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Thread: The Media and Us - Page 4







Post#76 at 05-07-2004 09:46 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
More vanity: you once again claim "victim" status (a big, "experienced" guy like you no less). And to clarify: you do not get criticized for opening your mouth; you get criticized for engaging in deceit (spawned of excessive vanity) when you do open your mouth.
Is this your way of making yourself feel good, little seadog? Of attempting to raise your own stature among the big people, little seadog? This typical limp-wristed blather reminds me of my favorite description of the little seadog that couldn't:
  • You are become a stupid old, worn out comic strip, little seadog. Tis all yellowed around the edges from extreme bitterness and decay. Not Funny is the name of it. And you are like a cheap caricature of the very supposed "human garbage" you rail against.
As usual, some very heavy projection from T4T's representative "reprobate" and Master of Deceit. Thank you for your typically unresponsive and very comical distraction. Perhaps Dr. Vince can find that big movie screen for you.
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#77 at 05-07-2004 10:36 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mike Eagen
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
I would just add that, whether or not I (or any other American citizen) supports the war, it is being conducted in our name, and our tax dollars are going to pay for it. I believe it is my right to see what those dollars are purchasing. CBS, Sy Hersh, or whoever it is -- they are doing their jobs in telling us what's going on. This goes beyond whether or not Americans support this particular war. This is a matter of basic human decency and how it has been violated.
Then I can only conclude madam that you are a hell of a lot more cold blooded than I when it comes to sacrificing our personnel in uniform, because whether you want to believe it or not, that is what you are endorsing in your support of these people and institutions at this particular juncture. More will die because CBS, etc. are "doing their jobs." BTW, I am one cold blooded SOB so I think I know one when I see one.
On the contrary, my blood is running very hot these days. :evil:

I'll just leave it at that.







Post#78 at 05-07-2004 10:36 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mike Eagen
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
I would just add that, whether or not I (or any other American citizen) supports the war, it is being conducted in our name, and our tax dollars are going to pay for it. I believe it is my right to see what those dollars are purchasing. CBS, Sy Hersh, or whoever it is -- they are doing their jobs in telling us what's going on. This goes beyond whether or not Americans support this particular war. This is a matter of basic human decency and how it has been violated.
Then I can only conclude madam that you are a hell of a lot more cold blooded than I when it comes to sacrificing our personnel in uniform, because whether you want to believe it or not, that is what you are endorsing in your support of these people and institutions at this particular juncture. More will die because CBS, etc. are "doing their jobs." BTW, I am one cold blooded SOB so I think I know one when I see one.
On the contrary, my blood is running very hot these days. :evil:

I'll just leave it at that.







Post#79 at 05-07-2004 10:37 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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OMG....


... Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and ?acting inappropriately with a dead body.? The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#80 at 05-07-2004 10:37 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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OMG....


... Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and ?acting inappropriately with a dead body.? The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#81 at 05-07-2004 10:50 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
More vanity: you once again claim "victim" status (a big, "experienced" guy like you no less). And to clarify: you do not get criticized for opening your mouth; you get criticized for engaging in deceit (spawned of excessive vanity) when you do open your mouth.
Is this your way of making yourself feel good, little seadog? Of attempting to raise your own stature among the big people, little seadog? This typical limp-wristed blather reminds me of my favorite description of the little seadog that couldn't:
  • You are become a stupid old, worn out comic strip, little seadog. Tis all yellowed around the edges from extreme bitterness and decay. Not Funny is the name of it. And you are like a cheap caricature of the very supposed "human garbage" you rail against.
As usual, some very heavy projection from T4T's representative "reprobate" and Master of Deceit. Thank you for your typically unresponsive and very comical distraction. Perhaps Dr. Vince can find that big movie screen for you.
Not right now. Instead, I'll invoke Frank Zappa and ask him if he's the Devil, who's holding his pickle?
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#82 at 05-07-2004 10:50 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
More vanity: you once again claim "victim" status (a big, "experienced" guy like you no less). And to clarify: you do not get criticized for opening your mouth; you get criticized for engaging in deceit (spawned of excessive vanity) when you do open your mouth.
Is this your way of making yourself feel good, little seadog? Of attempting to raise your own stature among the big people, little seadog? This typical limp-wristed blather reminds me of my favorite description of the little seadog that couldn't:
  • You are become a stupid old, worn out comic strip, little seadog. Tis all yellowed around the edges from extreme bitterness and decay. Not Funny is the name of it. And you are like a cheap caricature of the very supposed "human garbage" you rail against.
As usual, some very heavy projection from T4T's representative "reprobate" and Master of Deceit. Thank you for your typically unresponsive and very comical distraction. Perhaps Dr. Vince can find that big movie screen for you.
Not right now. Instead, I'll invoke Frank Zappa and ask him if he's the Devil, who's holding his pickle?
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#83 at 05-07-2004 10:59 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flicka
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
Quote Originally Posted by Flicka



The media have been rather tight with this administration, and believe me I felt the boot of media sponsored group think as everybody was whipped up into hysterics in March 2003 right before the bombs dropped in Baghdad.
The media have been hostile to the Bush Administration since day one, though after 911 they muted their tone out of fear of public backlash. But right through the Iraq invasion, they were reporting 'facts' at variance with the reality on the ground, that's how Fox News managed to scoop them, not that they'll admit it even happened.
Fox News is part of the media, Schroder.
You've got a good point. Right-wingers have a bad habit of just saying 'the media' to mean the liberal outlets, because for so many years there were no serious alternatives.

You're right, I should have spoken more precisely.







Post#84 at 05-07-2004 10:59 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flicka
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
Quote Originally Posted by Flicka



The media have been rather tight with this administration, and believe me I felt the boot of media sponsored group think as everybody was whipped up into hysterics in March 2003 right before the bombs dropped in Baghdad.
The media have been hostile to the Bush Administration since day one, though after 911 they muted their tone out of fear of public backlash. But right through the Iraq invasion, they were reporting 'facts' at variance with the reality on the ground, that's how Fox News managed to scoop them, not that they'll admit it even happened.
Fox News is part of the media, Schroder.
You've got a good point. Right-wingers have a bad habit of just saying 'the media' to mean the liberal outlets, because for so many years there were no serious alternatives.

You're right, I should have spoken more precisely.







Post#85 at 05-07-2004 11:16 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Not right now. Instead, I'll invoke Frank Zappa and ask him if he's the Devil, who's holding his pickle?
I had to look that one up and I still don't get it! I'd post the lyrics but they seem too "adult" at first glance.
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#86 at 05-07-2004 11:16 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Not right now. Instead, I'll invoke Frank Zappa and ask him if he's the Devil, who's holding his pickle?
I had to look that one up and I still don't get it! I'd post the lyrics but they seem too "adult" at first glance.
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#87 at 05-07-2004 11:53 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Not right now. Instead, I'll invoke Frank Zappa and ask him if he's the Devil, who's holding his pickle?
[burp.]
Advocate for the "Devil" is not likely to be the "Devil" himself, but a mere defender of the percieved downtrodden at any given point in time. Ergo, when the poor were truly poor (without food) said "Devil's Advocate" would defend their cause. When the poor now own TVs, DVD players, suits and socks of every kind, free food, school lunch, no cost babysitting, free parking etc etc etc..., said "Devil's Advocate" no longer defends the poor but rather those paying the bills.

Donny Rumsfield, today, as "Advocate" for the poor and desitute Iraqi Baathist murderers, offered just monetary compensation for their pain suffered at the hands of American women in uniform. Devil's Advocate says Rummy ought to resign NOW!

See what I mean, dude? 8)

p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:







Post#88 at 05-07-2004 11:53 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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05-07-2004, 11:53 PM #88
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Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Not right now. Instead, I'll invoke Frank Zappa and ask him if he's the Devil, who's holding his pickle?
[burp.]
Advocate for the "Devil" is not likely to be the "Devil" himself, but a mere defender of the percieved downtrodden at any given point in time. Ergo, when the poor were truly poor (without food) said "Devil's Advocate" would defend their cause. When the poor now own TVs, DVD players, suits and socks of every kind, free food, school lunch, no cost babysitting, free parking etc etc etc..., said "Devil's Advocate" no longer defends the poor but rather those paying the bills.

Donny Rumsfield, today, as "Advocate" for the poor and desitute Iraqi Baathist murderers, offered just monetary compensation for their pain suffered at the hands of American women in uniform. Devil's Advocate says Rummy ought to resign NOW!

See what I mean, dude? 8)

p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:







Post#89 at 05-08-2004 12:06 AM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20040514/index.php

(Standard disclaimers. Emphasis added.)



Ironic Difference

by Charley Reese
For Friday, May 14, 2004

It's ironic that at a time when the whole world is disgusted by pictures of Iraqi prisoners being abused by thugs and sluts in American uniforms, an American doctor in Germany reports that Thomas Hamill was reasonably well-treated by his Iraqi kidnappers.

A bullet wound received at the time of Hamill's capture had been treated surgically, the wound was cleaned on a daily basis, and Hamill had been given antibiotics, the doctor said. Hamill said that while he was moved frequently, he was not beaten or mistreated after his capture.

The significance of the contrasting treatment of prisoners by Iraqi resistance fighters and American military police is this: Pfc. Keith Maupin, still in the hands of his kidnappers, might not fare so well now that his kidnappers know what was going on in Abu Ghraib prison. If they decide to "even the score" on this poor young man, his suffering will be the responsibility of the U.S. Army.

The Army learned of the prisoner abuse last January and since then has moved with all the speed of a dinosaur trapped in a peat bog. So far, six senior officers have been reprimanded and one admonished. Six enlisted people face criminal charges. Naturally, they will dump on the enlisted people. The Army's first bellowed response was "isolated incident" and "exception."

It was not either one. One report has already said that the problems of abuse were widespread. Twenty-five Iraqis have died while in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, and two Iraqis were murdered by Americans. Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who was criticized for a sloppy and poorly disciplined command, is nevertheless right when she says that those enlisted people did not dream this up by themselves. She has, by the way, put forward a novel defense. She accepts "some responsibility" but not blame. She was the commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, of which the offending 372nd Military Police Company was a part.

What American guards did to the Iraqi prisoners shows knowledge of Arab culture, a knowledge you can be sure these young reservists didn't learn in their rural hometowns. The humiliation these prisoners were forced to endure hurts an Arab more than a whip. This whole business smells of intelligence and CIA. Let's hope the enlisted people will have sense enough to rat out their superior officers rather than make an idiotic excuse that they hadn't been trained. Since when do people have to be trained to be decent human beings?

It's also obvious that these moral morons didn't fear their superiors, or they would not have taken the pictures.
Seymour Hersh, who wrote an excellent piece in The New Yorker, believes that even more disturbing pictures will eventually surface.

What has come to light so far is probably only the tip of the iceberg. The United States is holding about 10,000 Iraqis in various places and keeps outsiders away. There are also what Human Rights Watch calls several legal "black holes" around the world where the United States is holding people without anyone else's knowledge and without any access by human-rights people, much less lawyers. God only knows how they are being treated.

This is the ugly side of war and of a war state. Intelligence itself is an ugly business. The job of an intelligence case officer is to induce other people to become traitors. Lying and deception and worse habits become a way of life. Then when you have someone officially designated as an enemy completely at your mercy, the intoxication of power sets in. And in time of war, it is so easy to rationalize any tactic, so easy to adopt a racist attitude toward the other side.

The only thing exceptional about this incident is that it has come to public light. What's going on out there in darkness, you probably don't want to know. It would probably confuse you as to who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, to use the juvenile language of the current administration.

At any rate, these guards and the people who directed them have given the United States a black eye in the world from which it will be difficult to recover. They have dishonored the uniform. President Bush's blather about freedom and democracy will ring hollow. Some people already think of the United States as a rogue nation. At the rate the Bush administration is fouling up, we'll achieve pariah status pretty soon.

"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#90 at 05-08-2004 12:06 AM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20040514/index.php

(Standard disclaimers. Emphasis added.)



Ironic Difference

by Charley Reese
For Friday, May 14, 2004

It's ironic that at a time when the whole world is disgusted by pictures of Iraqi prisoners being abused by thugs and sluts in American uniforms, an American doctor in Germany reports that Thomas Hamill was reasonably well-treated by his Iraqi kidnappers.

A bullet wound received at the time of Hamill's capture had been treated surgically, the wound was cleaned on a daily basis, and Hamill had been given antibiotics, the doctor said. Hamill said that while he was moved frequently, he was not beaten or mistreated after his capture.

The significance of the contrasting treatment of prisoners by Iraqi resistance fighters and American military police is this: Pfc. Keith Maupin, still in the hands of his kidnappers, might not fare so well now that his kidnappers know what was going on in Abu Ghraib prison. If they decide to "even the score" on this poor young man, his suffering will be the responsibility of the U.S. Army.

The Army learned of the prisoner abuse last January and since then has moved with all the speed of a dinosaur trapped in a peat bog. So far, six senior officers have been reprimanded and one admonished. Six enlisted people face criminal charges. Naturally, they will dump on the enlisted people. The Army's first bellowed response was "isolated incident" and "exception."

It was not either one. One report has already said that the problems of abuse were widespread. Twenty-five Iraqis have died while in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, and two Iraqis were murdered by Americans. Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who was criticized for a sloppy and poorly disciplined command, is nevertheless right when she says that those enlisted people did not dream this up by themselves. She has, by the way, put forward a novel defense. She accepts "some responsibility" but not blame. She was the commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, of which the offending 372nd Military Police Company was a part.

What American guards did to the Iraqi prisoners shows knowledge of Arab culture, a knowledge you can be sure these young reservists didn't learn in their rural hometowns. The humiliation these prisoners were forced to endure hurts an Arab more than a whip. This whole business smells of intelligence and CIA. Let's hope the enlisted people will have sense enough to rat out their superior officers rather than make an idiotic excuse that they hadn't been trained. Since when do people have to be trained to be decent human beings?

It's also obvious that these moral morons didn't fear their superiors, or they would not have taken the pictures.
Seymour Hersh, who wrote an excellent piece in The New Yorker, believes that even more disturbing pictures will eventually surface.

What has come to light so far is probably only the tip of the iceberg. The United States is holding about 10,000 Iraqis in various places and keeps outsiders away. There are also what Human Rights Watch calls several legal "black holes" around the world where the United States is holding people without anyone else's knowledge and without any access by human-rights people, much less lawyers. God only knows how they are being treated.

This is the ugly side of war and of a war state. Intelligence itself is an ugly business. The job of an intelligence case officer is to induce other people to become traitors. Lying and deception and worse habits become a way of life. Then when you have someone officially designated as an enemy completely at your mercy, the intoxication of power sets in. And in time of war, it is so easy to rationalize any tactic, so easy to adopt a racist attitude toward the other side.

The only thing exceptional about this incident is that it has come to public light. What's going on out there in darkness, you probably don't want to know. It would probably confuse you as to who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, to use the juvenile language of the current administration.

At any rate, these guards and the people who directed them have given the United States a black eye in the world from which it will be difficult to recover. They have dishonored the uniform. President Bush's blather about freedom and democracy will ring hollow. Some people already think of the United States as a rogue nation. At the rate the Bush administration is fouling up, we'll achieve pariah status pretty soon.

"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#91 at 05-08-2004 12:48 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Schooled for the Information Age

UK forces taught torture methods by Mr. David Leigh in the 8 May 2004 number of The Guardian quoted for educational use only:

The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."

He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.

"There is a reservoir of knowledge about these interrogation techniques which is retained by former special forces soldiers who are being rehired as private contractors in Iraq. Contractors are bringing in their old friends".

Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.

Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes.

"Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn't cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying 'I've had enough', and the other had a breakdown. It's exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.

Many British and US special forces soldiers learn about the degradation techniques because they are subjected to them to help them resist if captured. They include soldiers from the SAS, SBS, most air pilots, paratroopers and members of pathfinder platoons.

A number of commercial firms which have been supplying interrogators to the US army in Iraq boast of hiring former US special forces soldiers, such as Navy Seals.

"The crucial difference from Iraq is that frontline soldiers who are made to experience R2I techniques themselves develop empathy. They realise the suffering they are causing. But people who haven't undergone this don't realise what they are doing to people. It's a shambles in Iraq".

The British former officer said the dissemination of R2I techniques inside Iraq was all the more dangerous because of the general mood among American troops.

"The feeling among US soldiers I've spoken to in the last week is also that 'the gloves are off'. Many of them still think they are dealing with people responsible for 9/11".

When the interrogation techniques are used on British soldiers for training purposes, they are subject to a strict 48-hour time limit, and a supervisor and a psychologist are always present. It is recognised that in inexperienced hands, prisoners can be plunged into psychosis.

The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men.

The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.

The US commander in charge of military jails in Iraq, Major General Geoffrey Miller, has confirmed that a battery of 50-odd special "coercive techniques" can be used against enemy detainees. The general, who previously ran the prison camp at Guant?namo Bay, said his main role was to extract as much intelligence as possible.

Interrogation experts at Abu Ghraib prison were there to help make the prison staff "more able to garner intelligence as rapidly as possible".
Sleep deprivation and stripping naked were techniques that could now only be authorised at general officer level, he said.
Ah...Millennials "educated" for the "information" economy. And, education is applied and then information is spread world wide in governmental and then commercial application. And, during 'sweeps' as well.







Post#92 at 05-08-2004 12:48 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Schooled for the Information Age

UK forces taught torture methods by Mr. David Leigh in the 8 May 2004 number of The Guardian quoted for educational use only:

The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."

He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.

"There is a reservoir of knowledge about these interrogation techniques which is retained by former special forces soldiers who are being rehired as private contractors in Iraq. Contractors are bringing in their old friends".

Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.

Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes.

"Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn't cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying 'I've had enough', and the other had a breakdown. It's exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.

Many British and US special forces soldiers learn about the degradation techniques because they are subjected to them to help them resist if captured. They include soldiers from the SAS, SBS, most air pilots, paratroopers and members of pathfinder platoons.

A number of commercial firms which have been supplying interrogators to the US army in Iraq boast of hiring former US special forces soldiers, such as Navy Seals.

"The crucial difference from Iraq is that frontline soldiers who are made to experience R2I techniques themselves develop empathy. They realise the suffering they are causing. But people who haven't undergone this don't realise what they are doing to people. It's a shambles in Iraq".

The British former officer said the dissemination of R2I techniques inside Iraq was all the more dangerous because of the general mood among American troops.

"The feeling among US soldiers I've spoken to in the last week is also that 'the gloves are off'. Many of them still think they are dealing with people responsible for 9/11".

When the interrogation techniques are used on British soldiers for training purposes, they are subject to a strict 48-hour time limit, and a supervisor and a psychologist are always present. It is recognised that in inexperienced hands, prisoners can be plunged into psychosis.

The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men.

The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.

The US commander in charge of military jails in Iraq, Major General Geoffrey Miller, has confirmed that a battery of 50-odd special "coercive techniques" can be used against enemy detainees. The general, who previously ran the prison camp at Guant?namo Bay, said his main role was to extract as much intelligence as possible.

Interrogation experts at Abu Ghraib prison were there to help make the prison staff "more able to garner intelligence as rapidly as possible".
Sleep deprivation and stripping naked were techniques that could now only be authorised at general officer level, he said.
Ah...Millennials "educated" for the "information" economy. And, education is applied and then information is spread world wide in governmental and then commercial application. And, during 'sweeps' as well.







Post#93 at 05-08-2004 01:20 AM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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05-08-2004, 01:20 AM #93
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http://www.lewrockwell.com/white/white51.html

(Standard disclaimers. Emphasis added.)



Things Aren?t Looking So Good Just Now

by Tom White


I believe one is supposed to watch out for Schadenfreude; it is thought very wicked to enjoy the discomfiture of one?s enemies. It is also extremely difficult to avoid it while still human and afflicted with the weaknesses involved in being conditioned by Original Sin.

Ever since it ran in the New York Times April 30, 2003, I have saved a front-page color photograph of the man I call to myself "Donald of Arabia." Somehow it seemed a veritable icon of our crazy adventure in the Middle East. It is a masterpiece of portraiture: the title might be simply: "The Conqueror." There he is in his lonely eminence, midst a crowd.



The entire Bush outfit is now discredited. I know because I was in the Navy and learned that whatever happens in the military, the responsibility belongs to the man in charge. Hitler understood that and checked out as the Allies closed in. His fellow German "leaders" were rounded up and stood trial and were held responsible for the whole batch of crimes the Nazis perpetrated. Long jail sentences, further suicides, universal obloquy. No rehabilitation yet.

I do not see how those utterly awful, damning, outrageous, sickening photographs are going to be lived down by any of the lot who oversaw the enterprise of which they are now the single most famous element. And they are likely to remain so as long as the memory of man runneth over these years. The strongest nation in the world?s history is caught in the most disreputable postures of the modern era. Gross, tasteless, cruel, pornographic torture engaged in for "intelligence."

What was needed was precisely some intelligence, but it was and is not available to this bandit Bush regime. True intelligence is spiritual insight, and that is what is entirely wanting at our top levels, because the Spirit bloweth where it listeth; and it is plain it listeth not in the direction of our Eminences these days. We are hoist as a nation. We are shamed in the world?s eyes, every one of us, for complicity in this whole awful thing. It is cousin-german to the murder of Christ. Who did it? We did it.

Where is the Congress when we need it? When shall there be a motion to impeach one or more of the posturers at the top of the political heap? When shall there be a rising up of the people with a mighty rejection of our so-called Establishment? When, in the name of God, will there be a retreat from Iraq and an apology issued to Iraq and the world for a terrible transgression?


May 8, 2004
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#94 at 05-08-2004 01:20 AM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
---
05-08-2004, 01:20 AM #94
Join Date
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http://www.lewrockwell.com/white/white51.html

(Standard disclaimers. Emphasis added.)



Things Aren?t Looking So Good Just Now

by Tom White


I believe one is supposed to watch out for Schadenfreude; it is thought very wicked to enjoy the discomfiture of one?s enemies. It is also extremely difficult to avoid it while still human and afflicted with the weaknesses involved in being conditioned by Original Sin.

Ever since it ran in the New York Times April 30, 2003, I have saved a front-page color photograph of the man I call to myself "Donald of Arabia." Somehow it seemed a veritable icon of our crazy adventure in the Middle East. It is a masterpiece of portraiture: the title might be simply: "The Conqueror." There he is in his lonely eminence, midst a crowd.



The entire Bush outfit is now discredited. I know because I was in the Navy and learned that whatever happens in the military, the responsibility belongs to the man in charge. Hitler understood that and checked out as the Allies closed in. His fellow German "leaders" were rounded up and stood trial and were held responsible for the whole batch of crimes the Nazis perpetrated. Long jail sentences, further suicides, universal obloquy. No rehabilitation yet.

I do not see how those utterly awful, damning, outrageous, sickening photographs are going to be lived down by any of the lot who oversaw the enterprise of which they are now the single most famous element. And they are likely to remain so as long as the memory of man runneth over these years. The strongest nation in the world?s history is caught in the most disreputable postures of the modern era. Gross, tasteless, cruel, pornographic torture engaged in for "intelligence."

What was needed was precisely some intelligence, but it was and is not available to this bandit Bush regime. True intelligence is spiritual insight, and that is what is entirely wanting at our top levels, because the Spirit bloweth where it listeth; and it is plain it listeth not in the direction of our Eminences these days. We are hoist as a nation. We are shamed in the world?s eyes, every one of us, for complicity in this whole awful thing. It is cousin-german to the murder of Christ. Who did it? We did it.

Where is the Congress when we need it? When shall there be a motion to impeach one or more of the posturers at the top of the political heap? When shall there be a rising up of the people with a mighty rejection of our so-called Establishment? When, in the name of God, will there be a retreat from Iraq and an apology issued to Iraq and the world for a terrible transgression?


May 8, 2004
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#95 at 05-08-2004 01:40 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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05-08-2004, 01:40 AM #95
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#96 at 05-08-2004 01:40 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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05-08-2004, 01:40 AM #96
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#97 at 05-08-2004 02:24 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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05-08-2004, 02:24 AM #97
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Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Oh my! :shock:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#98 at 05-08-2004 02:24 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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05-08-2004, 02:24 AM #98
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Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Oh my! :shock:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#99 at 05-08-2004 02:25 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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05-08-2004, 02:25 AM #99
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Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Oh mee oh my! :shock:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#100 at 05-08-2004 02:25 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
---
05-08-2004, 02:25 AM #100
Join Date
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Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Oh mee oh my! :shock:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
-----------------------------------------