Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You Ratt!!

JB can't be annihilated. He is an indestructible particle. Atom smashers can't touch him. Someday even you will beliebe! Never say never! Believe!
[/quote]
In the sense of the universe, perhaps. All I care about is that it is gone from my internet view now.

I admit, trying to understand the detractor is not always easy. Someone like Cole, or another person who commented on the Pray video I dialogued with, admit that they just don't like 16 year olds singing. That was pretty much true of JFDP too. But someone like wayne56 is as utterly incomprehensible as parallel universes and 11 dimensions. Not that I should convince him to like JB. I certainly don't expect any further comment here from him. It's just a fascinating and strange mystery. He admits he likes some pop, and says he will NEVER like JB, no matter what he does or how old he gets. So the youth and pop angles don't work. Just saying "tastes differ" or "it's just subjective" explains nothing. And he won't even admit that he has just decided not to like him; just that he never will. Go figure. I guess in the case of music, people use the idea that it's just subjective, as an excuse to make any statement no matter how nonsensical. But in your case, I guess it's mostly that (among current music) you like rock, and only rock, and probably only by people who have come of age. Or else, you too just think it's OK to rattle off nonsense, since it's only music, and gee whiz, it's only you know who. So who cares! He certainly doesn't need your approval. 10 million views and 250,000 likes in less than 4 days for his new video? Bieber fever is still abroad in the land, and if anything, it's growing.

1. It can do whatever it wants to. I can't change those things you are stating above. I can and did change my interface with the internet so that it is gone and is now Ratt.
2. I don't have a top 400, but I did post someplace the music types I do like. JB is just another incarnation of bubblegum. We had 1960's bubblegum, we had it again in the 1980's, and it's baaaaaaaaaaaaaack. Yuck. I do not like Disco and I do not like bubblegum.

Try to ignore it if you can, Rags; even from web experience, where the fever is strongest! In fact, you can't even ignore the haters of JB; he is "the most hated man on all the internet" according to one you tube poster! You can hate him, but sorry, you can't destroy him!

1. Destroy him? WTF? He's still there, but I've filtered him out of my web experience.
2. I don't hate him as a person. I just hate his cacaphonies.

PS I'm glad he has a bodyguard!
PS That was JB before Pray.

That's the downside of, well you said it. He's "popular". Once you reach the public eye, you need stuff like bodyguards and pit bulls.

Comment on "Believe" video:
"On Justin's old music he had so many comments about how he was gay and stupid and that he sucked at singing... and now reading through all these comments, it makes me so happy to see everyone supporting him :')"
erinreed143

Sample size = 1. Next.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Of course with Pixies you sometimes get to hear the sultry voice of Kim Deal


Little Bieber only wishes he had Black Francis' singing voice.



*Yes that is a very young Dennis Miller.*

**Removed the great videos for space purposes**

As a listener to the Pixies myself, the above statements are both examples of superior vocals to... the vocal stylings, such as they are, of JB.

Copperfield, you must be an Xer to cut the chase so succinctly, and with such precision. I love that about Xers.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I still feel the need to clarify the situation for you guys some more, so here goes.

Here is a guy, me, who is for the most part a "hater" of current pop and rock music, with some exceptions (Green Day, Everything Everything, etc.), who is not a teenage girl, who starts a thread saying he likes Ratt, and asks whether you do too. Ha Ha! "The last person you would expect." So what does that mean, except that maybe, if someone like me likes him, that there's something good or special about this guy's music (and personality too) that the haters and critics aren't noticing? I'm just saying so; not trying to get you to say yes if you honestly can't.

And, the guy has created or co-created over 25 songs that I like; 3 of them well enough to compare with my 400 favorites from the good old days. That's more by far than anyone else who started recording during the 3T (1985 onward). I know tastes differ, and a lot of you like the 80s/90s heavy metal hard rock stuff that I for the most part can't stand; not to mention rap, and the other monstrosities that have passed for pop music since the 3T began (perhaps because it has been an era of heavy over-commercialization and mega-corporatization of everything, thanks to the pro-business, greed-is-good orientation of politics).

But my challenge to you guys remains: tell me anyone else besides Ratt who has created or even just performed 25 pop or rock songs that I would like, at least one of which is in my opinion just as good as almost any song ever created, and who has started his/her career since the 3T began. My taste may be different from yours. I don't like noise, and pure rap whatever its other virtues is not music IMO. But I didn't have the slightest axe to grind in liking or defending Ratt. He meant less than nothing to me until I started on a day in mid-April 2012 listening to his songs on you tube (see the OP). I was open enough to like what I heard, in spite of my inclinations against doing so. There's no reason to suppose that I would not be open to any other pop or rock artist out there, who might make music that satisfies my tastes and interests to the extent that he does, and who started in 1985 or later. My suspicion is that, in fact, there is no other such artist.

But if it were so, I'd be delighted. I am already super-delighted to have discovered Owl City and Carly Rae Jepsen. And the song by both of them that I love almost as much as Pray by JB (and learned to perform myself) was suggested by another poster on this site. Maybe they have only done 4 or 5 songs I definitely like; but even that is more than any others I know so far. Never say never!

Uh, yes. I do like Ratt. I see that you've "gone round and round, and have come around...

Originally Posted by Eric's .sig

"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Ratt

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

Copperfield, you must be an Xer to cut the chase so succinctly, and with such precision. I love that about Xers.

Indeed I am. Born at just the right time to really enjoy the best of my generation's music too.

I finally had the opportunity to see the Pixies live just this past year. Incredible.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Indeed I am. Born at just the right time to really enjoy the best of my generation's music too.

I finally had the opportunity to see the Pixies live just this past year. Incredible.

Pixies live would rock the house.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Some more Disturbed.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

Declaring me "wrong", as if musical taste were factual and quantifiable, is your Boomerism showing through again.

I knew you would say that! Boomerism, and proud of it! Thanks, fellow boomer!

It might help your cause, and your self-appointed as a new convert crusade for JB, to be less judgement based in your proclamations. People don't react well to decrees and declarations that they are "wrong". Fortunately, I am a late wave Boomer and understand the language of absolutes.

Well good then. I will persist, however. In my opinion, those who don't like JB, are entitled to their opinions. But I find your particular attitude wrong. But then again, you are entitled to it.

Along with some retooling of your musical tastes, you could use some coaching on the humour thing. The obvious sarcasm style you employed is not in keeping with your character. Not everyone can pull off sarcasm humour effectively. Your personality is not suited to sarcasm humour. That is not a criticism, but a good thing.

Thanks anyway, but I will persist in it. Your taste in humor is as bad as your taste in music.
(more lousy humor and sarcasm )

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

I am not especially well versed in the MBTI personalities but I see your point about Eric and Jesse Jackson. Since I see Eric as a naive idealist, which is not a bad thing, the sarcasm form of humour doesn't suit him at all.

Idealist yes; naive no. I don't know what you base that judgement on. A "boomerism" from yourself that time.

There is little doubt, based on Eric's posts that he bases his strong opinions on feelings.

More naive judgement of me on your part.

The challenge for him is that not everyone bases their worldview on feelings. I understand that the MBTI system points in that direction, that feelings and intuition are not the only way to understand the world. They are a valid way to interpret the world, but they are not the only highway to understanding.

Odin's own definitions of things notwithstanding, I am INTP, although my T/F scale is almost equal. For a few years in the late 1960s, I might have been an F type, tipping the scale in that direction a few points.

All four modes of knowledge represented in MBTI are needed to understand the world. That is what I base my opinions on. To use only feelings would be silly. Facts, theories, intuitions, logic, senses, spiritual understanding; all are needed.

Eric, explain something to me please. You yourself have said your liking JB is an opinion. If that it the case, how can someone who doesn't like JB be wrong? Opinions by definition are neither wrong or right. Musical taste is subjective, and therefore can never be wrong or right. You like potatoes, I like rutabagas, and all that. If I like rutabagas better it doesn't mean they are better.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

All I care about is that it is gone from my internet view now.

I guess your tech expertise is put to work. It is as incomprehensible to me as your basis for hating JB's music.

1. ...I can't change those things you are stating above. I can and did change my interface with the internet so that it is gone and is now Ratt.
2. I don't have a top 400, but I did post someplace the music types I do like. JB is just another incarnation of bubblegum. We had 1960's bubblegum, we had it again in the 1980's, and it's baaaaaaaaaaaaaack. Yuck. I do not like Disco and I do not like bubblegum.

I don't like them either. Fortunately JB is neither, but I understand why people might mistake him for bubblegum. He is a young singer; but that's about the only similarity. But what he does do is bring melody, harmony and good vocals back into pop music, and that is anathema to most Xers and some other boomers like Wayne. You guys would rather be blasted with inharmonious noise, and you are just not used to music anymore. So you call it bubblegum. I am glad, however, that music is making a comeback. I hope it continues. I have missed music being in the mainstream, instead of on the cultural fringes. But I don't think my bullhorn or its absence would have any effect on guys like you, Wayne, Copperfield, whether I used it or not. Stating your opinions is fine. And there's nothing I can do about you guys contaminating it with Nirvana either. It's a free country, and a free forum.

Originally Posted by sbrombacher

Eric, explain something to me please. You yourself have said your liking JB is an opinion. If that it the case, how can someone who doesn't like JB be wrong? Opinions by definition are neither wrong or right. Musical taste is subjective, and therefore can never be wrong or right. You like potatoes, I like rutabagas, and all that. If I like rutabagas better it doesn't mean they are better.

I am entitled to state my opinion. I think I hear good music, and as I said before in my previous answer to you, sometimes it takes me several hearings or even more to hear the good in it. So when others don't hear it, it may be the case that they just aren't hearing what's there. I may invite them to listen more closely. Musical taste is not entirely subjective, and I explained that before too. We hear something in common when we listen to a particular piece of music.

Wayne is wrong because his statements make no sense. Others may be wrong because they aren't hearing the music, or they just refuse to listen, or they block off entire genres as unlikely to please them. Others still may just have a different set of desires, abilities, and interests that they bring to the music, and JB doesn't fulfill those for them. Others just don't like music by teenagers, in this case; or they make some other blanket judgement like that. And no music is completely perfect or horrible; people tend to focus more on the good or the bad aspects of some piece of music, depending on their inclinations. The situation varies, and what is not black and white is that music is not entirely subjective or objective.

I have to admit, that to dislike or hate JB just because his voice is high, and/or because he's young, or is more popular than he deserves to be, seems stupid to me. Sorry. But I know that no-one's voice is going to appeal to everybody, and it is not perfect anyway. I like it, and I think he's a good singer, and always has been. Believe is the most consistently good album he has done so far. And of course, his voice is only one part of why the songs are good; not even the most important factor.

"I really wasn't a big fan of justin, but after this album i think i have bieber fever."
--chobotlover

I'd better post a link to some Bieber music here. Too many posts above have diverted the JB temple away from the proper repertoire. Let's see... hmmmmm. Here's one I haven't posted yet. Son of a gun.... it's called
Catching Feelings. I just realized; how appropriate.
http://youtu.be/axyfEusEuho
yet another excellent song by JB
What the bleep; here's another one:
http://youtu.be/j-nxZ0IFSvE

Listen and weep at how wrong you were.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I knew you would say that! Boomerism, and proud of it! Thanks, fellow boomer!

Well good then. I will persist, however. In my opinion, those who don't like JB, are entitled to their opinions. But I find your particular attitude wrong. But then again, you are entitled to it.

Thanks anyway, but I will persist in it. Your taste in humor is as bad as your taste in music.
(more lousy humor and sarcasm )

I am not certain how I can be "entitled to [my] opinion" and be "wrong" at the same time. Your judgement is getting extreme.

It is your attempts at sarcasm that are the problem with your wild stabs at humour. It doesn't suit your style. Like music, there are many forms of humour. Sarcasm just doesn't work for you.

I may be a Boomer, but I can escape, and step outside of it. Being late wave in the Boomer world helps in that regard. Your Boomer world has "right and wrong" tastes. My world has live and let live in tastes.

By the way, I listen to tons of music from the High and the Awakening. I also listen to music from the Unraveling. I still don't see any reason to listen to JB, whose music doesn't impress me, or speak to me in any way.

***************

"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day where no one has to listen to my music" -- Justin Bieber

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

I am not certain how I can be "entitled to [my] opinion" and be "wrong" at the same time. Your judgement is getting extreme.

I think, if I want to say you're wrong, that's my perogative.

It is your attempts at sarcasm that are the problem with your wild stabs at humour. It doesn't suit your style. Like music, there are many forms of humour. Sarcasm just doesn't work for you.

Not for YOU. But then, my taste in music doesn't work for you either.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I think, if I want to say you're wrong, that's my perogative.

Not for YOU. But then, my taste in music doesn't work for you either.

Hey, if you think you are being humourous with your use of sarcasm, then go for it.

We are simply talking past one another now anyway.

Originally Posted by Wayneh56

Hey, if you think you are being humourous with your use of sarcasm, then go for it.

We are simply talking past one another now anyway.

Weren't we always, on this thread? We live in different musical universes, and different ideas of what makes sense, and of what's right and wrong. Who knows, maybe we have other things in common anyway.

Now for a little humor...

The question of who likes and dislikes Justin Bieber, besides what T4Ters say (mostly dislike), can be compared to the world-wide audience on you tube.

His most-viewed video, Baby (Feb.2010) the most-viewed of all-time by far, by anyone (766 million), has the most dislikes of any video by far, and the 2nd-most likes. The numbers are 1,280,000 likes, 2,800,000 dislikes. His first hit, One Time (late 2009), has 440,000 likes and 407,000 dislikes, out of almost 300 million views; only slightly more likes, but Baby has 7 times more dislikes than One Time. Never Say Never (video released early 2011), his second most-watched video (328 million), has 600,000 likes and 275,000 dislikes, about 2 to 1, and 1/10 as many dislikes as Baby, and the same like/dislike ratio appears in some of his earlier big hits such as One Less Lonely Girl and Somebody to Love. On Love Me (video released August 2010) it is 3 to 1, about 300,000 to 100,000, out of over 100 million views. By the time we get to Pray (Nov.2010), the numbers are 360,000 likes to 72,000, about 5 to 1, and the number of views are below 100 million (72 million).

His later, most-watched videos show a 3 to 1 ratio. Mistletoe (late 2011) has over 600,000 likes, 188,000 dislikes, and over 100 million views. Boyfriend (2012) has a similar pattern. With the more-obscure and later videos, however, the ratio is always more than 10 to 1, likes to dislikes. All I Want is You (2011) for example, has a ratio of 16 to 1, with less than 2 million views. Born to Be Somebody (2011) has 11,000 to 200, over 50 to 1, on one of its several videos. Believe (2012) has a 20 to 1 ratio, and also 2 million views. With Be Alright, the ratio is 40 to 1, out of 1.5 million views. His latest blockbuster video, As Long As You Love Me, has 14 million views since August 1, with 290,000 to 33,000, about a 9 to 1 ratio of likes to dislikes (now, it's official: #1 on the You Tube 100 this week, dethroning Call Me Maybe!)

The pattern is clear. Most of those who dislike Bieber, watch Baby, and only Baby. They tend to watch his most popular, and earlier videos. They can't be bothered to listen to his other songs. They express their opinion on Baby, but not on his other works in anywhere near the same degree. Most people who watch more of his songs, like them.

Wayne's experience is an anomaly, and goes directly against the general pattern. He gives no reason for his opinion, and at the same time he says he has listened to many of his songs, not just the early, most-popular ones. Yet the more he listens to them, the more he dislikes them. He says it is not a decision, and yet he will never change his opinion. I wonder if he is being sincere on this thread, but I assume that he is. But if so, his view is strange and incomprehensible.

Eric, argument by popularity is a fallacy.

Originally Posted by Odin

Eric, argument by popularity is a fallacy.

I'm not arguing anything in my above post; just pointing out the pattern of likes and dislikes, using the raw data from a major source.

"Proudly incomprehensible to Eric the Green"

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Wayne's experience is an anomaly, and goes directly against the general pattern. He gives no reason for his opinion, and at the same time he says he has listened to many of his songs, not just the early, most-popular ones. Yet the more he listens to them, the more he dislikes them. He says it is not a decision, and yet he will never change his opinion. I wonder if he is being sincere on this thread, but I assume that he is. But if so, his view is strange and incomprehensible.

What is so hard to understand. The more I hear of this cacophony, the less I like it; and more actively dislike it. I gave JB a fair opportunity, listened to more of his vocal stylings than most people, and didn't like what I heard. There is nothing strange or incomprehensible about that, except to you, Eric. Others here understand my point completely.

As usual, Eric, we are talking past one another.

Ok, guys...what I don't get is why it's a big deal whether any particular person likes Bieber's music or not? I mean, who gives a damn about something so mundane, really? The posts and responses on this thread clearly exhibit why the entire Forum has jumped the shark, imho.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Ok, guys...what I don't get is why it's a big deal whether any particular person likes Bieber's music or not? I mean, who gives a damn about something so mundane, really? The posts and responses on this thread clearly exhibit why the entire Forum has jumped the shark, imho.

1. For me, it goes back to the "who do you have on ignore" thread. I thought that since we have the ignore option for posters, I think it would be nice to take the concept of "ignore" to a whole new level. After all, many folks create "killfiles" for mailing lists which pretty much perform the same function as the ignore one here. However, most email filters can also be set up to ignore things based upon a wide range of criteria. You can ignore by subject, by some keyword in email contents, and the like. Since vBulletin lacks the wide range of ignore functionality, I stumbled upon some software that would allow me to have the full ignore functionality of email clients and extend those to my web browser.
2. Since I've remapped to offending noun this thread is about to "Ratt", it allows me to visit Eric more. Obviously, I do not wish to put Eric on ignore, just his pontificating about cacaphonic music on this thread.
3. I've used this thread to share the concept of "web proxy" to others on the forums. Let's take an example. Odin has mentioned a few times that he encounters <<nouns>> on DU which cause him consternation. Now, if he decided to adopt a "web proxy", he, likewise could ignore pretty much anything on DU by creating a specific ruleset (subroutine if you will) to either change <<yucky nouns here>> either to a blank (full ignore) or add stuff to the "fun" subroutine already provided and rename said nouns to anything he wants to call them. Also, like here, he could select threads to ignore.
4. In, addition, I have ignored all manner of "visual spam" that used to show up on my web browser. This saves bandwidth and speeds up the stuff I want to see, since ads tend to be graphics files and have a tendency to be large. After a month, I'll be checking my web usage and perhaps, I can change my ISP plan to one which has a lower download allowance and thus save $. Just think in this day and age what this concept could do for folks' cell phone data plans. If someone decided to use a web proxy on their cell phone, then their data usage would fall and that person would enjoy tangible positive results. Space is also a limitation on cell phones. Perhaps ignoring ads could make more room for desired content as well.
5. Ignore works both ways: Basically here, I do not wish to provide "free" customer information to the likes of Google,ytimg.com, and a whole bunch of other corporations. I think they should pay me for the privilege. Otherwise, I want to be ignored since that state of being increases my privacy and security. Those are tangibles. To reiterate, since assorted corporations are not crediting my checking account, then they will be getting what they pay for, which is 0 information.
6. Obviously, and in a tangential way, I'm using this thread to inform other forum members about exactly how I've implemented ignore wrt web browsing. I am not pontificating that other forum members should do so. After all, it does take effort to produce rulesets/subroutines to achieve the desired results. I think that is a balanced presentation on what I'm discussing. It's simple, some forum members might like to do this, but others due to the obvious technical nature of implementing "web ignore" may place other things ahead of RTFM'ing wrt writing proxy programs.
7. As to your point about the topic of this thread as "mundane". Well, for me at least, it's a matter of principle. I stated specifically that I do not like this source of cacaphonies. I also do know, that Eric has every right to "add new things to his virtual shrine here". This means that this thread will show up when I search for new posts. I've accepted that:
a. vBulletin does not have a thread ignore.
b. Eric and sometimes others (myself included) add posts to this thread and "bump" it. Now this means I can't chide Eric about that either. That would make me a hypocrite.
c. With that state of affairs, the best option is to do what I did. This thread is sort of ignored. I just changed the noun this thread is about and I'm contented. Vbulletin, Craig, etc. don't really have to do anything and I won't get to a point where I'd start badgering them.
8. TeeVee: I'd like to present this as another appliance where ignore is used. I think we're all aware of the "mute" button. My guess is that a lot of people use that to block sounds from nouns that occur on TeeVee they deem annoying, like say commercials. If you have dish satellite TeeVee, you can program your satellite box to ignore certain channels. I've done that for shopping channels,PPV (since I don't do PPV), all premium channels (I don't do them either), and Spanish channels since I don't understand Spanish. Now, what I'd like to see is enhanced ignore. I'd like to have an "advanced feature" as such:
a. IGNORE_PROGRAMMING_TYPE (LIST)
List would be a checklist of: (REALITY,SCIENCE,NEWS,WEATHER,PRO_WRESTLING,HISTOR Y,CARTOONS,PAID_PROGRAMMING,PORN,RATED_X,RATED_R,R ATED_PG,RATED_G,UNRATED,etc.)
Note that this seems to be a more efficient way of configuring parental control.
b. IGNORE_CHANNEL_TYPE(NEWS,WEATHER,REALITY,PORN,SHOP PING,RELIGION,PBS,SPANISH,ENGLISH,CARTOONS,INFO_ME RCIALS,etc.)
c. Reverse the above:ALLOW_PROGRAMMING_TYPE(LIST), ALLOW_CHANNEL_TYPE(LIST)
I'm sure the above could be easily implemented since satellite boxes are basic computers with a DVD drive for recording. I've also tried to be neutral wrt the above. I like science,new,history,weather,etc. That is why I put those in the lists along with the stuff I do not like.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Ok, guys...what I don't get is why it's a big deal whether any particular person likes Bieber's music or not? I mean, who gives a damn about something so mundane, really? The posts and responses on this thread clearly exhibit why the entire Forum has jumped the shark, imho.

I think, at least, it should not be taken too seriously. Even if I say someone is wrong, it's only about Justin Bieber. It doesn't matter all that much whether you are wrong or not, or who is wrong and who is not, or who says who is wrong or doesn't. I am sincere in saying I like Justin Bieber (or, wait a minute, could this entire thread be a hoax? I don't really like him after all??.... who really knows ). But it's a lighthearted subject; so I say, lighten up.

The Three B's: Bach, Beethoven, .............. and Bieber! (sorry, Rags, "Ratt" won't work here )

Definition of bubblegum music, for a lot of folks here: any piece of music performed by someone under 21. So, Mozart wrote mostly bubblegum music.

But, "Pray" is such a miracle! I can't buy the definition; it is disproven by that one song alone! A piece of music that (near the end) has at least 4 distinct lines of beautiful melody going, in perfect counterpoint, is not bubblegum; it is worthy of comparison to the best pieces in history.