Depression isn't the primary emotion in 3T music, it's frustration and disappointment... You know what else had a steeped history in frustration and disappointment? The Harlem Ren! Jazz! German Expressionism!

The kind of art that drowned out everything that came before it. Have you ever thought... You know what was amazing? Music from the 1890's! No! Because Jazz came in and was the genesis for everything that came after. Welcome to 3T music. It's the absolute Genesis of music for the next Saeculum, including the next 2T.

Originally Posted by Tussilago

I don't play music because it's good, but to make a point. In the case of Ultravox and Roxy Music, I wanted to show how far away from the Awakening pop culture had already strayed by 1980-82 in regard to sound, imagination and aesthetics. Not everything was "sullen" during those years either of course (not that I understand why a 3T cannot begin during a mood of "sullenness").

You've posted an impressive list to back up your point, more than I can listen to all at once.

But yes, I think a 3T begins optimistically, as an escape from the failure of the awakening to reach all its expectations (mainly because Americans are not spiritually adept enough to do awakenings right). But the late 2T is rather sullen because of this. In 1980-83 we were hanging around with the same old mood, and there were still the same old peace and counter-culture movements; plus the counter-counter culture. I agree the late 2T early 80s music was not as good or as "awakening" in its power as the earlier awakening music, but I would say that it was still better, and more so, than what followed; and something like "Rainbow Inside My Heart" (1983) and "Rainbow Connection" (1979) could still be composed. And even Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah could be composed in the 1970s and early 80s and released in 1984.

But a duel between us on this could be a long and tedious exercize.

Here's another case. Awakening? I really don't think so:
1982: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6f593X6rv8

A reasonably good song, at least. Not very uplifting to be sure, but nothing like the crap that followed.

But I'll listen more later. Maybe edit this post.

"Land Down Under" sounds very Awakening to me. Good song, and cool hippies too. And the flute riffs, very typical Awakening.

EDIT: That Good Times song sounds like disco, certainly a major trend of the late 1970s. Of course, I like the current Good Time song so much better.

Idealism is never "useless," but too much of a good thing must pass, and so we moved on. After the bright Summer sun and fun, comes the Fall, and we go back to school.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Depression isn't the primary emotion in 3T music, it's frustration and disappointment...

Not much difference there...

You know what else had a steeped history in frustration and disappointment? The Harlem Ren! Jazz! German Expressionism!

The kind of art that drowned out everything that came before it. Have you ever thought... You know what was amazing? Music from the 1890's! No! Because Jazz came in and was the genesis for everything that came after. Welcome to 3T music. It's the absolute Genesis of music for the next Saeculum, including the next 2T.

Hardly. It was all a waste. Lots of sound and fury, with nothing there. 3T music is just ignored by most people today, except maybe Xers on this site! 2T songs are the ones people sing and remember, and are used in commercials and that everyone knows on quiz shows. 3T songs never will be, because there is nothing there in 3T songs. This saeculum's 3T music cannot compare with jazz, sorry. And jazz originated in the previous 2T, like all the arts of the 20th century.

There's no reason why music can't be good during a 3T. The only trouble is, during the recent 3T, it wasn't. That's about all there is to it. The politics was one reason, no doubt. The corporate power was able to take over and shut it all down.

Do you listen to music geared towards adults after 1975?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Not much difference there...

Hardly. It was all a waste. Lots of sound and fury, with nothing there. 3T music is just ignored by most people today, except maybe Xers on this site! 2T songs are the ones people sing and remember, and are used in commercials and that everyone knows on quiz shows. 3T songs never will be, because there is nothing there in 3T songs. This saeculum's 3T music cannot compare with jazz, sorry. And jazz originated in the previous 2T, like all the arts of the 20th century.

There's no reason why music can't be good during a 3T. The only trouble is, during the recent 3T, it wasn't. That's about all there is to it. The politics was one reason, no doubt. The corporate power was able to take over and shut it all down.

Missed this one, I think we posted at the same time.

Depression is most definitely not the same thing as frustration and disappointment. The former is centered around loss, the latter from effort.

And this 3T's music compares pretty well with jazz. It gets fused in there more often in the 3T than any other genre. Also, Jazz did not originate in the 2T, it originated in the 1910's.

Corporate power had little to do with music beyond the top 40 in the 3T, because there was an explosion in independant labels through the 3T, they set up their own distribution network, and effectively killed the ability for there to be a mainstream in music twice over. First with independant labels in the 80's and 90's and then again in the early 2000's with mp3 sharing.

The music of the 3T is also having a strong, lasting impact. This past year, at Bonaroo, GZA played his album Liquid Swords on a side stage while Skrillex was on the main stage. Why do I know this? I don't pay attention to who is playing Bonaroo... I know because a young Millennial was amped because he and his friends got to see it.

The resurgance in flannel in fashion really is referential to 90's grunge. Punk and ska bands have been selling out shows all through the 4T, in a time when it's been harder than ever to work within lower budgets.

Basically mostly what I hear when I hear you talking about music of the 3T is that you grew up, you didn't have the time or energy to find new or interesting music (which is fair enough, I don't devote nearly the amount of time I used to trying to find new music), but then you want to turn around and say that because it wasn't easily available to you by turning the radio dial to a particular station, it was bad music.

Also, I think you don't like rhythm driven songs, which is why you hear all this "fury", which is more indicative of groups from the mid2000's than it is from the core of the 3T.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Do you listen to music geared towards adults after 1975?

There wasn't much to listen to. But what good ones there were, especially before 1985, I heard them, I suppose. The Eagles' New Kid in Town (1977) was the last single I bought; and later on late albums by The Who and Pete Townshend, and I picked up other 70s albums such as Fleetwood Mac's Rumours (dated 1977, how could I forget). Also after 1980, lots of classical (organ especially) and new age ambient.

And in the last year, some pop. If current pop is good, it doesn't matter in the least who it's "geared for." Not in the bleepin' least.

If you are referring to the rainbow songs, they are outstanding, and perfectly adult. Very idealistic, and thus blazing 2T.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Missed this one, I think we posted at the same time.

Depression is most definitely not the same thing as frustration and disappointment. The former is centered around loss, the latter from effort.

Close enough. Not something to listen to, most definitely.

And this 3T's music compares pretty well with jazz. It gets fused in there more often in the 3T than any other genre. Also, Jazz did not originate in the 2T, it originated in the 1910's.

Ragtime did. You may be right though.

We just have to differ on the quality of our 3T music. It stunk, except for new age music. But I am just not interested in the genres that appeal to you. I have a boomer awakening mindset, and you have something different. And I know I have a vast background in music and I play and compose; I can't say about yours.

Corporate power had little to do with music beyond the top 40 in the 3T, because there was an explosion in independent labels through the 3T, they set up their own distribution network, and effectively killed the ability for there to be a mainstream in music twice over. First with independent labels in the 80's and 90's and then again in the early 2000's with mp3 sharing.

But pop music was controlled by a few major labels. I don't know about any independent labels, but there were indie artists, who never got played on corporate radio.

The music of the 3T is also having a strong, lasting impact. This past year, at Bonaroo, GZA played his album Liquid Swords on a side stage while Skrillex was on the main stage. Why do I know this? I don't pay attention to who is playing Bonaroo... I know because a young Millennial was amped because he and his friends got to see it.

The resurgance in flannel in fashion really is referential to 90's grunge. Punk and ska bands have been selling out shows all through the 4T, in a time when it's been harder than ever to work within lower budgets.

Leftover from the 3T, I would say. All of that stuff will pass. Millies like older groups like the Beatles better, and new ones like Bieber and the girl superstars much much better. Who gets 1300,000,000 views and 800,000,000 views on you tube? Not 3T grunge groups. Psy and Bieber, that's who.

Basically mostly what I hear when I hear you talking about music of the 3T is that you grew up, you didn't have the time or energy to find new or interesting music (which is fair enough, I don't devote nearly the amount of time I used to trying to find new music), but then you want to turn around and say that because it wasn't easily available to you by turning the radio dial to a particular station, it was bad music.

In the 2T, you could do that; turn on the radio and hear good music. Not in the 3T. So sure, if you looked far away from the mainstream, you could maybe find it. But I doubt my preferences are anything like yours, anyway. Punk, ska, rap, metal; you can keep all that stuff. I would not go look for it. I had given up mostly on pop and rock by then, because what I heard was so bad; but I heard the most available songs. Meanwhile, I was way out on the fringe in my new age world. That was absorbing, and I became a radio programmer in 1986, and a Fair producer (that included a concert every year). I did lots of looking; plus I got it sent to me or the station. I still broadcast an ambient show on the internet. I would have thought you knew all that about me. It's no secret.

Also, I think you don't like rhythm driven songs, which is why you hear all this "fury", which is more indicative of groups from the mid 2000's than it is from the core of the 3T.

Your sentence is a bit unclear to me. 2T songs can be plenty rhythm driven. Just go down my top favorites 400 list; there's plenty. How about The Beatles songs like You Can't Do That. Or Motown; a classic like My Guy is rhythm driven. But it's also outstanding in every other respect. Or listen to my #1 and say it's not "rhythm driven." The thing about 2T pop music is its quality; not whether it had a driving rhythm or not. 3T music lacks the quality, and it's too downcast. It doesn't appeal to dreamers.

Oh, and the 4T new classic "Good Time" (my fave of 2012) isn't rhythm driven? Come on, you know better than that. And you certainly ought to know the song by now; I've posted it enough times.

Okay I know that this post was originally addressd to Rags...but I have some things to say about the stupidity contained within.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The point you're missing, is that a description of society at large (which IS possible, and is what T4T is) does not = the list of your own experiences.

Sounds like special pleading when you use your own experiences for explainations for everything all the time.

That's good. My only point was that calling cusp2 of Xers, "Yers," is confusing and is not the general practice. The general practice is the Gen Y is a synonym for Millennials. I agree Millennials is a better name for Millennials, and that they prefer it. A better name for the X/Y cusp would be "explorers." I think if people here don't like my name for them, it might be a good project to pick another name for the X/Y cusp. Using letters is a good way of keeping track of whole generations, and it's a good practice to start, now that a generation has been given a letter. Generation A or Alpha will be a good name for the next prophets.

I think you have not been voted to be the name giver of cusps by the Party Committee of Generation Naming. In fact if I remember correctly you weren't even elected to the Party Committee of Generation Naming. <_<

Therefore if the majority chooses to not adopt whatever nonsense you want to name my particular cusp, you're out voted. To bad I can't vote you off the mortal coil--well yet anyway.

As such you have no right declare that a cusp's particular name is this or that. It must of course be a matter of consensus. The consensus is that "Gen Y" is the X/Y cusp period from 1978ish-1985ish. Personally I don't like that name (I prefer to think of myself as an Xer without all this "Yer", "explorer" "whatever" bullshit--and it is bullshit), but it is not up to me. It is a collective decision.

As for "Explorers" where the fuck did you come up with that bullshit? Honestly people my age only want to explore one thing Eric--life without Boomers preaching at us.

I would say if you want to assign letters to generations, do that bullshit on your website so the rest of us who actually know shit from apple butter do not have to forced to be annoyed by that stoopid nonsense. The whole point of using X to name Generation X was because X is the mathmatical symbol for an "unknown quantity". In fact we are not the first generation to be called "Generation X". In Britain the Late 1940s and Early 1950s cohorts were called "Generation X". The name didn't stick.

It did with us though--probably because we responded to it with "whatever".

Originally Posted by Kinser79

I think you have not been voted to be the name giver of cusps by the Party Committee of Generation Naming. In fact if I remember correctly you weren't even elected to the Party Committee of Generation Naming. <_<

And neither were you. No-one should care what your opinion is of what I say. You have admitted that whatever you say to me, has the sole purpose to upset and rile me and entertain yourself.

Therefore if the majority chooses to not adopt whatever nonsense you want to name my particular cusp, you're out voted. To bad I can't vote you off the mortal coil--well yet anyway.

I'm suggesting people explore the topic. You are certainly not invited. You wouldn't know a good name if it was stamped on your face.

As such you have no right declare that a cusp's particular name is this or that. It must of course be a matter of consensus. The consensus is that "Gen Y" is the X/Y cusp period from 1978ish-1985ish. Personally I don't like that name (I prefer to think of myself as an Xer without all this "Yer", "explorer" "whatever" bullshit--and it is bullshit), but it is not up to me. It is a collective decision.

No collective decision has been made, and no decision made on this website can influence the general culture, which never refers to the X/Y cusp as Yer, but always uses Y as a synonym for Millennials.

As for "Explorers" where the fuck did you come up with that bullshit? Honestly people my age only want to explore one thing Eric--life without Boomers preaching at us.

I am glad to stop preaching at you. Just go away and stop pestering me. And you are not on the X/Y cusp anyway so it doesn't concern you.

I used the name in my book, which was published the same week as T4T and has a chapter on Generations.

I would say if you want to assign letters to generations, do that bullshit on your website so the rest of us who actually know shit from apple butter do not have to forced to be annoyed by that stoopid nonsense.

You prove again your astounding arrogance. Xers like you are far more arrogant than any of us boomers ever dreamed of being. Who gives you the right to tell me where I can post?

Okay, few things here...

First off, pop is a dead genre and more or less has been since it started. It's conventional, it's played out, and it's more or less the same as it's always been, just with elements of yesterday's breaking sensation. Pink's second album was produced by Tim Armstrong of Rancid, it sounds just like a pop album Tim Armstrong would write. Just like that, every pop producer team today is comprised of people who were producing hip-hop 10 years ago. There's a reason Sean Combs is producing Kesha now, and it's because that's where the money is.

Most Millennials I know are big time progressive metal/progressive punk fans, actually. Groups that are good, but were never a big hit with me include Protest the Hero, Coheed and Cambria and Muse. I've never met a real life Justin Beiber fan, I've only met one real life Lady Gaga fan (that was Millennial).

Now, the reason that you could turn on the radio and find good music in the 2T and not the 3T was actually a conscious effort on the part of 3T bands. All those record labels from the 1T and 2T were exploited to the Nth degree. It was bad for the bands who were either swindled or doped up and leashed and treaded like toddlers who could be swindled later. It was bad for the fans, who had to shell out more and more money to support an ever growing support system around them.

Hence the independant label. It was there to deflate the big money out of music while returning more money to the bands and allowing for more bands. That's where the term Indy comes from... Before it was another moniker for soft rock, it was indicative of the label you were on. Indy bands were on indy labels, and that's why they weren't being played on the radio. They'd effectively created another music business on the side.

And what I mean by rhythm driven is that most 3T music was growing in rhythmic presence, sophistication, and variance. Most of the 2T stuff doesn't really experiment with it. It stays pretty stationary rhythm wise from song to song. That's what allows for the long solos and the extensive jamming. So to be specific, it seems like you like one rhythm.

Also, note that youtube is a terrible means of guaging the popularity of something. It shows the amount of times it's been played, not the number of people who like it, and it's not a great indicator of who likes it because, for instance, Minnie Ripperton's "Loving You" has been played at my office probably 200 times this year. Why? Because my Lt. Thinks it's funny to torment me with it. I think it's the worst song ever.

Same goes with Beiber or Rebecca Black or really any teen pop. People are tuning in either to A) see what the fuss is about or B) torment another human being with it now that they know. The only real exception seems to be Psy's "Gangam Style", which bears a striking resemblance to The Macerena to me. It was big stuff in 2012, in 2 years it'll just piss people off.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You bother to defend this absurd notion against my obvious refutation,

When your "obvious refutation" amounts to: "Nuhuh!" *blows raspberry like toddler*

Sure why not.

so I guess I have to churn out this tedious and obvious reply.

Go ahead. I'll snip it so my readers don't get tired though.

<Snip>long diatribe.....Materialism....blah blah blah....conformist....blah blah blah....Materialism. War....blah blah blah. </snip>

All of that is utter bullshit. Here is why. Under the paradigmn of the mega cycle, mega awakenings are about the founding ideas of the era to follow. Since the founding ideas of the next mega cycle are Racial, and Sexual equality, socialism, and the preservation of the environment because the only other option is extinction...all of which are Missionary corner stones. The Great Power Saeculum was the Mega Awakening.

Your insistance on "spirituality" aside, spituality is generally irrelevant to the population--oh and by the way no-religion is the fasted growing religion. So if the Millennial Saeculum is a mega awakening and mega awakenings must have a "spiritual" component. Then it failed, miserably. If anything the march of materialism goes forward crushing superstition in its wake.

And by the way the Cold War has been over since early in this saeculum's 3T. It wasn't even the dominant concern of the 3T of this "mega" 3T!

Actually if one counts the 4T starting in 2001 (which I don't btw its not really relevant except for this particular example) then the first half of the 3T was dominated by the break up of the Cold War. The Soviet Union dissolved in 1992, not 1982. So WRONG.

Also considering that from 1945-1992 the US and the USSR were involved in the Cold War, that Cold War was very very dominate in the Saeculum. In fact Applying the 80 year rule (which is mearly a general guide at best) if the saeculum began in 1945 and ends in 2025 but the cold war ends in 1992, 46 years or 57.5% of the saeculum was consumed politcally in the cold war.

I would actually say that from 1992-2002 was clean up after the cold war. So 56 years total or 70% of the total saeculum.

So Wrong!!!!!. God I wish I had a game show buzzer for you sometimes.

The people in their prime in middle age, during unravellings, are prophets. So you are saying the Millennial Saeculum was all about Boomers?

I would be if I said this was a Mega-Awakening. During mega-awakenings the prophet generation comes to the forefront (like happened with the missionaries). In fact idealism is evident in all the Great Power Saeculum Generations, not just the Missionaries. They get a "double dose" of the idealism to be sure, but GIs were quite idealistic, as are/were the Silents and even the Lost were pretty idealistic. The Lost basically created Jazz and whole writing styles without input from anyone.

With Boomers, you have Nomad-prophet generation. Like all idealists you love to talk about morals, and ideas, but actually putting them into action only if and when they are expedient.

Yes, and it will just be the next 4T in America's history. We went through it before in the 1860s, and this will just be part 2 in the 2020s. And it will be over by the time the Millennial saeculum is over. (the "reuniting" will happen, as before, during the next 1T)

I disagree. The current 4T is at least 4 years old already. In short it is supposed to be 20% over if the pattern holds and yet, and yet, there is no cohereant vision of where the country needs to go to survive. Culture War issues are still rearing their ugly head on a nearly daily basis. And etc.

In every previous 4T, within 4 years of it starting (1773-1777, 1857-1861, 1929-1933) there was at least a vague plan for going forward. So, where is the saeculum's Declaration of Independence?, Its Civil War? its New Deal? I mean yeah, we did manage to get a 2000 page half-assed insurance company give away, and a too little too late economic stimulus, but where is the "big idea"?

If this was a Mega-Awakening we would have had one by now. We should have had one in the works a long time ago if it were a mega-awakening. The new deal programs were largely ideas thought up easily---Problem too many people out of work, make work through the government.

But is that happening now? No.

The only mega cycle that makes any sense, is a cycle pertaining to all of Western Civilization, of which the USA is just a recent part. The real turning points were the Renaissance/Age of Exploration, and the World Wars. 500 years.

I don't buy the "civilization" model of historical cycles, or rather I do, however the notion that there is a Western Civiliziation is completely absurd. The US is not Europe, never has been a part of Europe and in fact for much of our history the happenings in Europe have been irrelevant to us.

There is no great and grand "western civilization". Were there then every war fought between European powers would be a civil war--and clearly they are not.

No. Mega-cycles, and the Saeculums themselves are national in origin and national in construction and character.

No, because you have no taste, or even any willingness to listen to music at all.

Strange, you wouldn't even bother to listen to Krokus--granted not necessarily my taste either but I can appreciate it for what it is. Why is that? Oh thats right...it has a totenkopf on the enbed screen. I suppose that the totenkopf must mean SS and Nazi automatically to you never mind the death's head has been used as a symbol for CENTURIES.

But the expert musical arranging of Bieber's music is a mark of talent and high standards, something you know absolutely nothing about.

If The Castrato was so talented he wouldn't need to have it "OVER produced". Simple production would handle any deviations from the otherwise high standards to which normal people place upon music. Well good music anyway--something I know for a fact you know nothing about. After all Tribute Tread to The Castrato...enough said.

Musical substance has nothing to do with whether it is political or not. And Justin Bieber's "Pray" is the most substantive piece of music, politically and otherwise, of anything produced in the last 37 years. (at least in the pop field )

Musical substance is political in nature. All art is political in nature. All of it. As to "Pray" it has the political wit of a six year old. I found that song uniquely terrible. I had to rinse my ears out with bleach after hearing it.

Boomers with any sense don't mask their emotions away with drugs.

Who accused you in particular and Boomers generally of having any sense?

Depression is not a good thing to listen to in music.

Depression is an emotion. It is neither "good" nor "bad" and only a fool with binary thinking would be naive enough to ascribe "good" and "bad" to emotions.

You're right, that is the main emotion in Xer and 3T music,

Actually Kepi already countered this so I don't have to. That said, I happen to prefer music where the mood is one of "depression". Overly sweet, surgery "happy" music is childish and well has put me in an diabetic coma before.

And you know what happened to the most famous purveyor of grunge. It was not an accident that this happened.

Actually I'm glad that Kurt shot himself before he became irrelevant. He insured his immortality. Except for die hard fans where are Pearl Jam now?

3T music is loud screaming and musty nothingness.

I see you've not actually listened to any then. Then you would know that loud screaming is not featured at all in Hip-Hop especially. Particularly when its first name "rap" is an acronym for Rhythmic African Poetry.

Music

on the other hand

Which we've previously determined you know nothing about...

has form and sound. Good melody, arrangement and performance is missing, relatively speaking, in all 3T Xer pop music.

"Pop" music? You are seriously basing your judgements of 3T music on the singularly worst genre ever concieved since the invention of the phonograph? Well no wonder you hate it then. If the only thing you know about it is the garbage they play on the Top 40 stations...which is the most dumbed down asinine garbage imaginable. I could see your point.

Of course this only indicates that you have not actually bothered to listen to what Xers actually listen to as opposed to what is sold in large volume.

But Maroon 5 is an example of a musical group that was able to adapt to the new 4T times,

Maroon 5 is absolutely terrible.

keep their Xer-ness,

No they castrated their completely un-edgy "music" and relapsed it with vapid and bland. That said in 30 years I imagine it would make nice muzac. I know I did hear a nirvana song the other day in an elevator.

and yet still make some pop songs of beauty with real melody, sound and complex counterpoint, and sell millions doing it. Fun. is a good cusper who is doing it too. But you as usual are lost, with your ears up your ass.

Musical content has absolutely nothing to do with record sales. The vapid garbage that has been pumped out by the major record labels for the past decade is exhibit A for that.

You apparently just spout opinions that I don't like, just because I don't like them.

No actually I post opinions and facts against whatever you like not because you don't like them. But rather because well honestly Eric, its almost like your the anti-Kinser. Your taste is genuinely bad, your arguments are attrotious, and your theories ridiculous and absurd.

But then again you are an idealist, so garbage in, garbage out. I shouldn't be surprised I guess.

I'll probably put you on ignore again soon,

You put me on ignore anytime you like sugar. That just means I've won. You can't handle my argumentation.

Given your behavior towards me, I would not give odds that you might not get yourself in real trouble.

With whom exactly? You think I'm scared of some big bad forum admin? I'm certainly not scared of you.

You are so completely wrong in your perception of Justin Bieber, and in every detail too, that I bet you might piss someone else off with the same bullshit, and get yourself hurt; either by insulting him like that to others, or by insulting others that way.

I'll say it plainly. Justin Bieber is a horrible musician. His music is absolutely terrible, and anyone who thinks it is good better be a little girl with no taste or deaf. Any person want to fight me over this? I'm ready to spar right now.

See the funny thing is Eric, that The Castrato, is hated by nearly everyone except you, and 14 y/o girls. Two demographics I'm completely unafraid of. In fact, hating him if you go out on the internets is actually considered to be fashionable. Has been for a while now too.

Just don't tempt fate. Don't make those comments about him anywhere near his presence. Or near anyone else, for that matter, about him or anyone else. Just a piece of friendly advice; ignore it at your own risk. He is the opposite of what you say he is. Underestimate him at your own peril.

Tempting fate is what I do Eric. I think I'll tempt the fates mocking the Castrato as I please. His 15 minutes are almost over anyway.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And neither were you. No-one should care what your opinion is of what I say. You have admitted that whatever you say to me, has the sole purpose to upset and rile me and entertain yourself.

Actually I admitted no such thing Eric. I just happen to know that the fact that I exist bothers you to no end. I mean how dare someone have an opinion about anything that is different than you.

Also if you noticed in my post I made no claim to be responsible for naming cusps, generations or any other grouping. That is a matter of consensus.

I'm suggesting people explore the topic. You are certainly not invited. You wouldn't know a good name if it was stamped on your face.

Doesn't matter if I'm invited or not. I'll crash the party if I need to. Not being invited has never stopped me before.

That said, yes I do know a good name when I see one. Just like I know an incredibly stupid name when I see one.

No collective decision has been made, and no decision made on this website can influence the general culture, which never refers to the X/Y cusp as Yer, but always uses Y as a synonym for Millennials.

What are you expecting a giant national poll to determine generational names? Puhlease! The stupidity of that statement is matched only, well its not matched by much--its just too stupid for words really.

I see you obviously do not understand how concepts get named in a collective manner. But let me dumb it down for you if I can. I probably won't succeed I do have usually explain things to you like I would a three year old. Someone decides to call an object or a concept something. Other people agree that what he calls this object or concept is a good name for it. Through usage the name sticks. No one person decided that that was the name of it, because someone else might think up a different name.

I am glad to stop preaching at you. Just go away and stop pestering me. And you are not on the X/Y cusp anyway so it doesn't concern you.

First I have no intention of going anywhere. That said you're free to leave any time you like.

Second, actually yes I am. The 79 in my name isn't just for decoration. It is my birth year. Since the X/Millenial cusp is determined to be between 1978-1984, yes I'm in that cusp. I know that this is kinda advanced logic here, and I've probably lost you here already.

I used the name in my book, which was published the same week as T4T and has a chapter on Generations.

And how many weeks was YOUR book on the NY Times Best Sellers list? No wait, I already know. 0 weeks.

I've read excerpts from that particular book btw. I was not impressed. It read like self-published drivel. It probably is self-published drivel.

You prove again your astounding arrogance. Xers like you are far more arrogant than any of us boomers ever dreamed of being. Who gives you the right to tell me where I can post?

For a "published author" your grasp of the English language isn't very strong. If you reread my statement you would see it was a request.

Given that I with regularity make you out to be the forum laughing stock, I would think I have a bit of a right to be "arrogant".

Originally Posted by Kepi

I've never met a real life Justin Beiber fan,

I have, they are almost universally 13-15 y/o girls. Their other tastes in music are equally vapid too.

I've only met one real life Lady Gaga fan (that was Millennial).

Define "fan." I actually happen to like Lady Gaga (somewhat), but mostly because she's a cheap imitation of Madonna who I do like, and doesn't make my ears bleed. And well Madonna hasn't but out a record since God was a boy.

Same goes with Beiber or Rebecca Black or really any teen pop. People are tuning in either to A) see what the fuss is about or B) torment another human being with it now that they know. The only real exception seems to be Psy's "Gangam Style", which bears a striking resemblance to The Macerena to me. It was big stuff in 2012, in 2 years it'll just piss people off.

Completely agreed here.

That said I must admit about Gangnam Style it is so bad its good. Of course after reading the translated lyrics and looking up the cultural references it seems that South Korea is in its 3T.

Yeah, I don't mind Gangam style, honestly. Is it good? No. But there are times where one must prance around like they are on a horse, and there you go. I didn't mind the Macarena, either. I wasn't the intended audience, so I heard it In very limited doses.

I still see Marilyn Manson every time I look at Lady Gaga. It's mostly the face part of her, but also the body circa 1998. Either way I've got no real vested opinion in her. She is what she is, and it's not my thing. I don't dread hearing it, I don't seek it out.

Gangnam Style is good if your hopped up on something. But like I said, its so bad its good. It is what it is, and its mostly for people hopped up on something to prance around like retards. Like the Macarena, I'm not the intended audence so I don't hear it much at all. Mostly when I do hear it...its a "Hey wtf would you look at that!"

And I've noticed that the instrumental part has been stripped from the Korean lyrics by some DJs over here and being mixed into your general sound-alike electronic dance type music.

I don't see the Marilyn Manson in Lady Gaga, but then again I was never much into him anyway. Too weird for my tastes.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Actually I admitted no such thing Eric. I just happen to know that the fact that I exist bothers you to no end. I mean how dare someone have an opinion about anything that is different than you.

Statements like that are only made by post-modernists. Therefore, you kinser are a post-modernist. Non post-modernists like me actually think some opinions are right and others are not. Yours are not.

Also if you noticed in my post I made no claim to be responsible for naming cusps, generations or any other grouping. That is a matter of consensus.

So?

Doesn't matter if I'm invited or not. I'll crash the party if I need to. Not being invited has never stopped me before.

That said, yes I do know a good name when I see one. Just like I know an incredibly stupid name when I see one.

Go ahead. I can't stop you. You know nothing. Sargeant Schultz is your hero.

What are you expecting a giant national poll to determine generational names? Puhlease! The stupidity of that statement is matched only, well its not matched by much--its just too stupid for words really.

I see you obviously do not understand how concepts get named in a collective manner. But let me dumb it down for you if I can. I probably won't succeed I do have usually explain things to you like I would a three year old. Someone decides to call an object or a concept something. Other people agree that what he calls this object or concept is a good name for it. Through usage the name sticks. No one person decided that that was the name of it, because someone else might think up a different name.

Your account does not interest me. The only fact is that "Yer" is only used as a name by a few people here, and it is not agreed on, or used anywhere else. It is an incredibly stupid name.

First I have no intention of going anywhere. That said you're free to leave any time you like.

Second, actually yes I am. The 79 in my name isn't just for decoration. It is my birth year. Since the X/Millenial cusp is determined to be between 1978-1984, yes I'm in that cusp. I know that this is kinda advanced logic here, and I've probably lost you here already.

I don't care if you think you are or not. I don't think you are. Noone determined the cusp, and those dates are not correct.

And how many weeks was YOUR book on the NY Times Best Sellers list? No wait, I already know. 0 weeks.

Correct.

I've read excerpts from that particular book btw. I was not impressed. It read like self-published drivel. It probably is self-published drivel.

Wrong.

For a "published author" your grasp of the English language isn't very strong. If you reread my statement you would see it was a request.

Given that I with regularity make you out to be the forum laughing stock, I would think I have a bit of a right to be "arrogant".

Go ahead, assert your rights. I don't think I am interested in your requests. You are not entitled to make any requests of me, and I will not answer any request from you until you have listened 15 times to 15 Justin Bieber songs, and then read my whole book again while standing on your head. And even then, I will not concede that you have a right to tell me where I can post.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Okay, few things here...

First off, pop is a dead genre and more or less has been since it started. It's conventional, it's played out, and it's more or less the same as it's always been, just with elements of yesterday's breaking sensation. Pink's second album was produced by Tim Armstrong of Rancid, it sounds just like a pop album Tim Armstrong would write. Just like that, every pop producer team today is comprised of people who were producing hip-hop 10 years ago. There's a reason Sean Combs is producing Kesha now, and it's because that's where the money is.

Kesha can go kesh my sha. I won't even say where Sean Combs can go.

Most Millennials I know are big time progressive metal/progressive punk fans, actually. Groups that are good, but were never a big hit with me include Protest the Hero, Coheed and Cambria and Muse. I've never met a real life Justin Beiber fan, I've only met one real life Lady Gaga fan (that was Millennial).

There are no Justin Beiber fans, because there is no such person. And there are no good 3T bands as far as I know; yes I could be wrong. Maybe I'll check those out, but I am not optimistic. But then, I was not optimistic when I checked out Justin Bieber. You never know for sure. But I don't care whether music is independent or not. I only care if it is good, as it sounds to me.

And what I mean by rhythm driven is that most 3T music was growing in rhythmic presence, sophistication, and variance. Most of the 2T stuff doesn't really experiment with it. It stays pretty stationary rhythm wise from song to song. That's what allows for the long solos and the extensive jamming. So to be specific, it seems like you like one rhythm.

No, but at least your point is more clear now. Different rhythms are not of major importance to me compared to sound, arrangement, melody, etc. 3T music has no melody, sound, arrangement, counterpoint, ambience; anything. Much of it had no rhythm either. I know that may be an exaggeration, but like they say, exceptions would only prove the rule.

Also, note that youtube is a terrible means of guaging the popularity of something. It shows the amount of times it's been played, not the number of people who like it, and it's not a great indicator of who likes it because, for instance, Minnie Ripperton's "Loving You" has been played at my office probably 200 times this year. Why? Because my Lt. Thinks it's funny to torment me with it. I think it's the worst song ever.

Same goes with Beiber or Rebecca Black or really any teen pop. People are tuning in either to A) see what the fuss is about or B) torment another human being with it now that they know. The only real exception seems to be Psy's "Gangam Style", which bears a striking resemblance to The Macerena to me. It was big stuff in 2012, in 2 years it'll just piss people off.

I disagree. No song could get that many views that is not very popular. I think you tube views may actually be a better gauge than other surveys. The most popular tunes on you tube in 2012 were Gangnam Style and Call Me Maybe. They are certainly the ones that have gotten the most attention and genuine interest from people and media all over the place. Your 200 views or even the 3 million dislikes of Baby (or even its 1 1/2 million likes) are barely a drop in the bucket of the number of views, not to mention digital sales.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

So if the Millennial Saeculum is a mega awakening and mega awakenings must have a "spiritual" component. Then it failed, miserably.

Who said the Millennial saeculum is a mega-awakening?

Actually if one counts the 4T starting in 2001 (which I don't btw...

So your point is useless.

I would be if I said this was a Mega-Awakening.

No, prophets are in "middle age" as YOU said, in unravellings.

In every previous 4T, within 4 years of it starting (1773-1777, 1857-1861, 1929-1933) there was at least a vague plan for going forward.

We are at 1850, not 1861.

I don't buy the "civilization" model of historical cycles, or rather I do, however the notion that there is a Western Civiliziation is completely absurd. The US is not Europe, never has been a part of Europe and in fact for much of our history the happenings in Europe have been irrelevant to us.

There is no great and grand "western civilization". Were there then every war fought between European powers would be a civil war--and clearly they are not.

No. Mega-cycles, and the Saeculums themselves are national in origin and national in construction and character.

You have never heard of Columbus or King George, I guess.

If The Castrato was so talented he wouldn't need to have it "OVER produced". Simple production would handle any deviations from the otherwise high standards to which normal people place upon music. Well good music anyway--something I know for a fact you know nothing about. After all Tribute Tread to The Castrato...enough said.

There was nothing said at that link at all. Since Bieber is so talented, he doesn't need overproduction, which would be obvious to anyone who listens to his music. You don't, so you don't know.

Musical substance is political in nature. All art is political in nature. All of it. As to "Pray" it has the political wit of a six year old. I found that song uniquely terrible. I had to rinse my ears out with bleach after hearing it.

Which only proves you know nothing about music, its purpose, or which music is good. You have established over this whole post that it is useless to have any exchange at all with you over music. Why discuss music with a complete musical twit? You go listen to what you want, and I'm gonna do the same.

Who accused you in particular and Boomers generally of having any sense?

ME, I reckon, since I don't use drugs.

I happen to prefer music where the mood is one of "depression". Overly sweet, surgery "happy" music is childish and well has put me in an diabetic coma before.

I don't share your preferences. I like some harder and darker music, but I also like softer, romantic and atmospheric music.

You put me on ignore anytime you like sugar. That just means I've won. You can't handle my argumentation.

You only like music that shouts and screams, and that is how you argue too. No need to reply to any of it.

His 15 minutes are almost over anyway.

4 years is a long 15 minutes, buddy. What I see on the internet is lots of people changing their minds about him. Not here though, which says a lot about folks here, and nothing at all about him. But the only reason people here or anywhere else don't like him, is that they are afraid to. Someone might call them a sissy or a girl, or call them the things you call me. I am not afraid. I call it like I hear it. Them who have ears to hear, let them hear. Not you, buddy. You never will. You have no ears.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Gnats are an irritant; that's all you are.

Good to see that ignore function is working. I knew you couldn't get enough of me.

http://youtu.be/RScYA_fBqKY

So?

So I made no claim on the ablity to name generations, nor their cusps assuming that cusps exist, nor that I was in any way qualified to dictate to others what the names of generations are, were or should be. In short your entire argument was a straw man. One you walked right into.

Go ahead. I can't stop you.

Then why even bother telling me I wasn't invited. It seems rather pointless to not invite someone who is going to show up if he pleases regardless your wishes. Its like telling someone they aren't invited to use a public urinal. They simply look at you, give you the one fingered salute and do their business and leave.

You know nothing. Sargeant Schultz is your hero.

He was a rather decent character. Still doesn't change the fact that you're misusing a cultural reference. Generally when one says they are pulling a Sgt Schultz they are merely pretending to not know (generally to a superior) that they do know.

Since you are not my superior, and in fact repeatedly demonstrate you are my intellectual inferior on a rather regular basis. I have nothing to fear from that particular barb. Now had you likened me to Colonel Klink--I'd be be slightly more concerned. But I have faith you'd manage to mess that reference up too.

Your account does not interest me.

Too bad, you can learn a lot about someone on the basis of their account.

The only fact is that "Yer" is only used as a name by a few people here,

It does not necessarily take a majority of people to have a consensus, a few would do just nicely provided that no one is providing any objection. My main objection is that I don't wish to separate myself from the Xer core. I'm more one of them than I am a Millie--I know where I stand and so on.

and it is not agreed on, or used anywhere else.

Generational theory is pretty much not used anywhere else either. So this is totally irrelevant. The usage matters in the context of this forum. If there were some other forum that cared about generational theory and claimed that those born between 1978-1984 were "Generation Orangutan" that would be the name of the cusp or generation. Do I have to necessarily agree, no, but if that is the consensus that is generally assumed to be what the name is.

You can call an apple a blueberry if you like, but if you are the only one who does, expect to be shown the error of your ways. The will of the majority has a habit of crushing the will of the one.

It is an incredibly stupid name.

My personal name? I'm glad you like it. Not that I really care for your opinion of my name. Nor do I really care what your opinion is about generational names--particularly when no one else agrees with you and you have been mocked for it several times.

I don't care if you think you are or not. I don't think you are. Noone determined the cusp, and those dates are not correct.

I see you fail to understand the concept of consensus. A consensus decision requires no one person making a decision. Rather a group of people make a bunch of individual decisions and usage follows an organic development.

And yes the dates are correct, and btw S&H determined the Xer/Millie line at 1982. Its in their books btw. You know the ones you've claimed to have read.

Correct.

Yes well it is still drivel

Wrong.

Not self-published eh? Who in their right mind would be dumb enough to publish your scribblings?

Go ahead, assert your rights. I don't think I am interested in your requests. You are not entitled to make any requests of me, and I will not answer any request from you until you have listened 15 times to 15 Justin Bieber songs, and then read my whole book again while standing on your head. And even then, I will not concede that you have a right to tell me where I can post.

I'm entitled to make any requests I want. That is the nature of requests. Mine was reasonable, yours however is patently absurd. I don't even think The Castrato has even listened to 15 of his songs 15 times each. He certainly hasn't read your book, he has managed somehow to hire a decent manager and make a ton of cash so he's probably not interested in your scribblings.

Maybe you should send him a copy with a dozen roses or whatever. Maybe it would expedite the royalties deal on your website I heard you were thinking about. It could ruin...I mean make his career even better cause now you could share his ah..."lovely?" music with your sycophants...I mean audience.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Good to see that ignore function is working. I knew you couldn't get enough of me.

My appetite for you is running on empty. This latest group of scribblings of yours is so completely stupid and irrelevant that I am not going to reply to them.

Not self-published eh? Who in their right mind would be dumb enough to publish your scribblings?

If you had actually read some of my book, as you claim, you most certainly would know. So I'm not going to tell you. It's no secret; if you found my book, you can find it again and answer that question yourself. If you don't want to know, really, then all the more reason not to answer you.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

My appetite for you is running on empty. This latest group of scribblings of yours is so completely stupid and irrelevant that I am not going to reply to them.

And yet you keep clicking the view post button, assuming you've bothered to put me on ignore. Perhaps I need to use reverse psychology.

If you had actually read some of my book, as you claim, you most certainly would know.

Know what? That it is drivel?

So I'm not going to tell you. It's no secret; if you found my book, you can find it again and answer that question yourself. If you don't want to know, really, then all the more reason not to answer you.

I read the excerpts a while ago. I find reading drivel entertaining from time to time.

It took some digging, should have guessed Llewellyn Publications. They only publish new age drivel, so about the same as self-publishing.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

And yet you keep clicking the view post button, assuming you've bothered to put me on ignore. Perhaps I need to use reverse psychology.



Know what? That it is drivel?



I read the excerpts a while ago. I find reading drivel entertaining from time to time.

It took some digging, should have guessed Llewellyn Publications. They only publish new age drivel, so about the same as self-publishing.

Congratulations. You actually did some research! Very good. And you see how little it matters that you know now. And congratulations AGAIN! You have now actually MADE my ignore list. I have decided to put you there because it is now plain to me that your posts are not even worth reading, and certainly not worth responding to. You have almost reached the level of JDG66. But I will still click the view post button whenever I feel like it, and you can't stop me. I removed someone from ignore to make room for you. I won't say who.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Congratulations. You actually did some research! Very good. And you see how little it matters that you know now. And congratulations AGAIN! You have now actually MADE my ignore list. I have decided to put you there because it is now plain to me that your posts are not even worth reading, and certainly not worth responding to. You have almost reached the level of JDG66. But I will still click the view post button whenever I feel like it, and you can't stop me. I removed someone from ignore to make room for you. I won't say who.

You realize that if you continue to respond to me it defeats the purpose right? As for the rest...well I simply don't care. I've won.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Given that I with regularity make you out to be the forum laughing stock, I would think I have a bit of a right to be "arrogant".

Hey Kinser.

I want to state from the outset that I'm not attempting to start any sort of quarrel with you here, but from my POV, you don't make Eric out to be "the forum laughing stock^TM" with regularity; He actually does a pretty good job of that all on his own!

Anyway, after having read some of Eric's posts and some of your posts(I really don't have the interest or patience
to attempt to keep-up with the overly-wordy) I would say that, generally speaking, Eric is less incorrect than you are i/r/t the "nature of reality" and thus, "Reality", IMO.
[Note: For the purpose of transparency, I believe I'm currently on Eric's ignore-list
due to my describing him as being a "complete idiot"(which I still stand behind!)].

That said, I believe your statement about yourself being "arrogant" might be better stated as you being "hubristic"(and I'm defining that as a belief that you know more than you actually do, generally speaking).
It actually kinda fits i/r/t a possible Civic-trait for someone who could be defined as being a Gen-Y cusper.
IOW, you may want to reconsider some of your beliefs(and how those beliefs are actualized) going-forward
(unless you're attempting to become The Witchfinder-General i/r/t Idealists, of course!).


Prince

PS: As you were, My Liege!

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

<snipped for brevity>

I am of course open to re-examination of my core beliefs, it is a process I have undergone many times before to purr-fect my ideology. That said, I'm a confirmed materialist and I will likely not be moving from that position--indeed I can be a bit "fanatical" about it. And there may be some bias due to having to deal with Eric "roughly" to basically get him to put me on his ignore list (which he will hopefully use so I can post in peace).

I will say that this thread is mostly not the place in which to examine my own ideology. Perhaps even this forum (well the public areas anyway) is not the most appropriate place for it. I of course can be PMed by anyone, including Eric-the-ignoramus. I don't use the ignore function, I end up constantly clicking the button to see the posts anyway so its a waste of my time.

As to hubris, yes that is possible. While I certainly feel "Nomad" much of the time, I do have a certain "Civic" tendency. I've never denied those traits, I see no reason to.

IRT, Witchfinder-General, does that position come with burning at the stake privileges? I've always liked a good barbecue.