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Thread: Cascade Phase of a Crisis - Page 2







Post#26 at 01-26-2004 04:01 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Market Domininat Majorities

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
I agree that economics is the underlying cause for many things. For
example, a lot of people think that the Civil War started because
Lincoln wanted to free the slaves. Actually, Lincoln had no
intention of freeing the slaves, and only did so under political
pressure two years after the Civil War began. I haven't read Amy
Chua's book, but I've read some reviews, and I have some
reservations about her primary thesis: That globalization, in
essence, causes wars. This is essentially a political conclusion
since, in fact, you can't stop globalization any more than you can
stop winter, and if you say that globalization causes wars then
you're just trying to find a politician to blame.
You might want to read World on Fire. There is more to it than blaming globalism.

I see the essential elements of Chua's World on Fire as a potential conflict between capitalism and democracy. Market dominant minorities exist. You cannot deny them. Remaining ignorant of their nature and influence will not make them vanish.

US policy is to export both capitalism and democracy. There is very good reason for doing so. Both systems are, to paraphrase Churchill, the worst systems ever developed, except for everything else that has been tried.

The two systems - capitalism and democracy - can create a stark division of power. A minority often gathers much of the wealth. The majority can elect the government. The resultant power struggle can be resolved in many ways. Saddam and many other tyrants slammed the door on democracy. In the Philippines, the wealthy have to hire private security, as the elected officials and police are often far more concerned with the interests of the native majority than the Chinese heritage economic elite. In the Balkans, and in Africa, the poor majority resorted to genocide and ethnic cleansing as a means to redistribute wealth, power, land, culture, etc... The conflict takes different shape in each country. Historical forces do not dictate an inevitable progression, though I'd bet on western style feedback systems in the very long run. Marx's view of class struggle was and remains absurdly simplistic. Amy's view reflects a far more complex modern reality.

I don't blame any one political group for all these very different troubles, but the concept of 'market dominant minority' allows one to see the common themes shared in the many diverse trouble spots. It provides a framework for understanding what is happening. It ties together the economic, ethnic, religious, territorial and military themes. Next time you research a new world trouble spot, look for rich elites, poor majorities, and struggles between them which likely include a long history with many overlapping elements. (Mutter. Mutter. Israel. Iran. Cheznia. Tibet. Somalia. The Congo. Bolivia. Mutter. Mutter.)

One 'solution' to a capitalist / democratic conflict between two forms of power, as practiced in the West, is using labor unions and the power of the majority through democracy to place limits on division of wealth. These limits must suffice such that no one feels it necessary to seize autocratic power or commit genocide, but cannot be so strong as to stifle economic growth. This is easier said than done. Maintaining this balance is one of the primary jobs of the US two party system. One can argue that even the United States doesn't hit the balance particularly well. Still, this is the valid part of Chua's criticism of US policy. In exporting democracy, we do not encourage the export of the results of years of conflict between labor and management, between rich and poor. The systems we tend to encourage tend towards laissez faire, which tend to benefit global corporate campaign contributors more than the people of the country being advised. There are ways to balance the needs of industry and people. As industry currently has more of a say in how our government runs foreign policy, the version of democracy and capitalism the US government encourages does exasperate foreign conflicts.

But I would not go so far as to blame US foreign policy on everything. Each and every one of the world's trouble spots is a local problem, often centuries in the making. Huntington's civilizations have been pushing populations back and forth across shifting borders forever. Often, the aggressor civilization finds itself in the 'market dominant minority' position, with political and economic dominance over the native majority.

With the Cold War over, these old troubles, long deferred, are going hot. While democracy and capitalism are all the rage, they create rage too. Cultures inexperienced in democracy get into trouble all on their own. How many Republics did France go through before they finally got it, ahem, "right"? (Sorta, almost, more or less, maybe.) I would expect democracy to fail a few times before it takes hold, but it does eventually take hold. The first few times around, the various world rulers don't need our help to get it wrong. Chua argues that the US could provide better advice and guidance. Still, the conflict between wealthy elites and poor majorities has to be fought one country at a time. Replacing Bush 43 with some grass roots globalist friend of labor would not make the world's problems go away. Such an individual would have to work hard to make much of a difference.

But ultimately, I think this mythical person will have to be found, and will have to do the hard work. Amy Chua's perspective may be the true one for perceiving the global crisis. (I will mention also Huntington's civilizations, Toffler's waves of civilization and of course Strauss and Howe's cycles as other perspectives I keep in mind. One shouldn't get addicted to any one perspective, but if you ignore one of them totally, one is schrod.)

She is young for the job of Gray Champion, but keep an eye too on Arundhati Roy of India to fill a Sam Adams / William Lloyd Garrison sort of radical instigator role. While Amy Chua is an academic writing from behind a desk at university, Arundhati Roy is marching in the streets organizing protests. I hardly think Roy has a perfect agenda, but she is definitely someone to keep an eye on if you think a global crisis likely on 'market dominant minority' based issues.

By the way, Arundhati's perspective echoes one of my own great fears. In every prior crisis, the power that benefits most from the status quo attempts to resist change and perpetuate injustice as traditional and proper. Such powers are traditionally overthrown by the Gray Champion and his progressive faction. Arundhati is focusing on US corporate culture as the great enemy, though she sees the people of the US as what the rest of the world might strive to become, rather than as the enemy. Still, she is nigh on as ticked off at her own government's corruption and inefficiency as our Military Industrial Complex.

With the Crisis coming, keep an eye on the radicals, as well as the spirals of violence.

The other side tangent is that any model accepted in a short form from a hostile reviewer is apt to be simplistic to wrong. If one reads Huntington wrong, one might get the impression that Islam will inevitably fight Christianity because that is what civilizations do. One misses much important data in Clash of Civilizations about the ethnic, political and military interactions of the late 20th Century. Similarly, a too enthusiastic interpretation of Toffler's waves will tell you that Industrial Civilization will surely trample Agricultural Civilization. Toffler can get enthusiatic about the future and change. If one gets married too deeply to S&H's cycles, one might believe crises occur inevitably and on schedule, and there is nothing one can do about it. One might get so tied up looking for common themes four score and seven years apart, that one doesn't stop to smell the gunpowder.

I find all these models useful as reflections of a complex reality. I'll acknowledge that a shallow knee jerk reading of any such model might be counter productive. Certainly, a hostile reviewer, or a reader addicted to his or her own world view, can find reason to ignore what an author is saying.

Which means one ends up rejecting a lot of useful information and structure.







Post#27 at 01-26-2004 11:54 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: Cascade

Quote Originally Posted by Sean Love
Ah, come on. Indulge me.
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Ok, here goes...
  • Terrorist attacks jars the nation. It unites the nation, if only for a moment... so now it's politics as usual, while the GOP break the midterm election jinx for first time in sixty years.

    Marc Lamb was right.
That's it, that's my summary of the last three years. The Left, radical or otherwise, who virtually snored all through the nineties -- and through all of Clinton's military adventures overseas -- now go apoplectic everytime Bush sneezes. What else is new, eh? :wink:
Well, I don't know if I necessarily consider myself now "indulged" but thank you for the effort! :wink:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#28 at 01-27-2004 12:48 AM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Violence and Depression...could an environmental debacle be part of a Cascade?

(~*~)







Post#29 at 01-27-2004 12:08 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Is the ecology part of the economy, or...

Quote Originally Posted by Tim Walker
Violence and Depression...could an environmental debacle be part of a Cascade?

(~*~)
It would have to be a big one. In an awakening or unraveling, tears might be shed for a species gone extinct, or a forest harvested. In a crisis, when it is us or them, I anticipate much more attention to us than nature.

If you are looking for nature's revenge, rather than an environmental debacle, keep an eye on AIDS. I remember a comment made during the Clinton years, "We might lose Africa." I've been commenting lately on 'market dominant minorities,' how class conflict overflows into ethnic, religious, territorial, military and political aspects. I have not been giving the ecological aspects enough emphasis. Modern farming methods require a smaller percentage of the population working the land, which pushes folk to the cities, where there are often insufficient jobs to go around. Modern farming methods increase food supply, and modern medicine increases population, but the number of people that can be supported per acre farming the land is going way down. The resulting shanty towns are not purely an ecological disaster, but they are disasters with strong ecological elements.

If not AIDS, there is the possibility of some other disease devastating humanity, uniting humankind in an effort to prevent similar tragedies. Most other natural disasters seem to generate aid efforts, often from otherwise hostile states.

Natural disasters might be part of the collapse, but crisis seems to be basically a human phenomenon. There are any number of states on the borders between civilizations, with stressed economies, where the cultures from the two civilizations have slid into a hostile 'market dominant minority' situation, where population increase (in part driven by improved medicine) highly stresses both ecology and economy. (Is the ecology part of the economy, or is the economy an extension of the ecology?) There is lots of room for a natural disaster to take an already borderline situation over the edge.

Kinda hard to predict what, where and when.







Post#30 at 01-27-2004 03:59 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
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Chua's "World On Fire"

Interesting post, Bob. It will take me a while to digest it and I am going to have to read the book before I can really discuss it. Otherwise, I am likely to feel ignorant. :wink:

Anyway, I did want to make a comment about your statement here:

One 'solution' to a capitalist / democratic conflict between two forms of power, as practiced in the West, is using labor unions and the power of the majority through democracy to place limits on division of wealth. These limits must suffice such that no one feels it necessary to seize autocratic power or commit genocide, but cannot be so strong as to stifle economic growth. This is easier said than done. Maintaining this balance is one of the primary jobs of the US two party system. One can argue that even the United States doesn't hit the balance particularly well. Still, this is the valid part of Chua's criticism of US policy. In exporting democracy, we do not encourage the export of the results of years of conflict between labor and management, between rich and poor. The systems we tend to encourage tend towards laissez faire, which tend to benefit global corporate campaign contributors more than the people of the country being advised
I think one problem with the kind of democracy that we export is that we cannot recreate the same situation in those emerging countries that we have at home. We really do not have large divisions between rich and poor in the same way that they exist in third world nations. (There are poor people here, but many of them would be considered rich by the standards of the world.) We also do not have the majority of our people eking out a painful existence with subsistance agriculture. These conditions were so even at the inception of the United States at the time of the revolution and the framing of our constitution.

I think that our mistake is that we do not realize that the starting conditions have a lot to do with the outcome. We therefore export the institutions of democracy in form but we do not realize that these forms are hollow if the starting conditions do not allow them to function as they do here.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#31 at 01-27-2004 04:33 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
I think one problem with the kind of democracy that we export is that we cannot recreate the same situation in those emerging countries that we have at home. We really do not have large divisions between rich and poor in the same way that they exist in third world nations. (There are poor people here, but many of them would be considered rich by the standards of the world.)
Funny, My (Boomers) Generation's rap (heard as a constant refrain all during college) on the Signers of the Declaration of Independence was that they were elite RICH, WHITE GUYS! (emphasis theirs) subverting the British Crown for their own selfish gains. In otherwords, they were champions of "freedom and liberty" to rob and pillage the poor folks, and keep their slaves to boot.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the continuing leftist spiel on "Bush's war for oil" that Chomsky and his friends at The Nation chant over and over again? :wink:







Post#32 at 01-27-2004 04:45 PM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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Re: Market Domininat Majorities

Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
How many Republics did France go through before they finally got it, ahem, "right"? (Sorta, almost, more or less, maybe.
Anywhere between three and five, depending on how one judges the success of the Third Republic, which lasted about 70 years, from one Crisis (a combination of the Franco-Prussian War, the Paris Commune, and the fall of Napoleon III's Empire) to the next (WWII). After all, it fell to a foreign power, not because of strictly internal causes.

One shouldn't get addicted to any one perspective, but if you ignore one of them totally, one is schrod.
Schrod is a perfectly good fish! :lol:
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#33 at 01-27-2004 05:57 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by oy
Funny, My (Boomers) Generation's rap (heard as a constant refrain all during college) on the Signers of the Declaration of Independence was that they were elite RICH, WHITE GUYS! (emphasis theirs) subverting the British Crown for their own selfish gains. In otherwords, they were champions of "freedom and liberty" to rob and pillage the poor folks, and keep their slaves to boot.

I started college in 1979 so my experience was different. Also, I was busy getting degrees in geology and biology and so did not have a lot of time for the scant political activity there was on my campus. (It was a land-grant college in the mid-west and those were mostly the Reagan years). I never heard the shpiel you describe.

However, yes, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were at the very least comfortably well off. I suspect that is why our revolution, which was a conservative revolution in a sense, was successful and avoided the Robespierran excesses of the French Revolt. This was my point. The beginning conditions for our form of republican democracy did not feature a wide gap between rich and poor and had little to do with any class conflict. The way of life that was enshrined in our Constitution was already established and the revolution was seen as a way of protecting the "rights of Englishmen."


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the continuing leftist spiel on "Bush's war for oil" that Chomsky and his friends at The Nation chant over and over again? :wink:
By "this" (emphasis mine) do you mean what I had to say or were you referring to your experience of the "Boomers Generation rap" that you discussed earlier? Or were you refering to Amy Chua's book?

In any case, I do not agree with Chomsky on much except that perhaps his universal grammar might be located in the left hemisphere of the human brain.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#34 at 01-27-2004 06:52 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
Quote Originally Posted by oy
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the continuing leftist spiel on "Bush's war for oil" that Chomsky and his friends at The Nation chant over and over again? :wink:
By "this" (emphasis mine) do you mean what I had to say or were you referring to your experience of the "Boomers Generation rap" that you discussed earlier? Or were you refering to Amy Chua's book?
"Bush's war for oil" is this mantra heard round the leftist world. The upshot of their argument is that Bush can't possibly be interested in what might benefit the Iraqis, and besides they can't comprehend democracy anyways: They're too backward.

Uh, huh, that's what the left would say about Simon Kenton and Daniel Boone, too.

Recently I was browsing in a Barnes and Noble, located in a very upscale neck-of-the-woods. I was kinda shocked to see the reurgence Chomsky is getting these days. His books were everywhere! There were so many of them prominately displayed that poor Sean Hannity's Let Freedom Ring, nor anyone else, didn't stand a chance of being noticed.

Ah, Bobos in Paradise... ain't it great! The Sandinista live! 8)







Post#35 at 01-28-2004 01:31 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by oy

Recently I was browsing in a Barnes and Noble, located in a very upscale neck-of-the-woods. I was kinda shocked to see the reurgence Chomsky is getting these days. His books were everywhere! There were so many of them prominately displayed that poor Sean Hannity's Let Freedom Ring, nor anyone else, didn't stand a chance of being noticed.

Ah, Bobos in Paradise... ain't it great! The Sandinista live! 8)
It's another example of the 'parallel intellectual worlds' the Red and Blue citizens are coming to inhabit. On the Blue side, Chomsky is not even considered fringe anymore, but Sean Hannity is regarded as a nut or a fraud at best. Reagan is regarded on the Blue side (at best) as a well-meaing but half-senile pawn.

On the Red side, Chomsky is a fringe academic with goofy ideas, and Reagan was a world-historical figure of note.







Post#36 at 01-28-2004 11:03 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
The upshot of their argument is that Bush can't possibly be interested in what might benefit the Iraqis
Please tell me you don't think that Bush cares about the Iraqis. He's a politician (as opposed to a statesman, for example). The extent to which any of them care about anything is how far it will help them in their quest to gain/hold power.

The "war for oil" theory (to which I do not subscribe, btw) is just an attempt to connect the dots of Bush's personal connections to the industry, industry's involvement in politics, and Bush's political success. It may not be correct, but at least it doesn't conceptually defy reality.

__________________

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." -- George Orwell







Post#37 at 01-28-2004 01:25 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
The upshot of their argument is that Bush can't possibly be interested in what might benefit the Iraqis
Please tell me you don't think that Bush cares about the Iraqis. He's a politician (as opposed to a statesman, for example). The extent to which any of them care about anything is how far it will help them in their quest to gain/hold power.

The "war for oil" theory (to which I do not subscribe, btw) is just an attempt to connect the dots of Bush's personal connections to the industry, industry's involvement in politics, and Bush's political success. It may not be correct, but at least it doesn't conceptually defy reality.
FWIW, I think Kevin Phillips is a lot closer to the truth with the argument that the world the Bushes inhabit is one of favor and counterfavor. The Bushes are successful because they have done many favors, and many are owed. By the same argument, many favors are granted to them by an ever increasing number of syncophants, thus generating an even larger number of counter favors by the Bushes.

I would guess that few if any favors originate or terminate with people you know, but you and yours are very likely to get shares of the bill.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#38 at 01-28-2004 01:56 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
It's another example of the 'parallel intellectual worlds' the Red and Blue citizens are coming to inhabit. On the Blue side, Chomsky is not even considered fringe anymore, but Sean Hannity is regarded as a nut or a fraud at best. Reagan is regarded on the Blue side (at best) as a well-meaing but half-senile pawn.

On the Red side, Chomsky is a fringe academic with goofy ideas, and Reagan was a world-historical figure of note.
Gosh, and where do I fit in? I must be some shade of purple because I still think Chomsky is fringe politics (I have reservations about certain aspects of his linguistics, too) and neither do I see Reagan as some kind of saint.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#39 at 01-28-2004 02:41 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
The upshot of their argument is that Bush can't possibly be interested in what might benefit the Iraqis
Please tell me you don't think that Bush cares about the Iraqis.
My bad. Only liberals "care," only women bleed.







Post#40 at 01-28-2004 02:42 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
On the Red side, Chomsky is a fringe academic with goofy ideas, and Reagan was a world-historical figure of note.
Gosh, and where do I fit in? I must be some shade of purple because I still think Chomsky is fringe politics (I have reservations about certain aspects of his linguistics, too) and neither do I see Reagan as some kind of saint.
You're a liberal woman?







Post#41 at 01-28-2004 02:44 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by oy
Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
The upshot of their argument is that Bush can't possibly be interested in what might benefit the Iraqis
Please tell me you don't think that Bush cares about the Iraqis.
My bad. Only liberals "care".
Doubtful. Unless, you're asserting that there are no "liberal" politicians -- a point on which I might agree. Those who choose the path of Power have given up the path of Humanity (which includes the capacity for empathy and concern for others). This is true regardless of the banner they choose to carry.







Post#42 at 01-28-2004 02:56 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77
Those who choose the path of Power have given up the path of Humanity... This is true regardless of the banner they choose to carry.
Oh, yeah... Stalin? FDR? Hitler? Bush? What's the difference?

It's not at all clear to me why someone with no inclination toward a theory of generational constellations creating cyclical patterns of public moods, would care to hang out at a website positing such a theory, Mr. Moroncelli? I would think this a frustrating sort of exercise in self-flagellation.







Post#43 at 01-28-2004 03:11 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by oy
Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
On the Red side, Chomsky is a fringe academic with goofy ideas, and Reagan was a world-historical figure of note.
Gosh, and where do I fit in? I must be some shade of purple because I still think Chomsky is fringe politics (I have reservations about certain aspects of his linguistics, too) and neither do I see Reagan as some kind of saint.
You're a liberal woman?

I really hate the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" anymore, because once they are thrown into the conversation, the interplay of ideas rapidly degenerates into name-calling.

As we have seen on this forum.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#44 at 01-28-2004 03:14 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Oh, yeah... Stalin? FDR? Hitler...
BINGBINGBINGBING! Godwin's Law! What do I win?

It's not at all clear to me why someone with no inclination toward a theory of generational constellations creating cyclical patterns of public moods
Whatever gave you the idea that I didn't incline that way? I've been among the most consistent adherents to your line of reasoning wrt phase-of-life being the driving force behind seasonal change (and its requisite conclusion that we-b-4-T). Or are you just lashing out in anger?

Mr. Moroncelli
For future reference, that is not among my preferred patronymic malaprops. In the future, try:

Macaroni
Marticheski
Marconi

and my personal favorite

Marked-in-Chili

thank you for your time. :wink:







Post#45 at 01-28-2004 03:42 PM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
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Re: Spiral of Violence

Dear Sean and Bob,

Quote Originally Posted by Sean Love
> That is not what Amy Chua is saying. She decidely DID NOT say
> that globalization in and of itself causes wars. That's like
> saying winter causes fatal hypothermia. Well, yes, it does, but
> only under certain circumstances, like when you go outside without
> your coat on or when you go swimming in Lake Erie in January
> without a wetsuit.
Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
> You might want to read World on Fire. There is more to it than
> blaming globalism.

> I see the essential elements of Chua's World on Fire as a
> potential conflict between capitalism and democracy. Market
> dominant minorities exist. You cannot deny them. Remaining
> ignorant of their nature and influence will not make them vanish.
OK, I defer to your superior knowledge of Amy Chua's book, since
you've read it and I haven't, but here's what I was reacting to:

Quote Originally Posted by amazon.com
> From Publishers Weekly

> A professor at Yale Law School, Chua eloquently fuses expert
> analysis with personal recollections to assert that globalization
> has created a volatile concoction of free markets and democracy
> that has incited economic devastation, ethnic hatred and genocidal
> violence throughout the developing world. Chua illustrates the
> disastrous consequences arising when an accumulation of wealth by
> "market dominant minorities" combines with an increase of
> political power by a disenfranchised majority. Chua refutes the
> "powerful assumption that markets and democracy go hand in hand"
> by citing specific examples of the turbulent conditions within
> countries such as Indonesia, Russia, Sierra Leone, Bolivia and in
> the Middle East. In Indonesia, Chua contends, market
> liberalization policies favoring wealthy Chinese elites instigated
> a vicious wave of anti-Chinese violence from the suppressed
> indigenous majority. Chua describes how "terrified Chinese shop
> owners huddled behind locked doors while screaming Muslim mobs
> smashed windows, looted shops and gang-raped over 150 women,
> almost all of them ethnic Chinese." Chua blames the West for
> promoting a version of capitalism and democracy that Westerners
> have never adopted themselves. Western capitalism wisely
> implemented redistributive mechanisms to offset potential ethnic
> hostilities, a practice that has not accompanied the political and
> economic transitions in the developing world. As a result, Chua
> explains, we will continue to witness violence and bloodshed
> within the developing nations struggling to adopt the free markets
> and democratic policies exported by the West. (On sale Dec. 24)

> Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.

> From Library Journal

> Globalization is not good for developing countries, insists Yale
> law professor Chua. It aggravates ethnic tensions by creating a
> small but abundantly wealthy new class and it's stimulating a new
> wave of anti-Americanism.

> Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.
So this sort of confirms what you were saying, but I got the definite
impression that she was saying, "Globalization is not good for
developing countries."

Quote Originally Posted by Sean Love
> What she is saying is that by pushing both de facto laizze-faire
> capitalism and raw democracy at the same time on second and third
> world countries we are severely aggravating pre-existing
> socio-economic problems -- specifically the one regarding
> market-dominate minorities.

> Furthermore she points out that this is a development that no
> first world country ever went through, and makes a very good case
> for it.
Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
> The two systems - capitalism and democracy - can create a stark
> division of power. A minority often gathers much of the wealth.
Now, here's where I start running into serious problems, on several
levels.

The implication of what you're writing is that we have some sort of
choice. "Oh," I infer from your remarks, "the problem isn't
globalization, capitalism and democracy. The problem is the
particular KIND of capitalism and democracy. If we were just a little
more clever, or just a little bit more (take your choice) liberal or
conservative, then we'd have IDEAL, WONDERFUL capitalism and democracy
with everyone living happily ever after."

Let's leave aside the fact that America has had its own growing pains
with capitalism and democracy, which is being discussed by others in
this thread. In particular, I would note that it led to America's
Civil War which killed almost 1% of the entire population.

First, I would point out that the kind of arguments you and Chua are
making are complaints without solutions. I hear a lot of complaints
with what we're trying to do in Iraq these days -- the Shi'ites want
instantaneous elections that they'll win, the Baathists want us to
just leave or they'll keep suicide-bombing us, Bush's opponents
complain that we're not using the UN enough -- but I don't hear
anything that will work, especially the UN.

Second, the stuff about the evils of so-called Chinese democracy are
laughable when you think of the Taiping Rebellion and Mao's legacy --
both of which starved or murdered tens of millions of people. If
you're going to complain about capitalism and democracy, then I'd
want to be shown at least one example of some alternative that
actually worked. In other words, don't tell me what's wrong -- give
me a credible example where it was done right.

Third, you can show mathematically that many other forms of
government are impossible, which is something I discussed in my book.
For example, why did all Communist countries get stuck in the 1950s
(including Cuba today)? Because a Communist systems requires a
bureaucracy that monitors some percentage (say, 1%) of all economic
transactions, but then the size of the bureaucracy grows
exponentially much faster than the population. The only way to
implement that kind of market control is to freeze all innovation,
which is exactly what happened in all Communist countries.

The conclusion is that the only possible market organization as
population grows is free markets. At most you can control only a
small and ever-shrinking portion of the marketplace.

I believe that with a little more work you could show mathematically
that there's no way to do nation building that doesn't create the
rich/poor inequality that you're talking about.

Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
> In the Balkans, and in Africa, the poor majority resorted to
> genocide and ethnic cleansing as a means to redistribute wealth,
> power, land, culture, etc... The conflict takes different shape in
> each country. Historical forces do not dictate an inevitable
> progression, though I'd bet on western style feedback systems in
> the very long run.
The ethnic cleansing that occurred in the 1990s in the Balkans and
Rwanda were secular crisis civil wars. There was no way to avoid
them. That's the whole point of 4T paradigm and this entire forum.

So this brings me to the real conclusion of my message that you're
responding to -- namely that bringing up these issues has no purpose
except to assign blame to some politician. This is always good clean
fun, and I don't begrudge you your fun in doing it, but it's not
entirely relevant to what I understand to be the point of this thread
-- the inevitable "cascade" of a crisis period.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#46 at 01-28-2004 03:42 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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01-28-2004, 03:42 PM #46
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77
For future reference, that is not among my preferred patronymic malaprops. In the future, try:

Macaroni
Marticheski
Marconi

and my personal favorite

Marked-in-Chili

thank you for your time. :wink:
I thot that spelling looked a bit off! Believe it or not, it wasn't an intentional slap (as it was the when I coined it many moons ago).

As far as invoking Godwin's Law and generational cycles go, you did not qualify your [none seeking] "Power" [care a wit about] "humanity" observation. I would suggest that they tend to care too much, in general (with few exceptions like rover Grover Cleveland). And even those like Cleveland actually display a great deal of care for humanity in their respect for conservative traditions.

But in 4Ts all this Powerful "caring" gets really wacky. But so do the governed, too.

Which makes FDR such a great man in retospect, and in comparison to those like Huey Long, who just as well might have defeated FDR had he lived.







Post#47 at 01-28-2004 03:45 PM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
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01-28-2004, 03:45 PM #47
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Re: Market Domininat Majorities

Dear Bob,

Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
> By the way, Arundhati's perspective echoes one of my own great
> fears. In every prior crisis, the power that benefits most from
> the status quo attempts to resist change and perpetuate injustice
> as traditional and proper. Such powers are traditionally
> overthrown by the Gray Champion and his progressive faction.
> Arundhati is focusing on US corporate culture as the great enemy,
> though she sees the people of the US as what the rest of the world
> might strive to become, rather than as the enemy. Still, she is
> nigh on as ticked off at her own government's corruption and
> inefficiency as our Military Industrial Complex.
It's hard to see the point you're making here. You say that the "the
power that benefits most from the status quo attempts to resist
change," but that has nothing to do with war, and why is it
remarkable? Where is this going? Aren't you simply saying that
everyone looks out for himself?

I've never heard of Arundhati, but relying again on good ol'
amazon.com, I find: "Roy also criticizes an American energy company
and the Indian government for allowing big business to make money
privatizing electricity in a country where hundreds of millions lack
any electricity."

Once again, what's the point except pure politics? Why would an
energy company invest in an electricity infrastructure if it wasn't
going to get a return on investment?

Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
> The other side tangent is that any model accepted in a short form
> from a hostile reviewer is apt to be simplistic to wrong. If one
> reads Huntington wrong, one might get the impression that Islam
> will inevitably fight Christianity because that is what
> civilizations do. One misses much data in Clash of Civilizations
> about the ethnic, political and military interactions of the late
> 20th Century. Similarly, a too enthusiastic interpretation of
> Toffler's waves will tell you that Industrial Civilization will
> surely trample Agricultural Civilization. Toffler can get
> enthusiatic about the future and change. If one gets married too
> deeply to S&H's cycles, on might believe crises occur inevitably
> on schedule, and there is nothing one can do about it. One might
> get so tied up looking for common themes four score and seven
> years apart, that one doesn't stop to smell the gunpowder.

> I find all these models useful as reflections of a complex
> reality. I'll acknowledge that a shallow knee jerk reading of any
> such model might be counter productive. Certainly, a hostile
> reviewer, or a reader addicted to his or her own world view, can
> find reason to ignore what an author is saying.

> Which means one ends up rejecting a lot of useful information and
> structure.
I find this really startling. Here you are saying that it's not true
that "crises occur inevitably on schedule, and there is nothing one
can do about it." Do you really mean that? What's this 4T forum all
about, anyway? The whole point of this forum is that crises DO occur
inevitably on schedule, and there's nothing one can do about it.

One region I keep trying to follow is the Mideast. There is no way
to avoid a massive regional war between the Israelis and
Palestinians. It's almost a mathematical certainty, and can be
avoided only if the sun explodes or something like that. We can't be
certain of the timing, but as I've said in other places, my guess is
that the disappearance of Yasser Arafat will signal the generational
change that will, either immediately or within a couple of years,
lead to this regional war. And then, following Huntington's
prescription, this will bring in identity groups on both sides --
America and the West on the side of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and
Egypt on the side of the Palestinians. Nuclear weapons will be used,
and Israel's continued existence is not guaranteed.

There's no way out of this, Bob, and Huntington gives the reasons -
especially the "youth bulge" among the Palestinians and other Muslim
populations internationally.

This is a perfect example of why 4T crises occur as a series of
surprises -- spiral of violence or ping-pong terrorism, or whatever.
How can you be in this forum and say what you're saying? Even though
the trend lines are starkly clear, even though we can map those trend
lines and see where they're going, even though there's plenty of
theory (in this case Huntington's) to support the interpretation of
the trend lines -- in spite of all that, when massive violence breaks
out in the Mideast it will be a shock to almost everyone. That's
because there's no one left who remembers the last period of massive
violence -- the late 40s, following the partitioning of Palestine.
Well, actually, Sharon and Arafat remember those days, and as long as
they're both around, compromises will be found. But once they're both
gone, then there'll be nothing left but shock and awe.

You know, when I joined this forum early last year, it was because I
thought there would be a group of people who have read "The Fourth
Turning," and actually believe what it's saying. It never ceases to
amaze me that I may be the only one in this forum who actually
believes what the Fourth Turning tells us -- or at least that's what
it seems to me most of the time.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#48 at 01-28-2004 03:51 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,501]
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01-28-2004, 03:51 PM #48
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
The upshot of their argument is that Bush can't possibly be interested in what might benefit the Iraqis...
You are claiming that what Bush wants in Iraq is nation building. Before the war I advanced the idea that a democratic Iraq could serve as an alternate focus for Islamic energy besides jihad. This was in addition to the primary goals of removing al Qaeda talking points. You rejected all three of my reasons in favor of a self-defense rationale--taking out terrorist "stones" (i.e. supporters of terrorists, especially those that might supply WMDs to them).

Today you now seem to think these "liberal" reasons I gave before the war are Bush's reasons for the war. You don't talk much about "self defense" reasons for the Iraq war (and possible future ones) such as preventing terrorists from obtaining real North Korean or Pakistani WMDs. Apparently, preventing the hypothetical Iraqi WMDs from falling into terrorist hands was sufficient, we don't have to worry about real WMDs possessed by terrorist-supporting countries.







Post#49 at 01-28-2004 03:52 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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01-28-2004, 03:52 PM #49
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Re: Chua's "World On Fire"

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I thot that spelling looked a bit off! Believe it or not, it wasn't an intentional slap
Not a problem. As usual, your prowess with the smilies has boinged my humor nerve and overcome my sensitivity reflex 8) .

I would suggest that they tend to care too much, in general (with few exceptions like rover Grover Cleveland). And even those like Cleveland actually display a great deal of care for humanity in their respect for conservative traditions.
Hence my distinction between "politician", who 'serves' for the sake of the office, and "statesman", who uses the prestige inherent in his character to further the cause of his fellow men. Contrast George Bush (or FDR, for that matter -- a more cynical liar in and out of office would be tough to find this side of "He Kept Us Out Of War") with Ben Franklin.

Any caring or considerate acts performed by a politician (as politician, of course; they are likely good to their own children from time to time, at least...) are purely incidental to the pursuit of his personal grail. His public utterances regarding his motivation, and even apparent consistency regarding those claims, are simply means to his own personal ends.

_______________

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country." --E. M. Forster







Post#50 at 01-28-2004 04:28 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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01-28-2004, 04:28 PM #50
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Re: Spiral of Violence

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
First, I would point out that the kind of arguments you and Chua are
making are complaints without solutions.
Ms. Chua has a whole final chapter more or less dedicated to solutions. It's been a while since a read it but I will try to summarize. Basically she said encouraging developing nations to open their markets and pursue market-oriented reforms is still a good idea. But force feeding radical, "big bang" solutions where no underlying economic infrastructure capable of handling global inflows and outflows of capital is yet developed is asking for trouble.

Furthermore, she suggests that promoting democracy is obviously a good idea. But imposing blatant majoritarian voting right off the bat is not good, most especially in conjunction with the radical laizze faire economic "reforms". She recommends steady, step-by-step reforms that inculcate protections for minorities (not unlike our Bill of Rights).

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
The conclusion is that the only possible market organization as population grows is free markets. At most you can control only a small and ever-shrinking portion of the marketplace.
To my understanding she is not recommending an alternative to modified free markets.

Perhaps Bob will do a better job at explaining her prescriptions. I too am annoyed by people who only b*tch and moan and don't offer alternatives (though their criticisms can often still be useful). However, I recommend that you read her book before you so smugly dismiss it.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
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