Originally Posted by Cole94

(bottom link) I have to say, out of the other things I've heard from Bieber, that one isn't bad (ignoring the chipmunks squealing in the audience XD). But I figured out I can't stand anyone with the voice of a kid doing anything vocal, whether it's singing or rapping (Diggy Simmons, Run DMC's kid, his voice grates my nerves). I'm interested to find out what Bieber's fully matured voice will sound like, but I don't think he'll be a pop artist that I pay anymore attention to than anyone else.

And completely random, but I just started really listening to Frank Zappa. I can't believe I never listened to him before (since he was also a local guy), dude's a musical genius. Underground rock. Rock, jazz, funk, touches of R&B/soul, and classical all slammed together into one man's discography.

Good; at least someone checked out one of his new songs. Of course, if you don't want the kid screams, you can always click on the first link in my post (same song, from the album). Of course, he is your age, so that means you can't stand yourself singing?! I think his voice is already pretty mature, as you could tell from some other tracks on the album (linked above of course); and since you like "touches of R&B/soul," and that's what Bieber does, you might end up paying more attention than you think; certainly he has already created or performed more good pop songs than anyone else today (even though most in an immature singing voice), so I think he'll be around a good while. He is "a very wise 18 year old." No question, for millies like you (unlike for us boomers growing up) there is a treasure of older rock and non-classical music to explore. It is so great that pop is getting better, but no question that it still has a ways to go before it stacks up against the rock of Zappa's era.

This (Believe) album converted me from "a hater" to fan.
TheAmirr95 1 day ago (91 thumbs up)

Justin, you need new haters. Your old ones are starting to like you!<3
BiebsForever95 8 hours ago 37

http://youtu.be/FsNZdlV64jU
Be Alright may now be my 2nd favorite Bieber song, and well might have made my Top 400!


Here JB makes his own celebrity scandal into a good song. Turns dirt into gold:
http://youtu.be/aTRQ2vXMv2U

No doubt Billie Jean is the precursor for Maria. But it's different, too. But I don't know if MJ experienced an actual scandal like this.

This song is a better precursor to Pray than Man in the Mirror:
Heal the World

Pray takes it to another level.

Of course, if you just react to a 16-year old voice, you're missing the classic-level melody and musical counterpoint in this piece, not to mention the passionate poignancy and the message and so much more.

We need to set up a donation fund to give Eric front row tickets to a Justin Bieber concert

Eric, if anyone would know the answer to this, you would.

I heard Justin Beiber has more Twitter followers than any other celebrity. But a lot of those followers are haters. He sure seems to generate strong reactions. Why do you think that is? What does he represent? (For the record, I am neither a fan or hater--but his following is huge and intense and I wonder why).

That being said, I hate Twitter with the white hot fire of 1000 burning suns. I think it's stupid to be forced to circumscribe your thoughts to 140 characters and as such any "conversation" more than a millimeter deep is impossible. I will never have a Twitter account and don't understand why it's so popular.

Originally Posted by sbrombacher

Eric, if anyone would know the answer to this, you would.

I heard Justin Beiber has more Twitter followers than any other celebrity. But a lot of those followers are haters. He sure seems to generate strong reactions. Why do you think that is? What does he represent? (For the record, I am neither a fan or hater--but his following is huge and intense and I wonder why).

That being said, I hate Twitter with the white hot fire of 1000 burning suns. I think it's stupid to be forced to circumscribe your thoughts to 140 characters and as such any "conversation" more than a millimeter deep is impossible. I will never have a Twitter account and don't understand why it's so popular.

IMO it's the typical dichotomy between conformist fanboyism and reactive "if it's popular it must suck" elitism. Bieber is symbolic of that dichotomy.

Originally Posted by Traveler89

We need to set up a donation fund to give Eric front row tickets to a Justin Bieber concert

No, I think I would pay the money to you guys so YOU could go and appreciate his music! ha ha
Seriously, I wouldn't go, I couldn't hear him above the screams! Not really my crowd

But he has a lot of fans for one simple reason: his music is good. And that's a rare thing for millennials to experience. But (I think) mostly due to prejudice, millennials (and mostly girls at that) are just about the only ones who can hear it. His new album is converting people rapidly though. It's a chance for you guys to redeem yourselves. Truly, everything's gonna be alright.

I don't think the twitter followers are haters; that's my impression from what he says. The haters mostly go to the Baby site, press the dislike button, and make stupid obscene comments. Or knock him on other peoples' videos. That's where I first heard of him, as I said. He also has about 47 million facebook fans. I don't follow tweeters, but I did "like" him on facebook recently and joined the 47 million. Owl City too. I am particular about which musicians I "like" on facebook.

(quote)
I recently spoke to someone who is in a dark place, they are clinically depressed. I asked them what music they liked and they said they didn't like Justin Bieber. I couldn't really help them that much because they were so sad. I then sent them a link to this song and told them to ignore who it was by. They listened to it on replay all night and they smiled. They now like Justin and I cannot describe how good it makes me feel that he can change someone's mood like that. P.S. No I'm not gay.
--MrTILM 2 days ago 113

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Seriously, I wouldn't go, I couldn't hear him above the screams! Not really my crowd

Are you sure they wouldn't have to listen above your screams? Lol ok ok ok I'll stop

But yeah I agree it's good to hear music with a positive message out there. I just always considered pop singers like that as more of a teenage girl thing. Nothing personal against him and no hate from me. Just disinterest.

Originally Posted by Traveler89

Are you sure they wouldn't have to listen above your screams? Lol ok ok ok I'll stop

OK, just in time! Owuuuu!

But yeah I agree it's good to hear music with a positive message out there. I just always considered pop singers like that as more of a teenage girl thing. Nothing personal against him and no hate from me. Just disinterest.

Maybe, time to change what you "always considered." That's a good thing to do sometimes.

As much as I dread entering this discussion, I have tried on numerous occasions to listen to JB. I tried hard to understand why he was so popular. I just can't get it at all. I don't find the music appealing in any sense. I tried placing myself in a Millie's shoes, listened to the music, and found myself liking it less and less, the longer I listened.

While Eric has found pleasure in listening to JB's music, he is not for everyone. That is fine. Not everyone likes all music. Eric likes JB. Others here, including me, do not. Rock on!

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

As much as I dread entering this discussion, I have tried on numerous occasions to listen to JB. I tried hard to understand why he was so popular. I just can't get it at all. I don't find the music appealing in any sense. I tried placing myself in a Millie's shoes, listened to the music, and found myself liking it less and less, the longer I listened.

While Eric has found pleasure in listening to JB's music, he is not for everyone. That is fine. Not everyone likes all music. Eric likes JB. Others here, including me, do not. Rock on!

OK, I will just assume that you listened to all the songs I recommended!

(how anyone could really listen to Pray and not like it, remains beyond my comprehension, but then, I don't comprehend everything (as Butler and Copperfield can attest) ).

It may be hard for some people to understand, and I in turn don't understand that too well; but the fact is, he is popular because he makes good music. That's all there is to it.

Eric, I have tried listening to entire albums of JB's music. I have listened to Pray more than once as well. I don't like that song either. It doesn't speak to me, or resonate with me in any way.

I understand that you like JB's music. As I posted earlier, I have no problem with that at all. You like JB. I do not. Our tastes differ, and there is nothing wrong with either point of view.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

Eric, I have tried listening to entire albums of JB's music. I have listened to Pray more than once as well. I don't like that song either. It doesn't speak to me, or resonate with me in any way.

I understand that you like JB's music. As I posted earlier, I have no problem with that at all. You like JB. I do not. Our tastes differ, and there is nothing wrong with either point of view.

Nothing wrong with it; just incomprehensible to me. "Tastes differ" is not a sufficient explanation for the fact.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Nothing wrong with it; just incomprehensible to me. "Tastes differ" is not a sufficient explanation for the fact.

I have no idea what would be sufficient then. I don't like what I hear. You do. What else is there to say?

Your liking of JB is not incomprehensible to me. I understand you like what you hear. The music speaks to you, and resonates with you. My experience is entirely different from yours. I did not like Pray despite repeated listenings. I can understand why others (including yourself) might like the song, but it was unlistenable for me.

Why would my dislike be incomprehensible to you? Is it not possible for you to, to use your word comprehend, that other people may have different experiences (since you don't accept "tastes") from yours?

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

Why would my dislike be incomprehensible to you? Is it not possible for you to, to use your word comprehend, that other people may have different experiences (since you don't accept "tastes") from yours?

Not really; it's the same song. I do comprehend that others have different interests, and different preconceptions and abilities that they bring to an experience of a song or piece of music. But at bottom, I still hear what I hear, and it is incomprehensible to me that others don't hear it.

Why do you think (or "can understand") that I might like Pray? Can you say in terms of the song itself, besides a general statement that "it resonates with me"?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Not really; it's the same song. I do comprehend that others have different interests, and different preconceptions and abilities that they bring to an experience of a song or piece of music. But at bottom, I still hear what I hear, and it is incomprehensible to me that others don't hear it.

Why do you think (or "can understand") that I might like Pray?

I think Pray plays to your very deep spirituality.

It doesn't speak to my sense of spirituality, or anything else for that matter, in any way. As I posted, I find the song unlistenable; as I find all of the body of work recorded by JB.

What interests me is why you seem to want to convert others to the JB cause. Why is that?

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

I think Pray plays to your very deep spirituality.

It primarily speaks to me musically. Would you be able to understand that (in terms of the elements of the song itself)?

It doesn't speak to my sense of spirituality, or anything else for that matter, in any way. As I posted, I find the song unlistenable; as I find all of the body of work recorded by JB.

What interests me is why you seem to want to convert others to the JB cause. Why is that?

I want to share with others what I have experienced. That's as far as it goes.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It primarily speaks to me musically. Would you be able to understand that (in terms of the elements of the song itself)?

That, for me, is the least comprehensible element of the song. I can see how you might like the structure, lyrics, and delivery. I find them simplistic, boring, unimaginative, and unlistenable.

I want to share with others what I have experienced. That's as far as it goes.

Well, you shared. You tried. Not all will be interested. I am one of the uninterested.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

That, for me, is the least comprehensible element of the song. I can see how you might like the structure, lyrics, and delivery. I find them simplistic, boring, unimaginative, and unlistenable.

Yes, the words in bold apply. For example, the powerful and beautiful simple-and-classic melody lines, and the detailed counterpoint and sonic richness toward the end, and the emotional punch (especially in the 2nd half of the song). But it's true; words cannot really convey this.

Well, you shared. You tried. Not all will be interested. I am one of the uninterested.

You may change your mind; it is possible. But it's not for me to try to argue the point.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes, the words in bold apply. For example, the powerful and beautiful simple-and-classic melody lines, and the detailed counterpoint and sonic richness toward the end, and the emotional punch (especially in the 2nd half of the song). But it's true; words cannot really convey this.

You see, I can comprehend others liking of things that I dislike myself. The very elements that I suspected you liked were actually quite accurate on my part. For me, however, those same elements that you treasured and enjoyed, had precisely the opposite effect.

I don't consider my own personal experience to somehow be universal.

You may change your mind; it is possible. But it's not for me to try to argue the point.

Not likely. If anything, my dislike will increase; and not decrease.

In any case, enjoy listening to JB. He and his music speak to you, and give you plesure. I think it's wonderful that you have found something special in his work.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

You see, I can comprehend others liking of things that I dislike myself. The very elements that I suspected you liked were actually quite accurate on my part. For me, however, those same elements that you treasured and enjoyed, had precisely the opposite effect.

I don't consider my own personal experience to somehow be universal.

I do; a song is a song (although there are personal differences, as I said).

Not likely. If anything, my dislike will increase; and not decrease.

That's your decision then.

In any case, enjoy listening to JB. He and his music speak to you, and give you plesure. I think it's wonderful that you have found something special in his work.

If I can find it, so can others; as they do. But not here on this site apparently! I wonder what that means. Maybe they just don't want to admit that Eric might be right.

But yes, I do enjoy it, and I am glad the for the first time in about 30 years I find some pop music I really like. I could even choose 22 current or recent songs and put them on a CD to play over and over. That would never have happened to me since the 1970s. So yes, I do enjoy that. And I think artists like Owl City, Carly Rae Jepsen and Justin Bieber are bringing new life into our culture. And so many more able to cover, imitate, aspire, create and share on you tube now, as JB did! Reason to celebrate indeed.

Maybe this is a question for another thread, but (if you're still there) what music resonates with you, whose structure and delivery you find exciting, imaginative, interesting, etc.?? How is it different from JB?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I do; a song is a song (although there are personal differences, as I said).

You do consider your own experiences universal? I never believed in that concept; and I still don't.

That's your decision then.

It's not so much a decision as the understanding that what JB provides offers nothing to me. I don't see that changing at all.

If I can find it, so can others; as they do. But not here on this site apparently! I wonder what that means. Maybe they just don't want to admit that Eric might be right.

Well, I don't know enough about you to know whether you are right, wrong, or par for the course. I just read here, comment occasionally, and return to reading. I have found your concepts of materialism and astrology fascinating reading, however.

But yes, I do enjoy it, and I am glad the for the first time in about 30 years I find some pop music I really like. I could even choose 22 current or recent songs and put them on a CD to play over and over. That would never have happened to me since the 1970s. So yes, I do enjoy that. And I think artists like Owl city, Carly Rae Jepsen and Justin Bieber are bringing new life into our culture. And so many more able to cover, imitate, aspire and share on you tube now, as JB did! Reason to celebrate indeed.

I am very happy that you have found music that you enjoy. Don't worry if I or others disagree with your discoveries. Your 30 year time span includes the 80s and 90s, which contained countless bands and songs that I play constantly. Obviously, none of them spoke to you. I can understand that as well. I am happy that you have found music that you enjoy. Feel free to ignore my selections, that I listened to yesterday and today, if they don't speak to you or resonate with you. I won't be offended at all.

Maybe this is a question for another thread, but (if you're still there) what music resonates with you, whose structure and delivery you find exciting, imaginative, interesting, etc.?? How is it different from JB?

Yesterday, I played Pearl Jam, Bruce Springsteen, The Church, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Pretenders, Pink Floyd, Queen, Tom Petty, Icehouse, and The Clash. Today may see something different. So far, it has been Nirvana, Stevie Nicks, Midnight Oil, and CCR.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

You do consider your own experiences universal? I never believed in that concept; and I still don't.

Yes I do, within the limits I described above. We are all part of one universal reality; not separate. So all our experiences have a universal element. We bring individuality to our experience, but the object has an objective element; so does music. So my own experiences are partly universal; not entirely.

It's not so much a decision as the understanding that what JB provides offers nothing to me. I don't see that changing at all.

You might be surprised; unless you just decide to hang on to your opinion.

Well, I don't know enough about you to know whether you are right, wrong, or par for the course. I just read here, comment occasionally, and return to reading. I have found your concepts of materialism and astrology fascinating reading, however.

That's good.

Yesterday, I played Pearl Jam, Bruce Springsteen, The Church, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Pretenders, Pink Floyd, Queen, Tom Petty, Icehouse, and The Clash. Today may see something different. So far, it has been Nirvana, Stevie Nicks, Midnight Oil, and CCR.

The 80s and 90s offered little to compare with before and after; although that doesn't mean there wasn't some music from that period that I somewhat liked (e.g. Queen), but not love. That applies to all your selections above, although I don't know Midnight Oil, Icehouse, or The Church. The early 80s were somewhat better than the later 80s. And I pretty much include the 00s in this mediocre judgement of mine as well. I have no clue as to how your choices differ from JB, unless it is the commonly-expressed prejudice here that they just don't like young singers that appeal to teenage girls. And perhaps JB is less within the rock genre than the others you like. He has said he might take it up someday though. With him, you really can say, "never say never."

This is a forum with a lot of intelligent, well educated people, whose musical tastes tend to run to the more obscure/less popular/more experimental or "arty" types of music. But this doesn't mean anyone should feel guilty if they happen to also like some commercial, popular music. I know MillieX, Odin, and Roadblder do. There are probably others. So Eric should not feel guilty about liking Justin Beiber (I never know if the i or the e comes first lol) nor should anyone try to make him feel guilty about liking him or even for having built his very own personal shrine to him here at T4T.

But what I can't understand is forcing your tastes on others. Musical tastes are very subjective. What's complete trash to one may be a symphony to someone else. A voice that sounds beautiful to one person may be unlistenable to someone else. We hear the same songs differently. Everyone's experiences are different and therefore a certain artist or genre of music may resonate more with them than with someone else. I also think ear structures vary, much as taste buds. I adore chocolate (the darker, the better), but there are people who dislike it! Sometimes you can accept that an artist is considered great without really understanding why. I, for one, never "got" the Beatles. They're alright and I'd never say they were horrible, but I always felt they were overrated. However, I can completely respect the many (most?) people who think they were musical geniuses (out of the four, I'd say George Harrison is the only true "genius"--I wouldn't even say that about John Lennon although I'd be stupid to say he wasn't a good songwriter).

Like Eric, I like a lot of commercial pop, pop-rock, and pop-country that many here would probably think is trash. But the important thing is if you enjoy the way some artists or their music sounds, even if they're not considered "good" by people with more refined tastes. Who cares what critics and snobs think? While I don't exactly feel guilty about liking Taylor Swift, The Band Perry, Foster the People, some Ke$ha, and even a few American Idol performances when I used to watch that show (Adam Lambert's version of Tears for Fears' "Mad World" was nothing short of brilliant), I still don't really like advertising this and am certainly not going to try to convince someone else here to like them by posting endless videos and telling them they just "aren't really listening" if it's not their cup of tea, like Eric does. I will respect your right to dislike what I like, and vice versa, as long as you respect my right to the same. I respect and even applaud Eric's liking for JB as long as he respects my right to not feel the same way (and yes, I have watched some of the videos posted here--his music just isn't my cup of tea).

Originally Posted by sbrombacher

This is a forum with a lot of intelligent, well educated people, whose musical tastes tend to run to the more obscure/less popular/more experimental or "arty" types of music. But this doesn't mean anyone should feel guilty if they happen to also like some commercial, popular music. I know both MillieX and Roadblder do. There are probably others. So Eric should not feel guilty about liking Justin Beiber (I never know if the i or the e comes first lol) nor should anyone try to make him feel guilty about liking him.

But what I can't understand is forcing your tastes on others. Musical tastes are very subjective. What's complete trash to one may be a symphony to someone else. We hear the same songs differently. Sometimes you can accept that an artist is considered great without really understanding why. I, for one, never "got" the Beatles. They're alright and I'd never say they were horrible, but I always felt they were overrated. However, I can completely respect the many (most?) people who think they were musical geniuses (out of the four, I'd say George Harrison is the only true "genius"--I wouldn't even say that about John Lennon although I'd be stupid to say he wasn't a good songwriter).

Like Eric, I like a lot of commercial pop, pop-rock, and pop-country that many here would probably think is trash. But the important thing is if you enjoy the way some artists or their music sounds, even if they're not considered "good" by people with more refined tastes. Who cares what critics and snobs think? While I don't exactly feel guilty about liking Taylor Swift, The Band Perry, Foster the People, some Ke$ha, and even a few American Idol performances when I used to watch that show (Adam Lambert's version of Tears for Fears' "Mad World" was nothing short of brilliant), I still don't really like advertising this and am certainly not going to try to convince someone else here to like them by posting endless videos and telling them they just "aren't really listening" if it's not their cup of tea, like Eric does. I will respect your right to dislike what I like, and vice versa, as long as you respect my right to the same. I respect and even applaud Eric's liking for JB as long as he respects my right to not feel the same way (and yes, I have watched some of the videos posted here--his music just isn't my cup of tea).

I agree with you completely. There is no reason to try to force feed any music on anyone.

Eric asked what I listened to. I told him what I played yesterday and today by means of information. He is free to ignore them all. Besides, my playlist changes every day.

Not everyone will like everything in the way of music. Every genre is not for everyone, nor is every band or singer. Every era had and has great, mediocre, and terrible music. Nothing has ever changed in that regard.

My CD of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony awaits a listen as I work now.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

I agree with you completely. There is no reason to try to force feed any music on anyone.

Eric asked what I listened to. I told him what I played yesterday and today by means of information. He is free to ignore them all. Besides, my playlist changes every day.

Not everyone will like everything in the way of music. Every genre is not for everyone, nor is every band or singer. Every era had and has great, mediocre, and terrible music. Nothing has ever changed in that regard.

My CD of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony awaits a listen as I work now.

When it comes to classical, Bach's Brandenberg Concertos or anything by Mozart does it for me every time.