Originally Posted by Tussilago

Yeah, and your observations are perhaps further supported by the state of England in the 1820's and 30's, during which those obnoxious little Prophets apparently came of age and which to my limited understanding appear like a period of complete disregard for authority, for example the uninhibited mockery made of George IV. Do we possibly have a candidate 2T?

Oh definitely. Sometime in the very late 1830s/early 1840s there's a switch over in mood out of an Awakening. Queen Victoria I think is a good example of a British version of a Joneser of the time period as she's a Prophet personality with a Nomad-like relationship with her Artist mother. Between her and Albert--Albert was much more of a pure Prophet archetype. Of her children, her eldest two are like 1980s cohorts--the girl is more "Civic" than the boy Edward VII who is more "Nomad", so we have our "Nomad/Civic cuspers" being born circa early 1840s. If you have the time there's a good BBC documentary on the life of Edward VII, which I think you'll enjoy. I last saw it on YouTube actually. It has Annette Crosbie as Queen Victoria, Robert Hardy as Prince Albert, and Timothy West as Edward VII. That's one thing I like about the 1970s BBC, it is chock full of great history miniseries. Hell, even American programing in the 1970s has much the same--and the focus of such productions usually is in capturing the spirit of the times correctly, which is MUCH appreciated. Unlike come the mid-late 1980s when production values switch to making such things all gaudy and glamorous in a 3T manner--which is okay, but obvious attempts at overkill. To some extent there's still an attempt at emotional honesty--but done so in a more glamorized way... you know, it's comparing the 1978 mini-series "The Awakening Land" (great at capturing the post-Revolutionary War American Mid-West Frontier in the 1T and 2T) to the 1985 mini-series "North and South". Both are slightly melodramatic to fit the tastes of the melodrama consuming Silent Generation, but the production values have definitely changed. In the 1978 one you had "stars" but they were stars on the rise or "big TV stars". Come the 1985 one you have a full fledged "movie star studded cast".

Likewise, Sweden had its own marginal revolutionary/Napoleonic drama for instance, beginning with the unnecessary and mostly failed Russian War of 1788-90, the following assassination of Gustavus III in 1792 by a mix of disenchanted officers and aristocratic enlightenment enemies of absolute rule, the dangerous and somewhat inept rule by his anti-Revolution/anti-Napoleon son Charles IV Gustavus and the final catastrophe in the War of 1808-1809, when enabled by the pact with the French emperor, the Tzar took the opportunity to attack Sweden. The result was the loss of half the kingdom (Finland), the dethroning of the king and the enactment of the Montesquieu inspired Enlightenment constitution of 1809. That's how die Weltgeist reverberates throughout a civilization, even on its fringes.

Interesting, didn't know this. I'll leave Justin to make better formed arguments on Russia as he actually knows the populace.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed

Yeah, kind of like that collapse that happened in the West the last 3T, also known as WWI. Pure 3T, pretty much under the radar, I'd be surprised if you'd even heard of it.


Look, now you're just being silly. Turkey, Iran, and Russia all had political realignments that started around 1905 (Russo-Japanese War, Constitutional Revolution, Young Turk Revolution) concluded in the 1920s (USSR, Deposition of the Qajar dynasty by the Pahlavis, Founding of the Turkish Republic under Ataturk) that then came apart in the 80s and 90s. All of them are presently in the late end of stable, high growth periods and are starting to witness the early signs of youth protests. Like Justin said, if anything they fit the saeculum model even better than the west does, and trying to shove them into OUR timeline makes no sense at all.

Add Ireland to that list as well. It got knocked of the European time line by the only thing I think at this point which can cause an actual anomaly (unlike the make believe anomaly S&H assign in the theory to America): an environmental disaster. The Irish Potato Famine disrupted the Irish time line and put them a full turning ahead of the rest of the Anglo-American Saeculum.

Iran definitely. Here's their equivalent of A Doll's House IMO--which Tuss knows is a Norweigan late 1T/early 2T play that's equivalent wasn't found in our Saeculum until much later in the 2T with Kramer vs. Kramer.



~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Iran definitely. Here's their equivalent of A Doll's House IMO--which Tuss knows is a Norweigan late 1T/early 2T play that's equivalent wasn't found in our Saeculum until much later in the 2T with Kramer vs. Kramer.



~Chas'88

Indeed, but you know about my take on Kramer vs. Kramer, right?

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Oh definitely. Sometime in the very late 1830s/early 1840s there's a switch over in mood out of an Awakening. Queen Victoria I think is a good example of a British version of a Joneser of the time period as she's a Prophet personality with a Nomad-like relationship with her Artist mother. Between her and Albert--Albert was much more of a pure Prophet archetype. Of her children, her eldest two are like 1980s cohorts--the girl is more "Civic" than the boy Edward VII who is more "Nomad", so we have our "Nomad/Civic cuspers" being born circa early 1840s. If you have the time there's a good BBC documentary on the life of Edward VII, which I think you'll enjoy. I last saw it on YouTube actually. It has Annette Crosbie as Queen Victoria, Robert Hardy as Prince Albert, and Timothy West as Edward VII. That's one thing I like about the 1970s BBC, it is chock full of great history miniseries. Hell, even American programing in the 1970s has much the same--and the focus of such productions usually is in capturing the spirit of the times correctly, which is MUCH appreciated. Unlike come the mid-late 1980s when production values switch to making such things all gaudy and glamorous in a 3T manner--which is okay, but obvious attempts at overkill. To some extent there's still an attempt at emotional honesty--but done so in a more glamorized way... you know, it's comparing the 1978 mini-series "The Awakening Land" (great at capturing the post-Revolutionary War American Mid-West Frontier in the 1T and 2T) to the 1985 mini-series "North and South". Both are slightly melodramatic to fit the tastes of the melodrama consuming Silent Generation, but the production values have definitely changed. In the 1978 one you had "stars" but they were stars on the rise or "big TV stars". Come the 1985 one you have a full fledged "movie star studded cast".

North and South with Patrick Swayze et al. really was pretty bad with its Dynasty style intrigue in slow moving tempo. I already thought so when it aired on Swedish television ca 1986, and then I was always keen on the American Civil War. One small good thing I like to recall, however, was perhaps the minute attention put on weird uniforms worn by obscure CSA units.

Great you like historical made for TV productions from the 70's. Indeed, BBC made a lot of good stuff in that genre back then. One aspect of the 70's was in fact a re-awoken interest in history, not least the 1800's, that had been largely absent during the 60's. Here is another area to explore: I actually have a hunch there can be a lot of good French productions from roughly the same time period and into the 80's, but this has yet to be verified.
Sounds like a promising drama doc indeed. Maybe for tomorrow night.

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Indeed, but you know about my take on Kramer vs. Kramer, right?

I know your take, but I disagree with it.

~Chas'88