Originally Posted by Kinser

Prince, <snipped for brevity>

Ha! Love it!

Originally Posted by Kinser79

I am of course open to re-examination of my core beliefs, it is a process I have undergone many times before to purr-fect <snipped razz> my ideology. That said, I'm a confirmed materialist and I will likely not be moving from that position--indeed I can be a bit "fanatical" about it. And there may be some bias due to having to deal with Eric "roughly" to basically get him to put me on his ignore list (which he will hopefully use so I can post in peace).

I have absolutely NO problem with your POV, Kinser(not that my opinion matters). Your statements/observations appear to me to be very consistent with your stated belief in "materialism". IOW, you are not a hypocrite(unlike a certain someone appears to be. ).
[Note: FWIW, I was making no implication that you should move away from any of your positions;
Only that they may be incomplete. That is all(but I suspect you already know that.)].

Originally Posted by Kinser

I will say that this thread is mostly not the place in which to examine my own ideology. Perhaps even this forum (well the public areas anyway) is not the most appropriate place for it. I of course can be PMed by anyone, including Eric-the-ignoramus. I don't use the ignore function, I end up constantly clicking the button to see the posts anyway so its a waste of my time.

As to hubris, yes that is possible. While I certainly feel "Nomad" much of the time, I do have a certain "Civic" tendency. I've never denied those traits, I see no reason to.

IRT, Witchfinder-General, does that position come with burning at the stake privileges? I've always liked a good barbecue.

Oh, you've definitely got the Nomad-thingy going-on(A little more Gen-Jones actually, IMO). And, I have no problem joining you in a good-ole Boomer-roast. But, maybe we might be a little more tolerant of a future Idealist-Gen going forward.


Take care,

Prince

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Ha! I bet it was me!

Now that's what I call Synchronicity!!


Prince

PS: After my last post, I believe I'm back on ignore again, though!

No, you never moved. You are still there.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

"Land Down Under" sounds very Awakening to me. Good song, and cool hippies too.

"Travelling in a fried-out combie
On a hippie trail, head full of zombie
I met a strange lady, she made me nervous
She took me in and gave me breakfast"

This is 1982. Actually, the song is deriding and making fun of hippies, which is a typical attitude of the early 3T.

"And the flute riffs, very typical Awakening."

The flute riffs were doubtless a major reason why it became a huge hit. At the time, the flute, which I agree is a typical 2T instrument, had been banished from pop music for some time, so its use here was unexpected and regarded as refreshing. I have major doubts though the teenagers who listened to this song made the connection to progressive rock, jazz and funk. I know I didn't.

EDIT: That Good Times song sounds like disco, certainly a major trend of the late 1970s.

It is disco. Famous late disco by Chic (1979). Chic were noted for their baselines that got endlessly imitated in the 80's. Couldn't resist including it since a few gentlemen here on the board were referring to the 3T as "Happy days are here again" just a few moments ago. Well, here it is.
Actually, the whole song is about overcoming an era of "stress and strife" and various encumbering causes: "Boys will be boys, better let them have the choice; girls will be girls, cute pony tails and curls". It's hardly a coincidence it was written just as the Awakening was ending and the Unraveling rising.
Disco itself of course is double faced, much like punk to some extent. On the one hand you have the connection to 2T phenomena like free love and the gay liberation movement; on the other there is the nihilistic hedonism left over when you have outrun all the idealistic projects, as well as a pent up craving for worldliness, glamour and luxury. Stuff that Awakening morals are always in harsh denial of and therefore 3T's set free.

@ Eric - So I took a look at Justin Beiber's production staff, just to see what I saw... And you realize that the music is mostly 3Ters, right? I mean, the Executive Producer is Usher. Seriously? Usher? And you're telling me this is 4T brilliance? But it doesn't end there. Most of the production credits on his album go right to folks who made the music for Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Tony Braxton, TLC, Snoop Doggy Dogg, Boyz II Men, Busta Rhymes, Jennifer Lopez, Jay-Z, Kanye West, Brandy, Destiny's Child...

The list goes on and on. Really the people producing Beiber are, as I thought, all 3T pop producers with a few hip-hop producers thrown in. The songs are written by people who did 3T pop at the height of the 3T, they're played by people who did 3T pop at the height of 3T pop, and musically... It's 3T pop. There is nothing in there that wasn't found in 3T pop, except maybe cheaper compression used far more liberally (meaning the music sounds louder, and more static in volume).

So what I'm saying is what you're saying about music when looked at in conjunction with what you're saying about Justin Bieber more looks like you're using terms you don't really understand to claim a difference that doesn't exist. These are 3T musicians writing and playing 3T songs in a 3T style. The only difference is there's a Millennial singing them. That's the only difference. The writers writing his lyrics? Also 3T writers. With rare exception the people who made these albums have been producing hits since the late 90's! The face changes, but the songs are all the same.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Ha! Love it!

Yes well my ususal pattern of line by line refutation gets long quickly.

I have absolutely NO problem with your POV, Kinser(not that my opinion matters). Your statements/observations appear to me to be very consistent with your stated belief in "materialism". IOW, you are not a hypocrite(unlike a certain someone appears to be. ).

I've always been taught that a lack of hypocrisy is a mark of a civilized person.

[Note: FWIW, I was making no implication that you should move away from any of your positions;
Only that they may be incomplete. That is all(but I suspect you already know that.)].

I'm not sure that anyone's positions can ever really be complete.

Oh, you've definitely got the Nomad-thingy going-on(A little more Gen-Jones actually, IMO).

Gen-Jones? Really? What would make you say that?

And, I have no problem joining you in a good-ole Boomer-roast. But, maybe we might be a little more tolerant of a future Idealist-Gen going forward.

There will likely be a lot of cleaning house that has to happen. The future idealist generation if they know what is good for them will keep the stupidity to a minimum. But chances are it will be an advancement generation, much like the Awakeners and the Missionaries. Plenty of good ideas, not so much on the running wild.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

When your "obvious refutation" amounts to: "Nuhuh!" *blows raspberry like toddler*

IOW a

Go ahead. I'll snip it so my readers don't get tired though.

Eric the verbose ?

So Wrong!!!!!. God I wish I had a game show buzzer for you sometimes.

Something better, Whammies.

Of utmost service - Rags.






With Boomers, you have Nomad-prophet generation. Like all idealists you love to talk about morals, and ideas, but actually putting them into action only if and when they are expedient.

I disagree. The current 4T is at least 4 years old already. In short it is supposed to be 20% over if the pattern holds and yet, and yet, there is no cohereant vision of where the country needs to go to survive. Culture War issues are still rearing their ugly head on a nearly daily basis. And etc.

1. Bank bailouts.
2. Cruft accumulation/and/or failure to remove cruft. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac/HUD/scads of useless defense contracts/thousands of pages of loophole riddled tax codes/ etc. etc. It's awful damn hard to get new stuff when we have all this cruft around.

In every previous 4T, within 4 years of it starting (1773-1777, 1857-1861, 1929-1933) there was at least a vague plan for going forward. So, where is the saeculum's Declaration of Independence?, Its Civil War? its New Deal? I mean yeah, we did manage to get a 2000 page half-assed insurance company give away, and a too little too late economic stimulus, but where is the "big idea"?

We don't. This 4T is more of a slow motion train wreck.

Strange, you wouldn't even bother to listen to Krokus--granted not necessarily my taste either but I can appreciate it for what it is. Why is that? Oh thats right...it has a totenkopf on the enbed screen. I suppose that the totenkopf must mean SS and Nazi automatically to you never mind the death's head has been used as a symbol for CENTURIES.

Eric doesn't like 3T music which is fine and I don't like <<<you know who>>> which is fine. The agreement is that I won't preach to Eric as long as he does not preach at me. We agreed to both like 2T music.

If The Castrato was so talented he wouldn't need to have it "OVER produced". Simple production would handle any deviations from the otherwise high standards to which normal people place upon music. Well good music anyway--something I know for a fact you know nothing about. After all Tribute Tread to The Castrato...enough said.

Privoxy has allowed me to put that thread on ignore.

Musical substance is political in nature. All art is political in nature. All of it. As to "Pray" it has the political wit of a six year old. I found that song uniquely terrible. I had to rinse my ears out with bleach after hearing it.

Yeah, 1 play was enough to "just say no".

I see you've not actually listened to any then. Then you would know that loud screaming is not featured at all in Hip-Hop especially. Particularly when its first name "rap" is an acronym for Rhythmic African Poetry.

Rap's not my cup of tea either, but if folks like it, no issue.

"Pop" music? You are seriously basing your judgements of 3T music on the singularly worst genre ever concieved since the invention of the phonograph? Well no wonder you hate it then. If the only thing you know about it is the garbage they play on the Top 40 stations...which is the most dumbed down asinine garbage imaginable. I could see your point.

101 Luftballons and Photograph do suck.

You put me on ignore anytime you like sugar. That just means I've won. You can't handle my argumentation.

You'll make a fine collection addition to all of those other Xer's he alreadc has.

ely terrible, and anyone who thinks it is good better be a little girl with no taste or deaf. Any person want to fight me over this? I'm ready to spar right n

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

IOW a

Not quite unfortunately. That emoticon is almost cute or maybe even "joke-like." With Eric, its a Boomer being obnoxious and childish (as if thats anything new).

Eric the verbose ?

Yes, why use five words when over 9000 will do?

Something better, Whammies.

Of utmost service - Rags.

With Eric, we'd be hearing that sound for far longer than 2 minutes and 53 seconds, and Whammies get old fast. A simple fail button would do.

1. Bank bailouts.
2. Cruft accumulation/and/or failure to remove cruft. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac/HUD/scads of useless defense contracts/thousands of pages of loophole riddled tax codes/ etc. etc. It's awful damn hard to get new stuff when we have all this cruft around.

Not much to argue with here Rags...but not quite what I meant. I'd be happy if by now we'd just have someone--I don't give a damn who say.

"Hey guys I have a vision, a vision of an America where we have/don't-have X, Y, and Z!"

We don't. This 4T is more of a slow motion train wreck.

Yeah and thats the problem. We're supposed to be in a time of chaos and apocalypse and well so far as "this is the end of the world" moments go, its well...lame.

Eric doesn't like 3T music which is fine and I don't like <<<you know who>>> which is fine. The agreement is that I won't preach to Eric as long as he does not preach at me. We agreed to both like 2T music.

Yes well Eric, supposedly--I'll believe it when I see it--agreed to put me on ignore. Hopefully he won't be posting long winded nonsense at me so I can have intelligent discussions with adults instead of him.

I have a feeling that if he and I could agree to liking 2T music we'd obviously disagree over which is good and which is terrible. I'm very picky about my 2T music.

Privoxy has allowed me to put that thread on ignore.

True, but you still know it exists.

Yeah, 1 play was enough to "just say no".

Why am I having a flash back to school specials with a video of Nancy Reagan?

Rap's not my cup of tea either, but if folks like it, no issue.

Yes well not all rap is created equal either. As I said I listen to mostly underground stuff. If it is on the radio, it is the lowest quality available.

101 Luftballons and Photograph do suck.

Yes, but 99 Luftballons is in German so you don't have to know exactly how shitty the lyrics are. Its not good, but I could handle listening to it in an elevator or something.

As for that Nickleback song...well Nickleback. I think everyone hates Nickleback, its like required by law or an amendment to the Constitution or something.

You'll make a fine collection addition to all of those other Xer's he alreadc has.

Yes well I'm just hoping that if he has me on ignore he will actually ignore me. That way, I can go on and not have to read drivel he's posted to me. It wold be almost like he doesn't exist--almost.

Originally Posted by Tussilago

"Travelling in a fried-out combie
On a hippie trail, head full of zombie
I met a strange lady, she made me nervous
She took me in and gave me breakfast"

This is 1982. Actually, the song is deriding and making fun of hippies, which is a typical attitude of the early 3T.

Well, maybe in one line, and the words of songs are not the major substance of the music. MAW are hippies, who could always make fun of themselves, as Frank Zappa did, and the music is awakening music, not the non-music that followed in the 3T. Quality mattered, whereas it mattered much less once the corporate, cynical, downcast 3T began (but began with the positive mood of yippie, the awakening is over, now we can return to indulgence). Of course, arguably in Austrailia the turnings may have turned a bit later.

It is disco. Famous late disco by Chic (1979). Chic were noted for their baselines that got endlessly imitated in the 80's. Couldn't resist including it since a few gentlemen here on the board were referring to the 3T as "Happy days are here again" just a few moments ago. Well, here it is.
Actually, the whole song is about overcoming an era of "stress and strife" and various encumbering causes: "Boys will be boys, better let them have the choice; girls will be girls, cute pony tails and curls". It's hardly a coincidence it was written just as the Awakening was ending and the Unraveling rising.
Disco itself of course is double faced, much like punk to some extent. On the one hand you have the connection to 2T phenomena like free love and the gay liberation movement; on the other there is the nihilistic hedonism left over when you have outrun all the idealistic projects, as well as a pent up craving for worldliness, glamour and luxury. Stuff that Awakening morals are always in harsh denial of and therefore 3T's set free.

True, I agree; and which I prefer to interpret as the awakening in its last days, and the unravelling mood rising but not yet dominant.

Originally Posted by Kepi

@ Eric - So I took a look at Justin Beiber's production staff, just to see what I saw... And you realize that the music is mostly 3Ters, right? I mean, the Executive Producer is Usher. Seriously? Usher? And you're telling me this is 4T brilliance? But it doesn't end there. Most of the production credits on his album go right to folks who made the music for Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Tony Braxton, TLC, Snoop Doggy Dogg, Boyz II Men, Busta Rhymes, Jennifer Lopez, Jay-Z, Kanye West, Brandy, Destiny's Child...

I don't think you are seriously listening to Bieber's music from all his periods. Which is your choice, if it doesn't appeal. It appeals to me, and Usher is quite clear that what he saw in Bieber was "all him." When he started he had no-one. He is not a manufactured commodity by a 3T music industry. He is a brilliant singer/songwriter, and now a producer himself, of the 4T's new music and the internet generation. And he certainly works with other people who have been making music in the 3T, but the ideas and performances are his own.

And if his producers are making better music now, then it only shows they are moving on into the 4T. There's no doubt that older artists can move into a new era with newer ones setting the pace. The stars of the current scene are millies, most not much older than Bieber, even if they are using 3T musical veterans to help them produce their music. That's only natural, and I don't discount the fact at all. Bieber works with others to an extent unmatched by any other artist. To me that shows his talent and resources, and the millie ability to work with others, as does the contrary fact that Believe for example is actually mostly all his own idea. His aim in working with and directing all these great variety of folks (different folks on each track) is to produce good music, and he succeeds, better than anyone else in pop music today (in my opinion, which I realize is not shared on this Xer-cynicism-dominated forum).

The list goes on and on. Really the people producing Beiber are, as I thought, all 3T pop producers with a few hip-hop producers thrown in. The songs are written by people who did 3T pop at the height of the 3T, they're played by people who did 3T pop at the height of 3T pop, and musically... It's 3T pop. There is nothing in there that wasn't found in 3T pop, except maybe cheaper compression used far more liberally (meaning the music sounds louder, and more static in volume).

No, there's lots more going on than that, and the music is completely different from 3T pop, even though he is not some kind of rebel against it, and he makes a lot of use of it. Just as the 2T rock bands were heavily influenced by the 1T rock'n'roll and R&B, but in my opinion took it much farther. What is there, that was not in 3T pop, is melody and good arrangements, good soft-pop singing rather than screaming and screeching, and a heavy acoustic folk element too. Bieber's manager is Scooter Braun, who is at his greatest success now, not some years ago. And the principal writer of Bieber's songs, is Bieber. People who don't want to believe in him, naturally just deny that fact, as you do; that doesn't change the fact. His music is not only 4T pop, it's the fount of a whole new tradition that could not have existed without youtube and social media. So your claims that this is 3T music are incorrect.

And anyway, there is no such person as Justin Beiber. And I still await any Xer or Millie here who can actually hear what is happening in JB's music. You guys are just afraid of being called sissies by your fellow macho Xers. But those with ears to hear, let them hear. There's lots of ears that do.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Eric the verbose ?

That's better than Eric the Obtuse. Although I think some other boomers here have a better claim to the title.

As to "Pray" it has the political wit of a six year old. I found that song uniquely terrible. I had to rinse my ears out with bleach after hearing it.

Yeah, 1 play was enough to "just say no".

cozenhagen 4 hours ago
I'm not a fan of Justin Bieber but neither am I JB Hater. But I gotta say that this song is pretty impressive ! Top-notch work !

Lots of people out there can hear the music!

You'll make a fine collection addition to all of those other Xer's he already has.

I think that he is uniquely qualified to join this infamous group, yes.

...

It is disco. Famous late disco by Chic (1979). Chic were noted for their baselines that got endlessly imitated in the 80's. Couldn't resist including it since a few gentlemen here on the board were referring to the 3T as "Happy days are here again" just a few moments ago. Well, here it is.

Disco? 1979? Heh.



Jonesers run wild.

Actually, the whole song is about overcoming an era of "stress and strife" and various encumbering causes: "Boys will be boys, better let them have the choice; girls will be girls, cute pony tails and curls". It's hardly a coincidence it was written just as the Awakening was ending and the Unraveling rising.

I guess bonfires do that as well.

Disco itself of course is double faced, much like punk to some extent. On the one hand you have the connection to 2T phenomena like free love and the gay liberation movement; on the other there is the nihilistic hedonism left over when you have outrun all the idealistic projects, as well as a pent up craving for worldliness, glamour and luxury. Stuff that Awakening morals are always in harsh denial of and therefore 3T's set free.

I guess Disco demolition night shows that.

The sheer amount of writing credits says otherwise. Remember, this is how people make money in the industry so you don't just give everybody and their brother a writing credit unless you absolutely have to. Just like production. You don't give everybody a producer credit unless you absolutely have to.

This is a 4T performer infront of a 3T handling and producing machine making 3T music for the 4T performer to sing over. And it is what it is, but that's exactly what it is. With few unoteworthy exceptions, every single one of those people on Beiber's album were making music long before where I consider the 3T over, and I think all of them were making music before what you consider the 3T to be over.

It's 3T music sludging on over into the 4th turning. None of this stuff has really changed, production's more of less the same, aside from more compression and more agressive use of effects.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green;462249 You have now actually MADE my ignore list. I have decided to put you there because it is now plain to me that your posts are not even worth reading, and [I

certainly[/I] not worth responding to.

Yes. I saw this coming...

You have almost reached the level of JDG66. But I will still click the view post button whenever I feel like it, and you can't stop me. I removed someone from ignore to make room for you. I won't say who.

AFAIK, I don't think there's an ignore limit. Why break up a good set?

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

...



Disco? 1979? Heh.

Jonesers run wild.



I guess bonfires do that as well.



I guess Disco demolition night shows that.

Disco was awful. It had neither substance nor edge. It seems to have been an attempt to bridge late-Boom and early-X sensibilities... and at that it offended both Boom and X sensibilities. Boomers generally gave up on pop music, yielding it to Generation X while going to just about everything else.

What a pity? Not in the least. That music was the purest kitsch that music ever had.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Disco was awful. It had neither substance nor edge. It seems to have been an attempt to bridge late-Boom and early-X sensibilities... and at that it offended both Boom and X sensibilities. Boomers generally gave up on pop music, yielding it to Generation X while going to just about everything else.

What a pity? Not in the least. That music was the purest kitsch that music ever had.

Perhaps, but kitsch has its time and place. That time and place being yonder dance floor where the music having a "deeper meaning" or "an edginess" is neither necessary nor desired.

Disco provides that nicely without sounding like just plain noise like some other forms of music do. Yes I'm looking at you Dubstep.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

<snip for brevity>
...
And anyway, there is no such person as Ratt. And I still await any Xer or Millie here who can actually hear what is happening in JB's music. You guys are just afraid of being called sissies by your fellow macho Xers. But those with ears to hear, let them hear. There's lots of ears that do.

1. We called a truce on this issue, remember?
2. I think most of the referenced post belongs on the shrine thread.
3. Here's some Pink Floyd
4. Disco does suck. I had to spend time looking for AM skips to find music played circa 1970 which was worth listening to or waiting for AM hours to listen to the local FM station when they stopped playing disco junk and played aforementioned circa 1970 music. I think the DJ's had to play tripe during prime time, but got free reign to play what they liked off hours.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

1. We called a truce on this issue, remember?

Yes, but only with you, not with others. But it's a peaceful discussion anyway, so no truce necessary.

2. I think most of the referenced post belongs on the shrine thread.

Yes, you do think that.

Originally Posted by Kepi

The sheer amount of writing credits says otherwise. Remember, this is how people make money in the industry so you don't just give everybody and their brother a writing credit unless you absolutely have to. Just like production. You don't give everybody a producer credit unless you absolutely have to.

I don't know that that is true. Everyone who contributes usually gets a credit. That is certainly true on Bieber records. And since Bieber is listed as co-writer on almost all of his songs, you can't assume that he didn't write them. So, the sheer amount of writing credits doesn't say otherwise.

This is a 4T performer in front of a 3T handling and producing machine making 3T music for the 4T performer to sing over. And it is what it is, but that's exactly what it is. With few unoteworthy exceptions, every single one of those people on Beiber's album were making music long before where I consider the 3T over, and I think all of them were making music before what you consider the 3T to be over.

And, under Bieber's lead, they are now making 4T music with him. It can't be 3T music; it is better music! It is not pop schlock garbage. Even one of Usher's own latest songs is quite an advance. And I think Bieber deserves the respect of having his name spelled right. I know, lots of folks here think he doesn't deserve any respect. I disagree.

It's 3T music sludging on over into the 4th turning. None of this stuff has really changed, production's more of less the same, aside from more compression and more agressive use of effects.

I hear quite a bit of change, and that's what counts; what it sounds like. It is more melodic and better arranged, and the singing is softer. For a 16-18 year old, at least, it is better styled.

I was thinking about one of his songs where production makes a big difference on it, Out of Town Girl. It is definitely a 3T producer's instrumentation, but it is Bieber's song, and the producer did a great job on it. The combination is what is great. I checked out some of the other work this producer (Kenneth Coby/Soundz) did, and was not impressed. Somehow he was inspired to do something better with Bieber. Just Coby, Bieber and one other person are listed as writers on this song.

By the way, there certainly is a lot of 3T music sludging over into the 4th turning. All the rap stuff, and the underground 3T alternative rock, and still plenty of pop schlock, with maybe more effects, but little more than annoying sounds, and very boring tunes. Some people (and most people here) just assume they can put Bieber in that category, but he doesn't belong there. Those who can hear, let them hear.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Yes. I saw this coming...

It could hardly be more obvious.

AFAIK, I don't think there's an ignore limit. Why break up a good set?

I guess to keep your place in this hallowed hall of shame, you have to have your credentials renewed periodically.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I guess to keep your /[{(<<<place in this hallowed hall of shame>>>)}]/, you have to have your credentials renewed periodically.

I didn't know I was on your ignore list. Your usual pattern is to announce to the forum beforehand that someone was going to be placed on said list. Anyhow, better late than never. (Of course , since I'm on said ignore list, I won't know if you will see this post at all.) I used a bunch of green delimiters (learned from assorted programming languages) to highlight your statement of fact so as to ensure as many eyeballs catch this as possible. [max Vbullentin emoticon quotient achieved here.)

That's not how it works. Beiber goes down with Usher and Scooter Braun go to meet with Tricky Stewart, who has preformatted arrangements for Beiber to check out. Beiber will make a slight change in the arrangement so he can score a song writing credit. Usher and Scooter are there to Colonel Tom Parker Beiber if he steps out of line. That's how pop works. One day Beiber will become a big boy, meaning he'll quit focusing on making his own albums and he'll become a handler/producer, just like Usher. Or he'll kinda fade away after hopefully making enough money that he'll never have to work again. That's pop in a nutshell. That's how it's made. You pick your production team, they provide music, you make limited changes for monitary purposes, and you record.

Then you take your recordings to an engineer to set levels, auto tune flubs and polish out recording imperfections so let's take a look there... David Pensado and Jaycen Joshua, who both produced a litany of 3T hits. So you have 3T producers taking this music to 3T engineers, who master the album and take it back to the producers who listen to it and approve or deny, and Beiber will approve because he's just happy that Usher quit slapping him to see exactly which end the money flies out of.

So then what's changed? Why do Beiber's vocals sound softer? Well, first off, upping music at or above above vocals is a 3T production value. The other thing they're doing is compressing the tracks, now more heavily than ever before, in order to make the tracks have a more constant volume. It also produces a less rich tone and less range overall. For instance my best friend got his album engineered and over compressed and had to send for the masters and remix them all. Reason? The radio has certain volume variances they'll allow, and so engineers will automatically compress their albums to fit within that range. Compression rates have increased and increased mostly because it seems louder and that usually garners more listeners.

So pretty much there's the process and the product. It's just 3T music with a 4T pop vocalist.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

I didn't know I was on your ignore list. Your usual pattern is to announce to the forum beforehand that someone was going to be placed on said list. Anyhow, better late than never. (Of course , since I'm on said ignore list, I won't know if you will see this post at all.) I used a bunch of green delimiters (learned from assorted programming languages) to highlight your statement of fact so as to ensure as many eyeballs catch this as possible. [max Vbullentin emoticon quotient achieved here.)

You are ignoring me in a way, or maybe just being your normal Joneser Taurean self; interpreting everything in terms of you. "your" of course was meant in a general sense, concerning how my hall of shame functions. I do tend to announce someone's dubious achievement, but afterward it remains a secret. Only Eric is actually allowed into the hall.

Originally Posted by Kepi

That's not how it works.

It is amusing that you think you know, even though you don't know about him and don't listen to him, the proof being that you can't even spell his name. Oh well.

Beiber goes down with Usher and Scooter Braun go to meet with Tricky Stewart, who has preformatted arrangements for Beiber to check out. Beiber will make a slight change in the arrangement so he can score a song writing credit. Usher and Scooter are there to Colonel Tom Parker Beiber if he steps out of line. That's how pop works. One day Beiber will become a big boy, meaning he'll quit focusing on making his own albums and he'll become a handler/producer, just like Usher. Or he'll kinda fade away after hopefully making enough money that he'll never have to work again. That's pop in a nutshell. That's how it's made. You pick your production team, they provide music, you make limited changes for monitary purposes, and you record.

You're right about one thing; JB is becoming a producer of some kind, having "signed" Carly Rae Jepsen and helped make Call Me Maybe a huge ubiquitous hit with his support. Usher is of course a handler, yet still making music and still very popular doing it. So it's not one or the other. You have no idea if Bieber really makes songs in the way you ascribe to "pop in a nutshell."

Personally, as I've said, I don't really care how it's made myself. Even if Bieber has little to do with it, the fact remains that I like everything that has his name on it, and I can't say that about any other current artist, although I like some of the other songs, and still dislike the majority of them. That can't be an accident, and certainly not an intention on my part. And I never listen just to the vocals. Owl City has broken through to the mainstream with some songs, and they are mostly made in his basement. So your theory evidently doesn't apply to all pop songs, even if it did apply to virtually all pop songs in the 00s, so you therefore can't assume it applies to JB.

Then you take your recordings to an engineer to set levels, auto tune flubs and polish out recording imperfections so let's take a look there... David Pensado and Jaycen Joshua, who both produced a litany of 3T hits. So you have 3T producers taking this music to 3T engineers, who master the album and take it back to the producers who listen to it and approve or deny, and Beiber will approve because he's just happy that Usher quit slapping him to see exactly which end the money flies out of.

So then what's changed? Why do Beiber's vocals sound softer? Well, first off, upping music at or above above vocals is a 3T production value. The other thing they're doing is compressing the tracks, now more heavily than ever before, in order to make the tracks have a more constant volume. It also produces a less rich tone and less range overall. For instance my best friend got his album engineered and over compressed and had to send for the masters and remix them all. Reason? The radio has certain volume variances they'll allow, and so engineers will automatically compress their albums to fit within that range. Compression rates have increased and increased mostly because it seems louder and that usually garners more listeners.

So pretty much there's the process and the product. It's just 3T music with a 4T pop vocalist.

Nice theory; I don't know how to reply to all of it. I don't have a friend directly involved in 3T pop. I know that most music of any kind is "mastered" and "mixed," not just 3T pop (as we call it in our quaint way). I don't think the variance between loud and soft sounds is very important either way to the quality of a song. I'm sure that Bieber's vocals sound softer, because he sings them softer, both live and recorded. What about Gotye's famous song? It's obvious he sings softer at the start and loud toward the end. That was not production. Another point is that radio is becoming less and less relevant. Bieber became popular through you tube, and many radio stations that play pop, don't even play him. Music videos are more important. So what is your impression of Out of Town Girl? Good song? How about his new acoustic album written and produced by him and Dan Kanter? Reached #1 btw.

All music is engineered, even live. It's a matter of extent, though. But the point I'm making is that you can sing softly, pot up the vocals, and then swing with his change in volume to keep him from getting lost in the mix, while keeping the same static volume throughout the song. Then you compress it (which actually limits the range), and makes for a blander mix. You can do this anywhere, for instance, the guy from Owl City does it all himself, and I respect that even if I find his music kinda bland.

This is much more my style all around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpl7X...e_gdata_player

Not only do they capture the music how it has to be played to be heard without engineering (the lead singer's solo acoustic recordings turn out quite differently), but it captures everything I like about a larger rock band, including the multilayered brass lines, the still busy breakdowns, and just an overall more complexly structured, tight song.

If we're going to go with a more hiphop oriented flavor, I like stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL85...e_gdata_player

Not only is Daedelus a really interesting producer, whose samples really come from bizarre and unknown sources, but rappers like Busdriver and Radioinactive pull stuff with their rhyme schemes that would scare off Alan Guinsberg. Creating that illusion of speed in the 2nd verse by doubling the rhymescheme is pretty genius, and sets up the 3rd verse to feel like you're swimming in jello.

When I hear this stuff, Justin Beiber in acoustic comes off as structurally simple, and it just doesn't hold my attention because in comparison it's just not got a lot going on.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Yes well my ususal pattern of line by line refutation gets long quickly.

Given the tendency for male-Boomers on this MB to mis-state/mis-interpret/mis-represent
the observations of other posters, I can understand your use of the line-by-line refutation.

Originally Posted by Kinser

I've always been taught that a lack of hypocrisy is a mark of a civilized person.

Well then, a civilized person you are, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Kinser

I'm not sure that anyone's positions can ever really be complete.

Good to know you're open-minded.

Originally Posted by Kinser

Gen-Jones? Really? What would make you say that?

Eh? It's difficult to put-into words. I don't want to say "passionate", but something along those lines(but in a more MBTI-"T" fashion). Maybe "resolute".

Originally Posted by Kinser

There will likely be a lot of cleaning house that has to happen. The future idealist generation if they know what is good for them will keep the stupidity to a minimum. But chances are it will be an advancement generation, much like the Awakeners and the Missionaries. Plenty of good ideas, not so much on the running wild.

I believe I understand what you're saying here. Like I was stating above i/r/t the MBTI-"T"-thingy, I believe that
the Boomers may have been more MBTI-"F"-driven. While it may have been productive i/r/t identifying "flaws" in
the US Society's "personality", it is now not only problematic(due to the incredible lack of Logic and Pragmatism),
but dangerous i/r/t "blaming" and creating "false narratives". IOW, if you(and the Millys+) make the decision to
clean-house, I would be inclined to defend persons I deem "innocent", but probably not so inclined to do so for
the "arrogant"(unless it got really outta-hand!).


Prince

PS: In my experience, given enough time(and rope!!), I have found that the Arrogant(as well as the Hubristic), usually end-up getting what they deserve(with or without my aid!).