Originally Posted by Chas'88

Let's see... the only thing I would necessarily disagree with is uprisings during the Great Awakening being a "US only" affair. I'm not sure that's an accurate portrayal of England at the time. After all there was "the Forty-Five" which was all about the possibility of bringing Bonnie Prince Charlie onto the thrown and undoing the Glorious Revolution.

The Great Awakening was clearly an awakening turning in Britain. It is supported by the economic data, by alcohol consumption and crime stats (see table in previous post) and by the development of Methodism in Britain at that time. It simply does not show up as particularly elevated in unrest events, that's all. As for the events you describe, they appear in the data base:

1708 Jacobite Rising
1715 Jacobite Rising
1719 Jacobite Rising
1724 The Galloway Levelers’ Revolt
1736 Porteous riots
1743 Gin riots
1745 Jacobite Rising
1769 Spitalfield riots

There are just more events in the1704-27 High than in the 1727-46 Awakening. Unrest isn’t elevated compared to the background level in adjacent turnings. These indicators doesn’t always "light up" when there is a social moment. That's why I use as many as I can find. In the table in the previous post every on of the 11 2T/4T turnings has at least one aligned indicator, 10 of them have two indicators and 5 have three or more, pretty much establishing the existence of the saeculum back to 1300.

Once the existence of a 2T/4T turning has been established, one can then delve into the story of that period to develop the political story to see if it manifests into Butlerian spirals of violence . For example, the Jabobin story has chapters in 1708, 1715, 1719 and finally 1745, at which time the story comes to a conclusion. This “spiral” helps define the turning as a crisis (small “c”) which is typically present in social moment turnings, as you observed with the Baron’s wars in the 13^th century.

Just as important as the spirals is the cultural story, particularly religion. Here is a list of religious events from my database. More events fall into Great Awakening than in either of the adjacent turnings.

1701 Bray founds Society for the Propagation of the Faith
1717 Freemasonry begins
1728 Bill Law "A serious call to a devout and holy life"
1733 Oglethorpe founds Georgia (Bray's idea)
1734 Connecticut Valley Awakening
1738 John and Charles Wesley's religious experiences
1744 Methodist Society Founded
1772 Shakers founded
1774 National Baptist Convention
1779 Amazing Grace (written by a repentant slaver)
1784 Methodist Church established

The unrest event measure is one that can be done at earlier times. So is the religious event measure. But you need a lot of event to analysis to get any resolution. A single country won't have enough events. Therefore one has to expand the region examined, hence the thrust of my recent posts.

The unrest analysis* shows that France and Britain have been on the same saeculum since 1350. There is also broad alignment across Western Europe for four turnings: Plague crisis, Reformation Awakening (two distinct phases), Puritan Awakening and the Revolutionary Crisis (two distinct phases). Assuming that the saeculum exists, aligned turnings spaced 1.0 to 1.5 saecula apart strongly suggests alignment at other times, the unrest analysis simply does not pick them up. That is it would seem Western Europe has been on the same saecula since the 14^th century.

This means that instead of analyzing history on a nation-by-nation basis, we should look at history for the entire region as a whole. Reasons for this are given below

1. It is known that all of Western Europe was fully integrated into an international trade and financial system centered in northern Italy by the 14^th century (see Braudel, Civilization and Capitalism vol 3).
2. All of Western Europe shared a common culture centered on Christianity. The church served as a supra-national body that coordinated this culture and enabled new developments to spread rapidly throughout the entire region.
3. The ruling class in the 15^th century and before belonged to a supranational class of warrior-nobles who shared kinship, professional outlook and worldviews.
4. Improving communications (e.g. the printing press, improved roads and ships) ensued that once aligned, the nations would stay that way even as nationalism and the Protestant Reformation severely damaged #2 and #3.

I propose that there is enough evidence to accept the conjecture that the saeculum operates at a supranational scale, and so movements occurring in multiple countries can be considered as part of an organic whole. This was an implied assumption in the concept of the mega-awakening** and also in the story of the cultural path from the Mendicant mega-Awakening to the Reformation mega-Awakening***

*Unrest periods analysis: Investigation of a pre-1435 saeculum:
post 14 (18^th cent)
post 18 (17^th cent)
post 19 (16^th cent)
post 21 (14-15^th cent)

**Mega-Awakening list: The MegaSaeculum post 299

***Catholic to Protestant, example of a story linking the Mendicant mega-awakening with the Reformation mega-awakening: The MegaSaeculum posts 295, 296, 297 In this story the ordinary Awakenings serves as “chapters”.

Because Eric the Green needs educating on what actual Medieval society was like, Pat will get a kick out of this, and I think this is a great resource for this thread:



~Chas'88

Continuing the series:



~Chas'88

Continuing:



~Chas'88

Continuing:



~Chas'88

Here is an outline of six pre-1435 Awakening turnings fit into the mega-awakening framework. Pocket histories of the first three will follow (the last three have already been discussed in The MegaSaeculum posts 295, 296, 297 ). I discovered a number of things when researching this. One was the millenarian "peace movement" right around the year 1000. The terms "awakening" and "Millennial generation" have been used by historians to describe the phenomenon. The name "Russian awakening" was apparently given to it by Dave McG because Russia became Christian in the turning. Another thing I discovered was the Papal revolution around 1100 that resulted in the formation of a European system of law and the rise of universities which happened at the same time as the Crusades and the rise of the Cistercian movement, which really nails the early 12th century as an Awakening era. In ohter words there was a real spiritual awakening around 1000 AD, a spirtual and intellectual awakening around 1100; another spiritual awakening in the early 13th cent, and a spiritual, intellectual and artistic awakening in the early 14th century (thanks to Eric for putting me on to the 14th century artistic upsurge).

1. Cluny mega-awakening
   
   1. Photian awakening (886-912)
      
      1. Cluny founded AD 909
      2. Filoque controversy increased tensions between Latin and Greek church, will lead to schism in 1054
      3. Central figures: hero archetype Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, prophet archetype William the Pious, founder of Cluny
      
      
   2. Russian awakening (996-1024)
      
      1. Millenarian peace movement (Pax Dei, Treva Dei) precursor to development of concept of property rights independent of the state.
      2. Central figure artist archetype Odilo, 5^th Abbot of Cluny
      
      
   3. Crusade awakening (1095-1122)
      
      1. Investiture crisis leading to establishment of canon law and legal compendia, stimulating the birth of universities to train those who would administer this system,
      2. Cisterican movement
      3. The Crusades
      4. Beginning of military religious orders Knights Templar and Hospitaler.
      5. Central figure prophet archetype Bernard of Clairvaux
      6. Bldg index 0.17 for 3 decades after 1095 vs. 0.5 for 3 decades before
   
   
2. Mendicant mega-awakening
   
   1. Mendicant awakening
      
      1. Franciscans founded
      2. Dominicans founded
      3. Other mendicant orders founded (Carmelites, Servites)
      4. Albigensian crusade suppresses Cathar and Waldenses movements
      5. Central figure: prophet archetype Francis of Assisi
      6. High econ stress 1202-27
      7. Bldg index 0.05 for 4 decades after 1195 vs. 0.18 for 4 decades before
      
      
   2. Avignon awakening
      
      1. Conflict over clerical poverty and church involvement in secular matters
      2. Suppression of spiritual Franciscans for claiming Christ and the apostles had no property
      3. Central figure: prophet archetype William of Ockham
      4. High econ stress (Eng) 1308-1330
      5. High unrest 1303-1330 (Eng), high crime rate 1315-1330 (Eng)
      6. Bldg index 0 for 3 decades after 1300 vs. 0.2 for 3 decades before
      
      
   3. Hussite awakening
      
      1. Hussite movement (Lollard)
      2. Beginning of Moravian church (first protestants)
      3. Lollard uprising under Sir John Oldcastle
      4. Nomad archetype and mystic Joan of Arc rescues France from English dominion
      5. Central figure artist archetype Jan Hus
      6. High econ stress (Eng) 1392-1435
      7. High unrest 1411-20 (Eng+Fr)

Photian Awakening (886-912)

Cluny monastery
The disintegration of the Carolingian Empire in the ninth century resulting in a failed state with numerous warlords ruling over their own petty kingdoms, a phenomenon we have seen in modern times in East Africa and central Asia. The reform of the monasteries by a movement originating in the early 10^th century was a first response this political disintegration. The impetus for the reforms was corruption within the church, particularly simony and concubinage. These abuses were thought to be a result of secular interference in the monasteries and of the Church's tight integration with the feudal and manorial systems. Since a Benedictine monastery required land, it needed the patronage of a local lord. However, the lord would often demand rights and assert prerogatives that interfered with the operation of the monastery.

To address this problem, sometime before 907 pious nobleman and prophet archtype Gerald of Aurillac had established a monastery at Aurillac with a charter that guaranteed it freedom from all local authorities, both lay and ecclesiastical, and made it subject only to the pope. The monastery of Aurillac did not prosper to any great degree, but it inspired similar attempts.

Prophet archetype William the Pious, Duke of Aquitaine formed the first Cluny monastery in 909. Following Gerald’s example he stipulated that the monastery would report directly to the pope rather than to a local lord. He also appointed a competent abbot, artist archetype Berno, who had already founded a flourishing abbey at Baume in about 890. After 15 years of service Berno retired, leaving the abbey in the capable hands of his disciple, prophet archetype Odo, who implemented a series of reforms.

An important element of the Cluniac reforms was that reformed monasteries should no longer be quasi-independent (as Benedictine monasteries had been), but part of a hierarchy controlled by the abbots from Cluny itself, and in the last analysis by the bishop of Rome. That is, Cluny established a corporate model for monasticism. The reform movement was an immediate success – estimates of the number of new monasteries show a strong increase during the 10th century, which seems to precede the economic upswing of the late 10th and 11th centuries.

Free of lay and episcopal interference, responsible only to the papacy, which was in a state of weakness and disorder with rival popes supported by competing Italian nobles, Cluniac spirit revitalized the Norman church. Within his order, the Abbot of Cluny was free to assign any monk to any house; he created a fluid structure around a central authority that was to become a feature of the royal chanceries of England and of France, and of ducal bureaucracy. This centralized hierarchy also served as a training ground for Catholic prelates; three monks of Cluny became reforming popes: Gregory VII (1073), Urban II (1088-99) and Paschal II (1099-1118) during the time leading up to and including the Crusade Awakening (1095-1122).

Grow in number of monasteries 6th through 15th centuries (disregard the periods, they are spacers, not decimal points)

. Cent	. France	W Europe	Founded
. 6	. 586	. 1193	. 1013
. 7	. 988	. 2094	. 1021
. 8	. 1240	. 3168	. 1284
. 9	. 1636	. 4385	. 1533
. 10	. 2091	. 6343	. 2397
. 11	. 5051	. 12485	. 6776
. 12	. 8104	. 20125	. 8888
. 13	. 8564	. 21948	. 3836
. 14	. 8189	. 21270	. 1516
. 15	. 7554	. 20369	. 1226

Monastic corporations achieved substantial increases in productivity by systematically exploiting existing innovations: three field system and the new horse collar with which the ox could be replaced by the stronger horse, allowing the use of the heavy mouldboard plough. Cistercians incorporated previously untilled tracts, cleared forests and drained submerged areas. Monasteries also developed new ways of securing their growing riches. The strong growth of the monasteries spearheaded by Cluny increased the stock of people able to read and write and the output of books and other written products (Table 2). Widespread monastic literacy enabled formal documentation of the properties owned or gifts received in written charters as a proof of ownership. During the next awakening the Cluniac monasteries played a significant role in the Peace of God movement, particularly under Odilo the fifth abbot (994-1049).

Russian Awakening (996-1024)

Peace of God
The first clear examples of Church councils trying to impose some kind of peace on their population date from 975 at Le Puy, in Central France and was promoted at a series of important councils in 989, 990, 994, 1000, 1028, 1031, 1032 and 1038. Thomas Gergen posits that the Peace of God was part of a generational millennial movement:

This generation was marked by a great religious “movement” with several key dates and a high point which came between 1020 and 1030. We have record of numerous assemblies of the Peace of God, of heresy, of pilgrimages to Jerusalem and of veneration of saints and relics. We can, in short, speak of this generation as participating in a millennium zeitgeist. [Thomas Gergen (2002) The Peace of God and its legal practice in the Eleventh Century, Cuadernos de Historia del Derecho 9 11-27].

The cult of the saints was central to the movement; relics from the surrounding areas were brought to peace meetings and used to arouse the enthusiasm of the masses in attendance. The organizers proclaimed the intervention of the saints and the heavenly order to try to diminish the violence against church lands and the defenseless so as (through the agency of the saints) to bring the peace of the heavenly order as described in Augustine’s The City of God. Those in attendance would take oaths on the relics to reinforce their commitment to the idea of social peace. Another instrument used to enforce the peace besides awe of the saints was the threat of excommunication.

Soon, the protected group was extended to include travelers (often merchants, but also pilgrims) peasants and noblewomen. A further development was the Truce of God, an attempt to stop all violence during certain periods, mainly Christian holidays; as time went on this was also applied to festivals and fairs. Although the success of these movements was limited, the moralizing and the admonitions did have an impact on subsequent developments.

As the 11^th century unfolded, the movement morphed into Peace leagues, which organized militias to enforce the peace. For example in the mid-1030s a league at Bourges summoned all men over fifteen years old to join a sworn league to enforce the peace. This popular army of peasants and townsmen, led by priests carrying banners had considerable initial success against the local nobility before being crushed in 1038. After this the high aristocracy used the Truce of God as the center of legislative action aimed at restricting private warfare, by declaring Thursday through Sunday a days of peace. Cluny’s involvement in the spread of this institution to Germany and Italy places prophet archetype Odilo, perhaps the greatest religious man of his age, at the center of an effort to implement a millennial program.

At Narbonne (1054) the organizers established the general principle that to kill a Christian was to shed the blood of Christ, as opposed to the killing of a Jew or Muslim. This principle that reflects a fundamental change in the Peace movement, from repressing the aggressiveness of the warrior class to redirecting it against the enemies of Christendom. This concept would be reinforced at the council of Clermont at the start of the next awakening.

The Peace movement suggests that the Church attempted to pacify social and political relations and so create law and order necessary for the existence of free markets and free use of property. Through efforts like this the Church was able to strengthen its ideological position. Its economic position was strengthened through reforms such as the Cluniac movement. Both of these positioned it for the Papal Revolution of the late 11th and early 12th centuries.

Crusade Awakening (1095-1122):

First Crusade
At the Council of Clermont in 1095, hero archetype Pope Urban II (a former Cluny monk) mobilized the warriors of all Western Europe by declaring a perpetual peace among Christians and war upon Islam. The immediate response to this call was a People’s Crusade under Peter the Hermit. Subsequently, the armed forces of the collected nobility of Europe under under the banners of a collection of great lords: Adhemar of Le Puy, Raymond of Toulouse, Bohemond of Taranto and his nephew Tancred; Godfrey of Bouillon and his brother Baldwin of Boulogne; Hugh of Vermandois; Robert Curthose of Normandy and his relatives Stephen of Blois and Robert of Flanders. They were successful in capturing Jerusalem; establishing The Kingdom of Jerusalem and three additional territories: County of Edessa, Principality of Antioch, and County of Tripoli. Out of the First Crusade grew the religious military orders of the Knights Templar (founded 1118 by prophet archetype Hugues de Payens) and Knights Hospitaller (founded 1113 by hero archetype Gerard Thom), which provided an additional outlet for noble energies consistent with the need for Peace.

Papal Revolution
Berman (1983) has explained how in his view the emergence of the Western legal tradition in the 11th and 12th centuries was a by-product of the Papal Revolution (c1070-1122). The legal system of Europe before the 10th century was a rather fragmented mixture of Germanic and Roman law traditions, combined with rulings and doctrines issued by (different parts of) the Church, often (in a rather loose way) based on the Bible. There were no professional judges, lawyers, law schools, or court system. Also lacking was a distinct body of rules and concepts that would comprise the law, nor were there developed theories of the sources of law

This was all to change during a brief period centered during the Crusade Awakening (1095-1122). The key issue of the time times was the right to appoint bishops (investiture) and other religious dignitaries – a right previously held by (or shared with) secular authorities. Nomad archetype pope Gregory VII (another Cluny alum) declared that the Church was to be free from secular control and the sole religious authority, and asserted sole power of investiture, which brought about the Investiture Crisis (1075-1122). By formulating this claim, the religious and the secular were separated; kings were stripped of part of their power, and separate spheres of authority and law were defined, which became characteristic of Europe ever since. In short, a separate legal order was created, the Church, and the legal system that governed it was systematized.

Canonists – in particular Gratian, who published the “bible‟ of canonic law, the Decretum in 1140 – developed a systematized set of laws governing the Church and many related topics, such as family life. This included laws concerning testaments and similar contracts and the protection of the poor and the vulnerable (widows and orphans). In response to these growing claims by the Church for influence in secular affairs, the emerging states of Western Europe were induced to develop their own legal systems. The growing attention to law that resulted from this competition between Church and state led to the development of a legal science, taught and practiced in the new universities that sprung up all over Europe in the next century (Berman 1983: 160-164).

Berman, Harold, Law and Revolution: the formation of the western legal tradition. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1983.

Cistercians
The Benedictine abbot of Molesme Robert, along with Alberic, Stephen Harding and twenty others, left Molesme in 1098 and founded a new monastery at Cîteaux (Latin Cistercium), from which came the name of the order. Robert and his followers felt the Cluniac communities they had left had strayed overmuch from St Benedict's Rule. The headquarters abbey at Cluny, the largest in Europe, had become very wealthy and abbots there had been drawn into the affairs of the secular world and their monks had abandoned manual labor (which was now done by serfs) in order to serve as administrative officials. After about a year Robert was ordered to return to Molesme and promoted his prior Alberic to abbot. Alberic was followed by Stephen Harding after his death in 1108,

The new order developed this land by their own labour, or by that of illiterate peasant lay brothers to whom Stephen Harding had handed over the west wing of Cîteaux. These lay brothers were bound by vows of chastity and obedience to their abbot, but were otherwise permitted to follow a less demanding form of Cistercian life. Their incorporation into the order represents a compassionate outreach to the illiterate peasantry, as well as a source of labour on "unmanorialized" Cistercian lands.

The organization of the Cistercians, as they came to be called was a compromise between the primitive Benedictine system, in which each abbey was autonomous and isolated, and the complete centralization of Cluny.

Each abbey had its own abbot elected by its own monks, its own community, its own property, and it administered its finance without outside interference. On the other hand, all the abbeys were subjected to the General Chapter, the constitutional body which exercised vigilance over the order. The abbots were required to meet annually at Cîteaux. The Abbot of Cîteaux was the president of the chapter and had the power to enforce exact conformity to Cîteaux in all details of the exterior life observance, chant, and customs. Cîteaux should always be the model to which the other houses were to conform.

In 1111 the ranks had grown sufficiently to start a "daughter house" at Chalon sur Saône in La Ferté. That same year, a charismatic young Burgundian nobleman named Bernard arrived at Cîteaux with 35 of his relatives and friends to join the monastery. A supremely eloquent, strong-willed mystic, prophet archetype Bernard was to become the most admired churchman of his age. In 1115, Bernard led twelve other monks to found the Abbey of Clairvaux, which soon attracted a strong flow of zealous young men

With Saint Bernard's membership, the Cistercian order began a notable epoch of international expansion; as his fame grew, so did the Cistercian movement. It spread to England in 1128, Austria in 1129, Wales in 1131, Scotland in 1136 and Ireland in 1140. From this solid base, the order spread into Germany, Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Croatia, Italy, Sicily, Poland, Hungary, Norway, Sweden, Spain and Portugal. By 1152 the order encompassed 333 monasteries, a hundred-fold increase over just 37 years earlier.

The Cistercians supplanted Cluny as the most powerful order and chief religious influence in western Europe. Already in 1145, a Cistercian had become Pope prophet archetype Eugene III. As with the Cluniacs, the farming operations tended to produce a commercial spirit and wealth and splendour invaded many of the monasteries and the choir monks abandoned field-work. As the purpose of the Cistercian Order consisted in its being a reform – a return to field-work and severe simplicity, any failures to live up to the ideal proposed was more detrimental among them than among the Cluniacs, who were intended to live a life of self-denial but not of great austerity.

And so in time Cistercian influence began to wane and the initiative passed to the new mendicant orders in the first quarter of the 13^th century.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Because Eric the Green needs educating on what actual Medieval society was like, Pat will get a kick out of this, and I think this is a great resource for this thread:



~Chas'88

Is it available on DVD? Because to watch it on YouTube with the equipment I have calls for being perched in front of the computer for a long, long time. Sigh. (signed) Nellie Ludd.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Is it available on DVD? Because to watch it on YouTube with the equipment I have calls for being perched in front of the computer for a long, long time. Sigh. (signed) Nellie Ludd.

Oooo! A "damsel in distress"!
(Damn my "quixotic" nature! ).

OK, Badge'. The way I see it, what we're dealing with is
a way to connect your TDC to your "punch and judy".

I suspect the most expedient solution would be to enlist the aid of someone
in your locality, but there may be some homework we might do here on the
Message Board.

Q: What hardware are you working with?
(ie: what type of computer and TV are you using?)
(eg: a desktop that is in a different room than a digital TV?)

It may at first appear to be a daunting endeavor,
but I believe there's most likely a cost-effective answer.
(eg: one of those wireless-thingys ).


Prince(Ned)

PS:
I do seriously want to find a way to make this happen for you, Badge'.
Let me know if I can be of any assistance. And possibly, there might be
someone on the Message Board that is actually knowledgable in this
area(ie: not me!) that might be willing to lend a hand(hint-hint, people).

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Is it available on DVD? Because to watch it on YouTube with the equipment I have calls for being perched in front of the computer for a long, long time. Sigh. (signed) Nellie Ludd.

Here's Amazon's price for it: 25 bucks for 8 half-hour episodes. http://www.amazon.com/Terry-Jones-Me.../dp/B0010V4VJY

~Chas'88

Continuing:



Fun tidbit: England was saved for Henry III by an English woman in her seventies named Nichola who was constable of Lincoln and trapped in castle when the French invaded the town. She was "rescued" by her equally aged "knight in shining armor" who was also in his seventies and regent of England while Henry III was still a boy. Together they helped push back the French and kept Lincoln from falling into French hands and saved England for Henry III.

Now why can't we make a movie about two seventy year olds doing stuff like that?

~Chas'88

Continuing:



~Chas'88

In this video he talks about the Cistercians--which Mikebert ought to like since he's talking about the various Awakenings.



~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Here's Amazon's price for it: 25 bucks for 8 half-hour episodes. http://www.amazon.com/Terry-Jones-Me.../dp/B0010V4VJY

~Chas'88

Yeah! It looks as if "chivalry is not dead", just yet!


Prince

PS: (I couldn't help but get a laugh that we "knights" are becoming obselete
considering that all Badge' has to do these days is turn to an "Amazon").

I am interested in feedback on the awakening scheme presented. Basically I fleshed out the "development" theme between the Cluny mega-awakening and the Mendicant mega-awakening, as I had done with the "inauthenticity" theme between the Mendicant Awakening and the Reformation. The stories for all of these awakenings extends to period both before and after the turning itself. The turning is more or less at the center. For example, the Peace movement began around 975, twenty years before the start of the awakening and extended to 1038, 14 years after as a popular movement. It then shifted into more of an elite movement during the next three turnings and then re-emerged as the full-blown Crusader movement at the outset of the next awakening. This movement merged with old connections of military honor to produce the form of Chivalry we are familiar, in which the knight was supposed to be the protector of the weak, a concept completely absent from classical notions of military virtue and honor.

The various awakening phenomena are real, but since the lengths of the movements is longer than an ~27 years turning length, there is a lot of latitude in how you want to draw the turning.

One thing that might be of interest would be to look at the archetypes of the player in these movements. Chas, any films/plays/novels about Peter the hermit, or Odillo abbot of Cluny during the Peace of God movement? I tried to identify the generation archetype of the people I mentioned (using McGuiness scheme). What is your take on these guys?

Originally Posted by Mikebert

Here is an outline of six pre-1435 Awakening turnings fit into the mega-awakening framework. Pocket histories of the first three will follow (the last three have already been discussed in The MegaSaeculum posts 295, 296, 297 ). I discovered a number of things when researching this. One was the millenarian "peace movement" right around the year 1000. The terms "awakening" and "Millennial generation" have been used by historians to describe the phenomenon. The name "Russian awakening" was apparently given to it by Dave McG because Russia became Christian in the turning. Another thing I discovered was the Papal revolution around 1100 that resulted in the formation of a European system of law and the rise of universities which happened at the same time as the Crusades and the rise of the Cistercian movement, which really nails the early 12th century as an Awakening era. In ohter words there was a real spiritual awakening around 1000 AD, a spirtual and intellectual awakening around 1100; another spiritual awakening in the early 13th cent, and a spiritual, intellectual and artistic awakening in the early 14th century (thanks to Eric for putting me on to the 14th century artistic upsurge).

There was an artistic movement in the German Alps just prior to the Renaissance, where they painted scenes of the bible with backgrounds from the German Alps. They were quite stunning sights to be seen. I forget what the movement was called, but when I saw the paintings in the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Wien they were quite exquisit and stood out as breaking from the traditional Medieval mold in their use of color and landscape. I want to say it was centered around what would now be Southern Germany and Western Austria: the Salzburg/Innsbruck/Munich/Augsburg areas. IIRC the painters moved up into seclusion in the Alps in order to paint.

1. Cluny mega-awakening
   
   1. Photian awakening (886-912)
      
      1. Cluny founded AD 909
      2. Filoque controversy increased tensions between Latin and Greek church, will lead to schism in 1054
      3. Central figures: hero archetype Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, prophet archetype William the Pious, founder of Cluny
      
      
   2. Russian awakening (996-1024)
      
      1. Millenarian peace movement (Pax Dei, Treva Dei) precursor to development of concept of property rights independent of the state.
      2. Central figure artist archetype Odilo, 5^th Abbot of Cluny
      
      
   3. Crusade awakening (1095-1122)
      
      1. Investiture crisis leading to establishment of canon law and legal compendia, stimulating the birth of universities to train those who would administer this system,
      2. Cisterican movement
      3. The Crusades
      4. Beginning of military religious orders Knights Templar and Hospitaler.
      5. Central figure prophet archetype Bernard of Clairvaux
      6. Bldg index 0.17 for 3 decades after 1095 vs. 0.5 for 3 decades before

So the styles of early French Gothic architecture, which begins around 1140, would thus be an Unraveling artistic project to begin with. And the early English Gothic architecture, which begins around 1180, would thus be a High artistic project then. That makes sense to me as I've found "ornate but impractical architecture" to be a typical Unraveling concept, while "practical and simplistic" to be a more High concept. There also tends to be a "reinvention" in architectural possibilities that occur between the two periods and really takes off in the High. The early French Gothic is a very heavy but ornate style of building. Meanwhile the English Gothic implements the concept of the flying buttress which made the architecture "leaner" and more able to open up with light--which fit the concept at the time that "God was light".

It might be interesting to check how periods of different Gothic architecture line up with different saeculums... In England the periods line up roughly:

Early: ~1180 - 1275
Decorated: ~1275 - 1380
Perpendicular: ~1380 - 1520

1. Mendicant mega-awakening
   
   1. Mendicant awakening
      
      1. Franciscans founded
      2. Dominicans founded
      3. Other mendicant orders founded (Carmelites, Servites)
      4. Albigensian crusade suppresses Cathar and Waldenses movements
      5. Central figure: prophet archetype Francis of Assisi
      6. High econ stress 1202-27
      7. Bldg index 0.05 for 4 decades after 1195 vs. 0.18 for 4 decades before
      
      
   2. Avignon awakening
      
      1. Conflict over clerical poverty and church involvement in secular matters
      2. Suppression of spiritual Franciscans for claiming Christ and the apostles had no property
      3. Central figure: prophet archetype William of Ockham
      4. High econ stress (Eng) 1308-1330
      5. High unrest 1303-1330 (Eng), high crime rate 1315-1330 (Eng)
      6. Bldg index 0 for 3 decades after 1300 vs. 0.2 for 3 decades before

1. 
   
   1. Hussite awakening
      
      1. Hussite movement (Lollard)
      2. Beginning of Moravian church (first protestants)
      3. Lollard uprising under Sir John Oldcastle
      4. Nomad archetype and mystic Joan of Arc rescues France from English dominion
      5. Central figure artist archetype Jan Hus
      6. High econ stress (Eng) 1392-1435
      7. High unrest 1411-20 (Eng+Fr)
      
      
   
   

I'm not so sure Joan of Arc would be a Nomad archetype--believing that you're God's instrument in driving the English out of France--and not only believing but going so far as to claim that you had an actual spiritual experience seems to indicate she had some kind of Prophet traits in her--even if the accepted culture would've seen it as acceptable. Perhaps she'd be the equivalent to a cusper--a Joneser extraordinar?

As for films, you rarely find films about periods prior to the Renaissance--although we're now trending in that direction IMO as more of actual Medieval history is to be found. There are of course some English exceptions--most notably from the 1960s and 1970s that should interest you. Lately the desire to create more of this kind of historical film making seems to be making a come back.

The Ceremony of Innocence (1975) - King Ethelred (the Unready) tries to maintain a devolving peace between his kingdom and the Danes (~1000), but finds he cannot keep the peace due to the overly zealous feelings of those who surround him (a story of an Artist archetype if e'er I saw one)

The Pillars of the Earth (2010) - a modern attempt to cover "average life" in an English town in the two reigns of Henry I - Stephen as a cathedral is being built

The Devil's Crown (1978) - covers the reign/life of Henry II as he asserts his claim to the English throne on to his death from 1151 - onwards

Becket (1964) - covers Henry II's tumultuous relationship with his friend, Thomas Becket

The Lion in Winter (1968) - set in 1183, about Henry II being pressured to choose between his sons as to his inheritor

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm not so sure Joan of Arc would be a Nomad archetype--believing that you're God's instrument in driving the English out of France--and not only believing but going so far as to claim that you had an actual spiritual experience seems to indicate she had some kind of Prophet traits in her--

I completely agree, I think she is a prophet archetype. I have her labeled as a Nomad archetype because she provisionally belongs to a Nomad generation. I don’t have actual generations at this time. What I have is a turning and if I subtract 3 years from that (the average spacing between gens and their corresponding turnings) I can get a generation. Now S&H have the awakening ending in 1435. McGuiness gives dates of 1415-1445. To make them fit I have to truncate the McGuiness turning to 1415-1435. But the previous High McGuiness has as 1378-1415, which seems overly long to me so I replaced the 1415 date with 1406, halfway between 1378 and 1435. This gives a Nomad gen over 1403-1432. For Joan to be in a Prophet gen she would have to have been 29 at her execution, but the records say she was very young and she gave her age as 19.

However a High beginning in 1378 would include the Peasant revolt and a whole host of similar revolts in France and Italy and Flanders. Not only that but the 1378 Ciompi was more of an early version of a proletariat revolution that was actually successful for a while. Record show that the authorities of the time were concerned about the number of revolts and their proximity in time and considered the idea that these radical ideas of class equality (recall that John Ball quote you cited) had spread (like terrorism) from Florence to the rest of Europe. Sort of like a 14^th century “domino theory”. They investigated and noted the presence of “Flemings” in Florence in 1378 and in England in 1381. Of course there are lots of Flemings and they traded all over and so the authorities concluded there was no conspiracy. My point is this story is strongly indicative that the Crisis zeitgeist extended past 1378, perhaps all the way to 1384, when the wave of violence ended. If I consider this, I re-label the Plague crisis as 1355-1385, which actually makes more sense generationally since the oldest Nomads (the gen in leadership for a 4T) in 1348 were only 46, which is quite young, whereas in 1355 they were 53, which fits in well with the mature adult phase of life as 52-77 with 26 year gens. With this alternate date the High starts in 1385 and splitting the difference between this date and 1435 gives the 2T start in 1410. Then if you look at the War of the Roses 4T you see the associated gen beginning in 1460, whereas the turnings begins in 1459. If the same thing happened for the previous 2T, then the Nomad gen associated with a 1410-35 2T could start as late as 1411, in which case Joan could be as young as 21 and be born in a Prophet gen. So she can definitely be considered as a cusper and we should use Joan = Prophet archetype as one more data point for tried to assess dates for the Hussite awakening.

King Ethelred (the Unready) tries to maintain a devolving peace between his kingdom and the Danes (~1000), but finds he cannot keep the peace due to the overly zealous feelings of those who surround him (a story of an Artist archetype if e'er I saw one)

Ethelred was born in 978, 18 years before the start of the 2T. So he probably would fall into a Prophet gen

Originally Posted by Chas'88

The Pillars of the Earth (2010) - a modern attempt to cover "average life" in an English town in the two reigns of Henry I - Stephen as a cathedral is being built

The Devil's Crown (1978) - covers the reign/life of Henry II as he asserts his claim to the English throne on to his death from 1151 - onwards

Becket (1964) - covers Henry II's tumultuous relationship with his friend, Thomas Becket

The Lion in Winter (1968) - set in 1183, about Henry II being pressured to choose between his sons as to his inheritor

~Chas'88

Have you seen these films and perhaps would be able to made an assessment? I cannot reliably assess archetypes other than perhaps heroes --I’m an engineer, it’s not in my skill set.
Or can you look at the stories about the real people (short biographies on wiki and elsewhere on the net) to make an educated guess?

Originally Posted by Mikebert

I completely agree, I think she is a prophet archetype. I have her labeled as a Nomad archetype because she provisionally belongs to a Nomad generation. I don’t have actual generations at this time. What I have is a turning and if I subtract 3 years from that (the average spacing between gens and their corresponding turnings) I can get a generation. Now S&H have the awakening ending in 1435. McGuiness gives dates of 1415-1445. To make them fit I have to truncate the McGuiness turning to 1415-1435. But the previous High McGuiness has as 1378-1415, which seems overly long to me so I replaced the 1415 date with 1406, halfway between 1378 and 1435. This gives a Nomad gen over 1403-1432. For Joan to be in a Prophet gen she would have to have been 29 at her execution, but the records say she was very young and she gave her age as 19.

However a High beginning in 1378 would include the Peasant revolt and a whole host of similar revolts in France and Italy and Flanders. Not only that but the 1378 Ciompi was more of an early version of a proletariat revolution that was actually successful for a while. Record show that the authorities of the time were concerned about the number of revolts and their proximity in time and considered the idea that these radical ideas of class equality (recall that John Ball quote you cited) had spread (like terrorism) from Florence to the rest of Europe. Sort of like a 14^th century “domino theory”. They investigated and noted the presence of “Flemings” in Florence in 1378 and in England in 1381. Of course there are lots of Flemings and they traded all over and so the authorities concluded there was no conspiracy. My point is this story is strongly indicative that the Crisis zeitgeist extended past 1378, perhaps all the way to 1384, when the wave of violence ended. If I consider this, I re-label the Plague crisis as 1355-1385, which actually makes more sense generationally since the oldest Nomads (the gen in leadership for a 4T) in 1348 were only 46, which is quite young, whereas in 1355 they were 53, which fits in well with the mature adult phase of life as 52-77 with 26 year gens. With this alternate date the High starts in 1385 and splitting the difference between this date and 1435 gives the 2T start in 1410. Then if you look at the War of the Roses 4T you see the associated gen beginning in 1460, whereas the turnings begins in 1459. If the same thing happened for the previous 2T, then the Nomad gen associated with a 1410-35 2T could start as late as 1411, in which case Joan could be as young as 21 and be born in a Prophet gen. So she can definitely be considered as a cusper and we should use Joan = Prophet archetype as one more data point for tried to assess dates for the Hussite awakening.

Glad we could discuss this. And also I was about to mention the 1459 start of the Wars of the Roses Crisis & 1460 beginning of the Humanists. Though, I don't know why when every other source places the start of the Wars of the Roses at 1455--well, I know why and can see their point but would like to talk with you about whether or not it actually is worth it: Love Day - March 24, 1458.

Ethelred was born in 978, 18 years before the start of the 2T. So he probably would fall into a Prophet gen

I thought he was born in 968 AD... *checks* He was. Was this a typo? He reigned England from 978, but his birth is put at circa 968. And the reports of him taking kingship place him as somewhere between the ages of 10 - 13, which give us: 965 - 968 as possible birth range, which makes him 28 - 31 at the start of the Awakening, and thus more likely to be an Artist. He seems very Artist in the story from what I can tell. He's always trying to accommodate other people and tries extremely hard to keep the peace, struggling back and forth on the issues.

I've seen all of them but The Pillars of the Earth--it's too new to find online for free--wait I could try... give me a few days and I'll get back to you on The Pillars of the Earth.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Mikebert

Have you seen these films and perhaps would be able to made an assessment? I cannot reliably assess archetypes other than perhaps heroes --I’m an engineer, it’s not in my skill set.
Or can you look at the stories about the real people (short biographies on wiki and elsewhere on the net) to make an educated guess?

Educated guess for the large part, though there are recognizable story patterns that I draw upon to help inform those guesses. For example, there's the common theme in stories about Artist protagonists that talk about feeling pulled in many directions at once and trying to accommodate all these directions and satisfy them all and typically finding that they fail at being able to do so.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Though, I don't know why when every other source places the start of the Wars of the Roses at 1455--well, I know why and can see their point but would like to talk with you about whether or not it actually is worth it: Love Day - March 24, 1458.

First let’s check the generations of the Yorkists as they had the beef with the Lancastrians. Richard PLANTAGENET, duke of York (b 1411), Richard NEVILLE, earl of Salisbury (b 1400), and Richard NEVILLE, earl of Warwick (b 1428) The elder Neville was a Prophet and the younger Neville a Nomad. York would be the same as Joan of Arc. This group being already in power would be raring to go in 1455. However where were their supporters?
I have economic stress and unrest beginning in the early 1460’s. The generational effect should kick in a few years after the oldest Nomads reach the leadership phase of life at age ~52 (=2 x 26 yr gen length). If Joan of Arc/York are Prophet/Nomad cuspers that would make the Nomads start in the 1410-12ish period, and the generational effect would kick in also in the early 1460’s. This would make a 1455 like 911, a “spark sufficient to ignite war” but not with the supporting structures of a proper generational constellation and stressed population.
On the other hand if the Nomad gen began earlier than 1410, say 1407 (i.e. 3 yrs before a 1410 start of the Hussite Awakening) this would put the constellation in 1459. If its earlier still, say my original 1403 date, this puts the constellation in 1455. With a constellation in 1455 and stress starting in ~1462 the two forces have maximum effect around 1458. With a 1459 constellation then around 1460.
You can see the recursive nature of this stuff. Looking in a 4T impacts how you look at the previous 2T because the generation in leadership for that 4T was born in the Nomad gen associated with the previous 2T.

I thought he was born in 968 AD... *checks* He was. Was this a typo?

Yes, I looked too quickly and misread the start of his reign as the birth. He is definitely in an Artist generation.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Educated guess for the large part, though there are recognizable story patterns that I draw upon to help inform those guesses. For example, there's the common theme in stories about Artist protagonists that talk about feeling pulled in many directions at once and trying to accommodate all these directions and satisfy them all and typically finding that they fail at being able to do so.

~Chas'88

So could you formulate some opinions on archetypes for other historical figures like you did for Ethelred? As you can see from the war of the Roses discussions archetypes help give some ideas on generational boundaries which gives another data point for turnings, particular those two turnings down the road when that generation comes to power. Back to the 13th cent I still have some of the auxiliary info (econ stress, unrests, the bldg. index) to help inform dating. For the times of Ethelred (Russian Awakening ca. 996-1024) and the subsequent crisis, none of this is available. It is particularly difficult for the 4T since there is no Awakening kind of stuff to give you a hand, just a mass of political events I already know cannot show turnings by inspection (else they would have been discovered long ago). And boy it is a mess, when you look at France and Italy at this time with all the varied political actors (or Germany a bit later when it has dozens of principalities). England is easier once you have a single Saxon state, partly because its island status insulates it a bit from continental politics.