Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: The Media and Us - Page 23







Post#551 at 06-04-2004 12:22 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
---
06-04-2004, 12:22 AM #551
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Irish Hills, Michigan
Posts
1,997

Don't give W any ideas. He has trouble enough with the ones he has!
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#552 at 06-04-2004 10:02 AM by Ciao [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 907]
---
06-04-2004, 10:02 AM #552
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
907

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Don't give W any ideas. He has trouble enough with the ones he has!
and Pakistan has far more deadly weapons than Iraq, in fact, they detonated a nuclear weapon in 1999 to announce their entrance into the world of nuclear powers.
Plus the country is by far less stable than Iraq ever was in the past twenty years. If memory serves correct, Musharraf came to power via a coup in August/September 1998. That means he's been controlling that country for only six years!
Pakistanis have also threatened their neighbor India on many occasion. In fact fighting over Kashmir never seems to cease. And there have been terrorist raids in India by Pakistani militants bent on killing high ranking officials.
Yet somehow, because Musharraf kisses Bush's ass, he gets a get out of jail free card. Which proves to you that all of the Iraq War propaganda was just that, propaganda.
If all it takes is one nuke to get the US to kiss your ass, then obviously Saddam was light years away from obtaining a new one in March 2003 :lol:







Post#553 at 06-04-2004 10:21 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
06-04-2004, 10:21 AM #553
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
While dissent remains always acceptable, the ways to express uit do contract in wartime, unless you simply don't care about the effects.
Huh?
:?: :?: :?:
It looks like your fingers got a little out of control when typing. :wink:
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#554 at 06-04-2004 11:02 AM by Agent Mulder [at joined Jun 2002 #posts 9]
---
06-04-2004, 11:02 AM #554
Join Date
Jun 2002
Posts
9

Quote Originally Posted by Terminator X
Um, have Al-Qaeda operatives been establishing sleeper cells in Pakistan?
Oh whoops, I forgot - Pakistan was the headquarters of Al-Qaeda.
Guess we should invade that military dictatorship/threat to its neighbors/nuclear power soon before the shit hits the fan :lol:
Glad to have you on board, Terminator!! I assume you'll be voting for Bush, now that you understand the threat. A majority of Middle Eastern states, including Iraq, were sponsoring Al Qaeda.

I'll be sending along your "vast right-wing conspiracy" kit with the secret decoder ring promptly.

If you have any beef with the one-country-at-a-time-(prioritizing-the-countries-we-are-already-at-war-with-and-whose-oil-is-already-off-market-such-as-Iraq)-then-wait-to-see-whether-the-others-change-their-behavior-or-collapse-like-dominos strategy, we're all open to suggestions. Should Iran be next, or should we give the student revolutionaries there one more year to solve the problem themselves? Is Pakistan's behavior sufficiently reversed now, or should we hit them anyway? Should we just let India do it for us?

Should we say to hell with American troops lives, let's just invade all the countries at once just so liberals can't accuse us of being inconsistent? Some of us think it was pretty smart to start with a country we might be able to convert into a democracy at a cost of less than 1000 American lives, but all that liberal sarcasm really stings, so maybe you're right. Screw the troops!

Maybe it was unwise to assume the Democrats would have America's best interests at heart rather than be willing to do anything to gain power.

Personally, I think we should stop giving Egypt billions of dollars of aid every year until their anti-American propaganda broadcasts cease, but strangely, even the Democrats haven't made this an issue, so I must be wrong.

These are all important questions that we wrestle with every day. Welcome to the fold!







Post#555 at 06-04-2004 01:12 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
---
06-04-2004, 01:12 PM #555
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Irish Hills, Michigan
Posts
1,997



http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame84.html

Agent is a sinister and elusive opponent who usually works in concert with other Agents. Agent generally uses standard combat techniques, but differs from other Warriors in that he is in the employ of some organization. The organization may be political, commercial, or even criminal, and it?s Agent?s job to post messages that advance his employer?s interests. For example, several Agents who have been hired to promote a new theater production will invade theater discussion forums, and while energetically plumping for their own production, they will pick fights, spread malicious gossip and post fraudulent reviews about competing productions. Some Agents are benign shills, while others are malicious crusaders. Agents typically use hit and run tactics to avoid detection, but sometimes they can be detected by alert forum members who have seen them in other forums, or they may arouse suspicion by the obsessive monotony of their postings.
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#556 at 06-04-2004 01:16 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
---
06-04-2004, 01:16 PM #556
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Irish Hills, Michigan
Posts
1,997

Quote Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
Welcome to the fold!
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#557 at 06-04-2004 01:20 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
06-04-2004, 01:20 PM #557
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
Welcome to the fold!
Personal insults, the last refuge of those who've lost the argument. 8)







Post#558 at 06-04-2004 01:33 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
---
06-04-2004, 01:33 PM #558
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Confederate States of America
Posts
2,303

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59


http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame84.html

Agent is a sinister and elusive opponent who usually works in concert with other Agents. Agent generally uses standard combat techniques, but differs from other Warriors in that he is in the employ of some organization. The organization may be political, commercial, or even criminal, and it?s Agent?s job to post messages that advance his employer?s interests. For example, several Agents who have been hired to promote a new theater production will invade theater discussion forums, and while energetically plumping for their own production, they will pick fights, spread malicious gossip and post fraudulent reviews about competing productions. Some Agents are benign shills, while others are malicious crusaders. Agents typically use hit and run tactics to avoid detection, but sometimes they can be detected by alert forum members who have seen them in other forums, or they may arouse suspicion by the obsessive monotony of their postings.

Hehehe. Good one!
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#559 at 06-04-2004 02:26 PM by Ciao [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 907]
---
06-04-2004, 02:26 PM #559
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
907

Quote Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
Quote Originally Posted by Terminator X
Um, have Al-Qaeda operatives been establishing sleeper cells in Pakistan?
Oh whoops, I forgot - Pakistan was the headquarters of Al-Qaeda.
Guess we should invade that military dictatorship/threat to its neighbors/nuclear power soon before the shit hits the fan :lol:
Glad to have you on board, Terminator!! I assume you'll be voting for Bush, now that you understand the threat. A majority of Middle Eastern states, including Iraq, were sponsoring Al Qaeda.

I'll be sending along your "vast right-wing conspiracy" kit with the secret decoder ring promptly.

If you have any beef with the one-country-at-a-time-(prioritizing-the-countries-we-are-already-at-war-with-and-whose-oil-is-already-off-market-such-as-Iraq)-then-wait-to-see-whether-the-others-change-their-behavior-or-collapse-like-dominos strategy, we're all open to suggestions. Should Iran be next, or should we give the student revolutionaries there one more year to solve the problem themselves? Is Pakistan's behavior sufficiently reversed now, or should we hit them anyway? Should we just let India do it for us?

Should we say to hell with American troops lives, let's just invade all the countries at once just so liberals can't accuse us of being inconsistent? Some of us think it was pretty smart to start with a country we might be able to convert into a democracy at a cost of less than 1000 American lives, but all that liberal sarcasm really stings, so maybe you're right. Screw the troops!

Maybe it was unwise to assume the Democrats would have America's best interests at heart rather than be willing to do anything to gain power.

Personally, I think we should stop giving Egypt billions of dollars of aid every year until their anti-American propaganda broadcasts cease, but strangely, even the Democrats haven't made this an issue, so I must be wrong.

These are all important questions that we wrestle with every day. Welcome to the fold!
I can only drum up four countries the United States has invaded while scoring a major victory for its interests.

1) Mexico. 1848. Method used Colonization.
The United States relied on colonization to render the effect of Mexico's authority over California and New Mexico provinces null and void.

2) The Confederate States of America. 1865. Method used Scorched Earth
The United States exhausted the resources of its enemy, destroyed much of its enemy's economy, and decimated the population of an entire generation.

3/4) Germany/Japan. 1945. Method used Scorched earth.
The United States cannot take full credit for dismantling the Third Reich. Such credit should obviously be shared with the now defunct U.S.S.R.
Victory was acheived by wreaking destruction that took decades to rebuild from.


Some how, people think that invade=end to problems.
I don't know why. That old crusader blood must have trickled down.
But there are your two solutions. Colonize, or blow 'em all to hell, women and children notwithstanding.

And by the way, I'm voting for Kerry, because his hair is amazing, and he doesn't quote Scripture in his speeches.


Signed,

Never read the Bible, nor wanted to.







Post#560 at 06-04-2004 02:46 PM by Agent Mulder [at joined Jun 2002 #posts 9]
---
06-04-2004, 02:46 PM #560
Join Date
Jun 2002
Posts
9

Quote Originally Posted by Terminator X
And by the way, I'm voting for Kerry, because his hair is amazing, and he doesn't quote Scripture in his speeches.
Interesting priorities.

You're right about his hair, but wrong about scripture; it's a minor point, though, so you can Google it yourself.

Hmm... I wonder if Kerry's hair would be an asset in the WOT...

"Look at the infidel president's hair! I no longer wish to kill Americans and spread Islam throught the world!"

Naaa...







Post#561 at 06-04-2004 03:06 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
06-04-2004, 03:06 PM #561
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Agent is a sinister and elusive opponent who usually works in concert with other Agents. Agent generally uses standard combat techniques, but differs from other Warriors in that he is in the employ of some organization. The organization may be political, commercial, or even criminal, and it?s Agent?s job to post messages that advance his employer?s interests. For example, several Agents who have been hired to promote a new theater production will invade theater discussion forums, and while energetically plumping for their own production, they will pick fights, spread malicious gossip and post fraudulent reviews about competing productions. Some Agents are benign shills, while others are malicious crusaders. Agents typically use hit and run tactics to avoid detection, but sometimes they can be detected by alert forum members who have seen them in other forums, or they may arouse suspicion by the obsessive monotony of their postings.
The Flame Warrior site has been updated, I see. Mr. Mulder certainly fits that description.

(I also have suspicions about "msm" and "eric cumis" (who used to go under the name of "firemind" some time back).







Post#562 at 06-04-2004 03:24 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
---
06-04-2004, 03:24 PM #562
Join Date
Mar 2003
Location
Where the Northwest meets the Southwest
Posts
9,198

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
Welcome to the fold!
Personal insults, the last refuge of those who've lost the argument. 8)
I hear a buzzing noise.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#563 at 06-04-2004 03:37 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
06-04-2004, 03:37 PM #563
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Personal insults, the last refuge of those who've lost the argument. 8)
I hear a buzzing noise.
The enemy of mine enemy is my friend. Now,
repeat after me: al Qaeda ain't so bad,
it's Dubya who we worry about. bin Laden's
not nearly as frightening as Dubya is. Saddam,
shazzam, what we need is real regime change,
right in our own backyard!
Peace and love
to all. Can't we all just get along, now? :wink:







Post#564 at 06-04-2004 06:33 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,501]
---
06-04-2004, 06:33 PM #564
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Kalamazoo MI
Posts
4,501

Quote Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
If you have any beef with the one-country-at-a-time-(prioritizing-the-countries-we-are-already-at-war-with-and-whose-oil-is-already-off-market-such-as-Iraq)-then-wait-to-see-whether-the-others-change-their-behavior-or-collapse-like-dominos strategy, we're all open to suggestions.
This is BS. Regime change had nothing to do with the War on Terror or al Qaeda. The purpose for the war is given here.

Note that terrorism isn't even mentioned. At the time it was written al Qaeda wasn't even on the radar (it was before the embassy bombings in August 1998). Two-thirds of the signers of this document have been involved in shaping adminstration policy towards Iraq. Eight are currently serving in the administration (Abrams, Armitage, Bolton, Dobriansky, Rodman, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Zoellick). Four are or were influential adminstration foreign policy advisors (Schneider, Khalilzad, Kristol, Perle). It is also a fact that regime change in Iraq was discussed as a major administration priority before 911.

Taken together, it is clear that had 911 never occurred or al Qaeda didn't exist, the US would still have invaded Iraq. Thus, to say that the Iraq operation is part a series of regime changes to combat terrorism is flatly wrong. Not only that, but you are tarring the Bush administration as warmongers. Show me where the Bush adminstration has expressed intent to invade countries other than Iraq.







Post#565 at 06-04-2004 11:53 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
---
06-04-2004, 11:53 PM #565
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Irish Hills, Michigan
Posts
1,997

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I hear a buzzing noise.
Well, are you going to stand there, or are you going to swat it?
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#566 at 06-05-2004 01:00 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
06-05-2004, 01:00 AM #566
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
The Flame Warrior site has been updated, I see. Mr. Mulder certainly fits that description.

(I also have suspicions about "msm" and "eric cumis" (who used to go under the name of "firemind" some time back).
Yeah, I had suspicions about all of those, too. You can't help it when a poster is always parroting the Bush League line, and never wants to talk about anything else, and no matter what the discussion is finds a way to turn it around to a defense of Bush administration policies and/or tar-and-feathering Bush critics, either the ones here or the prominent ones in public. Real posters usually have a number of interests and are not so monotonous.







Post#567 at 06-05-2004 01:04 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
---
06-05-2004, 01:04 AM #567
Join Date
Mar 2003
Location
Where the Northwest meets the Southwest
Posts
9,198

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I hear a buzzing noise.
Well, are you going to stand there, or are you going to swat it?
A gnat is not worth my time nor can it do much damage anyway.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#568 at 06-10-2004 10:44 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
---
06-10-2004, 10:44 PM #568
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Irish Hills, Michigan
Posts
1,997

Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
The Flame Warrior site has been updated, I see.
It has. The latest additions are a series of partisan flame warrior in a special section of their own. I guess this election year has produced an unusual number of politically motivated flame warriors, a high enough number for Mr. Reed to notice. Here is the URL for the first in the series:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/fwdr1.html

I think we can recognize one or two of these here on T4T!

Back to Kiff's post and the comment re: Agents.

Mr. Mulder certainly fits that description.
Yes, he does, or, rather, did. I haven't seen him around since I posted the Agent description and people agreed with me.

(I also have suspicions about "msm" and "eric cumis" (who used to go under the name of "firemind" some time back).
You aren't alone. Have we seen them around since "Agent Mulder" was outed?
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#569 at 06-14-2004 07:38 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 07:38 PM #569
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Drudge has this up. If it checks out, it'll be no shock, but it is the opening phase of the PR blitz.

http://drudgereport.com/bc1.htm

The following is quoted without intention of profit or infringement for discussion only.




XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX MON JUNE 14, 2004 18:00:24 ET XXXXX

CBS RADIO HEAD ORDERS 'MUST CARRY' TO STATIONS FOR CLINTON BOOK SPECIAL

**Exclusive**

Move over Rush Limbaugh!

Bill Clinton is set to hit the talkradio waves with a live special promoting his new book -- one that CBS has ordered a "must carry" directive for all of its news affiliates, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

MORE

Each and every one of CBS's news and talk stations will be required to take the Clinton book radio special, now scheduled for next 6 PM ET Thursday -- whether local programming management wants it or not!

"It's going to be like one big commercial for the book! Why didn't Mr. Clinton's publisher just buy an hour," one angry executive for a CBS news station said late Monday. "This is not news, this is marketing. I already feel dirty!"

MORE

Other CBS radio excutives are excited about Clinton finally appearing on live talkradio.

"I can't wait for the callers," said one CBS radio suit.

The one hour session titled "CLINTON CONNECTS WITH AMERICA" will be moderated by CBS EARLY SHOW host Harry Smith.

The program appears to be part of a larger cross-promotion platform package with Clinton and CBS parent VIACOM.

The former president is set to sit with CBS's Dan Rather at the Clinton library in Arkansas for Sunday's CBS 60 MINUTES.

Developing...



CBS RADIO HEAD ORDERS 'MUST CARRY' TO ALL STATIONS FOR CLINTON BOOK SPECIAL
Mon Jun 14 2004 17:08:11 ET

From: Rivers, Steve
To: @Infinity PD News; @Infinity PD Talk
Cc: @Infinity GMs Eastern Mid-Size; @Infinity GMs Eastern Region; Sykes, John; Hollander, Joel L; @Infinity Regional VPs; @Infinity Regional Directors of Engineering
Subject: Clinton Broadcast
Importance: High

I wanted to give all of you a heads up regarding a "MUST CARRY" event coming up with former president Clinton. Mark Mason will be forwarding you the vital information, the 800#, link information, etc. very soon. There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes at the moment. The event will be 60 minutes, and a format clock is being designed to accommodate 12 minutes of commercials. Bill will be discussing his book and taking calls from listeners across America. Your listeners. At this time we are trying to get advance audio passages from the book that you will be able to run a week ahead to promote your broadcast.

Stand by for further details and thanks for the cooperation on what could be a huge event for us.

Riv
Steve Rivers
President/Programming
Infinity Broadcasting







Post#570 at 06-14-2004 07:43 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 07:43 PM #570
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Palme
Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Don't give W any ideas. He has trouble enough with the ones he has!
Yet somehow, because Musharraf kisses Bush's ass, he gets a get out of jail free card. Which proves to you that all of the Iraq War propaganda was just that, propaganda.
No, he gets out of it because he's useful to America. That's what matters.







Post#571 at 06-14-2004 07:46 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 07:46 PM #571
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Palme

Colonize, or blow 'em all to hell, women and children notwithstanding.
In the Fourth Turning, if S&H's theory is right that is quite likely to be a common tactic on all sides, the moreso since the Boomers (so far) have shown a tendency to be less like the Missionaries (who were quite ruthless enough) and more like the Transcendentals (who raised ruthlessness to a madness).

This coming mood is precisely what S&H were warning about. Bush is likely to be one of the most restrained Boomer Presidents we have, future ones will probably be more precipitate.







Post#572 at 06-14-2004 07:51 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 07:51 PM #572
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
Quote Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
If you have any beef with the one-country-at-a-time-(prioritizing-the-countries-we-are-already-at-war-with-and-whose-oil-is-already-off-market-such-as-Iraq)-then-wait-to-see-whether-the-others-change-their-behavior-or-collapse-like-dominos strategy, we're all open to suggestions.
This is BS. Regime change had nothing to do with the War on Terror or al Qaeda. The purpose for the war is given here.
Again, you read too much into minor things.



Taken together, it is clear that had 911 never occurred or al Qaeda didn't exist, the US would still have invaded Iraq.
Sooner or later, yes, that probably would have happened. The way the first Gulf War ended made a second one essentially inevitable. It's highly unlikely to have happened during the Bush years, though, for basic political reasons.


Thus, to say that the Iraq operation is part a series of regime changes to combat terrorism is flatly wrong.
You need to provide some evidence of that to make such a sweeping statement. What you linked to is not evidence.







Post#573 at 06-14-2004 07:53 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 07:53 PM #573
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
The Flame Warrior site has been updated, I see.
It has. The latest additions are a series of partisan flame warrior in a special section of their own. I guess this election year has produced an unusual number of politically motivated flame warriors, a high enough number for Mr. Reed to notice. Here is the URL for the first in the series:
Over on rec.arts.sf.written and rec.arts.sf.science, it seems like every thread is trying to turn into a political argument between pro and anti Bush types, with angry libertarians every which way as a side-show. The political threads are running to hundreds of posts, and repeat endlessly.







Post#574 at 06-14-2004 08:15 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 08:15 PM #574
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Quote Originally Posted by Witchiepoo
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Witchiepoo
Quote Originally Posted by Terminator X
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
Bush speaks for America as a whole right now, and nobody else.
Boy, how nuts are you?
Hee hee. America needs speech therapy.
I think what the Hopeful -- the Cynic thus being quieted -- is trying to say is that, much like Clinton's era, Bush is merely leading the way most of America wants to be led.
Dude, have you not seen the latest opinion polls? Bush's approval ratings have plummeted.
Not really, as in they were never really very high to begin with. It was the high approval numbers after 911 that were the illusion. Note that in spite of everything that's happened to Bush's numbers, Kerry's haven't significantly moved.

I predicted well over a year ago that Bush's numbers might at times drop below 50% (or just a bit lower), but would rebound back to about there.

Regarding which:



Right now, Gallup shows Bush trailing Kerry by 6 pts, which isn't much given all the bad news that has been piled on lately. Note that by Gallup's poll, we've been seeing 'gyration' since the start of the year, someting else I was predicting a year or more ago.




When we add in Nader, according to Gallup we get:



The Gallup poll data comes from: http://www.gallup.com/content/?ci=11941

The Zogby data comes from: http://www.zogby.com/

I'm only just now beginning to pay much real attention to the rolling polls, and even then, despite the spin you'll hear from various factions one each side, it's still very early. This is mid-June. We've got the conventions, the dog-days of summer and the attendant 'silly season' stories ahead, a lot of things left to develop in Iraq, Arabia, and elsewhere, the economy could still go south or stoke higher, we've got the debates, various distractions (and potential soures of problems) like the Olympics, etc yet to come.

That doesn't even allow for the intrigues we're gong to be seeing.

So no matter what you see in the polls, folks, keep a crystal of salt handy for a while yet.







Post#575 at 06-14-2004 08:57 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
---
06-14-2004, 08:57 PM #575
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
9,412

Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

So no matter what you see in the polls, folks, keep a crystal of salt handy for a while yet.
As long as I'm talking about the polls, now that I've begun to pay a little attention to them, the June 2004 Tarrance Battleground poll is out at:

http://www.tarrance.com

It contains a mix of graphs taking as rolling averages, producing somewhat contradictory data, depending on how the question is asked.


One question was: Do you feel that George W. Bush has done his job as President well enough to deserve reelection, or do you feel it is time to give someone new a chance?

Reelect: 48%
Someone new: 49%
Unsure: 3%
---------------------------------------
Interestingly, their job approval results don't match Zogby's:

Approve of GWB's job as President: 50%
Disapprove: 45%
Unsure: 5%
---------------------------------------

Please tell me, for each one, who better represents this quality.

Strong Leader: Bush 56% Kerry 39% Neither 1% Unsure 5%

Cares About People Like Me: Bush 44% Kerry 49% Neither 3% Unsure 5%

Represents My Values: Bush 47% Kerry 47% Neither 2% Unsure 4%

Is Honest and Trustworthy: Bush 46% Kerry 41% Neither 6% Unsure 7%

Says What He Believes: Bush 53% Kerry 36% Neither 3% Unsure 6%

--------------------------------------

Now, interestingly, many of these numbers don't match the numbers recevied from the same group of people, with the questions phrased somewhat differently. Overall, it shows the usual patterns emerging, with the GOP trusted more on foreign policy and the Dems getting a marginal nod on domestic economic matters. Classic Jacksonian attitudes expressed via the two party system.

As I said above, keep the salt handy when studying polling data 5 months out.
-----------------------------------------