Like I said, every year in my school's chorus, there's someone who can sing better than Bieber. And you're right, his singing should be amazing since that's the core of what he does. His singing is just good for whatever voice and range he has, which isn't much when comparing him to more mature singers. I'm just around so many singers and musicians, I don't hear anything particularly brilliant about him that I haven't heard from others his age. I mean the only thing I can give him is that he's a performer who does a bunch of different things. The thing is, he doesn't do anything with a high degree of proficiency. I'd rather work on one skill and be amazing than split myself between 4 things and be mediocre.

'

Exactly, I used to sing when I was younger, probably about 14 years old. I had a mature voice for my age, even though I wasn't spectacularly amazing. I definitely had a better voice than Bieber has today. A lot of people have good-great singing voices (just in terms of vocal color, not even range-which really just comes with proper training over time) it's not that spectacular to find even a child singer with a good quality singing voice. I don't understand why people made a huge fuss over this kid.

You mentioned the performance aspect and I believe that's the only thing he really does ok. Even so, there have been better youth performers (and still are today with videos on youtube), again Billy Gilman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBg-4Ll1-Mg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I00eZ...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxFlhrPwgKU

Look at the way this kid moved on stage and interacts with the audience, he was only 11-13 here here....

I had a music teacher who taught in RI on occasion and I remember her showing us a video of Billy Gilman performing for a live audience in a play she directed. It wasn't his voice that blew me away, video tapes weren't very good for capturing sound, but his interactions with the audience that made me realize just what being an entertainer was all about.

So what exactly is so impressive about Justin Bieber even in that regard? I think youtube has this ability to make anyone a celebrity whether they're great or mediocre. For those who want to be famous, it's not that difficult in today's world compared to even 10-13 years ago when I was in middle school and kids like Billy Gilman were trying to break the mainstream. Back then you actually had to perform in front of people before you were noticed by anyone. That aspect of performing in front of large audiences just isn't necessary in order to be noticed by anyone. Just post a video of you singing on youtube and you're famous....how depressing..

As for "conscious songs" this kid had plenty of them and so have pop singers for the past 20-30 years, Eric just hasn't explored the pop genre enough. I believe they just did a remake of We Are the World.

Originally Posted by Cole94

And regarding his writing, Eric, I've listened to albums worth of "Pray"-type songs. And most of them are conscious (underground) rap albums. You can say that rap isn't music, but that's where you should go if you want to see socially conscious lyrics.

Yea, I was wondering if he would even think it's music (who knows). But here's the deal, if we are talking about songs worthy of taking up Marvin Gaye's, "What's Going On" mantle, I would start with some old school hip hop first.

Originally Posted by millennialX

Yea, I was wondering if he would even think it's music (who knows). But here's the deal, if we are talking about songs worthy of taking up Marvin Gaye's, "What's Going On" mantle, I would start with some old school hip hop first.

Wouldn't even be in the same school, let alone the same league with Justin OR Marvin. Unless maybe, again, you are only interested in the words. Preferably on the written page.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I wouldn't classify "My Girl" as being vapid. However, there was plenty of junk hitting the charts back in the day. One of the silliest was a song that I like but is properly classified as junk -- "Hey There Little Red Riding Hood".

You can do a lot worse, as far as 60s era pop goes, even than that one. Wooly Bully and 96 Tears were huge hits and complete vapid zilch.

Originally Posted by millennialX

Eric...geez...why are you having me defend Bieber!!!! That was not on my agenda today. But yes, I agree with what you wrote as being an interpretation of his boxing photo shoot. It's just too easy to hate on him. I mean grown men were actually hating on a lil kid.

That said...the only bone I have to pick is your claim that he's the only pop singer that's done socially conscious music in the last 30 years.

I CERTAINLY never said any such thing. In fact I mentioned Sting and Bono. No, what I said was that "Pray" is the best and most poignant song musically in the last 30 years or so. The lyrics help, but are almost incidental.

Side bar, anyone notice his late 1940s/early 50s crooner look these days? Now if only Bruno Mars would do music that cares and this subject would be pointless.

The Lazy Song is certainly something I can relate to. Not as good as Bieber's good songs though, I don't think. And most of Bieber's best songs are only above average at best. But even that probably beats most of pop from the 3T.

Originally Posted by JDFP

You're certainly entitled to your opinion - but this is absolute ludicrous bullshit. I'm sorry - but I have to call you on it. First off, Sting is a master storyteller. He tells an exciting and an interesting story in almost all of his songs. And, I can't think of a single solo song or song he did with The Police that is is not far better than anything Justin Bieber can do on his best day.

Yep, we disagree; Bieber did at least one song far better. Take the cotton out of your ears.

Second, U2 is THE best rock band of the 3T. Period. If you want to compare U2 to The Rolling Stones (the finest rock band of the 2T) or The Beatles (overrated in my opinion) you can be my guest. However, to compare U2 who has had a global impact for over 30+ years with a young pop singer who has been around maybe 5 years is just laughable.

It's true we can't really make an overall assessment of Bieber yet, as we can of U2 or Sting. I'm encouraged and I hope more artists follow his lead. Chris Brown apparently was inspired to make his best song (Next 2 You) because Bieber would be singing it with him. Certainly I have heard nothing else by him so far that remotely compares.

Also: The comparison between The Police, U2, and Sting as a solo singer (for the most part) is erroneous. U2 and The Police were rock bands. Bieber is a pop singer. There is a distinction between rock music (putting far more importance on the skill of playing instruments - with band members who actually play the music) as opposed to bubblegum pop putting emphasis on dance beats and a lack of instrumentation or skill (outside of perhaps a decent singing voice). It's a non-comparison. Yes, U2 has fiddled with some pop in the past as a mocking of pop music itself. Their 1997 album "Pop" for example was an absolute mocking of the state of despair they saw around them with shallow and vapid pop music. It was a tongue-in-cheek album designed to attack the very nature of the industry - putting dance beats and disco-esque rhythm to lyrics like:

"Your catholic blues, your convent shoes
Your stick on tattoos, now they're making the news
Your holy war, your northern star
Your sermon on the mount from the boot of your car " - "Please" (U2, 1997).

In comparison to Sting at his best or U2 at their best, we have Bieber giving lyrics such as:

"And I was like baby, baby, baby, oh
Like baby, baby, baby, no
Like baby, baby, baby, oh
I thought you'd always be mine, mine" - "Baby", Justin Bieber

Seriously, you're going to compare this to the greatest rock band of the 3T in U2?

You are only comparing lyrics (and even then, only perhaps his most notorious, and a rather simple song). Lyrics is only one small part of a song. How people can make that mistake is totally beyond me. People aren't even listening if they do that. I think most people have forgotten how to listen to music in the last 30 years, just as they have forgotten what democracy is and how to vote. What we have been getting, is what we deserve. America is nothing but ridiculous today, and we will pay for it if we don't turn a corner, and soon. I'm glad Bieber is on the right side in both respects, so far. Never Say Never (which he wrote the lyrics for) may not be brilliant stuff either, but it's getting there, and it's not "I'm like Baby Baby Baby Ooh." (and again, I do "like" the Baby song too, and so did the critics).

Rock and pop are different shades of the same thing, but I lump them together and say "Pray" beats anything in either genre for 30 years. I know it seems outlandish to say so, but why do you think I started this thread, except that, in fact, it does seem strange to say what I'm saying?

Strange, but true!

I'm sorry, but there's no comparison between U2 at their best (a band who almost always writes their own lyrics, by the way) or a pop singer like Justin Bieber...

I'm not knocking U2 overall; I think they were one of the best bands of the 3T, but that is not saying too much.

Originally Posted by Cole94

Since I play percussion/drum-set, I'm going to target this part of your post more heavily....

I'm not sure I would know how to compare drum solos. I don't know who is better, and no doubt many are better than Bieber. I would just disagree that Bieber "is not talented" in that respect.

Originally Posted by Felix5

This is exactly why you can't argue with a Boomer, they basically don't use facts when they argue. You can't have a debate without facts, it really just results in wanting to smash your head into a wall by the end of it.

When you claimed facts about Bieber, you were wrong. When you posted opinions, there was nothing to argue with. You can't excuse any of that by mentioning that I'm a Boomer.

Originally Posted by Felix5

'

Exactly, I used to sing when I was younger, probably about 14 years old. I had a mature voice for my age, even though I wasn't spectacularly amazing. I definitely had a better voice than Bieber has today. A lot of people have good-great singing voices (just in terms of vocal color, not even range-which really just comes with proper training over time) it's not that spectacular to find even a child singer with a good quality singing voice. I don't understand why people made a huge fuss over this kid.

It may be hard to understand the fuss, but you can't really deny it. I think he's something special. He has now earned his popularity.

You mentioned the performance aspect and I believe that's the only thing he really does ok. Even so, there have been better youth performers (and still are today with videos on youtube), again Billy Gilman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBg-4Ll1-Mg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I00eZ...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxFlhrPwgKU

Look at the way this kid moved on stage and interacts with the audience, he was only 11-13 here here....

I had a music teacher who taught in RI on occasion and I remember her showing us a video of Billy Gilman performing for a live audience in a play she directed. It wasn't his voice that blew me away, video tapes weren't very good for capturing sound, but his interactions with the audience that made me realize just what being an entertainer was all about.

So what exactly is so impressive about Justin Bieber even in that regard? I think youtube has this ability to make anyone a celebrity whether they're great or mediocre. For those who want to be famous, it's not that difficult in today's world compared to even 10-13 years ago when I was in middle school and kids like Billy Gilman were trying to break the mainstream. Back then you actually had to perform in front of people before you were noticed by anyone. That aspect of performing in front of large audiences just isn't necessary in order to be noticed by anyone. Just post a video of you singing on youtube and you're famous....how depressing..

As for "conscious songs" this kid had plenty of them and so have pop singers for the past 20-30 years, Eric just hasn't explored the pop genre enough. I believe they just did a remake of We Are the World.

That was just posted here and I heard it.

He's talented for sure, Billy is, but somehow I and many others like Bieber better. Why? He does better songs, musically, and original ones (granted that he doesn't write all of them), and he's sweeter and sexier and more fun to watch, and he does a lot more on stage. I even like his voice better, even if Gilman's is more impressive. But maybe Bieber is opening a door for others..... I hope so.... I would hate it if he's the only one I end up liking in the 4T era.

this one done when he was 15 shows a lot of what I'm talking about.

I don't listen to Justin Bieber. He seems to be a type that is marketed to the preteens. My niece is crazy for him and she is 17 but she is also pretty immature. She posts so many fangirl pictures of him on Facebook I had to block because it was getting annoying. I don't understand the whole attraction physically, he looks like he's 14. I don't usually listen to pop music so haven't listened to him. However, I think he probably has some very catchy soulful songs to capture the attention of his audience. I have no idea why anyone would be interested in his mother. I think Mr. Bieber should concentrate on what he does best and talk about that in interviews rather than making socio-political commentary. Back when I was young the girls fawned over Donny Osmond, Shaun Cassidy, David Cassidy, Leif Garrett.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Clearly a photoshoot, not a real boxing match. If you see Never Say Never though, it's clear it's not out of character, and the fans would not really be shocked. He'd have to bulk up and train quite a bit to actually enter the ring, and of course he has no business actually doing it.

Yes. See "little head doing all of the thinking and not the big head".

On the other hand, he's a good athlete, and I don't think I would tangle with him, even though he could say about me "he's bigger than me, stronger than me, his arms are a bit longer than me" etc. He brags that he is a "beast" and a "ninja" in one of his cute interviews from about 2 1/2 years ago.
http://youtu.be/kF7WULOuRPk

::Nods:: Thank you for validating my point.

Of note, is that I do realize musical taste unto itself is subjective. This song has meaning to me.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Wouldn't even be in the same school, let alone the same league with Justin OR Marvin. Unless maybe, again, you are only interested in the words. Preferably on the written page.

It's okay to agree to REALLY disagree on this.

Originally Posted by millennialX

It's okay to agree to REALLY disagree on this.

Yes, you can have rap. Not interested, although Justin makes good use of rappers in some of his songs. Generally speaking tho, I prefer music thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Of note, is that I do realize musical taste unto itself is subjective. This song has meaning to me.

I didn't get very far; I don't like that type of music. At least not since the 70s when it had some artistry.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I didn't get very far; I don't like that type of music.

Yes, that was what I surmised. I searched my memory banks for something I figured to be the exact opposite of Bieber.

I'll retro a bit with this. Now here we have a bad jam that got me past the Disco era. Here, I don't know if you'll like this one or not.

At least not since the 70s when it had some artistry.

1. It has visual artistry. I like flashing lights and fires.
2."greed has been crowned king" and other lyrics are what provide "Wild Side" , meaning.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Yes, that was what I surmised. I searched my memory banks for something I figured to be the exact opposite of Bieber.

I'll retro a bit with this. Now here we have a bad jam that got me past the Disco era. Here, I don't know if you'll like this one or not.

Retro to the 2T. Yes, I like Free, and it's a fine song.

1. It has visual artistry. I like flashing lights and fires.
2."greed has been crowned king" and other lyrics are what provide "Wild Side" , meaning.

If the lyrics are good, I can read them. I can do without the associated noise or flashing lights.

Regarding the words to Baby, I think it's cute that Justin says "like." It puts his generation's vernacular into the song.

Have you been annoyed at young people who say "like" in every sentence? I have. But the Baby song has given me an appreciation of it. Words are only metaphors, and we forget that. Words are not exact, only indicators. That is an important point stressed by many philosophers. Young people saying "like" means they have understood this at a basic level. You say "like" this or that, you mean that "it's like this" and "whatever I say after "like" is only a metaphor." Don't take things too literally. That is releasing of a lot of judgement and rigid thinking. So maybe saying "like" is OK!

(on the other side of the coin, maybe it excuses some young people from using the most precise word possible and being sloppy with words)

And I even clicked "like" on the you tube video, the most-viewed video of all time. For 13 year-old girls of today, this song brings back something that youth of my generation enjoyed with the early Beatles or the girl groups. And I especially like the "yeah yeah yeah" at the end. She Loves You is a favorite of mine, and I like it much better than Baby, but I probably like Baby better than "Do Ron Ron." The words are simple, but these rock/pop songs have rhythm and tunefulness and some nice singing and mild sex appeal. That has been largely missing from an era dominated by grungy, bland, noisy, cynical stuff of various and sundry kinds. And I like the way Baby brings in pieces of various rock and pop genres from the 50s to today.

If you haven't seen this yet, enjoy!

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Yes. See "little head doing all of the thinking and not the big head".

Sometimes that's a great thing!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Sometimes that's a great thing!

in reply to

Originally Posted by rags

Yes. See "little head doing all of the thinking and not the big head".

I don't think so. Just ask John Edwards
Oh, and we Taureans are stubborn!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Regarding the words to Baby, I think it's cute that Justin says "like." It puts his generation's vernacular into the song.

If I'd heard Justin before, I haven't known it. Listened to Baby. Was pleased that the accompaniment was in the background, that you could understand the lyrics. The arrangement was fairly simple, but worked.

He reminded me of Davy Jones, the Monkee who recently died. Young girls need cute boys to have crushes on. I wasn't greatly impressed by the voice, but wasn't sure how one could tell. Modern singers are often over produced, with electronic filters adding effects like 'reverb' and 'chorus' to the point where someone with poor tone could have their voice massaged to a point of respectability. The video? It told a story that made more sense than a typical Monkee romp scene.

I can't say modern tweeny boppers have any more or less taste than my sisters did way back when.

It may be hard to understand the fuss, but you can't really deny it. I think he's something special. He has now earned his popularity.

I don't believe I was replying to you.

That was just posted here and I heard it.

He's talented for sure, Billy is, but somehow I and many others like Bieber better. Why? He does better songs, musically, and original ones (granted that he doesn't write all of them),

If you can explain this musically, with a music theory analysis, I might actually take this comment into consideration. So go do that and then we'll talk.

and he's sweeter and sexier

UM....you're a full grown adult....

Your Justin Bieber obsession is now reaching creepy levels

and more fun to watch, and he does a lot more on stage. I even like his voice better, even if Gilman's is more impressive. But maybe Bieber is opening a door for others..... I hope so.... I would hate it if he's the only one I end up liking in the 4T era.

this one done when he was 15 shows a lot of what I'm talking about.

Again I don't believe I was replying to YOU, but there's nothing impressive about Justin Bieber to me as a pop singer, songwriter, or performer.

Originally Posted by Felix5

If you can explain this musically, with a music theory analysis, I might actually take this comment into consideration. So go do that and then we'll talk.

Well I guess we won't talk then, because IMO "music theory analysis" has not a thing to do with whether a piece of music is good or not. But I noticed Gilman was singing mere boring old country-western and rockabilly tunes, and Bieber is singing mostly new songs that he wrote or others wrote for him.

Uh yourself. Adults have no interest in sweetness or sexiness, even to notice which singer has more? And I don't plan on buying fan magazines for example, or going to his concert and screaming.

Originally Posted by B Butler

If I'd heard Justin before, I haven't known it. Listened to Baby. Was pleased that the accompaniment was in the background, that you could understand the lyrics. The arrangement was fairly simple, but worked.

He reminded me of Davy Jones, the Monkee who recently died. Young girls need cute boys to have crushes on. I wasn't greatly impressed by the voice, but wasn't sure how one could tell. Modern singers are often over produced, with electronic filters adding effects like 'reverb' and 'chorus' to the point where someone with poor tone could have their voice massaged to a point of respectability. The video? It told a story that made more sense than a typical Monkee romp scene.

I can't say modern tweeny boppers have any more or less taste than my sisters did way back when.

Thank you for an honest and unprejudiced account. And now listen to and watch Pray and see if there's even a bit more to like.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Regarding the words to Baby, I think it's cute that Justin says "like." It puts his generation's vernacular into the song.

Good grief. That's part of Valspeak. . So it puts Valspeak into the song. I do Valspeak "like this is totally radical, man."

Have you been annoyed at young people who say "like" in every sentence? I have. But the Baby song has given me an appreciation of it.

No. See above.

Words are only metaphors, and we forget that. Words are not exact, only indicators. That is an important point stressed by many philosophers. Young people saying "like" means they have understood this at a basic level. You say "like" this or that, you mean that "it's like this" and "whatever I say after "like" is only a metaphor." Don't take things too literally. That is releasing of a lot of judgement and rigid thinking. So maybe saying "like" is OK!

Yes, this is very refreshing. Eric has acquired a taste for Valspeak. Ummm,,, like what took you so long?

(on the other side of the coin, maybe it excuses some young people from using the most precise word possible and being sloppy with words)

Hmmm... OK, this is just too juicy to pass up. Bieber's songs suck.

And I even clicked "like" on the you tube video, the most-viewed video of all time.

I picked "dislike". I then had to go to here to clear out all of that noise pollution that "Baby" link stuck in my brain.

For 13 year-old girls of today, this song brings back something that youth of my generation enjoyed with the early Beatles or the girl groups. And I especially like the "yeah yeah yeah" at the end. She Loves You is a favorite of mine, and I like it much better than Baby, but I probably like Baby better than "Do Ron Ron." The words are simple, but these rock/pop songs have rhythm and tunefulness and some nice singing and mild sex appeal. That has been largely missing from an era dominated by grungy, bland, noisy, cynical stuff of various and sundry kinds. And I like the way Baby brings in pieces of various rock and pop genres from the 50s to today.

If you haven't seen this yet, enjoy!

1. Thank God for 3 Dog Night,Alice Cooper, and KISS.
2. I won't click on the link directly above. I'm sure it's just as pleasant as inhaling fluorine

Well I guess we won't talk then, because IMO "music theory analysis" has not a thing to do with whether a piece of music is good or not.

It is if you're going to state that one musician is great, back this up with factual information or just accept that it's just an opinion. (it would be too much to ask for you to stop shoving it in everyone's face, but you could at least stop insisting it's factual)

But I noticed Gilman was singing mere boring old country-western and rockabilly tunes, and Bieber is singing mostly new songs that he wrote or others wrote for him.

.....He was a country singer...

Uh yourself. Adults have no interest in sweetness or sexiness, even to notice which singer has more? And I don't plan on buying fan magazines for example, or going to his concert and screaming.

Then why did you bring it up??