This has been a change ongoing since at least 1968. It's changed focus due to trade distortions, but it's still the same relentless progression.Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84
Greenhouse gases weren't important until they were. The same dynamic applies here.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
You're a fool NOT to. I understand, if you are thinking only in selfish terms; what's good for you and for holding on to or expanding the wealth that you have. But, the fact is, your wealth will decline if the country declines. If we (not just you) rely only on the private sector, and thus allow the wealthy and the corporate powers to do whatever they want, and not contribute to society except in the process of doing business for their own profit, then we end up as a banana republic. Contrary to what you said about liberal programs, I don't think you guys on the right fully understand what the results would be in the long run. Only a good society can support good business.
Heck, we've had 35 years of this privatization already, and the results are: gross and expanding inequality, declining middle class and rising poverty, rising threats to the environment, a nagging recession that won't go away, housing becoming unaffordable, education that is failing, infrastructure crumbling, diseases spreading, jobs going overseas and automated, culture declining, racial violence, division and gridlock. "Self-reliance" on the "private sector" for 35 years and counting has resulted in vast growth for China and India, and decline for us in the USA.
And you want more of all this.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 04-15-2015 at 02:05 PM.
The Walton heirs still own a huge percentage of Walmart, but none of the four seem to know anything at all about the business that pays their bills. The same applies to the Koch brothers. Great wealth dissipates slowly, if the tax laws are friendly to it. There are Vanderbilts still living on the largess of the Commodore, nearly 150 years after his death. This is nothing new.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Nations, unlike human beings, are immortal. If the debt accumulated by a nation accrues at a slower rate than the economy grows, the effective debt declines. Its the ratio between GDP and Debt that determines how large it really is. Interest rates determines how much of a burden it is. At the moment, the ratio is reasonable and interest rates are almost zero. If there is any time to borrow and build, it's now.
Infrastructure tends to improve economic efficiency, so the money is really an investment. Add to that, the money spent will pay people, who will spend on consumer goods and personal investments. Whether the growth is higher than the rate of debt accumulation or not, it's all good.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
The point. Although difference in absolute debt when all else is equal (assets and potential for earnings) being in debt for a revenue-generating or cost-saving activity that pays off adequately is a good deal. Borrowing at 4% and earning at 7% makes eminent sense. I would borrow every dollar that I could for such a provable proposition. If you wouldn't, you wither are incompetent in handling money, feel guilt about making a solid income, or are a fool. If you are in business and you do not take advantage of such an opportunity, then someone else will -- and will likely overpower you as a competitor.
For a government, cost savings and increased economic activity for and by taxpayers results in increased tax revenue. Keynesian stimulus practically pays for itself barring an over-stimulated, inflation-heated economy incapable of doing more.Infrastructure tends to improve economic efficiency, so the money is really an investment. Add to that, the money spent will pay people, who will spend on consumer goods and personal investments. Whether the growth is higher than the rate of debt accumulation or not, it's all good.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia weren't immortal and no longer exist on the European map.
Actually, the time to borrow and build was 25 years ago. The time for big business to borrow and build and expand is now.
Who would you borrow it to?
Show that you can get a 7% return in something that does not look like much of a gamble that involves something that you can do that others can't do themselves due to your rare abilities and track record, and people willing to get a 4% return on a passive investment will buy the bonds that you float. Big return on an investment? Sure. The biggest rewards are to be found in pure gambling -- something that I just don't do. I had an opportunity to do so yesterday on a 300-mile round trip. I instead saw an exhibition on Leonardo da Vinci. I'd kick myself if I had missed the exhibition.
Utilities operate that way. They get a reliable return due to captive markets and operate on rigid rules with expensive but generally low-tech equipment with generally a long life. Investor-owned utilities are considered some of the most conservative investments in the stock market. They also have very limited potential for growth in earnings.
I'm not saying that I do that for a living; I'm just telling you how one sort of giant enterprise operates as an economic model.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
The baby boomers obsession with weak government, globalism, open borders, runaway spending on non-essentials, refusal to spend on anything that would better the country as a whole, refusal to spend on any generation younger than themselves, their obsession Human Rights, their obsessions with nuclear disarmament and nuclear non-proliferation is what is getting us into this mess. Why I continue to propose restorationism? Because restorationism is what would get us out of the mess in my opinion: We need a strong government, one that would set up a secure future for our children and grandchildren and rebuild our infrastructure. We need a government that is resolute on our national defense, we need a government in which leaders are selected on merit instead of being selected due to monetary and big money donors. We need a government to take the gloves of in warfare, not merely such things as for example carpet bombing or even in a total war the selected nuclear bombing of lets say an enemy armaments factory producing chemical and nuclear weapons that would be used to kill thousands or our troops an even civilians if allowed to come online and the only way to prevent this is to destroy the enemy weapons factories even if it kill thousands of civilians who happen to live right next to it, this is what was done during WW2 and while a step in the right direction would only be a partial remedy in the current crisis. What I advocate is True tough leadership who would carry out action similar to lets say the scene in the recent hunger games installment that came out a some months back in which the destruction of district 12 is described indeed our forces would comb through a devastated region systematically mopping up any enemy activity or resistance in the aftermath, our forces would have to carry out countless such actions like the capital forces did in the movie throughout the military campaigns of restorationism, mostly in the general pacification of the middle east. These actions and the large-scale pacification of the middle east would be followed by the implementation of the military-administrative regions mentioned in earlier posts, the construction of settlement zones, settlement cities, and administrative cities throughout the Mideast although construction of the proposed cities would be carried out by Arab Muslim labor, and the implementation of the economic reorganization of the middle east. Only then would deterrence be reestablished and our enemies would once again fear and respect American Power.
The 'debt' of a monetary sovereign (e.g. US govt, Japan govt, UK govt, the ECB but not Greece or Germany) is unlike any other debt (i.e., household, business, states and local govts).
Two ways to look at it - it is either (a) never paid off or (b) it is paid off ("rolled over") every quarter - you can actually go the FED's or US Treasury spreadsheets to see this. Been this way since the founding of the government with only Andrew Jackson being stupid enough to come close to paying it off (some economic historians put the resulting economic contraction as worse than that experienced in the 1930s!).
The only economic significance of federal debt is the interest paid on that debt to the extent that it adds to the annual federal deficit.
The only economic significance of federal deficit spending is when added to all other spending, public AND private, puts either (1) too much pressure on the economy's ability to supply causing upward pressure of prices (i.e., inflation) or (2) too little pressure on the economy and you get downward pressure on prices (e.g. disinflation).
That's it, people. And it is the widespread ignorance of that simplicity that is at the root of just about every problem this country and each individual faces today. Destroying that ignorance is what this 4T is about.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
An unhealthy bank borrower, who dies of a heart attack 10 days after making a huge unsecured loan, is not a around to pay either. Neither is a less-than-solid company that goes bankrupt. Lenders assess risk multipliers for cases like that, and nations are not exempt. Greece pays a lot for loans, because they may default. The US, and any number of other stable rich countries, pays no multiplier of any kind. We're not Yugoslavia.
No, 25 years ago was the beginning of the tech-boom, and businesses were using most of the lendable capital. Borrowing was expensive, in relative terms, and would have been higher if we had gone on a spending spree, even one that was less than full-tilt. Plus, we had no need to generate employment. People were working.
Now, money is sitting around collecting no interest ... negative interest in some places, so now is the time to borrow and put people to work.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
The two former entities have some analogies. Both formed in the aftermath of World War I; both disappeared as the result of Nazi aggression (diplomatic aggression in the case of Czechoslovakia and outright war in the case of Yugoslavia; both were revived after World War II only to end up quickly under Commie regimes; both splintered soon after they abandoned Communism. In both cases there are distinct successor states that assumed assets and debt obligations of the former countries based on some agreement to divide assets and responsibilities.
Of course, neither Czechoslovakia (which was two nations grafted together that probably should not have been put together; if anything, Slovakia should have joined Poland) nor Yugoslavia were really nations. They were short-term marriages of convenience whose marriages outlasted the convenience.
Americans borrowed and built heavily in the Double-Zero decade, but the objects for which it borrowed and built proved to have specious reasoning behind them. America would be far better off had the George W. Bush administration pushed corporate investment in plant and equipment that really creates lasting jobs. Barack Obama has been stuck with that, but that may change the political identification of America for a very long time. I see him doing the best sorts of things that Republicans have done in recent decades with few of the vices of aforesaid Republicans. Republicans have sought to bring about a New Gilded Age that would be extremely ugly to current Americans who expect far more out of life than long hours of hard toil under brutal management for near-starvation pay.Actually, the time to borrow and build was 25 years ago. The time for big business to borrow and build and expand is now.
We could be undergoing a major realignment of the political parties. Democrats are picking up voters who used to align with the Republican party -- educated people who have a stake in the political order and are usually very stable in their political orientation... and (1) are generally immune to demagoguery from extremists and (2) are likely to be active in politics even to the extent of participating in get-out-the-vote drives. Republicans are picking up the low-information voters who are most likely to get hurt by reactionary economics and are most likely to turn on the Right. Democrats are on the right side on homosexual rights. Rubes or sophisticates? The Republicans chose to go with the rubes, and they will face some unpleasant consequences for doing so.
The Democrats are now a conservative party with a left wing. The Republican party is a former conservative party tacking so far to the right that it toys with fascism.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 04-16-2015 at 03:14 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
True. We're not Yugoslavia yet. Only a portion of America has the potential to become like Yugoslavia at this point. The rest of America still has the ability or the potential to remain part of the United States. BTW, an old liberal who has pushed for more borrowing for decades and has lived off the borrowing for decades, lives off of it now who dies tomorrow or in a few years or less than a few decades isn't going to be around to pay either. Me, I probably will be around to experience whatever the younger generations are going to experience for several decades.
The time to borrow and build a home was 25 years ago. Twenty five years ago was the beginning of the new construction boom. The time for big business to borrow and build is now. Now, our money is sitting around earning no interest and loosing interest on investments in some places, so now's the time to be smart about using it and keep the bulk of it safe.
Last edited by Classic-X'er; 04-16-2015 at 03:18 PM.
As far as Democrat support and its social representation goes, you are in the minority here.
If they own a huge percentage, they control a huge percentage of the board of directors who represent their interest and vote on behalf of their interest and control/direct the CEO.
I'm not sure that any portion of the US has the potential to become Yugoslavia, unless you mean one of the 50 states. Several would collapse in an instant if they lost Federal funding. Illinois is the most exposed Blue state. The list on the Red side is pretty long. If you count territories, then Puerto Rico is pretty weak financially too.
BTW, is this liberal borrower a real person, or are you drumming-up a strawman?
That's' exactly why the economy will remain weak. Business will not invest without knowing that the investment will pay off, which is doubtful at the moment. Not spending on something will make matters even worse, because no activity means no economy. The best option is a massive infrastructure program. We need everything, so the benefit will accrue before the spending is even finished.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
the family is very rich, but Walmart is huge. Market capitalization is $260 Billion. I think the family together is worth about $120 Billion, and not all in stock. One of the sons is Chairman of the Board. He may or may not be an activist COB, I don't know.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
I'm was thinking realistically based on the economic system that I've been an active participant in, consider myself a part of and have benefited from for my entire life. As long as you're part of the Democrats, the Democrats won't get my vote and my vote will continue to go to the Republicans.
It all depends on which party I'm in? lol Didn't you know I am a small businessman too, and have been "self-reliant" most of my life?
I notice you are unable to reply to or refute my points, so I guess you admit that they are true and they stand as I wrote them. If you realize they are true, then you can't vote for Republicans!
So you can't vote Democratic because you despise liberals?
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
That seems to be the basis on which 40% of our electorate routinely votes.
A for profit or a non profit business owner? Based on views, points and attitude relating to other peoples money, you are on the political non profit side of the spectrum vs the for profit side like me. To you it's just money. Money has no value to you because you don't work for money. To us it's more than just money and if you to stupid to understand that then you don't belong. It's pointless to reply or refute the points of someone who is locked on their point and unable to move or reason beyond their point.
Last edited by Classic-X'er; 04-17-2015 at 01:36 AM.
I suppose so. Anyway, I can't stay long today. The Wicca coven of which I am a member is having an important celebration that requires the sacrifice of an aborted baby to infernal entities with our holy music, A Night on Bald Mountain, in the background. As a leading warlock in the local den of depravity I can't be late or those infernal entities might take it out on me.
(Just kidding. Wicca is an innocuous group that has nothing to do with Satan. For real ugliness just look to the self-proclaimed "Christian" group known as the KKK... and I can hardly think of any music better fitting a Klan meeting than A Night on Bald Mountain -- primitive, barbarous, and nocturnal).
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
I won't vote Democrat because I despise liberals. I can vote Democrat and have done so at the local level.
Are you a strawman? That comment was directed at you and every liberal/progressive who posts on this forum
Business will invest in things that it knows it needs like upgrading from a smaller facility that's cramped and hard to operate efficiently to a larger facility that can operate efficiently and so on.
