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Thread: What Is Needed: A "Bi-Polar Compromise" - Page 4







Post#76 at 03-22-2013 12:31 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
He may have been both. The two are not mutually exclusive.
This is very true. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I was assuming that it was the definition of this: a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power. Versus a leader championing the cause of the common people.


"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#77 at 03-22-2013 12:51 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Where is our Hugo Chavez? Where is our revolution?

One of the main factors for the popularity of the Chávez Government and its landslide victory in this re-election results of October 2012, is the reduction of poverty, made possible because the government took back control of the national petroleum company PDVSA, and has used the abundant oil revenues, not for benefit of a small class of renters as previous governments had done, but to build needed infrastructure and invest in the social services that Venezuelans so sorely needed. During the last ten years, the government has increased social spending by 60.6%, a total of $772 billion.

What he accomplished:

Some of the most important available data on health care and public health are as following:

*infant mortality dropped from 25 per 1000 (1990) to only 13/1000 (2010);

*An outstanding 96% of the population has now access to clean water (one of the goals of the revolution);

*In 1998, there were 18 doctors per 10,000 inhabitants, currently there are 58, and the public health system has about 95,000 physicians;

*It took four decades for previous governments to build 5,081 clinics, but in just 13 years the Bolivarian government built 13,721 (a 169.6% increase);

*Barrio Adentro (i.e., primary care program with the help of more than 8,300 Cuban doctors) has approximately saved 1,4 million lives in 7,000 clinics and has given 500 million consultations;

*In 2011 alone, 67,000 Venezuelans received free high cost medicines for 139 pathologies conditions including cancer, hepatitis, osteoporosis, schizophrenia, and others; there are now 34 centres for addictions,

*In 6 years 19,840 homeless have been attended through a special program; and there are practically no children living on the streets.

*Venezuela now has the largest intensive care unit in the region.

*A network of public drugstores sell subsidized medicines in 127 stores with savings of 34-40%.

*51,000 people have been treated in Cuba for specialized eye treatment and the eye care program “Mision Milagro”; has restored sight to 1.5 million Venezuelans

Hugo Chavez’s victory had an impact around the world as he is recognized as having spearheaded radical change not only in his own country but in all Latin America where progressive governments have also been elected, thereby reshaping the global order. The victory was even more significant considering the enormous financial and strategic help that the USA agencies and allies gave to the opposition parties and media. Since 2002, Washington channeled $100 million to opposition groups in Venezuela and this election year alone, distributed US$ 40-50 million there. [xi] But the Venezuelan people disregarded the barrage of propaganda unleashed against the president by the media that is 95% privately owned and anti-Chavez.


http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/14/the-achievements-of-hugo-chavez/
Last edited by Deb C; 03-22-2013 at 12:59 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#78 at 03-22-2013 01:17 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Poverty and suffering in America. Many of my friends work or run food pantries. Every single one of them says that the problem of poverty and hunger is getting worse. They are seeing twice as many requests for food and utility assistance in the past couple of years.

Even our unemployment numbers are skewed. Those who quit looking for jobs because of exhausting any potential prospects, and those who took large pay cuts just to survive, are not included in the statistics.

As for the homeless, they are also increasing. The largest growing number of them are children.


Behind The Poverty Statistics: Real Lives, Real Pain


At a food pantry in a Chicago suburb, a 38-year-old mother of two breaks into tears.She and her husband have been out of work for nearly two years. Their house and car are gone. So is their foothold in the middle class and, at times, their self-esteem.

"It's like there is no way out," says Kris Fallon.

She is trapped like so many others, destitute in the midst of America's abundance. Last week, the Census Bureau released new figures showing that nearly one in six Americans lives in poverty – a record 46.2 million people. The poverty rate, pegged at 15.1 percent, is the highest of any major industrialized nation, and many experts believe it could get worse before it abates.

The numbers are daunting – but they also can seem abstract and numbing without names and faces.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_968494.html
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#79 at 03-22-2013 02:02 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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I have been participating in another forum, discussing kilts/kilting. There are two brand new threads-about members being laid off, and the trials of job hunting. And a bit of discussion of related problems, such as people having to live in their cars. And a moderator made a reference to the "Gilded Age." This is far from the web site's purpose, but even the moderators are discussing economic distress.







Post#80 at 03-22-2013 02:23 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I don't see Chavez as having been a demagogue, as much a brave leader who saw the immense suffering of the people and stepped up to the plate. I'm sure that the people he helped to get out of the slums, saw him much differently than how he has been almost demonized in this country.
As The Wonkette says, he may have been both. Years ago a Venezuelan politician vulgarly, but wisely and presciently, called the income from oil revenues as "la mierda del Diablo" -- the $#!+ of the Devil. He was right. Oil revenue would inflate the cost of living for the poor and enrich elites, much as it did in the oil sheikhdoms. Worse, it would tear apart many of the institutional relationships that made life tolerable and sustainable. Tradition has its virtues, one of which is that it can keep people from going crazy due to the disruption of honorable norms of life.

Oil revenue created a nation within a nation, an economy within an economy, one that demanded much of the rest of the country while giving back much less. Most of the people working in the oil sector were foreigners (especially Americans) who spent little in Venezuela and sent most back. Of much that foreigners spent in Venezuela, much of it was for less-than-honorable uses, so to speak.

To be a great leader of the people, one must first acknowledge the needs, pain and suffering of the people. Unlike what Chavez did for the people living in poverty, our country leaders hide the poor.
I'm not sure that Hugo Chavez did much for the poor. Venezuela was a nasty place to live before he became President, and remains a nasty place. Much of what he spent ended up in show projects and in subsidies. (It would make more sense to raise incomes than to supply people with underpriced foodstuffs, something that many of our political leaders would heed -- except that they want to take away food stamps while keeping wages low or even shrinking them). The comparison of Chavez may be to Juan Peron, like Chavez a very mixed bag of results.

Like you indicated, (American political leaders) make (the poor) out to be responsible for their dire situations. What a real leader does is work for the common good, not the corporate masters.
We have a political structure that has come to represent wealth and bureaucratic privilege far better than the People. It is easy to imagine America becoming "government by lobbyist", a system as unrepresentative and irresponsible as feudal aristocracy once the Hard Right gets complete control of the political order with the Presidency, majorities in both Houses of Congress, and of course the Supreme Court -- and a majority of State legislatures. I can assure you that if the Michigan State Legislature were to get a bill endorsing a Constitutional Amendment to change representation in Congress to one in which corporations would get formal representation in Congress, it would pass such a bill, just as the corporate-stooge state pols are told by out-of-state bagmen. This is in a State with two Democratic Senators and that has not voted for a Republican nominee for President after 1988.

We came close to that situation in 2010, and we stayed close to that in 2012. Mitt Romney seems an even more blatant endorsement of pure plutocracy than Reagan or either Bush. Dubya was a corrupt, substandard pol -- Warren G. Harding with a militaristic streak. Romney might be wise enough to force economic 'reforms' (like a national Right to Work for Starvation Wages law, abolition of the minimum wage, allowing compulsory and unpaid overtime to 'promote growth', giving employers the right to beat or incarcerate under-performing workers, a national sales tax as a substitute for the federal income tax, abolition of unemployment insurance and welfare, privatization of Medicare and Social Security so that they could be looted, sell offs of the public sector to profiteering monopolists) -- 'reform' does not always have a benign connotation.

Stooges for corporate elites are followers and not leaders. As I say of them, they might accept sultan-like indulgence and copious whiskey to dissolve their consciences... but there is a good reason for such institutions as churches and military academies inculcating the idea that economic indulgence is not the objective of life. The corporate academies known as MBA schools and corporate law firms teach that material indulgence is the definitive purpose of life.

Incidentally -- if Pope Francis is as sincere about the desire for economic justice as he first shows himself, I can't imagine anyone I would more like to see making a visit before a joint session of Congress. I'd love to see him call for Pat Toomey and Paul Ryan, among others, to heed the old Christian demand for economic justice at the expense of the class privilege that such pols stand for above all else.

Chavez did the opposite of what our government leaders do, he attempted to change the underlying system that disenfranchised the people . This is why he is portrayed by our country as something less than what he was.
Unfortunately part of his change was to make himself President of Venezuela for as long as he wished or until the Grim Reaper got him, whichever came first. Social justice is not a valid rationale for a dictatorship.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#81 at 03-22-2013 02:30 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
We were war-weary after Vietnam. Had no effect, the empire remained.
Yes, but we still had the Soviets to consider, and no other possible counter-weight anywhere. Now, it's China, but we're also getting irritated that we carry the entire load, and our slacker allies use that burden to their economic advantage - true or not.

I think the jury's still out on this. We like the chant that we're #1, but not the cost of making it true. If cuts phase-in in earnest, even faking it won't be possible.


Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert ...
I'm not sure at all. But what happens if they don't? How will they regain the upper hand on foreign policy? Suppose after Afghanistan there is no new war started by the Democrats. If they don't have a war then they can't fuck it up... As for Iran, response to any hawkish statement by the GOP by saying American doesn't need another Iraq. Anything the GOP say about it is simply equated with calling for invasion.

How do you square this with GOP enthusiasm for defense cuts?
The GOP isn't interested in starting or maintaining any wars, but they should want that money coming into their districts. If they decide it's more important to cut taxes and spending, than serve the miltary and the MIC, then a lot of very Red areas will start turning Purple and maybe even Blue. A shift like that will move Virginia solidly into Blue territory. It might make Texas Blue sooner than it would anyway.

Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert ...
As I said the party will have to restructure. Right now we don't have to do anything about the deficit, Cheney's Law still applies. Hence the GOP can pretend to be working toward all three without sacrificing the miltary. In ten years this won't be the case. Some combination of the following MUST happen: taxes go, up a lot, old people get much smaller checks and do without health care next month, the Fed prints a lot of money, the miltary gets evisercerated. It's physics.

Of these four, which is least unacceptable to the GOP?
They still believe they can have everything on their wish list by making the poor totaly desitute. Since they serve best when they serve wealth. The Fed money binge is holding interest rates near zero. The rich aren't unhappy with that or low taxes. The rest can go.

Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert ...
I don't see why they would need the American government to take any role at all.
In a decade or a bit longer the US will be physically incapable of acting muscularly, if the country is going to be run according to deeply-held Republican principles. For the US to act muscularly the GOP will have to give up one of these principles. Which one are you suggesting they will give up?[/QUOTE]
Here we disagree. The miltary has been a service provider to the corporate world for a long time, and the stakes are higher than ever today. They need the Navy everywhere all the time. They also need to know that the miltary can project power anywhere and anytime. Neither is cheap.

I don't see the miltary declining in assets that met those needs, but warfighting? Why would we want to do that?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#82 at 03-22-2013 02:32 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Where is our Hugo Chavez? Where is our revolution?

One of the main factors for the popularity of the Chávez Government and its landslide victory in this re-election results of October 2012, is the reduction of poverty, made possible because the government took back control of the national petroleum company PDVSA, and has used the abundant oil revenues, not for benefit of a small class of renters as previous governments had done, but to build needed infrastructure and invest in the social services that Venezuelans so sorely needed. During the last ten years, the government has increased social spending by 60.6%, a total of $772 billion.


That is 6.06% per year on a straight-line basis -- possible for an American government that has such a commitment. We can surely afford that than wars for profits and show projects.

What he accomplished:
Some of the most important available data on health care and public health are as following:

*infant mortality dropped from 25 per 1000 (1990) to only 13/1000 (2010);

*An outstanding 96% of the population has now access to clean water (one of the goals of the revolution);

*In 1998, there were 18 doctors per 10,000 inhabitants, currently there are 58, and the public health system has about 95,000 physicians;

*It took four decades for previous governments to build 5,081 clinics, but in just 13 years the Bolivarian government built 13,721 (a 169.6% increase);

*Barrio Adentro (i.e., primary care program with the help of more than 8,300 Cuban doctors) has approximately saved 1,4 million lives in 7,000 clinics and has given 500 million consultations;

*In 2011 alone, 67,000 Venezuelans received free high cost medicines for 139 pathologies conditions including cancer, hepatitis, osteoporosis, schizophrenia, and others; there are now 34 centres for addictions,

*In 6 years 19,840 homeless have been attended through a special program; and there are practically no children living on the streets.

*Venezuela now has the largest intensive care unit in the region.

*A network of public drugstores sell subsidized medicines in 127 stores with savings of 34-40%.

*51,000 people have been treated in Cuba for specialized eye treatment and the eye care program “Mision Milagro”; has restored sight to 1.5 million Venezuelans


All eminently achievable in a far-richer country if it gets leadership with conscience, especially in the House and most state legislatures where such is defeated on behalf of people who believe that no human suffering is excessive so long as it turns a profit.

Hugo Chavez’s victory had an impact around the world as he is recognized as having spearheaded radical change not only in his own country but in all Latin America where progressive governments have also been elected, thereby reshaping the global order. The victory was even more significant considering the enormous financial and strategic help that the USA agencies and allies gave to the opposition parties and media. Since 2002, Washington channeled $100 million to opposition groups in Venezuela and this election year alone, distributed US$ 40-50 million there. [xi] But the Venezuelan people disregarded the barrage of propaganda unleashed against the president by the media that is 95% privately owned and anti-Chavez.[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Georgia]
President Obama and moderate-to-liberal Democrats (there are practically no moderate Republicans) have the same corporate opposition to any effort to reform anything except as prescribed in right-wing think tanks and corporate boardrooms. Think also of GOP Pravda, a/k/a FoX "News".
Last edited by pbrower2a; 03-24-2013 at 10:56 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#83 at 03-24-2013 11:44 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Did anyone realize that poverty and hunger was so widespread in America?

American Winter


Since the beginning of the Great Recession, I’ve been waiting for a documentary to make the case that low-income people and the middle class are now in the same boat—that old distinctions people created to divide them are obsolete, with so many people living near poverty, or an illness, lost job, or disaster away from poverty.

A hundred and six million Americans, or more than one in three, now live below twice the poverty line—on less than $36,000 for a family of three, forced to make choices between basic necessities like food, housing, healthcare and education, and with little to no savings to help through tough times; wealth is increasingly concentrated, with the richest 1 percent now possessing
40 percent of the nation’s wealth. Certainly the numbers suggest a convergence of interests among the poor and non-rich.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/03/09-0
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#84 at 03-24-2013 01:51 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Something both sides of the aisle agree upon.


"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#85 at 03-24-2013 06:07 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Something both sides of the aisle agree upon.


Now imagine all the economists in Washington stranded on a desert island with a huge pile of these. They'd come off that island ten times richer in money, but starving, ragged, and in very poor shape.

However, there is another use for those things. It came to me while I was reading something about currency depreciation in the bathroom.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#86 at 03-24-2013 07:20 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Now imagine all the economists in Washington stranded on a desert island with a huge pile of these. They'd come off that island ten times richer in money, but starving, ragged, and in very poor shape.

However, there is another use for those things. It came to me while I was reading something about currency depreciation in the bathroom.
Are you sure it didn't come to you after you read a similar (but not the same) situation in The Grapes of Wrath? Or is that your bathroom reading material these days?

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 03-24-2013 at 07:48 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#87 at 03-24-2013 07:41 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Are you sure it didn't come to you after you read a similar (but the same) situation in The Grapes of Wrath? Or is that your bathroom reading material these days?

~Chas'88
Great minds run in parallel channels. Especially during a Fourth Turning.

No, I'd forgotten that about Grapes of Wrath. But however unkempt and unshaven those economists would be, they would certainly have the cleanest bottoms in the South Pacific. Though it's the North Atlantic I'd really wish on them.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#88 at 03-24-2013 07:49 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Great minds run in parallel channels. Especially during a Fourth Turning.

No, I'd forgotten that about Grapes of Wrath. But however unkempt and unshaven those economists would be, they would certainly have the cleanest bottoms in the South Pacific. Though it's the North Atlantic I'd really wish on them.
Right next to the Titanic...

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#89 at 03-24-2013 10:35 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Great minds run in parallel channels. Especially during a Fourth Turning.

No, I'd forgotten that about Grapes of Wrath. But however unkempt and unshaven those economists would be, they would certainly have the cleanest bottoms in the South Pacific. Though it's the North Atlantic I'd really wish on them.
What's wrong with the Azores?
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#90 at 03-24-2013 11:50 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
What's wrong with the Azores?
The North Atlantic is cold and nasty. So is Tierra del Fuego, but why would I wish them on poor old Latin America?
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#91 at 03-25-2013 04:39 AM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
The North Atlantic is cold and nasty. So is Tierra del Fuego, but why would I wish them on poor old Latin America?
Can we go with the Pacific Northwest? They have elephant seals, who apparently have a healthy sex drive, poor vision, and weigh a ton.







Post#92 at 03-25-2013 10:37 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Obama and Congress finally agree on a huge economy stimulating jobs program!!!

For Israel of course.

Can you imagine what our country could do with 70 billion dollars?

Obama Signs Security Bill, Gives Israel $70 Billion More

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70XFFEByPVA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#93 at 03-25-2013 01:55 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Obama and Congress finally agree on a huge economy stimulating jobs program!!!

For Israel of course.

Can you imagine what our country could do with 70 billion dollars?

Obama Signs Security Bill, Gives Israel $70 Billion More

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70XFFEByPVA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It seems our politicians care more about Israel than about America, doesn't it.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#94 at 03-25-2013 02:13 PM by Cynic Hero '86 [at Upstate New York joined Jul 2006 #posts 1,285]
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We don't need any democrat solutions any more than we need any republican ones. Only restorationism, with its goal of seeking higher goals and advancements would be sufficient to weather the crisis. What is restorationism? The promise of the restorationist proposal is the creation of not only a new and stronger america, but ultimately the creation of an entirely new kind of human. As I mention numerous times before america should increase its armed forces to over 15 million men and its nuclear arsenal back to cold war levels. I mentioned how the conquest and vassalization of latin america as well as the general pacification of the middle east may be neccessary. I also mentioned how the country should be reindustrialized and how the education system should be reformed. The latter is especially important to the future of america, education should be for the purposes of preparing children for adult life but also to inform them of the outside world, also however is the need to prepare the citizenry for the contingincy of needing to defend the country. For this reason I advocate that the general education of future generations be supervised by the military. Apart from traditional subjects, children would be taught emergency and survival skills as well as be encouraged to participate in rudimentary military drill and training. Among The traditional subjects history and literature are the ones that would be most altered under restorationism. History would have a greater focus on world history and military history than before. The teaching of literature would also be expanded to include much more literature from non-western cultures than before. Education would be worldly as well as informative as well as including practicality and the need for national pride.







Post#95 at 03-25-2013 03:48 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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The kind of restorationism we need, going beyond the usual bi-polar compromises, is something like this:

Much more teaching of relationships and respect for others; non-violent communication skills, stopping bullying and denigration of others. Teaching children to meditate and pray in a non-sectarian way, to offset the damage done by traditional education, which stuffs our brains with useless facts, teaches forcing and straining as approaches to life, and instills runaway, unconscious mind-chatter that ruins our lives and lowers our consciousness. End rather than restore hierarchical, authoritarian and military methods of education.

Much more community, student and teacher involvement in education. The opposite of a military approach, education should emphasize creativity, independent learning, cooperative learning with other students, involvement in community projects, critical thinking, and increasing emphasis on the arts.

A national commitment to restore our environment, ending pollution and climate change quickly, building new green ways to produce energy, and public transit.

Restoring the concept of creating cities and towns for the purpose of enhancing community and interaction, and awareness of beauty and love of Nature; like the beautiful cities programs of 100-120 years ago, and even more like cities in Europe, where they know what a city is and how it should be built. Just watch Rick Steves' Europe for inspiration.

The goal should be to phase out the military and its approach entirely. Though unilateral disarmament is not workable, the military should be used in a multi-lateral way to keep peace and stop genocide, preferably through the UN.

Revolutionary reforms to end gross inequality and restore the middle class. Economic democracy and worker ownership and control of companies. Fair trade instead of free trade and corporate globalization. Higher taxes on the wealthy and vices, and lower taxes on work. Regulation and proper zoning as needed to keep robber barons and gamblers from wrecking our economy and communities. Locally-based economies and citizen control to keep corporate, chain and big-box stores out.

Our health care system should be restored to preventive and holistic methods, beyond the biological model of disease alone. Make health care available through medicare for all, and stop messing with social security.

Restore our politics by overturning Citizens United and throwing out forever the doctrine that money is free speech. Update our elected-king government to a modern parliamentary system with proportional representation and ranked-choice voting to break the party duopoly. End gerrymandering and replace it with citizens commissions to draw legislative and electoral districts.

Spread and promote new age spirituality, with an emphasis on fostering our own experience of reality, beyond convention and authority. Restore our consciousness to its true and natural state, aware of bliss and wonder and our connection to all. Restore our ability to see visions, as my friend below recommends.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 03-25-2013 at 04:33 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#96 at 03-25-2013 05:02 PM by Cynic Hero '86 [at Upstate New York joined Jul 2006 #posts 1,285]
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The problem with applying more pacifisitic type ideologies is that as long as the nation-state remains the dominant means of organizing societies that new age model simply is not viable. Applying the new age model of social interaction requires the abolition of the nation-state as a prerequisite. Such an abolition seems unlikely for the forseeable future, indeed while such a course of action would result in the positive growth of a world society now freed from the near-war footing that the nation state entails, until such a breakthrough takes place, by far the safer course of action is to reorganize society around a meritocracy centered around the military which would serve as an equalizing force in society after it has been purged of corporate influences.
Last edited by Cynic Hero '86; 03-25-2013 at 05:06 PM.







Post#97 at 03-25-2013 05:37 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Cynic Hero '86 View Post
The problem with applying more pacifisitic type ideologies is that as long as the nation-state remains the dominant means of organizing societies that new age model simply is not viable. Applying the new age model of social interaction requires the abolition of the nation-state as a prerequisite. Such an abolition seems unlikely for the forseeable future, indeed while such a course of action would result in the positive growth of a world society now freed from the near-war footing that the nation state entails, until such a breakthrough takes place, by far the safer course of action is to reorganize society around a meritocracy centered around the military which would serve as an equalizing force in society after it has been purged of corporate influences.
I don't see abolition of the nation state as a prerequisite. It is still necessary to help organize the restorations I mentioned. Embedded within a global, multi-lateral security system to prevent aggressors, it can function without the drive for national power which is obsolete and is not what the people anywhere want (except perhaps in Red America, and Israel), just as states are embedded within our federal system. The war footing is no longer necessary as long as leaders like Bush are not elected.

People do need to be encouraged to improve their abilities. Purging corporate influences needs to go on, and that includes our gross inequality that discourages work and investment.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#98 at 03-26-2013 03:26 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
Can we go with the Pacific Northwest? They have elephant seals, who apparently have a healthy sex drive, poor vision, and weigh a ton.
...Elephant seals -- I certainly wouldn't trust them. Typical carnivore, except that it might be a bit clumsy on land. Think of Jabba the Hut. OK... my jest went too far. I'd rather visit the Azores than almost any other tropical island chain.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#99 at 03-26-2013 11:51 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
The kind of restorationism we need, going beyond the usual bi-polar compromises, is something like this:

Much more teaching of relationships and respect for others; non-violent communication skills, stopping bullying and denigration of others. Teaching children to meditate and pray in a non-sectarian way, to offset the damage done by traditional education, which stuffs our brains with useless facts, teaches forcing and straining as approaches to life, and instills runaway, unconscious mind-chatter that ruins our lives and lowers our consciousness. End rather than restore hierarchical, authoritarian and military methods of education.
Traditional? Much of the objectionable drift of education happened fairly recently -- in the 1960s, when undergrad education drifted from liberal arts to a watered-down grad school. The emphasis went away from philosophy and culture (including literature) that teach people how to think and that there is more to life than the unschooled delights. 18-year-olds who have grown up with electronic entertainments can no more know what the concept of an 'educated person' is than can those who grew up in pre-modern societies. People who know certain things -- significantly, that there is more to life than "sex&drugs&rock-n-roll" or even an advertiser-directed concept of the Good Life -- can be good leaders of at the least a narrow community.

Of course the use of K-12 education to churn out gigantic numbers of factory laborers prepared, if necessary, to become cannon fodder in wars for profit, is itself obsolete.

I concur on the pointlessness of 'fact-stuffing'. Being able to get the information is just as good. Being able to sift data is even more important. Much information is out there, but much intellectual fraud (extreme example: Holocaust denial) is out there, too.

Much more community, student and teacher involvement in education. The opposite of a military approach, education should emphasize creativity, independent learning, cooperative learning with other students, involvement in community projects, critical thinking, and increasing emphasis on the arts.
That of course depends upon the quality of teachers, and that assumes that the teachers fit the model of the 'educated person' -- which likely implies a return to the liberal-arts approach. Teachers will have to direct learning, and at times such can be extremely authoritarian. There is much dry stuff, typically spelling, and until we have appropriate reforms of the language (pronouncing English as it was before the Great Vowel Shift, so that "Wenzdy" is pronounced "Wed-ness-die", or spelling "Wenzdy" as spelled?) we have a mess. Kids need to learn the math tables. Teachers have to offer something richer than the pop culture, which of course is impossible unless they know something else. Pop culture may be more accessible than Goethe, but which can one learn from?

A national commitment to restore our environment, ending pollution and climate change quickly, building new green ways to produce energy, and public transit.
High taxes on consumption of energy and upon non-recycling would do the trick. But of course the great oil cartel would never put up with that.

Restoring the concept of creating cities and towns for the purpose of enhancing community and interaction, and awareness of beauty and love of Nature; like the beautiful cities programs of 100-120 years ago, and even more like cities in Europe, where they know what a city is and how it should be built. Just watch Rick Steves' Europe for inspiration.
The one good trend in education has been the promotion of travel. One cannot fully know a great city unless one has been there. Houston is not a great city even if it has a gigantic population. This, in contrast is a city with no plethora of angular glass-boxes connected by overcrowded freeways. That is the city in which Milos Forman staged the movie Amadeus. It has a dark history, to be sure, and the dark history of subordination to empires has ensured that it looks nothing like Houston.



The goal should be to phase out the military and its approach entirely. Though unilateral disarmament is not workable, the military should be used in a multi-lateral way to keep peace and stop genocide, preferably through the UN.
Critical thought and intellectual independence are just what we need to give people the means of debunking the hate speech offered free-of-charge with easy access. Islam-bashing is very similar in its content and methodology as the old-fashioned Jew-baiting -- but far more dangerous to any country that adopts it. Hitler had 'only' 11 million Jews to excoriate and (slightly more than half of them) to slaughter.

Revolutionary reforms to end gross inequality and restore the middle class. Economic democracy and worker ownership and control of companies. Fair trade instead of free trade and corporate globalization. Higher taxes on the wealthy and vices, and lower taxes on work. Regulation and proper zoning as needed to keep robber barons and gamblers from wrecking our economy and communities. Locally-based economies and citizen control to keep corporate, chain and big-box stores out.
The Millennial Generation, if at all like the GI Generation, will have little use for class privilege and destructive inequality that make life miserable for the vast majority of people. They will at the least subvert or evade entrenched economic elites. Giant corporations in which leadership came from a wide array of people could eventually satisfy the needs of most GI adults -- after WWII, creating some basis for the 1960-era musical How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying Of course that musical is now a sick joke. Success in American life now seems to depend upon being born into the Right Family, and such now creates polarizing economics and politics that together create disunity.

Our health care system should be restored to preventive and holistic methods, beyond the biological model of disease alone. Make health care available through medicare for all, and stop messing with social security.
Much bad health is the result of bad behaviors. Physicians should be telling people to stop smoking, drink sparsely or rarely if at all, give up pathological eating, get more exercise and become less sedentary, and not sleep with anything that moves... the disease model is of course relevant to people who are in medical trouble due to no fault of their own. Medicare for All would be less expensive -- but also less profitable. Remember well that to our entrenched elites, profit is more sacred than anything else.

Restore our politics by overturning Citizens United and throwing out forever the doctrine that money is free speech. Update our elected-king government to a modern parliamentary system with proportional representation and ranked-choice voting to break the party duopoly. End gerrymandering and replace it with citizens commissions to draw legislative and electoral districts.
Precisely. What giant corporations have gotten away with in advertising they expect to get away with in politics. The right to freedom of speech does not extend to the right to a captive audience. As for the Presidency -- it is unquestionably a great institution if the President is Lincoln, TR, FDR, Eisenhower, or Kennedy. It is a disaster with George Worthless Bush. In any event, gerrymandering has to go.

Spread and promote new age spirituality, with an emphasis on fostering our own experience of reality, beyond convention and authority. Restore our consciousness to its true and natural state, aware of bliss and wonder and our connection to all. Restore our ability to see visions, as my friend below recommends.
Maybe not. Powerful interests could co-opt New Age spirituality just as it could twist Jesus Christ into a spokesman for a corrupt, cruel economic and political order. Mystical visions have not always served benign causes -- just look at German mysticism about a century ago. It would be better if we 'channeled' Shakespeare, Cervantes, Voltaire, Tolstoy.... I am satisfied that Michelle Bachmann and Rick Santorum have 'their' visions, too.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#100 at 03-26-2013 09:34 PM by Cynic Hero '86 [at Upstate New York joined Jul 2006 #posts 1,285]
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When I wrote on how society would be organized in a restorationist america, there seems to have been a misconception that my proposed reforms would create generations of under-educated cannon fodder. No, the general gist of what the proposed finished product would be a society that values intelligence, expertise, and creative solutions to problems. As I mentioned earlier history and literature would be more extensively taught in schools in particular the teaching of non-western history and literature should be given more exposure. I have mentioned before the idea of the military as the social fulcrum and driver of social interaction in this new society. The military of course having been purged of corporate influences and corruption and remade into a equalizing force in society. The goal is basically the creation of a society of worldly highly knowledgable warrior-scholars. This society would be a meritocratic society in which the best and brightist would ascend to leadership positions based on merit. This new elite would rule as a caste of men and women who have deserved their right to rule. The general result would be in terms of social values and abilities the creation of a new kind of human. This meritocracy would be safeguarded by a western version of the chinese doctrine of the mandate of heaven. The state and the education system would be firmly secular, however politcally the state would reestablish links with traditional christianity. This traditional christianity would NOT be the "traditional" christians of today, who are firmly beholden to monied interests, but a reembracement of the concept of the sacrum-imperium in which our leadership would claim the spiritual mantle of rulership of the entire western world. This concept has not been advanced by a western nation since roughly 1650 ad. So basically I advocate not only a social reformation in which the corporate hold on society would be broken and a new equalizing force dominated by meritocratic principles, the establishment of these principles being supervised by the military but affecting all levels of society; but also a spiritual reformation in which the cumulative destruction of genuine spirituality over the last few centuries would be reversed. As I mentioned before there would also be reindustrialization of america and the rebuilding of our manufacturing capability. There would be the building of a new military machine and the rebuilding of nuclear and other defense arsenals back to and even surpassing cold war levels. This would be followed by the vassalization of latin america and the pacification of the middle east.
Last edited by Cynic Hero '86; 03-26-2013 at 10:07 PM.
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