxnM Lyrics are in the video.

Dear God 2.0 by The Roots ft. Monsters of Folk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqI6HivP2mI

Here's the first verse:

They said he’s busy hold the line please
Call me crazy, I thought maybe he could mind read, Who does the blind lead?
Show me a sign please, If everything is made in China, are we Chinese?
And why do haters separate us like we siamese?
Technology turning the planet into zombies
Everybody all in everybody’s dirty laundry
Acid rain, earthquakes, hurricane, tsunamis
Terrorists, crime sprees, assaults, and robberies
Cops yellin’ stop, freeze
Shoot him before he try to leave
Air quality so foul, I gotta try to breath
Endangered species, And we runnin’ out of trees
If I could hold the world in the palm of these
Hands, I would probably do away with these anomalies
Everybody checkin’ for the new award nominee
Wars and atrocities, Look at all the poverty
Ignoring the prophecies, More beef than broccoli
Corporate monopoly, Weak world economy
Stock market topplin’
Mad marijuana oxycotton and klonopin
Everybody out of it?

There's enough topics in this one verse for many songs. And I mean there are hundreds of songs like these that I've heard, mostly rap.