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Thread: The Media and Us - Page 5







Post#101 at 05-08-2004 02:25 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Oh meeeee oh my! :shock:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#102 at 05-08-2004 02:25 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Oh meeeee oh my! :shock:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#103 at 05-08-2004 08:03 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,501]
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Re: Military Cult

Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
What were they?
Any other option you would reject out of hand so there is no point even discussing it.







Post#104 at 05-08-2004 08:03 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,501]
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Re: Military Cult

Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
What were they?
Any other option you would reject out of hand so there is no point even discussing it.







Post#105 at 05-08-2004 08:35 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Vince 'The Pervert' Lamb '59
I'll tell you that rimming or a rimjob is having your anus licked. I've had it done to me once--it was quite pleasurable!
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Makes one wonder what all the fuss in Washington is about, huh? I mean, is Vince "The Pervert" Lamb the only one who can appreciate a well-place tongue?







Post#106 at 05-08-2004 08:35 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Vince 'The Pervert' Lamb '59
I'll tell you that rimming or a rimjob is having your anus licked. I've had it done to me once--it was quite pleasurable!
p.s. Had any good rim jobs or daisy chains lately, dude? Pee yew :!:
No, but I'm sure that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison have.
Makes one wonder what all the fuss in Washington is about, huh? I mean, is Vince "The Pervert" Lamb the only one who can appreciate a well-place tongue?







Post#107 at 05-08-2004 09:07 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Makes one wonder what all the fuss in Washington is about, huh? I mean, is Vince "The Pervert" Lamb the only one who can appreciate a well-place tongue?
Perhaps, my dear Mr. Lamb you might wish to consider the matter of consent. I wonder if the Iraqis enter into an agreement to join the S&M Rough Trade club run by the Americans. Were they given a "safe word" that would halt things when it got a bit harsh?







Post#108 at 05-08-2004 09:07 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Makes one wonder what all the fuss in Washington is about, huh? I mean, is Vince "The Pervert" Lamb the only one who can appreciate a well-place tongue?
Perhaps, my dear Mr. Lamb you might wish to consider the matter of consent. I wonder if the Iraqis enter into an agreement to join the S&M Rough Trade club run by the Americans. Were they given a "safe word" that would halt things when it got a bit harsh?







Post#109 at 05-08-2004 09:25 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Makes one wonder what all the fuss in Washington is about, huh? I mean, is Vince "The Pervert" Lamb the only one who can appreciate a well-place tongue?
Perhaps, my dear Mr. Lamb you might wish to consider the matter of consent. I wonder if the Iraqis enter into an agreement to join the S&M Rough Trade club run by the Americans. Were they given a "safe word" that would halt things when it got a bit harsh?
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies. Pushing the limits of danger and pain within the context of pleasure is the perversion of S&M. Something I would think "The Pervert" would be well versed in.

Save for the fact that he is most likely a fraud and not a pervert at all. He just plays one on the internet.







Post#110 at 05-08-2004 09:25 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Makes one wonder what all the fuss in Washington is about, huh? I mean, is Vince "The Pervert" Lamb the only one who can appreciate a well-place tongue?
Perhaps, my dear Mr. Lamb you might wish to consider the matter of consent. I wonder if the Iraqis enter into an agreement to join the S&M Rough Trade club run by the Americans. Were they given a "safe word" that would halt things when it got a bit harsh?
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies. Pushing the limits of danger and pain within the context of pleasure is the perversion of S&M. Something I would think "The Pervert" would be well versed in.

Save for the fact that he is most likely a fraud and not a pervert at all. He just plays one on the internet.







Post#111 at 05-08-2004 09:33 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies.
As usual, Mr. Saari is quite correct, and you are wrong.







Post#112 at 05-08-2004 09:33 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies.
As usual, Mr. Saari is quite correct, and you are wrong.







Post#113 at 05-08-2004 11:13 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies.
As usual, Mr. Saari is quite correct, and you are wrong.
Perhaps the poster might elaborate on her understanding of what Mr. Saari was saying with respect to the nature of S&M and the "matter of consent"?







Post#114 at 05-08-2004 11:13 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies.
As usual, Mr. Saari is quite correct, and you are wrong.
Perhaps the poster might elaborate on her understanding of what Mr. Saari was saying with respect to the nature of S&M and the "matter of consent"?







Post#115 at 05-08-2004 11:25 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies.
As usual, Mr. Saari is quite correct, and you are wrong.
Perhaps the poster might elaborate on her understanding of what Mr. Saari was saying with respect to the nature of S&M and the "matter of consent"?
I actually did some research on the subject.







Post#116 at 05-08-2004 11:25 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Re: Agreeable

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
My dear Mr. Saari, the entire premise of S&M is strictly based upon the notion of Master and slave. Hence no such "matter of consent" applies.
As usual, Mr. Saari is quite correct, and you are wrong.
Perhaps the poster might elaborate on her understanding of what Mr. Saari was saying with respect to the nature of S&M and the "matter of consent"?
I actually did some research on the subject.







Post#117 at 05-08-2004 11:25 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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I don't personally engage in that kind of sex play, but I understand from those who do that the master/slave routine is an agreed-upon fiction, undertaken with the consent of both parties. A common practice is to have some kind of "stop" signal for the sub to use when things cross a line and become no fun any more.







Post#118 at 05-08-2004 11:25 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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I don't personally engage in that kind of sex play, but I understand from those who do that the master/slave routine is an agreed-upon fiction, undertaken with the consent of both parties. A common practice is to have some kind of "stop" signal for the sub to use when things cross a line and become no fun any more.







Post#119 at 05-08-2004 11:31 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Media Revolt: A Manifesto by the blogger David Neiwert.







Post#120 at 05-08-2004 11:31 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Media Revolt: A Manifesto by the blogger David Neiwert.







Post#121 at 05-08-2004 09:11 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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No Fear

Make no mistake: every regime that tortures does so in the name of salvation, some superior goal, some promise of paradise. Call it communism, call it the free market, call it the free world, call it the national interest, call it fascism, call it the leader, call it civilisation, call it the service of God, call it the need for information; call it what you will, the cost of paradise, the promise of some sort of paradise, Ivan Karamazov continues to whisper to us, will always be hell for at least one person somewhere, sometime.


An uncomfortable truth: the American and British soldiers in Iraq, like torturers everywhere, do not think of themselves as evil, but rather as guardians of the common good, dedicated patriots who get their hands soiled and endure perhaps some sleepless nights in order to deliver the blind ignorant majority from violence and anxiety. Nor are the motives of the demonised enemy significant, not even the fact that they are naked and under the boot because they dared to resist a foreign power occupying their land.



And if it turns out - a statistical certainty - that at least one of the victims is innocent of what he is accused, as blameless as the children mentioned by Ivan Karamazov, that does not matter either. He must suffer the fate of the supposedly guilty: everything justified in the name of a higher mission, state stability in the time of Saddam, and now, in the post-Saddam era, making the same country and the whole region stable for democracy. So those who support the present operations in Iraq are no different from citizens in all those other lands where torture is a tedious fact of life, all of them needing to face Ivan's question, whether they would consciously be able to accept that their dreams of heaven depend on an eternal inferno of distress for one innocent human being; or whether, like Alyosha, they would softly reply: "No, I do not consent."

That is the real question to humanity thrown up by the photos of those suffering bodies in the stark rooms of Iraq, an agony - let us not forget - about to be perpetrated again today and tomorrow in so many prisons everywhere else on our sad, anonymous planet as one man with the power of life and death in his godlike hands approaches another who is totally defenceless.

Are we that scared? Are we so scared that we are willing to knowingly let others perpetrate, in the dark and in our name, acts of terror that will eternally corrode and corrupt us?







Post#122 at 05-08-2004 09:11 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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No Fear

Make no mistake: every regime that tortures does so in the name of salvation, some superior goal, some promise of paradise. Call it communism, call it the free market, call it the free world, call it the national interest, call it fascism, call it the leader, call it civilisation, call it the service of God, call it the need for information; call it what you will, the cost of paradise, the promise of some sort of paradise, Ivan Karamazov continues to whisper to us, will always be hell for at least one person somewhere, sometime.


An uncomfortable truth: the American and British soldiers in Iraq, like torturers everywhere, do not think of themselves as evil, but rather as guardians of the common good, dedicated patriots who get their hands soiled and endure perhaps some sleepless nights in order to deliver the blind ignorant majority from violence and anxiety. Nor are the motives of the demonised enemy significant, not even the fact that they are naked and under the boot because they dared to resist a foreign power occupying their land.



And if it turns out - a statistical certainty - that at least one of the victims is innocent of what he is accused, as blameless as the children mentioned by Ivan Karamazov, that does not matter either. He must suffer the fate of the supposedly guilty: everything justified in the name of a higher mission, state stability in the time of Saddam, and now, in the post-Saddam era, making the same country and the whole region stable for democracy. So those who support the present operations in Iraq are no different from citizens in all those other lands where torture is a tedious fact of life, all of them needing to face Ivan's question, whether they would consciously be able to accept that their dreams of heaven depend on an eternal inferno of distress for one innocent human being; or whether, like Alyosha, they would softly reply: "No, I do not consent."

That is the real question to humanity thrown up by the photos of those suffering bodies in the stark rooms of Iraq, an agony - let us not forget - about to be perpetrated again today and tomorrow in so many prisons everywhere else on our sad, anonymous planet as one man with the power of life and death in his godlike hands approaches another who is totally defenceless.

Are we that scared? Are we so scared that we are willing to knowingly let others perpetrate, in the dark and in our name, acts of terror that will eternally corrode and corrupt us?







Post#123 at 05-09-2004 02:40 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Lambaste

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Eagen
Lest anyone think that this will be one of those white washes as sometimes occur in police brutality cases, have no fear. The military has a glorious history of hanging 50 rather than letting one guilty bastard go free. The institution is pathologically incapable of doing otherwise. So the CID, FBI, et al will get their men . . . or as it appears at this time, women, as they would have done prior to CBS?s report. Only it would have been done without the media circus, finger pointing, Arab anger, and risk to troops in the field. Regardless, in the end justice will be just as swift and sure, but had it been done in the manner I would have preferred, the degree of risk faced by our personnel would not have been as great, and numerous spleens here abouts would have had no opportunity for venting. More?s the pity. I am now in the ?lambaste receive mode.? I?ll even stand still to improve your aim. Exhale and squeeze.
I could see your perspective if the incidents were the isolated actions of a few. To the degree that the practices were widespread, that good intel was widely held to be more important than human rights, and that war crimes might be justified if they lead to good intel, you are wrong.

There would have been Arab anger anyway. In case you hadn't noticed, the Arabs are angry. The policies and practices of the US military were leaking to the Arab street, to Amnesty International, to the Red Cross, and everywhere but the US press.

What the media frenzy does is put the human rights v pragmatic use of force debate back in the limelight. For years, the Bush administration has been erring on the side of use of force rather than rule of law. They seem to take pleasure in finding every gap between the Constitution and the Geneva Convention, creating the category of 'enemy combatants' not protected by any treaty or law. Where they can't twist they law, they break it. They would have preferred to do their dirty deeds in secret, without having to pay a political cost. They would have preferred not to have to endure a public referendum on their actions.

I regret that the US forces on the ground and the US politicians supporting them will now have a more difficult job ahead of them. However, I would place the blame not on CBS, but on the US forces on the ground and the US politicians supporting them. If democracy is to work, if civilian control of the military is to be real, the military cannot be allowed to operate in secrecy.

The price for this lesson learned will be high, but public accountability may be necessary if the lesson is to be well and truly learned.







Post#124 at 05-09-2004 02:40 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Lambaste

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Eagen
Lest anyone think that this will be one of those white washes as sometimes occur in police brutality cases, have no fear. The military has a glorious history of hanging 50 rather than letting one guilty bastard go free. The institution is pathologically incapable of doing otherwise. So the CID, FBI, et al will get their men . . . or as it appears at this time, women, as they would have done prior to CBS?s report. Only it would have been done without the media circus, finger pointing, Arab anger, and risk to troops in the field. Regardless, in the end justice will be just as swift and sure, but had it been done in the manner I would have preferred, the degree of risk faced by our personnel would not have been as great, and numerous spleens here abouts would have had no opportunity for venting. More?s the pity. I am now in the ?lambaste receive mode.? I?ll even stand still to improve your aim. Exhale and squeeze.
I could see your perspective if the incidents were the isolated actions of a few. To the degree that the practices were widespread, that good intel was widely held to be more important than human rights, and that war crimes might be justified if they lead to good intel, you are wrong.

There would have been Arab anger anyway. In case you hadn't noticed, the Arabs are angry. The policies and practices of the US military were leaking to the Arab street, to Amnesty International, to the Red Cross, and everywhere but the US press.

What the media frenzy does is put the human rights v pragmatic use of force debate back in the limelight. For years, the Bush administration has been erring on the side of use of force rather than rule of law. They seem to take pleasure in finding every gap between the Constitution and the Geneva Convention, creating the category of 'enemy combatants' not protected by any treaty or law. Where they can't twist they law, they break it. They would have preferred to do their dirty deeds in secret, without having to pay a political cost. They would have preferred not to have to endure a public referendum on their actions.

I regret that the US forces on the ground and the US politicians supporting them will now have a more difficult job ahead of them. However, I would place the blame not on CBS, but on the US forces on the ground and the US politicians supporting them. If democracy is to work, if civilian control of the military is to be real, the military cannot be allowed to operate in secrecy.

The price for this lesson learned will be high, but public accountability may be necessary if the lesson is to be well and truly learned.







Post#125 at 05-09-2004 02:32 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Re: Lambaste

Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I regret that the US forces on the ground and the US politicians supporting them will now have a more difficult job ahead of them. However, I would place the blame not on CBS, but on the US forces on the ground and the US politicians supporting them. If democracy is to work, if civilian control of the military is to be real, the military cannot be allowed to operate in secrecy.
In order to function effectively, the military must very often be able to work in secrecy. This is an inescapable fact of life.

Which is why the military is necessarily so dependent on a culture of honesty, and why whoever was involved in this is going to have to be dealt with harshly.
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