To me "talent" is something innate, you are born with talent. Skill is something one develops with practice.

So how does Justin Bieber have this? Let alone more talent than any other child/teen in the world...

The answers is that he actually doesn't have much of it, his singing is very average. Nothing your high school choir wouldn't provide. Even his performing skills aren't terribly great.

Originally Posted by Felix5

So how does Justin Bieber have this? Let alone more talent than any other child/teen in the world...

The answers is that he actually doesn't have much of it, his singing is very average. Nothing your high school choir wouldn't provide. Even his performing skills aren't terribly great.

I think you need to listen a few more times to his songs, especially that one.

Otherwise, you are just repeating yourself, and to disagree would just be me repeating myself.

I can repeat my reply that if you want to know why Bieber was hired, and not necessarily others you might think deserving, listen again to the testimony of those who hired him. That is available on the Oprah link I posted.

If he has less talent, why are his songs better than other (current) pop songs? Even if he is not entirely responsible for them, he is partly responsible. The more I watch and listen to him, and to other current pop artists, the more my opinion is confirmed. I can't say for sure, but so far it appears that he is actually the best on the current scene (yes, sure; I would not disagree that older artists like Nilssen and U2 were better....).

And one thing I don't do, is evaluate songs or artists in pieces (as Cole was doing). Music strikes me and I enjoy it as a whole. And ultimately the value of a piece or a song has nothing to do with who or how many different people created it.

There is no reason for Felix or anyone to resent an artist who is more popular than others who are more talented. That is the way of the capitalist world, and Bieber is nothing whatever new in that regard at all, not even in the slightest. So why resent Bieber because of the way society is?

"Why" I like Pray by Justin Bieber. There is no such thing as "proving" it's a great song. The best I can do is describe.

It has an amazing set of melody lines, probably more melodies than most other songs. These alternate between long lines of soaring grandeur, and peppy, spirited lines up to 4 times faster; and sometimes these elements are combined in one line. The grand melody lines include the opening one "I just can't sleep tonight", which starts at the dominant in F#, to C#, D#, tonic B, C#, B., and the chorus line "I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" which Bieber performs a variety of different ways, and with informal bravado and swing; and of course the astonishing, very dramatic "bridge section" of 4 lines starting with "I pray for the broken hearted," which starts on an extended "pray" on the mixolidian tone of A natural. Throughout the piece, the melody lines are accompanied by a lively piano part, another slower piano part (which he often plays live), violins, drums, synths, and brilliant backing vocals which are said to have a gospel flavor. Some of these vocal parts are brilliant counterpoint. Bieber adds subtle trills and inflections that add beauty to the melody lines. His vocals are especially poignant and moving in the second half of the piece and give it a very powerful emotional punch, and toward the end the beauty of feeling rises to astonishing levels.

I would like the song for its musical qualities alone, but you can't really divorce these from the words. The song is a great organic whole. Some people might object that the song is too religious, and that prayer doesn't work. But from my point of view, it does work, and so does the kind of visualization that Bieber makes the centerpiece of the song. And the quote from Mother Teresa at the end of the video says a lot about what prayer is, which most people don't really know. And Bieber's own activities shown in the video and elsewhere show that he does more than pray, but tries to "make a difference" through visits to encourage others and by raising and giving donations. I appreciate that he has "got a vision" and inspires his young fans and all of us to have one too. The song reminds us that we don't live apart from the sufferings of others, and that we need to "give people a break" where we can. A lot of people in America don't do that very much today. The signs advocating Obamacare say a lot in this regard too.

Now sometimes, after listening to Bieber too much, an adult singer is a bit of a relief. He does sing largely like a teenager on this record, in the midst of his voice change too, and some people like it better when brilliant young singers can "sing like an adult." But at most other times, I like and admire the authentic, soulful teenage sound of his voice, and how it is able to rise above itself to this level of poignant humanitarianism.

If you haven't listened to Pray, as I think most who have commented here have not, you really can't say anything correctly about Bieber. I like his most popular (and most hated) song "Baby," partly because it reminds me of my old Motown and Beatles favorites like Baby Love and She Loves You, but it's nowhere near as good as those, and it is an easy target for Bieber skeptics and haters for its bubblegum qualities. But I can say that I have sampled a number of Bieber songs by now, and I like almost all of them. Contrast that with Rihanna, John Legend, Miley Cyrus, Chris Brown, Usher, Kesha, or whoever; there is no comparison. At best I might like one or two of their songs. Other pop songs today tend to maybe have nice romantic words, but there's little feeling or energy in the music. It's as if the pop world thinks melody and rhythm are passe. Or else they are nothing but party, sex, and rap.

Pray was primarily written by Bieber, but he had a lot of help from "The Messengers," a writer/producer duo that figure in others of his best songs (e.g. Mistletoe), and in Next 2 You by Chris Brown feat. Bieber.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

"Why" I like Pray by Justin Bieber. There is no such thing as "proving" it's a great song. The best I can do is describe.

Now sometimes, after listening to Bieber too much, an adult singer is a bit of a relief. He does sing largely like a teenager on this record, in the midst of his voice change too, and some people like it better when brilliant young singers can "sing like an adult." But at most other times, I like and admire the authentic, soulful teenage sound of his voice, and how it is able to rise above itself to this level of poignant humanitarianism.

If you haven't listened to Pray, as I think most who have commented here have not, you really can't say anything correctly about Bieber. I like his most popular (and most hated) song "Baby," partly because it reminds me of my old Motown and Beatles favorites like Baby Love and She Loves You, but it's nowhere near as good as those, and it is an easy target for Bieber skeptics and haters for its bubblegum qualities. But I can say that I have sampled a number of Bieber songs by now, and I like almost all of them. Contrast that with Rihanna, John Legend, Miley Cyrus, Chris

Pray was primarily written by Bieber, but he had a lot of help from "The Messengers," a writer/producer duo that figure in others of his best songs (e.g. Mistletoe), and in Next 2 You by Chris Brown feat. Bieber.

Ehh. To each his/her own. I sometimes listen to music which sounds like I feel.

Rags feels relaxed/good Reminder of family reunions.

Rags is in a pissy mood due to crap at work or a while ago, some traffic jam on I-10. Houston's excuse for "mass transit" sucked!

Oh, and Eric should know what Rag's birthday is now, so he can do New Age Woo-Woo with some astro chart.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Ehh. To each his/her own. I sometimes listen to music which sounds like I feel.

Rags feels relaxed/good Reminder of family reunions.

Rags is in a pissy mood due to crap at work or a while ago, some traffic jam on I-10. Houston's excuse for "mass transit" sucked!

Oh, and Eric should know what Rag's birthday is now, so he can do New Age Woo-Woo with some astro chart.

Your post did not specify that you listened to Pray. I'll watch yours when you watch mine.

Oh, and no astro freebees here either until you give The Bieb a chance.

Oh, and great music always sounds good; whatever your mood, it always improves it.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Your post did not specify that you listened to Pray. I'll watch yours when you watch mine.

Done. At least I didn't have to navigate off youtube on "Pray", like "Never Say Never". I.E. I allowed it to play through.

Oh, and no astro freebees here either until you give The Bieb a chance.

:: Dangles juicy morsels for Eric:: I have the lat/long and exact time of birth! Think of it as an experimental data point wrt New Age Woo Woo being accurate or not.

Oh, and great music always sounds good; whatever your mood, it always improves it.

I think the music to match the mood is an INTP thing. Otherwise I get cognitive dissonance. Improves mood? Most likely, since music is an instrument to tease out that damned inferior feeling function.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Done. At least I didn't have to navigate off youtube on "Pray", like "Never Say Never". I.E. I allowed it to play through.

Well, isn't "Pray" a bit better than you might have expected from Bieber? (a juicy morsel I would call it!)

:: Dangles juicy morsels for Eric:: I have the lat/long and exact time of birth! Think of it as an experimental data point wrt New Age Woo Woo being accurate or not.

Sorry, readings are a professional service for which I charge moolah!

I think the music to match the mood is an INTP thing. Otherwise I get cognitive dissonance. Improves mood? Most likely, since music is an instrument to tease out that damned inferior feeling function.

I being an INTP as well, I doubt your thought is accurate. But yes.

My reactions to the songs you posted should not be too surprising. Carry On is already on my all-time top 400 rock list. Heavy metal stuff does not interest me, including that one.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Well, isn't "Pray" a bit better than you might have expected from Bieber? (a juicy morsel I would call it!)

Well it was better than "Never Say Never". If the songs were food, then "Never Say Never" would be moldy bread , possibly toxic. "Pray" is more like an MRE. MRE's aren't real "food", though they have their place, say on the battlefield. The songs, I selected are crab legs, dipped in butter or lightly cooked broccoli.

Originally Posted by Eric

Sorry, readings are a professional service for which I charge moolah!

And

Originally Posted by eric

Oh, and no astro freebees here either until you give The Bieb a chance.

Uh, two mutually exclusive preconditions. The latter statement contradicts the first statement. Or it could be that I showed you some of my "cards" and you folded.

I being an INTP as well, I doubt your thought is accurate. But yes.

"The mystery of emotion is also evidence in the INTP's use of music. He always chooses to listen to music which suits his current emotional state, be it aggression, warmth, excitement, relaxation or whatever. Hence, the emotional state is assumed to be an unchangeable, mysterious property of himself. It is easier to choose appropriate music than to attempt to influence this. People with introverted Feeling, Fi, however, will deliberately choose to listen to music which helps them change and improve their mood. INTPs could never do that. They feel an unpleasant sense of disharmony whenever a music style clashes with their emotional state. Indeed, it is remarkable how much attention they pay to their emotions when music is involved." - http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

My reactions to the songs you posted should not be too surprising. Carry On is already on my all-time top 400 rock list. Heavy metal stuff does not interest me, including that one.

You are correct. My guess is that you never know what sort of stuff I pick as "good music".

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Well it was better than "Never Say Never". If the songs were food, then "Never Say Never" would be moldy bread , possibly toxic. "Pray" is more like an MRE. MRE's aren't real "food", though they have their place, say on the battlefield. The songs, I selected are crab legs, dipped in butter or lightly cooked broccoli.

Well, I'll take the moldy bread and the MRE over your second link.

I don't know what your problem is with Never Say Never; it's a fine song with a great message. But, I imagine people who don't like teenage pop star singers have a problem with Bieber songs. I think Bieber is SO much better than those he is often compared with, like Donny Osmond and David Cassidy; and better than Michael Jackson too.

"The mystery of emotion is also evidence in the INTP's use of music. He always chooses to listen to music which suits his current emotional state, be it aggression, warmth, excitement, relaxation or whatever. Hence, the emotional state is assumed to be an unchangeable, mysterious property of himself. It is easier to choose appropriate music than to attempt to influence this. People with introverted Feeling, Fi, however, will deliberately choose to listen to music which helps them change and improve their mood. INTPs could never do that. They feel an unpleasant sense of disharmony whenever a music style clashes with their emotional state. Indeed, it is remarkable how much attention they pay to their emotions when music is involved." - http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

Well, if that's what some experts say; but I don't put too much stock in the hierarchy of introverted/extraverted functions. They draw far too many conclusions from this system.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Well, I'll take the moldy bread and the MRE over your second link.

Ditto for me on "Never Say Never".

I don't know what your problem is with Never Say Never; it's a fine song with a great message. But, I imagine people who don't like teenage pop star singers have a problem with Bieber songs. I think Bieber is SO much better than those he is often compared with, like Donny Osmond and David Cassidy; and better than Michael Jackson too.

It's simple. I just don't like that song's construction. Country music is the same way. I don't like that genre because it sounds "twangy". "Twangy" sounds off key even though I know it really isn't. Another way of looking at is the culture war thread. You've posted there and find value in the subject matter. I don't, because to me, it's basically a yart (yet another religious thread). Those go nowhere, so for me, it's a "why bother"? If JPT is over there, then I'm sure he's driving people up the wall which causes even more heat than light.

Well, if that's what some experts say; but I don't put too much stock in the hierarchy of introverted/extraverted functions. They draw far too many conclusions from this system.

Well, I did provide source material. My MBTI interpreter did state the hierarchy is a simple way that did make sense to me. He's an ENTP. As I think you know it goes something like this
1. Ti driver in the car
2. Ne passenger in the car
3. Si child in the back seat
4. Fe infant in the back seat.
[/quote]
I think it's time to agree to disagree on this. I'm sure this topic will go nowhere, since we've both made up our minds.

I do think there is one contradiction in this thread that needs a hash out:

"Sorry, readings are a professional service for which I charge moolah!" or "Oh, and no astro freebees here either until you give The Bieb a chance."
"I charge moolah" is the exact opposite of "astro freebees". Yes, there is a condition you imposed on "astro freebees", namely "give The Bieb" a chance". I duly fullfilled" said precondition by listening to your "Pray" link all of the way through. I think it's also telling that you just ignored this in your prior post.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Ditto for me on "Never Say Never".



It's simple. I just don't like that song's construction. Country music is the same way. I don't like that genre because it sounds "twangy". "Twangy" sounds off key even though I know it really isn't. Another way of looking at is the culture war thread. You've posted there and find value in the subject matter. I don't, because to me, it's basically a yart (yet another religious thread). Those go nowhere, so for me, it's a "why bother"? If JPT is over there, then I'm sure he's driving people up the wall which causes even more heat than light.

Yes I generally avoid that thread. Yeah, I like that song's construction; it's very coherent, and I appreciate the motivational lift it gives very much!

Well, I did provide source material. My MBTI interpreter did state the hierarchy is a simple way that did make sense to me....

Yes, you did provide the source for your views; very good. Personally I don't think the hierarchy makes logical sense overall. I wrote my views up on my webpage. http://philosopherswheel.com/mbti.html
That is, if you're really interested in my views on that subject.

I do think there is one contradiction in this thread that needs a hash out:

"Sorry, readings are a professional service for which I charge moolah!" or "Oh, and no astro freebees here either until you give The Bieb a chance."
"I charge moolah" is the exact opposite of "astro freebees". Yes, there is a condition you imposed on "astro freebees", namely "give The Bieb" a chance". I duly fullfilled" said precondition by listening to your "Pray" link all of the way through. I think it's also telling that you just ignored this in your prior post.

Sorry for my logical error. But no, I don't read charts for free; even if I gave you a "Pray" ploy on this thread.

Another discovery of rare talent among the 1994 cohort, or maybe 1993; he's about Justin Bieber's age, and also small for his age. I had the pleasure of hearing him perform as soloist tonight the Elgar cello concerto (concidentally I'm playing Nimrod by Elgar tomorrow on organ). Here's an article on him from 10 years ago.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...g=cellokid15m0

For those who said Justin should sing more like an adult, here he is a year or two later singing two of his most "motivational" and significant songs.

A great song written by award-winning songwriter Diane Warren:
http://youtu.be/2xnbM8Ihmlk

His best song live, Dec.2011:
http://youtu.be/poWUeGz6m_c
in B FLAT this time!

These days there's a lot of people posting videos under Bieber's name trying to get views. This is a great new song, but it's not clear yet whether it is on the new Believe album or not. Some doubt that it's Bieber, but this is Bieber quality work. I think it's pretty hot:
http://youtu.be/xLqUwhBTC8Q

His late 2011 Christmas album is good, and this is my favorite from it; an original song by Bieber and Brandon Hamilton, produced by Bieber.
http://youtu.be/Vk0r_mq4O6Q

Bieber and his teams combine the rhythm and energy of party dance rock, in a lighter palette, with romantic pop ballads (that are usually boring when done by others), and whipped up into a fever-intoxicating brew with artistry. For those like me that like the old 60s sunshine pop, Bieber is a good addition to the pop tradition.

Indulging my case of Bieber fever a bit more:

He is not only a "phenomenon in the history of show business" as David Letterman said, given the size and enthusiasm of his fan base, BUT what is ALSO remarkable is the fact that, unlike many pop sensations these days, HE DESERVES IT.

You can hear it in the links above and in well over a dozen excellent songs, but this one I post again as an illustration of what I said on the Materialism thread. This is a more soulful and heartfelt performance I can remember of any song, let alone by a 16-year old. It's true, I may be forgetting now about another such performance, but it is remarkable. Watch how he enhances his performance by actually putting his hand on his heart. That's more than some kind of stage move.


http://youtu.be/bFbFgkIEGNA

Second IMO to "Pray" as a Bieber song is One Less Lonely Girl, also known as OLLG
(although the Christmas song above is gaining on it....)

The "heart move" is even more visible in this one:
http://youtu.be/xwaFjRVkBHg

Some more Justin Bieber synchronicity today. I am precinct inspector for my local precinct in the election tomorrow. We were setting up in the cafeteria of the school near my house, but had to contend with kids rehearsing on the stage next to us for a talent show on Wednesday. It was distracting, but after a while, 4 girls began singing and dancing "Baby, Baby, Baby Ooh" complete with recorded soundtrack. They weren't as good as Bieber or Felix's school choir, but it made me smile. They didn't do the rap part though. "No rap," the teacher told me.

Another Justin Bieber?

Cody Simpson

http://youtu.be/ZAHDtzeC_AU iYiYi (2010)

http://youtu.be/MYRNGeIJMiQ All Day (2011)

http://youtu.be/evTrDL7Hfvc Got it Good (2012)

http://youtu.be/QM6M-5Oe7Mc Crazy But True (2011)

I found him because some people say it's really Cody Simpson singing the Uh Oh song by Bieber (linked above). I don't think so, but his songs are a lot like that one; especially All Day, which is also just like a Bieber video. He also hangs out at the beach and surfs in many of his videos.

Cody fever, I dunno, but..... I like his songs... well, at least those 4 above....

So, a trend at work?

He's younger, born Jan.11, 1997 in Austrailia (2 days after my book was published btw, and when T4T was published-- powerful "stars" ), so he's only 15 now, and his voice changed earlier than JB. He moved to LA. Last year he hired Scooter Braun as his manager (Justin's manager). Like Bieber, he started on you tube, but does not seem to be trying to copy him, according to wikipedia. Or is he???

His early one iYiYi (eeYah eeYah eeYah) reminds me a lot of One Time and OLLG

You Tube mixing the two singers:
http://youtu.be/tWp-KkH6iw0

Justin Bieber or Cody Simpson?
http://youtu.be/wscyXqczNjA

Who do you like better?
http://youtu.be/K4hxgLN__1I

Who dances better?
http://youtu.be/QKNShamz-rE

In case I haven't driven the point home yet, here's more
Interview with Cody
http://youtu.be/1BE8azu05ZQ

Interview with Cody: "he opened a lot of doors for me"
http://youtu.be/Jmxw9IfSP0I

At this point tho, no question about who is better.....

JB.....

But remember what I said about Bieber opening up a new trend that others will follow. Obviously it's happening.

A fellow boomer friend of mine said he liked "Pray" but suggested I should be smitten with a singer my own age, like this lady

http://youtu.be/VnS6ZMDU0-o

I have to admit, pretty good, and a good foil to Pray.

But JB rules.....

Megan Nicole

did a nice job covering Pray http://youtu.be/SJ0v2t1s7do

as well as covering songs by Jepson, Mars, One Direction....

and has a beautiful original song called Beautiful

http://youtu.be/3Rvjfm5FYHM (15 million views, not bad)

She was "17 years old" as reported on a website as of August 2011. So, same age as the Bieb.

Millie pop revival!

Hey Eric:

I finally found a Justin Bieber song I can stand to listen to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=vN3Sqf8BiY8#!

The best part is that she can actually sing better than he can!

j.p.

Originally Posted by JDFP

Hey Eric:

I finally found a Justin Bieber song I can stand to listen to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=vN3Sqf8BiY8#!

The best part is that she can actually sing better than he can!

j.p.

No, she doesn't sing on tune!

This one might melt your heart, maybe just a little bit, you guys????

http://youtu.be/ifYPRTEvZ1s

Another nice version of this classic:

http://youtu.be/5FRRlgfgDl4

And another:

http://youtu.be/R2SXK3BgITg

Oooh, this one's nice too:

http://youtu.be/VvNGZ49m5FM

a lil' bieber:

http://youtu.be/MfYZspEtZW0

an amazing, beautiful song, and that's why I decided to sing it for you:

http://youtu.be/RzP1ANv4_Bg


Need I say, this song inspires people??

Originally Posted by JDFP

Hey Eric:

I finally found a Justin Bieber song I can stand to listen to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=vN3Sqf8BiY8#!

The best part is that she can actually sing better than he can!

j.p.

I'm sure JDFP would like these versions MUCH better than the Bieb's; after all, the singers are as old as Merle!

http://youtu.be/FgwB8I2zrdE

he is better than justin bieber


Now THAT's bringing the generations together!

Originally Posted by 95 and alive

Originally Posted by JDFP

Hey Eric:

I finally found a Justin Bieber song I can stand to listen to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=vN3Sqf8BiY8#!

Lol! Made my day! I love the ending! Priceless! .................................................. .................................

You love the ending? Well then, get your fill!!!

http://youtu.be/zWer_YvowzI

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I'm sure JDFP would like these versions MUCH better than the Bieb's; after all, the singers are as old as Merle!

http://youtu.be/FgwB8I2zrdE

he is better than justin bieber


Now THAT's bringing the generations together!

363 people clicked "like" to him being better than Bieber - I'd agree!

j.p.

Originally Posted by JDFP

363 people clicked "like" to him being better than Bieber - I'd agree!

j.p.

Well, that about sums up your taste.

That is a lot of likes on the comments. I haven't seen that many before. Did you "like" it?


Well, personally, I like this version better (youth, after all!)

http://youtu.be/jhKRipzWdbM

And this one:

http://youtu.be/KL7uGfXQ57k