Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Given the tendency for male-Boomers on this MB to mis-state/mis-interpret/mis-represent
the observations of other posters, I can understand your use of the line-by-line refutation.

That is a general Boomer trait. Here the guys may do it more than the girls, but both sexes will do it if it suits them.

Well then, a civilized person you are, I suppose.

Well I try to be civilized. Sometimes though being un-civilized is more prudent.

Good to know you're open-minded.

One's goal should be open-minded, as in open to new ideas or views, but not to be so open minded that their brains fall out. One needs to let in that which is useful and keep out that which is not useful or even harmful.

Eh? It's difficult to put-into words. I don't want to say "passionate", but something along those lines(but in a more MBTI-"T" fashion). Maybe "resolute".

My MBTI test results are ISTP.

I believe I understand what you're saying here. Like I was stating above i/r/t the MBTI-"T"-thingy, I believe that the Boomers may have been more MBTI-"F"-driven. While it may have been productive i/r/t identifying "flaws" in the US Society's "personality", it is now not only problematic(due to the incredible lack of Logic and Pragmatism), but dangerous i/r/t "blaming" and creating "false narratives". IOW, if you(and the Millys+) make the decision to clean-house, I would be inclined to defend persons I deem "innocent", but probably not so inclined to do so for
the "arrogant"(unless it got really outta-hand!).


Prince

I would say assuming that Nomads will maintain top leadership positions in the first half of the 1T (which seems to happen frequently) that if these persons you deem "innocent" can be rationally defended then they should have nothing to worry about. Or at least not from me.

My point was that the next idealist generation would serve themselves better if they concentrated on things that are useful. Like science and invention and etc.

PS: In my experience, given enough time(and rope!!), I have found that the Arrogant(as well as the Hubristic), usually end-up getting what they deserve(with or without my aid!).

I have similar experiences when dealing with my enemies and frienemies. If I can get them to do the dirty work for me so much the better.

Originally Posted by Kepi

All music is engineered, even live. It's a matter of extent, though. But the point I'm making is that you can sing softly, pot up the vocals, and then swing with his change in volume to keep him from getting lost in the mix, while keeping the same static volume throughout the song. Then you compress it (which actually limits the range), and makes for a blander mix. You can do this anywhere, for instance, the guy from Owl City does it all himself, and I respect that even if I find his music kinda bland.

But his latest album and recent songs have a lot more uplifting energy, which I like. I'm sure that's true about producing JB's softer voice, but not sure what difference it makes. His softer voice is an improvement over heavy metal and rap, the former being screaming, and the latter irritating on purpose, and his voice is far more expressive than the manufactured pop singing from the 00s.

This is much more my style all around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpl7X...e_gdata_player

Not only do they capture the music how it has to be played to be heard without engineering (the lead singer's solo acoustic recordings turn out quite differently), but it captures everything I like about a larger rock band, including the multilayered brass lines, the still busy breakdowns, and just an overall more complexly structured, tight song.

Much more of an Xer sensibility (or should I say lack thereof?). To me, the brassy sound is moderately in-your-face annoying, not romantic or dreamy or uplifting at all. The singing is still too much of the metal scream. I don't hear much musical structure, except maybe that for the title chorus, because the melody is arbitrary, whereas a Bieber melody is more like a classic folk tune or classical piece.

When I hear this stuff, Justin Beiber in acoustic comes off as structurally simple, and it just doesn't hold my attention because in comparison it's just not got a lot going on.

You still have yet to tell me who Justin Beiber is. Never heard of the dude.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You are ignoring me in a way, or maybe just being your normal Joneser Taurean self; interpreting everything in terms of you.

No:
1. You are discussing "Castrato" here an awful lot. My side of the truce means refraining from discussions thereof. Both of our minds are made up wrt heavy metal and *"Castrato".
2. Most of the other posts involve you and Kepi/Kinser'79. I'd be butting in on those and that would be rude.

"your" of course was meant in a general sense, concerning how my hall of shame functions. I do tend to announce someone's dubious achievement, but afterward it remains a secret. Only Eric is actually allowed into the hall.

The hall of shame seems to be more of a hall of mirrors.

*"Castrato" is a registered trademark of Kinser'79 Inc., LLC, Pty. Ltd. AG. etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Much more of an Xer sensibility (or should I say lack thereof?). To me, the brassy sound is moderately in-your-face annoying, not romantic or dreamy or uplifting at all. The singing is still too much of the metal scream. I don't hear much musical structure, except maybe that for the title chorus, because the melody is arbitrary, whereas a Ratt melody is more like a classic folk tune or classical piece.

And

You still have yet to tell me who Ratt is. Never heard of the dude.

Perhaps Kepi doesn't know who Ratt is. For Kepi's references:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rattofficial

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

2. Most of the other posts involve you and Kepi/Kinser'79. I'd be butting in on those and that would be rude.

You can butt in my mocking Eric-the-ignoramus. It may be rude but I don't mind.

That said since he put me on ignore its been pretty quiet around here. When he isn't posting drivel at me I can ignore his existence even if I don't have him on ignore. For some strange reason putting people on ignore myself has the opposite effect of its intended purpose.

*"Castrato" is a registered trademark of Kinser'79 Inc., LLC, Pty. Ltd. AG. etc. etc.

Just for the record "Castrato" is fair use.

@ Eric -

Requiring music to be "romantic or dreamy or uplifting" is childish. There are a million moods, emotions, circumstances, and experiences and all of them deserve a shot at being expressed. Infact, I find Streetlight extremely uplifting. You might not, but whatever.

The melody isn't arbitrary, infact it's extremely precise, and it's extremely difficult to find as tight a group as Streetlight. You'll also be hard pressed to find a group that uses as many world influences as Streetlight in a coherant and consistant manner. This leads to uses of scales you rarely see in most American music.

Criticizing the use of Brass... An entire classification of instrument, then turning around and claiming that Bieber (or Beiber or whoever cares) is classical when you're ignoring multilayered progressions and dismissing movement oriented melodies as arbitrary... I'm seeing some pretty apparent contradictions which are sourced from a lack of knowledge.

You also say Streetlight has "metal vocals" which is a pretty clear indication you don't know what heavy metal vocals sound like, and probably cannot differentiate punk and metal (which is a pretty massive blind spot from which to be able to criticizing anything past 1976 on).

Then let's talk about folk, because the largest influences from Streetlight are punk rock, ska, and Russian folk derivatives, and Russian folk is considered to be one of the most interesting and deeply enjoyable forms of music to classically trained and jazz oriented musicians, much like Russia's deep history in classical music, ballet, and classic literature are considered to be pretty amazing.

So I'm seeing some pretty massive gaps in knowledge being feigned as an idealistic construct that art must be one thing or another. While there's plenty to criticize in anything, and even though Streetlight is among my favorites. However, inept criticism usually displays more about the critic than the composition, and I'm seeing that's really the case here.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

That is a general Boomer trait. Here the guys may do it more than the girls, but both sexes will do it if it suits them.

I don't feel I have enough experience i/r/t interacting with Boomers(in general) to make that claim,
but I suppose there may be something there. It's only something I have experienced on this MB
(because this is the only MB to which I post anything). That said, there are plenty of non-male(as far as I know!) Boomers on this MB that don't respond in that manner. Also, there have been some male-Boomers that didn't appear to fit that description, so I really can only suspect that it has something to do with some male-Boomers on this MB. I'm only defining this because I do see some "prophet" traits i/r/t Boomers(eg: "rampant-individualism"), but not this mis-stating/mis-interpretation/mis-representing-thingy(except i/r/t politicians!).

Originally Posted by Kinser

Well I try to be civilized. Sometimes though being un-civilized is more prudent.

I agree. BTW, love the hyphen!

Originally Posted by Kinser

One's goal should be open-minded, as in open to new ideas or views, but not to be so open minded that their brains fall out. One needs to let in that which is useful and keep out that which is not useful or even harmful.

Yeah. I'm big-on being open-minded(ie: giving "consideration"), because that may just
lead to changing one's opinion on something and possibly gaining a new-found "respect".
For me, consideration is something I give, but respect is something someone else "earns".
[Note: I guess we could say that I play-favorites!]

Originally Posted by Kinser

My MBTI test results are ISTP.

That really makes alot of sense from my POV. I was actually going to say earlier that I got
an MBTI-"S" impression from your responses. FWIW, I'm an INTJ with an off-the-chart "N", a moderfate "T",
and an almost dead-even "J/P"). Good to know; Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Kinser

I would say assuming that Nomads will maintain top leadership positions in the first half of the 1T (which seems to happen frequently) that if these persons you deem "innocent" can be rationally defended then they should have nothing to worry about. Or at least not from me.

How can one rationally defend-against being labeled a witch
or a communist? If you float, you're guilty?
Kinda sounds like that whole 99% vs 1%-thingy(conceptually), IMO.
All that sorta crap is just plain weird to me. Here's another: "Elite".
When the hell did the term "elite" turn into a pejorative! Freaking weird, IMO.

<Prince, shakes head>
[Note: I'm just kinda speaking out-loud here.]

Originally Posted by Kinser

My point was that the next idealist generation would serve themselves better if they concentrated on things that are useful. Like science and invention and etc.

Heh. Like, "Toppling the Great Socialist-Utopia"^TM!
AKA " Mustang Sally"^TM(LMAO)

Originally Posted by Kinser

I have similar experiences when dealing with my enemies and frienemies. If I can get them to do the dirty work for me so much the better. <snip winky>

Tsk-tsk, Kinser. You're not endorsing self-deportation now, are you?


Prince

PS: This emoticon-limit-thingy is frustrating me(grrrr!).

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

And

Perhaps Kepi doesn't know who Ratt is. For Kepi's references:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rattofficial

If we're gonna talk metal... Can we talk about something exceptional?

Like how about Iron Maiden's synchronized guitar work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOVz...e_gdata_player

Or Dio's Incredible Voice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqn3...e_gdata_player

Or that thing on Lemmy's face?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iwC...e_gdata_player

Or the sheer amount of times Rob Zombie can say "Yeah" in a single song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd_J...e_gdata_player

Originally Posted by Kepi

@ Eric -

Requiring music to be "romantic or dreamy or uplifting" is childish. There are a million moods, emotions, circumstances, and experiences and all of them deserve a shot at being expressed. Infact, I find Streetlight extremely uplifting. You might not, but whatever.

Maybe childish; it's just some of what I look for; a general description of my interests, but I wouldn't discount other moods. No I don't find it uplifting at all; whatever indeed. I don't discount that others may disagree, and I know that comparing that group to Bieber, and finding Bieber better, might seem strange, and I truly understand that; but I certainly do.

The melody isn't arbitrary, infact it's extremely precise, and it's extremely difficult to find as tight a group as Streetlight. You'll also be hard pressed to find a group that uses as many world influences as Streetlight in a coherant and consistant manner. This leads to uses of scales you rarely see in most American music.

Criticizing the use of Brass... An entire classification of instrument, then turning around and claiming that Bieber (or Beiber or whoever cares)

Thanks though; it is a bit irritating to misspell his name, since I happen to think he deserves respect, and I know that's unlike the consensus on this website

is classical when you're ignoring multilayered progressions and dismissing movement oriented melodies as arbitrary... I'm seeing some pretty apparent contradictions which are sourced from a lack of knowledge.

Certainly not a lack of knowledge; I just find that song and most other 3T rock abrasive and/or uninspiring. And any supposed calculation to satisfy some formula that supposedly indicates good music in some way, means nothing to me. Musical knowledge by an artist means nothing if the music that comes out is not good. It must be inspired, and the proof is only in the hearing and nothing else. A much greater example of brass in rock that I like is My Wife from Who's Next and some tracks from Quadrophenia. Much more harmonic and less abrasive.

You also say Streetlight has "metal vocals" which is a pretty clear indication you don't know what heavy metal vocals sound like, and probably cannot differentiate punk and metal (which is a pretty massive blind spot from which to be able to criticizing anything past 1976 on).

I know I despise both kinds of singing, and Streelight fits the bill of the usual screaming and screaching of 3T rock, however it may be classified. I would not say it's down with the worst I've heard though; I'll give it that much.

Then let's talk about folk, because the largest influences from Streetlight are punk rock, ska, and Russian folk derivatives, and Russian folk is considered to be one of the most interesting and deeply enjoyable forms of music to classically trained and jazz oriented musicians, much like Russia's deep history in classical music, ballet, and classic literature are considered to be pretty amazing.

So I'm seeing some pretty massive gaps in knowledge being feigned as an idealistic construct that art must be one thing or another. While there's plenty to criticize in anything, and even though Streetlight is among my favorites. However, inept criticism usually displays more about the critic than the composition, and I'm seeing that's really the case here.

It's OK with me if you like it. For me it just gives one more confirmation of my opinion of 3T-period Xer music: brash, unmelodic and lacking in grace, and I don't know what the word is if unromantic is not acceptable. Atmospheric? Music to me must have some of this gentle and sensitive element to be good, even if it's also powerful.

That's the difference I see between rock in the 3T and some of the pop music today. I think 2012 was the best year for pop since 1984 (maybe even 1977, could not say for sure). The melodies were better, the sounds are less schlocky and manufactured than previous pop, and the rock is less brash and lacking in grace. There's still a lot of lousy pop and rock around though, so we'll see whether the new trend holds. I think Bieber makes a great contribution; I like very much the new acoustic songs that you don't find much content in. I do find it, and I think there are several other artists from whom we can also expect more good work. Plus there's a lot of rising artists on you tube and social media who are just getting started, and are not yet highly-produced, as Bieber sometimes became. I see potential there for a whole new 4T era.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

No:
1. You are discussing "Castrato" here an awful lot. My side of the truce means refraining from discussions thereof. Both of our minds are made up wrt heavy metal and *"Castrato".

I don't see it that way; it means not discussing him with you. You are free to object if I post about you know who, and I may choose to heed your request, but I might also post about you know who if I want, wherever I want. Sorry

2. Most of the other posts involve you and Kepi/Kinser'79. I'd be butting in on those and that would be rude.

Thanks. And anyway I won't be engaging kinser, so have at it if you wish.

The hall of shame seems to be more of a hall of mirrors.

I think I need to keep them on ignore and let it go. If they decide to behave, off they go. But most of them probably like being on my ignore list anyway.

*"Castrato" is a registered trademark of Kinser'79 Inc., LLC, Pty. Ltd. AG. etc. etc.

It says more about the author of the term, than its victim-- to whom it is singularly unsuited. But I didn't know you could register someone's trademark. I'll call on you next time I discover a term for something.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I don't feel I have enough experience i/r/t interacting with Boomers(in general) to make that claim, but I suppose there may be something there. It's only something I have experienced on this MB (because this is the only MB to which I post anything). That said, there are plenty of non-male(as far as I know!) Boomers on this MB that don't respond in that manner. Also, there have been some male-Boomers that didn't appear to fit that description, so I really can only suspect that it has something to do with some male-Boomers on this MB. I'm only defining this because I do see some "prophet" traits i/r/t Boomers(eg: "rampant-individualism"), but not this mis-stating/mis-interpretation/mis-representing-thingy(except i/r/t politicians!).

I'm active on several forums, plus I have had to deal with Boomers a lot IRL, in business. I have found that in a debate, particularly those who have chosen to disagree with me, will use any opportunity that presents itself to twist my words and meaning. Many do it without even thinking about it.

My old district manager who recently retired was VERY like that. She also insisted on twice weekly (unproductive) meetings. Thankfully she's since been replaced by a 1964 Xer male. He doesn't care what I have to do so long as I make the right rate of profit, and his boss stays off his ass. Also he reduced the meetings to once per quarter. I think he's an introvert like myself. I always found those meetings to be exhausting (even if they were totally unproductive) and prefer a weekly visit by him--and just him.

So yes I'm quite happy that the Boomers are retiring. It means I'm being liberated from pointless meetings.

I agree. BTW, love the hyphen!

Yes, my spell checker has a problem recognizing prefixes for some reason. I should probably update the dictionary, but well that would involve me updating it. Hyphens are easier.

Yeah. I'm big-on being open-minded(ie: giving "consideration"), because that may just
lead to changing one's opinion on something and possibly gaining a new-found "respect".
For me, consideration is something I give, but respect is something someone else "earns".
[Note: I guess we could say that I play-favorites!<snip emoticon>]

I'm in favor of consideration of new ideas. Provided that they pass the "smell test" first. That is to say I will consider any idea that has been presented only if it doesn't sound like complete bullshit. From there I am going to try to find out if it is bullshit. And if it is not bullshit then the question becomes is the idea useful. If it is useful then I will use it, if not it either goes in with the bullshit or is saved for an occasion when it becomes useful.

In my experience 90% of all ideas are bullshit.

Respect on the other hand with me is hard to earn and easy to lose.

That really makes alot of sense from my POV. I was actually going to say earlier that I got
an MBTI-"S" impression from your responses. FWIW, I'm an INTJ with an off-the-chart "N", a moderfate "T",
and an almost dead-even "J/P"). Good to know; Thanks for sharing.<snip emoticon>

In the absence of hard data I usually have to go with experience, and guesswork. Of those two options I prefer experience. It is an auxiliary cognitive function. If you review some of my responses to others I've required them to define words, and tell me exactly how they are using them for me to follow along.

The most recent one was a discussion of "civilizational" cycles where I question the very meaning of what a "civilization" was. What were the objective traits of a civilization, and were their traits that a civilization must have to actually be a civilization.

I also find that with many things I need to know the theory behind why something works. Particularly with technology. My most recent adventure in that was the world of e-cigarettes (which I've successfully switched to from 'analog cigarettes' after 20 years of smoking).

How can one rationally defend-against being labeled a witch

*pulls out Malleus Maleficararum and blows dust off of it before turning to appropriate page*

It says here that a witch will be marked by Satan and that the "witch's mark" will not bleed nor shall the witch feel pain should the mark be probed with a sharp instrument such as a needle. So we would strip the accused naked and start poking them with a needle in all their moles, scars and birth marks to see if they scream or the mark bleeds. If they do not scream or it does not bleed then they must be a witch.

or a communist?

If I'm the Witchfinder General communists need not worry about accusations. Well unless they are charged with Apostasy.

If you float, you're guilty?

If the accused is thrown into a body of water and floats but is not a duck...yes. That would be a "scientific" method of proving witchcraft.

<Disclaimer: all previous jokes were tongue in cheek>

Kinda sounds like that whole 99% vs 1%-thingy(conceptually), IMO.

Actually the 99% v. 1% is bunk. Its more like the 85% against the 15%. The Occupy movement not only forgot that in order to actually occomplish something they had to organize first, as well as that the 1% has many lackeys. But then again from the Occupy General Assemblies I've been to they were infested with Boomers who would shout down the voices of reason.

But no revolution can happen here until a group of protesters gets gunned down by the police while singing the Star Spangled Banner. Much like Bloody Sunday in Russia back in 1905.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281905%29

All that sorta crap is just plain weird to me. Here's another: "Elite".
When the hell did the term "elite" turn into a pejorative! Freaking weird, IMO.

<Prince, shakes head>
[Note: I'm just kinda speaking out-loud here.]

Be careful with that speaking aloud thing. People might start to think you're sane.

I would say that the use of "elite" as a pejoritive comes from the Right-Wing Noise Machine. Glenn Beck and etc used to rail about the liberal elites, never once considering that the Right has its elites too. There are some that claim that human society doesn't need elites, but there is one problem, there is no society with out an elite. Be it a tribe, or a nation.

Heh. Like, "Toppling the Great Socialist-Utopia"^TM!

If we are talking about a 4T result that actually leads to a Socialist Utopia*, I expect that young idealists trying to topple it will come to a sticky end. That said I'm sure that if they do want to run wild we can find productive methods for them to do that.

Perhaps a Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution that is great, is proletarian, is cultural and is a revolution.

[Note: That means a Marxist-Leninist state in my book, no other utopias are allowed to exist.]

Tsk-tsk, Kinser. You're not endorsing self-deportation now, are you? <snip eye roll>

Who said anything about deportation? :3

[ugh, why do we have so few smilies and why do we need twice? Seriously. What is the deal with the emoticon limit? ]

Originally Posted by Kepi

If we're gonna talk metal... Can we talk about something exceptional?

Like how about Iron Maiden's synchronized guitar work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOVz...e_gdata_player

Or Dio's Incredible Voice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqn3...e_gdata_player

Or that thing on Lemmy's face?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iwC...e_gdata_player

Or the sheer amount of times Rob Zombie can say "Yeah" in a single song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd_J...e_gdata_player

Sure. Good pics btw. A little history wrt metal.

Iron Butterfly - In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHNmG0X4t4 - clued in by by Boomer cousins.

Led Zepplin - All Black Dog : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhFzHcm4dSs
(On this one, I figured out a way to set up my stereo to augment the bass feedback when I was in Jr. high. Songs like this
got me through that god awful disco era. )

Stairway to Heaven. Well, what can I say about this one? This was THE song chosen as official class song for the high school class of 1981 (my year.) Said song has pretty much of everything. The ballet pieces you find on some modern day metal albums along with the usual stuff. I'll use my 1 video quota here. It's also one of the few things that a gaggle of Jonesers can agree on as "good" as well.
Starts slow and picks the pace as it goes along. Listen for some really good guitar riffs.

Stealin' - Uriah Heap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K63pu7nd6Q

Born to be wild - Steppenwolf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMbATaj7Il8 - First know reference to "heavy metal" that I know of. It's in the lyrics. "heavy metal thunder". I'd place this one as #2 in my top 10 after "Stairway to Heaven".

Moving on to some background wrt "hair bands".

#3 song School's out - Alice Cooper : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUugQoxS8_o This song is of note since it's on the Joneser "bible" movie - "Dazed and Confused."

#4 KISS - Detroit Rock City : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaQ0jrYW9MQ (Here, the obvious tie into hair bands is quite obvious. There was this thing called the "KISS Army" for us Jr. high schoolers back then. We'd all have KISS logos on our book covers. Like Stairway to Heaven, this was a highly shared experience.

#5 - Motley Crue - Wild Side : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nm1BJPe-pg Here we have the start of the "Big 80's". This song parallels rap quite a bit in that life in the big city sure ain't pretty.

#6. You Could Be Mine : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzB5hFINC_k Note the fusion of music videos with a wildly popular Movie, Terminator II. Also note the fusion of Arnold S. and a frenetic Axl. I bet Axl has one weird astrological chart since he acts that way. Typical, but very intense Joneser.

Let's end this with a new arrival, Benedictum with the voluptuous Veronica Freeman. Balls to the Wall (Accept Cover)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj6GglO7Lm4

So there you have it. From metal's origins circa 1969 to the present. Metal has outlasted trash like disco and I predict it will likewise outlast kitsch castrato stuff as well. Conversations wrt mutual interests are of course pleasant on this factious MB.

Originally Posted by Kepi

A response to Eric.

Hey Kepi. Please pardon the interruption.

I wanted to tell you that I kinda liked the Streetlight Manifesto and Daedalus/Busdriver/Radioinactive
vid-clips that you posted(for different reasons, obviously). The SM vid in particular was pretty cool in its
own right, IMO). I do have a slight criticism of SM(it's something that I notice occurring and I was curious
as to your thoughts on the matter).
[Note: FWIW, adding your observations/analysis of both songs was helpful for me to understand
where I believe you are coming-from).

Let me start by saying that I do a decent amount of gigging(back-up and fronting) and have been a part of
a decent amount of music production(although not as much direct engineering). I'm only stating this so I know that you might know that at least I believe I may have something to offer, and that you can use any technical descriptions that you may feel might be somewhat obscure i/r/t music(compositions and/or production/engineering). It's not to attempt to get you to think I know something, or that I consider myself special/cool or anything(although I certainly believe analyzing music is pretty cool!).

Anyway, here's my slight issue.

I went and listened to a couple of other SM songs(Would You Be Impressed? and Everything Goes Numb
(b/c they were the first ones that popped-up). What I noticed about We Will fall Together was that it was written around a very familiar musical-"cliche"(not used in the pejorative-sense). I believe classically-trained musicians would describe this as using a secondary-dominant. Listening to the two other above-mentiond songs, I noticed them both to be "musically" centered-around the same "cliche".
[Note: I actually use a different method of analyzing songs that is based around something loosely known as The Nashville Number System(although I have to say that I've taken it much deeper than most, if anyone, I've ever known personally). So, from while some would say that they are using a secondary-dominant in a minor key(eg: an E-dom in an A-minor(Aeolian) progression, I would say that they are using a Domininat 3-chord in the Key of C(Ionian). I'm just introducing this in case it's something that you already know, or if it's something new to you, that you may find interesting].

Anyway, although that "Dom 3-chord-thingy"^TM is relatively more interesting to listen-to(and play live, for that matter), from my POV, it's not the end-all/be-all of what makes music "melodically/harmonically" interesting. I only bring it up because it really seems so prevelant in certain bands(eg: Fall Out Boy's Dance, Dance). I believe I kinda remember Green Day making that musical-jump to play a Dom-3 instead of the "normal" b-ed 3-chord. It's nothing new, really. The Wallflowers' One Headlight and Blues Traveler's Hook were both pretty popular(FWIW, I can't stand Hook; The same progression for both verse and chorus can be so fucking boring!). But, if you don't have alot of back-up experience, you might be suprised how many "musicians"(and I use that term loosely) actually neuter-out that Dom-3 when they come-across it(or worse, play it as a Minor!). Maybe using the secondary-dominant in a minor-key is one of the things that you were referring-to when you say "Russian-folk"?

Personally, I draw a difference between songs written for popular consumption and sonhgs that I "like". If someone can achieve both simultaneously, well, that's kinda the whole ball-game from a production "design"-perspective, IMO.

Here's two off the top of my head that I like(one that didn't "make it"(popularity-wise), and one that did):

Jellyfish-Joining A Fanclub
Queen-Killer Queen

[Note: Holy Shit! While snagging these vids for the post, I noticed this:
Joining A Fanclub performed live by Drake Bell!
That. Is. Fucking. Insane!(Awesome!)
Now if "The Castrato"^TM ever decides to cover Killer Queen,
I may actually have to give him another look(or assassinate him!)]

Originally Posted by Kepi

If we're gonna talk metal... Can we talk about something exceptional?

Like how about Iron Maiden's synchronized guitar work?
Or Dio's Incredible Voice?
Or that thing on Lemmy's face? (Ha! Funny!)
Or the sheer amount of times Rob Zombie can say "Yeah" in a single song?

From a songwriting POV, here's a few "pop-metal"-"gems", IMO.

The freaky guitar-hook and multiple modulations
in the verses and pre-choruses.
Alice Cooper(Desmond Child, actually/probably): Poison
(1988-89-Billboard #7!(which is kinda crazy, IMO).
[Note: It even has the Dom-3-thingy going on!]

Two separate guitar-solo breaks, multiple modulations, too much to list, really.
Guns N Roses-Welcome to the Jungle
(1987-88-Billboard #7)
Freaking, "watershed" is what it is!

Not to shabby for a power ballad; Some interesting "hide the key"/Lydian-action going-on.
That last "Don't you think I feel the pain?"-line is really kinda powerful.
(Plus the lyrics say "ramble-on", which is always cool!)
Winger-Headed for a Heartbreak
(1988-Billboard #19)
How in the hell did they get away with that lead-guitar outro!

Lots of cool stuff going-on on this tune(Hot chicks and plenty of cowbell!! LMAO!!!!!!)
Vixen-How Much Love?
(1990-Billboard #44(what a crime!)
Jack Conrad, JK, Steve Plunkett(!)


Ok. I'm done(for now).

FWIW, there's really not a lot of music that I don't like in some way. When I start telling people(even other musicians) how much I like The Carpenters(PW & RN(!)), ABBA, or some of the Spice Girls-stuff, their reactions(usually bad) tell me alot. Actually, I've found that most of the real "pros"(my age and older), love the same stuff that I do!(which makes sense, really).

Last thing, I swear. I've never really looked into the history of over-compression i/r/t popular rock music,
but off the top of my head, Yes-9125/Genesis-Genesis(both 1983-ish) come to mind, but those songs were
still pretty cool(novel). From my 1967-POV, when that sound was used in songs that became popular, but were
real pieces of shit(IMO) was probably Phil Collins-Sussudio(1985), and Genesis-Invisible Touch(1986).


Prince

PS: I apologize for the length of this post, Kepi(I just get carried-away sometimes). I'm going to send it anyway.
No offense will be taken if you don't respond or aren't into this sort of thing; Who knows, maybe somebody might find it interesting. I really only started to respond i/r/t the Dom-3-chord/secondary dominint-thingy i/r/t
Streetlight Manifesto(et al).

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't see it that way; it means not discussing him with you. You are free to object if I post about you know who, and I may choose to heed your request, but I might also post about you know who if I want, wherever I want. Sorry

Try again. You are indeed to post til your heart's content about you know who. I've privoxyied it out which means any references to it don't show up anyway. In any event, all attempts to actually control people only leads to frustration and futility. After all, with age comes wisdom. Age isn't anything I shy away from. My AARP card is a badge or honey-BADGE-R of honor.

Thanks. And anyway I won't be engaging kinser, so have at it if you wish.

Kinser'79 is his own man, FWIW.

I think I need to keep them on ignore and let it go. If they decide to behave, off they go. But most of them probably like being on my ignore list anyway.

Yes, I believe so. Xer's are like that you know. Such contrariness is their modus operandi.

It says more about the author of the term, than its victim-- to whom it is singularly unsuited. But I didn't know you could register someone's trademark. I'll call on you next time I discover a term for something.

Yes, trademark registration is one of Rags to Riches Inc. LLC Pty. AG. etc. etc. subsidiaries. We also do business consultations, revenue optimizations, mindless meetings mitigations, website revenue captures, CEO salary alignments in a downward direction to enhance shareholder value,and revenue enhancement via the Federal Reserve via bank holding company conversions (since the best way to rob a bank is to own one.). You can take comfort that the Western zodiac is way more accurate than the eastern one. As a typical Taurus, I love wallowing in $. Tellurium is the Taurus periodic table element since it, likewise has a high affinity towards silver and gold.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Hey Kepi. Please pardon the interruption.

I wanted to tell you that I kinda liked the Streetlight Manifesto and Daedalus/Busdriver/Radioinactive

Radioinactive? WTF? That is just so not right. Rags has an affinity towards actinides like thorium and uranium. They are way more cool than "radio-inactive". 1962 was the penultimate year for radioactive fallout and the missile crisis at that. For I was born under the shadow of the mushroom cloud.

<snip here for brevity>
Anyway, although that "Dom 3-chord-thingy"^TM is relatively more interesting to listen-to(and play live, for that matter), from my POV, it's not the end-all/be-all of what makes music "melodically/harmonically" interesting. I only bring it up because it really seems so prevelant in certain bands(eg: Fall Out Boy's Dance, Dance). <great big huge fucking snip here>

Now you're talking. Fallout is hot! 1962 was a banner year for that also.

Now if "The Castrato"^TM ever decides to cover Killer Queen,
I may actually have to give him another look(or assassinate him! <snip smiley here because Vbulletin has issues!)]

No. "The Castrato"^TM has a revenue stream that Rags can dig. He punches out paparazzi. Since his music sucks so bad, I was thinking we can set up a gambling ring with him as a street fighter. We can put an ad out for some one on ones. I'm sure we'd get a python sized line of would be contenders. We'd set the lines and become the bookies. This would of course be Rags to Riches^TM "The Castrato"TM testosterone revenue division. I'm not sure about the navy <<looks askance @ Kinser>> , but I know the army likes 'em young, dumb, and full of cum. (He fits this category as well,since he seems to enjoy being punched. ) See below. If that ain't young, dumb, and full of cum, I don't know what is.

Two separate guitar-solo breaks, multiple modulations, too much to list, really.
Guns N Roses-Welcome to the Jungle
(1987-88-Billboard #7)
Freaking, "watershed" is what it is!

Agreed here.

Not to shabby for a power ballad; Some interesting "hide the key"/Lydian-action going-on.
That last "Don't you think I feel the pain?"-line is really kinda powerful.
(Plus the lyrics say "ramble-on", which is always cool!)
Winger-Headed for a Heartbreak
(1988-Billboard #19)
How in the hell did they get away with that lead-guitar outro!

Yes, those are good.

FWIW, there's really not a lot of music that I don't like in some way. When I start telling people(even other musicians) how much I like The Carpenters(Paul Williams), ABBA, or some of the Spice Girls-stuff, their reactions(usually bad) tell me alot. Actually, I've found that most of the real "pros"(my age and older), love the same stuff that I do!(which makes sense, really).

I file those in the "this sucks" folder.

Last thing, I swear. I've never really looked into the history of over-compression i/r/t popular rock music,
but off the top of my head, Yes-9125/Genesis-Genesis(both 1983-ish) come to mind, but those songs were
still pretty cool(novel). From my 1967-POV, when that sound was used in songs that became popular, but were
real pieces of shit(IMO) was probably Phil Collins-Sussudio(1985), and Genesis-Invisible Touch(1986).

Genesis sucks green donkey dicks.

Geez, what a long assed post. You need to take a break from those male Boomers. Their bad habits are rubbing off on you.

@ Ragnarok -

All very classic pulls. That is my favorite KISS track. For what it's worth, this is my favorite zep track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTQF...e_gdata_player

As for newer stuff, I tend to prefer Clutch, largely because the genre mix so much, but still keep that sludgy stoner metal guitar style. Here's a track where they keep shouting your handle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Pn...e_gdata_player

Also, there's the more "extreme" genres, which often times get really convoluted and just... Sillier than they are cool. But occasionall you wind up with a sound that warrants thigh high spiked leather boots, like Dimmu Borgir:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joEA...e_gdata_player

@ Prince of cats -

First off, thanks for the Jellyfish. I'd never heard of them before, and that's a song that should have made it.

And yes, that's definitely a cliche of Streetlight's and definitely worth mentioning. Now, the reason I think it works (and yes it is part of the Russian Folk influence, I'm pretty sure that this is the Greenday track you were refering to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcn0...e_gdata_player it's been a while since I've listened to later era Greenday, so I'm not sure if that's even the song I'm thinking of) is that playing that way allows you to mesh different scales together rather easily. Now, you're right, it's a cliche and a bit of a crutch, but when you are playing in minor scale and you wanna hammer some thing out in the harmonic scale really quick and make it sound interesting and well put together, it's a good crutch to have. Also, while there's always multiple ways to do anything that you want to, Streetlight's stuff seems to integrate around certain lyrical and musical themes each album, and so having those crutches (they have a few) pay off in providing a cohesive feel to the albums and between albums.

The lead singer of Streetlight Manifesto was the leadsinger of Catch-22 for their first album called "Keasbey Nights", which Streetlight rerecorded to prevent then Catch-22's lineup from remastering and rereleasing the old album under their name. Anyway, Live Streetlight will play "Point/Counterpoint" off the album Everything Goes numb and mash Keasbey Nights title track smack in the middle of it. It makes for a fantastic sound. So yeah, I very much agree with your criticism, even though I think that that same element that is their cliche is what also makes them strong.

Also, Compression in it's own right isn't bad, and I didn't mean to sound like compression = always bad, even though I probably came off that way. Compression is a tool. What I'm opposed to is compression as an institutional rule. If a performer decides they want to use compression on a track, that's their vision for the song and I'm okay with that. Upping it for radio was bad enough (if radio needs it to feel safe and like they won't blow out somebody's speakers because the genius wants to play his stereo so bad, then they should be the ones that get a compressed version), but now it's just gotten so ridiculous and it's like you're seeing the literal wall of sound. It's always the same volume when there is volume. Music shouldn't always sound like that.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

<<looks askance @ Kinser>>

What are you looking askance at me for? I follow the motto of what happens while underway stays while under way.

http://www.twncommunications.net/For...rouchoMarx.gif

Originally Posted by Kinser79

What are you looking askance at me for? I follow the motto of what happens while underway stays while under way.

http://www.twncommunications.net/For...rouchoMarx.gif

1. The navy is my family's branch of choice. 2 Uncles served in the navy during WWII + 1 cousin who served in 'Nam.
2. I named a branch of my company after your neologism, "castrato".

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Radioinactive? WTF? That is just so not right. Rags has an affinity towards actinides like thorium and uranium. They are way more cool than "radio-inactive". 1962 was the penultimate year for radioactive fallout and the missile crisis at that. For I was born under the shadow of the mushroom cloud.<snip cool>

Now you're talking. Fallout is hot! 1962 was a banner year for that also.

<chuckle>

Rags definitely likes the nuclear-stuff!

Originally Posted by Rags

No. "The Castrato"^TM has a revenue stream that Rags can dig. He punches out paparazzi. Since his music sucks so bad, I was thinking we can set up a gambling ring with him as a street fighter. We can put an ad out for some one on ones. I'm sure we'd get a python sized line of would be contenders. We'd set the lines and become the bookies. This would of course be Rags to Riches^TM "The Castrato"TM testosterone revenue division. I'm not sure about the navy <<looks askance @ Kinser<snipped something?>>> , but I know the army likes 'em young, dumb, and full of cum. (He fits this category as well,since he seems to enjoy being punched. ) See below. If that ain't young, dumb, and full of cum, I don't know what is.
<snip image>

Kinser really nailed-it coining: "The Castrato"^TM.
(I don't really have a deep feeling about JB one-way or another,
but generally speaking, he's not my cup of tea.)

Originally Posted by Rags

Agreed here.
Yes, those are good.

I was working in rock-radio back in the late-80's/early-90's. It was really sorta cutting-edge as far as
hard-rock/heavy-metal/pop-metal was concerned. I distinctlyremember hearing Nirvan-Smells Like Teen Spirit
on a promo-disc and realizing immediately that things were gonna change. In fact, I distinctly remember working
with the 7-Midnight DJ(announcer) and doing some o-night production at the time, and the afternoon-drive DJ
came-in one night and announced that he was applying for the Program Director's job at a big NE rock-station.
I told him that I didn't see how regular rock-radio stations were going to survive given that it would be nearly
impossible to play AC/DC and The Eagles along-side Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Etc.(Remember, this was like 1989-91
and Jeremy hadn't even hit the air yet). Anyway, I said that there would have to be a split. So get this: This dude
totally re-writes his resume/mission-statement and incorporates what would become "classic-rock"(I kid you not!).
Sure enough, "classic-rock" stations started popping-up, the other stations went with the grunge/alt/music "du jour",
and our beloved pop-metal died a horrible death(pushed along by fucking Beavis and Butthead). You could see it coming with all that Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, and RHCP-stuff creeping-in(I totally hated Under The Bridge and the fucking thing went to Billboard #1! Shows you how much I knew! FWIW, I still don't get-it ie: Its popularity).

[Note: BTW, all that grunge-stuff was next to impossible to market to the public;
It was literally the death of that sort of all-encompassing radio i/r/t promotions
(although all of that's changed now, but not really) Shit. Our promo-events were
like rock-concerts! Seriously. It was good times!]

FWIW, I was pushing for this sort of stuff:

Ozzy- Osbourne-No More Tears
Warrant-Hole in the Wall
Spread Eagle-Switchblade Serenade
Spread Eagle-Spread Eagle
Shotgun Messiah-Heartbreak Blvd
Tora Tora-Walkin' Shoes
Badlands-Dreams in the Dark
(Jake E. Lee and Ray Gillan(RIP) Just Wow!)
Ratt-What's It Gonna Be

Do any of those work for you?

Originally Posted by Rags

I file those in the "this sucks" folder.
Genesis sucks green donkey dicks.<snip razz>

Eh? Everbody's got some sort of dirty-little-secret/skeletons in the closet.
Really well-written pop-songs are mine, I suppose.
(I agree that Genesis really went downhill fast. Real fast).
Turn It On Again is still pretty cool, IMO.

Originally Posted by Rags

Geez, what a long assed post. You need to take a break from those male Boomers. Their bad habits are rubbing off on you.

C'mon Rags. How often do I post one of these?
Ok, this is now two, but it's been quite awhile.
Besides, at least they're not about some sorta BS that
I don't really know anything about(eg: Eric, PW, Etc.).

Originally Posted by Kepi

@ Prince of cats -

First off, thanks for the Jellyfish. I'd never heard of them before, and that's a song that should have made it.

You're very welcome, Kepi. Back-atcha for the SM and D/B/R-clips.

Well, I think it's great, but like I was sort of implying with my response, a song can be too good
(ie: too interesting). I mean, The Beatles-Let It Be, Bob Marley-No Woman, No Cry, Etc. Musically,
Let It Be just has the little dominant walkdown-thingy, and I believe No Woman, No Cry has no
key-change things at all!(just some basic rhythmic-stuff). I'm using them as examples b/c
I don't think those tunes "suck", per se. I would say that they are less interesting musically, though.
It's really difficult to get a tune to be a hit when there's alot of rhythmic and melodic/harmonic-stuff happening.

Kansas-Point of Know Return
(how the hell did that get to #28! ie: 15/4 Time. Plus it clocks-in at a hefty 2:52! Crazy!)
FWIW, I just think of that as 8+6(+1).

Originally Posted by Kepi

And yes, that's definitely a cliche of Streetlight's and definitely worth mentioning. Now, the reason I think it works (and yes it is part of the Russian Folk influence, I'm pretty sure that this is the Greenday track you were refering to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcn0...e_gdata_player it's been a while since I've listened to later era Greenday, so I'm not sure if that's even the song I'm thinking of) is that playing that way allows you to mesh different scales together rather easily. Now, you're right, it's a cliche and a bit of a crutch, but when you are playing in minor scale and you wanna hammer some thing out in the harmonic scale really quick and make it sound interesting and well put together, it's a good crutch to have. Also, while there's always multiple ways to do anything that you want to, Streetlight's stuff seems to integrate around certain lyrical and musical themes each album, and so having those crutches (they have a few) pay off in providing a cohesive feel to the albums and between albums.

I'm really not down on them, but it really just seems like that move is just all over alot of those bands. And that move is much more interesting(especially when playing in a minor-key, but like I kinda implied before, I'm pretty much burnt-out on it. But, I do agree that SM has alot more happening i/r/t instrumentation and rhythm. Actually,
in my circles, that secondary-dominant "cliche" is kind of a "music-school geek-thingy"^TM. BTW, when I say "cliche", I'm not saying it in any sort of bad way(ie: crutch). It's actually an industry term. Like, "The Minor"-"cliche" is when you start in a minor key, and make both other minor-chords(The 4 and/or 5) major(dominant).
(eg: The beginning of Stairway, because you get that nice descending, chromatic harmony-line
(ie: A, G#, G, F#, F), or The Eagles-Hotel California's main verse progression. Are you down with that sort of thing?(I'm just checking).

[Note: Using the Nashville Number System, that Minor-cliche is 6-chord(the root/octave), Dom3-chord(the 3rd),
6-chord(the b7-note), Dom-2(the third), 4(the root/octave)].
So, from my POV, I really don't get stuck in those sort of
Major-key/Minor-key things/"ruts"].

I'm not going continue with The Nashville Number System unless it's something that you're interested in. No sweat.

Originally Posted by Kepi

The lead singer of Streetlight Manifesto was the leadsinger of Catch-22 for their first album called "Keasbey Nights", which Streetlight rerecorded to prevent then Catch-22's lineup from remastering and rereleasing the old album under their name. Anyway, Live Streetlight will play "Point/Counterpoint" off the album Everything Goes numb and mash Keasbey Nights title track smack in the middle of it. It makes for a fantastic sound. So yeah, I very much agree with your criticism, even though I think that that same element that is their cliche is what also makes them strong.

That re-recording the album sounds like a really smart move on his part. Most musicians I know are
greedy, ego-driven, SOBs(understanding that it does take a certain amount of ego just to get on stage
and put yourself out there).

Originally Posted by Kepi

Also, Compression in it's own right isn't bad, and I didn't mean to sound like compression = always bad, even though I probably came off that way. Compression is a tool. What I'm opposed to is compression as an institutional rule. If a performer decides they want to use compression on a track, that's their vision for the song and I'm okay with that. Upping it for radio was bad enough (if radio needs it to feel safe and like they won't blow out somebody's speakers because the genius wants to play his stereo so bad, then they should be the ones that get a compressed version), but now it's just gotten so ridiculous and it's like you're seeing the literal wall of sound. It's always the same volume when there is volume. Music shouldn't always sound like that.

I totally understand what you were saying about compression is just one(of many tools).
I believe you stated earlier that, as soon as the signal gets into the system, it's basically
getting processed(even with the more analog-stuff). It was actually those statements by
you that told me that you have an understanding i/r/t what's going-on. Quite honestly, if
I didn't think you had a clue, I wouldn't be bothering attempting to discuss this stuff.
(There is a guy named Cole94(IIRC), that I believe has a decent handle on some stuff).
[Note: Please don't take any of this, as me attempting to think I'm cool or anything.
It really is a very different way of approaching/analyzing music].

Just curious. Do you like Gorillaz: Feel Good Inc.?(FWIW, I do).


Ooooo. I have to jump-in here.

Originally Posted by Kepi

@ Ragnarok -

All very classic pulls. That is my favorite KISS track. For what it's worth, this is my favorite zep track: WIAWSNB

Fave Zep-tune: Achilles Last Stand
2nd Place: In The Light
3rd Place: Carouselambra
Honorable Mention: Like, every other Zep-tune!


Prince

PS: BTW Kepi. If you're at all interested, you can respond by hitting the "reply with quote"
and you will get the person's original response. It's basically:

1: ]QUOTE=Whomever[
2: Fill in with whatever stuff you want
3: ]/QUOTE[
[Note: I reversed the brackets so they would show-up instead of doing this:

Originally Posted by whomever

Fill in with whatever stuff you want

...and don't forget the backslash on the close-quote]

The only reason I bring it up is because I don't read-through many posts.
I really only happened to catch that you had responded to me in that response to Rags.
But, whatever...

[QUOTE = princeofcats67] stuff [/Quote]

If I sound half stupid when I'm talking music, it's because I sorta never learned my notes. I just assigned everything numbers and learned the patterns for my scales. So I know where my key changes are relative to my current one, and I know what each note will be, by sound, based on my current position. It's always worked for me, but it's very much made me half literate. Your explanation strikes me as good, though I think I'm tracking what you're saying (at least when I'm making the pattern on the fretboard in my head it's making sense).

Also, I know you're not meaning cliche as an insult, much like I don't mean crutch as one. Everybody has musical crutches. You develop enough and people call that style. Like for instance I have a tendancy to drop or jump an octave to riff. I just think it works when the last note of the progression proper matches the first note of your riff. It's not an all the time thing, but it's great for when I see that pocket opening up and I've got nothing. I also have a tendency to use sustained notes in busy songs and to double up notes in not so busy ones in the last chorus of a song. It's good emphasis. Now, if you only use crutches, that's annoying, but having a several to choose from makes some amazing moments happen because you're semipredictable.

Now as far as Kansas does what it does... I have no clue. All the other proggy bands have these moments that don't quite fully fit together right, Times where they're too abrupt or where they flub timing to force things to fit... Not Kansas, though. I figure their song writing sessions had to be half discussion, half controlled experiments. They're just so tight and so polished (and in a good way).

I think Feel Good, Inc. Is one of their best singles, actually. It's got a great bass line, and there's so much going on in it vocally, but it's long enough that there's a lot of wide open points that really allows you to hear everything that's going on in the song.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Y
1: ]QUOTE=Whomever[
2: Fill in with whatever stuff you want
3: ]/QUOTE[
[Note: I reversed the brackets so they would show-up instead of doing this:

...and don't forget the backslash on the close-quote]

Well, you can use delimiters : {Program start}

▌ (& heavy metal(♪ ♫ )&▐ ꜛ (2-A(♦♥♣♠)poker) ► ┌ ͼ ˄ ˁ Ƹ<|(`"Rags does"')|>Ʒˀ˅ͽ┐◄(2-A(poker(♠♣♥♦) ꜜ ▌♫ ♪ (heavy metal&)▐
öÿ © @Chas.
{Program end}

I do know you write cryptic posts sometimes, so I think this set of delimiters will aid in that cause. Basically , you can say what you need to, without being verbose. The expanded character set creates a new sort of sentence where one has the usual Subject/verb/object with delimiters, nouns, verbs, etc.The delimiters denote which sentence parts are to be grouped together. It can be cryptic to begin with until you get the hang of it.

Originally Posted by Kepi

[QUOTE = princeofcats67] stuff

<chuckle> I'm not sure, but I think your last bracket is [/Quote], instead of [/QUOTE]
(The word "QUOTE" in all Caps).

Originally Posted by Kepi

If I sound half stupid when I'm talking music, it's because I sorta never learned my notes. I just assigned everything numbers and learned the patterns for my scales. So I know where my key changes are relative to my current one, and I know what each note will be, by sound, based on my current position. It's always worked for me, but it's very much made me half literate. Your explanation strikes me as good, though I think I'm tracking what you're saying (at least when I'm making the pattern on the fretboard in my head it's making sense).

Also, I know you're not meaning cliche as an insult, much like I don't mean crutch as one. Everybody has musical crutches. You develop enough and people call that style. Like for instance I have a tendancy to drop or jump an octave to riff. I just think it works when the last note of the progression proper matches the first note of your riff. It's not an all the time thing, but it's great for when I see that pocket opening up and I've got nothing. I also have a tendency to use sustained notes in busy songs and to double up notes in not so busy ones in the last chorus of a song. It's good emphasis. Now, if you only use crutches, that's annoying, but having a several to choose from makes some amazing moments happen because you're semipredictable.

Now as far as Kansas does what it does... I have no clue. All the other proggy bands have these moments that don't quite fully fit together right, Times where they're too abrupt or where they flub timing to force things to fit... Not Kansas, though. I figure their song writing sessions had to be half discussion, half controlled experiments. They're just so tight and so polished (and in a good way).

I think Feel Good, Inc. Is one of their best singles, actually. It's got a great bass line, and there's so much going on in it vocally, but it's long enough that there's a lot of wide open points that really allows you to hear everything that's going on in the song.

On the contrary, Kepi. Like I said before, if I didn't think you had something to offer, I wouldn't
be spending my time responding to you(not that my responding to you is any big deal, or anything). IOW, I don't feel you sound stupid at all.

FWIW, I composed a reponse that turned into an 8000+-character monstrosity(!) on some stuff i/r/t playing/approaching/analyzing music b/m/o The Nashville Number System vs the normal(common) Classical-style(ie: Notes on a Staff). I'm going to take that as a cue to stop here and spare you more of my wisdom!

If you ever have any questions i/r/t Music, I hope you'll feel free to ask.


Later,

Prince

PS: FWIW, you sound as if you're doing just fine on your own, Kepi. My only suggestion is
that sometime you may want to get around to knowing the notes, but if it's not really an
issue for you, well, you know.

ETA: Is it correct that you have stated in the past that you play bass-guitar and/or drums?

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Well, you can use delimiters : {Program start}

▌ (& heavy metal(♪ ♫ )&▐ ꜛ (2-A(♦♥♣♠)poker) ► ┌ ͼ ˄ ˁ Ƹ<|(`"Rags does"')|>Ʒˀ˅ͽ┐◄(2-A(poker(♠♣♥♦) ꜜ ▌♫ ♪ (heavy metal&)▐
öÿ © @Chas.
{Program end}

I do know you write cryptic posts sometimes, so I think this set of delimiters will aid in that cause.<snip ultra-smiley> Basically , you can say what you need to, without being verbose. The expanded character set creates a new sort of sentence where one has the usual Subject/verb/object with delimiters, nouns, verbs, etc.The delimiters denote which sentence parts are to be grouped together. It can be cryptic to begin with until you get the hang of it.

Cryptic? Moi?

Yeah. I guess you could say that.
(I must admit I did really enjoy a couple posts I made on this thread!)

Ok. So, I know I'm a noob and all, but there's no better teacher
than jumping-in and getting your(ie: my) ass-kicked, so here goes:

Rags '62 aka , but Prince!

I think I'll have to do some research and get back to you. BTW, pretty cool post, IMO.


Prince

PS: BTW Rags. If "öÿ © @Chas" means what I think it means
(and I do believe I do know what it means)...LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Cryptic? Moi?

Yeah. I guess you could say that. <snip smily>
(I must admit I did really enjoy a couple posts I made on this thread! <snip cool>)

Yup. It seems to be some sort of thing wrt Playwrite.

[quote]
Ok. So, I know I'm a noob and all, but there's no better teacher
than jumping-in and getting your(ie: my) ass-kicked, so here goes:

Rags '62 aka ,

The rune for "M". It fits both of us. for "meow" and one of the letters my ancestors used.

but Prince! <snip cool> is also for usic. <snip cool>

I think I'll have to do some research and get back to you. BTW, pretty cool post, IMO.

Thank you. I'm pretty much pegged on the MBTI "N" thingie.

PS: BTW Rags. If "öÿ © @Chas" means what I think it means
(and I do believe I do know what it means)...LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, that one's easy. It translates directly to "oy".IOW "copywright @ howdy, Chas".

PS

Vbulletin quota is lame.