First, thanks for the response.

I'm going to edit your response to ask a few questions/make some comments.
(I just wanted you to know beforehand so you wouldn't get any sense that I
thought the whole thing doesn't have merit.)

Originally Posted by Chas'88

...
They are also messing up a central theme that can be found in the books, especially IMO in the Dornish plotline that I'm seeing. The character that we've seen on the show argue about getting vengeance (Ellaria), actually was the character in the books who made a beautiful speech about how vengeance earns you nothing--which is the overall point of the vengeance plotlines in the story, that you're most often not going to get vengeance, and it's a fruitless pursuit when you do chase after it. Ellaria's speech about how vengeance earns you nothing was actually quite moving when I read it, and I'm sad to see it go in place of the "wronged woman" cliche that she's been turned into. ...

That is really unfortunate. BTW, speaking of 'revenge', have you seen the adaptation for Ender's Game?
(I changed the word because I make a very specific distinction between 'vengeance' and 'revenge'.)

Originally Posted by Chas

But that doesn't make for good TV apparently.

Yeah, apparently not. Sucks.

Originally Posted by Chas

A kindergarten version of the theme, but yeah. Sorry, but the mishandling of the theme is something they've done time and again and it irritates me for a reason I'll mention below.

Huh. I thought Jon Snow's actions i/r/t to Mance
and that Janos Slynt dude were kinda interesting.

Originally Posted by Chas

... I didn't expect the last two books to be perfectly adapted--and I did expect a lot to be cut--but I'd thought they wouldn't make the worst mistake an adapter could make in adaptation, which is to contradict the theme of a story in adaptation. If you can't stay close to the story or characters as written, then at least stay close to its theme and greater ideas. ...

Yes, yes, yes.

Originally Posted by Chas

But the TV show goes out of its way to make all the noble characters super sympathetic rather than the much greyer characters they are in the books... which misses the larger point being made about how the Game of Thrones is pointless and petty.

Like you said, I guess they don't think it would make for good TV.

Originally Posted by Chas

Arya gets interesting, you'll enjoy her plot line I think. I won't spoil anything, but she's one of the reasons to keep watching IMO.

Yeah. I cheated and looked ahead a bit on her storyline.

Originally Posted by Chas

...
Jeyne Poole then disappears for an entire book, only to return at the end of Book 3 where she's obviously had some severe mental trauma as she's now convinced that she's Arya Stark. In Book 5 we realize just how bad the mental trauma goes and just what Littlefinger did to poor Jeyne. Jeyne had been sent to one of Littlefinger's brothels where she'd been forced to learn to be a prostitute quite unwillingly (I imagine the first time would have been considered rape), until the crown needed an "Arya Stark" to send north to Winterfell for Ramsay to marry. ...

Wow! That is really weird.

Originally Posted by Chas

Losing Jeyne's storyline though, sure makes Littlefinger seem all so nice and squeaky clean and fatherly though, doesn't he? :rollseyes: And it would have brought a downer to all those sexy scenes HBO likes to toss out, because they can't show prostitution in a negative light, now can they? :rollseyes:

Yeah, that would make him look absolutely messed-up. And, I think I might have said it before, but
I don't find anything about that show to be 'sexy'. In fact, it's like the opposite of sexy, IMO. But,
some of the violence has gotten pretty(and surprisingly!) realistic, IMO.

Originally Posted by Chas

So what you're losing is a lot of the moral and philosophical commentary which I think is what sets the series apart from your typical fantasy fare, but that's my ax to grind...

Yeah. My axe, as well. I'm seriously trying to hang-on with this show.
(I guess I'll just have to see what happens.)


Prince

PS:

Originally Posted by Chas

Sorry, but you wanted to know my opinions.

Damn straight! And keep 'em coming!
(if you feel so inclined, of course. )

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

First, thanks for the response.


Huh. I thought Jon Snow's actions i/r/t to Mance
and that Janos Slynt dude were kinda interesting.

That's because it was pretty much straight out of the book. Generally, when they stick close to the books, they nail it, when they deviate, it usually falls flat, but not always. I'm kind of interested in seeing where they go with this Sansa change. Jeyne Poole was a pretty prominent character in the books, but I only think she was in the show for one scene in the first episode, so most people don't even remember her. It's understandable why they replaced her with Sansa.

Come to think of it, if they did a direct translation of books four and five most of this season would be spent focusing on characters like Doran, Damphair, Victarian, Yara, Nimble Dick, Randall Tarley, Jeyne Poole, Arianne, Ariah Hotar, Darkstar, Griff, Young Griff, Duck, Illyrio, Obara, Kevan, Sarella, Tyene, Nymeria, Septon Maribald, Arys Oakheart, Victarion and Euron. Nonbookreaders probably have no clue who most of those characters are, and the main characters would take a back seat. This season probably wouldn't have been enough either. They would have needed 3 or 4 to get through it. GRRM may have even had enough time to finish the series. But the actors would have gotten so old by the time the show as done. And the show would have slowed to a crawl to accommodate all the simultaneous plots I doubt people would have been able to hold their interest.

Originally Posted by Gianthogweed

Come to think of it, if they did a direct translation of books four and five most of this season would be spent focusing on characters like Doran, Damphair, Victarian, Yara, Nimble Dick, Randall Tarley, Jeyne Poole, Arianne, Ariah Hotar, Darkstar, Griff, Young Griff, Duck, Illyrio, Obara, Kevan, Sarella, Tyene, Nymeria, Septon Maribald, Arys Oakheart, Victarion and Euron. Nonbookreaders probably have no clue who most of those characters are, and the main characters would take a back seat. This season probably wouldn't have been enough either. They would have needed 3 or 4 to get through it. GRRM may have even had enough time to finish the series. But the actors would have gotten so old by the time the show as done. And the show would have slowed to a crawl to accommodate all the simultaneous plots I doubt people would have been able to hold their interest.

Casting calls for Season 6 include someone who sounds like Euron Greyjoy, also someone who most definitely sounds like Randyll Tarly (and his wife and son). And it also looks like we might be getting Septon Meribald as well. I also think there was another casting call announced, but I can't remember at the moment.

Looks like they were delaying certain things.

And I should also note they're looking for a "Lead Actress" role (aka a role which is titled "Lead Actress"--not that the character will be a lead in the show, but is referred to as "lead actress" in the script as her character name) which sounds like they're going to do the self-parody opportunity GRRM wrote in (I figured they would as there's too much potential with that) that he released for the Arya sample chapter for TWOW (which they've already borrowed material from in back in Season 4, and it appears likely in Season 5 to some degree as well with what I'm betting will happen to Arya in the next episode).

One character I forgot to mention that was missed this season was Wyman Manderly. No Frey Pies .

I can't believe no-one's commented-on the final episodes from this season.

Now, no spoilers please, but ... How about that Night's Watch!
And, I'd sure hate to be on the other side of Jamie and Cersei!


Prince

PS: Anybody still watching this show?

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

PS: Anybody still watching this show?

Not now, since the season is over!

Actually, I haven't been indulging, but I'm with it enough to know that the season is over.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Not now, since the season is over!

<chuckle!> Ok. I'll accept that(eventhough I've got Verizon On-Demand. )

Originally Posted by Ms. Wonka

Actually, I haven't been indulging, but I'm with it enough to know that the season is over.

Well, if you ever watched it, you may wanna check it out; It's been interesting to say the least, IMO.


Prince

To be quite honest the finale was a bit lackluster. It jumped ahead to some unpublished material with regards to a specific character's arc and it ruined the motivations of other characters' arcs.

They should have stuck with the books with Dorne, because the plot that they invented for it sucks if that's all it was building up to. It's short-sighted and ridiculous TV writing that doesn't take into account how those events would actually play out in real life--like this series began with back in Season One.

I was thinking to myself this morning on my commute in to work that if I were writing the Dorne plotline, I wouldn't have cut Arianne Martell (Prince Doran's eldest child and daughter, his actual heir in the books; Trystane is the second son and last in line of Prince Doran's children, and still very much a child--as is Myrcella just a child... they like playing Cyvasse together but beyond that they're children not some lovesick puppies).

Okay, let me back up before I go on about why they should have stuck with a paired down/trimmed book plot and go for why I think the Dorne plot is shoddy in the TV show:

The Sandsnakes aren't interesting by themselves. The Sandsnakes have no real conflict, they're meant to be flavoring and garnish, not the main dish--and no more does this come across than here in the TV show. Sure they have a simple goal: vengeance, and simple characterization of being "badass fighting girls". But what are their characteristics beyond that? We get stubbornness and pride from Obara. Haughtiness from Nymeria. Pluck and Cunning from Tyene.

Surely they must think of other things besides vengeance? While the book versions are not much more deep as characters (nor were they never meant to be so), one got a sense that each had a life outside of this that had been "disturbed" so to speak. Tyene was to be a Septa, Obara was the main fighter of all the Sandsnakes and the one who really took it seriously as a choice in life, Nymeria had the political mind and a way with charming others--keeping in touch with her Volantene noble mother. While each were skilled with a weapon, it wasn't their sole characterization. They had professions and lives that each had disturbed by the death of their father.

I can understand cutting things for the sake of time or money. But how much would it have cost them to have Tyene show up dressed as a Septa and when she vows to follow her mother she throws off her garments and says that the Mother can take her mercy, but she wants justice?

Or instead of the inside joke that the writers wrote in with the hand slapping game (the tv show writers played that slapping game while drunk at Season One's premier's after party and hurt themselves... so the other writers thought they might be funny by referencing it in an otherwise throwaway scene of the Sandsnakes in prison). If they have time for silly inside jokes, they have time to write better character scenes. How much would have been for Nymeria to have received a letter from her mother in Volantis? We saw Volantis this season--the viewers would have understood where it was in relation to Dorne, and it would have been nice to have seen a greater development on Volantis than just a "here's the long bridge... they have red priestesses, slaves, and ". Have her explain the politics of Volantis to her sisters who question why she keeps track of such things halfway across the world--but Nymeria mentions that the Maegyrs or Tiger faction has recently supplanted the Elephant faction. Nymeria explains that the Maegyrs (whom viewers should recognize as Talisa was Maegyr) are the war faction (while the Elephants are the trade faction), which means Volantis is preparing for war with someone, or for someone. This could have touched upon Dany's plot line had they chosen to go with that.

Obara meanwhile, I wouldn't have hired a good actor for, I would have hired a stunt woman who is quite experienced and capable with a spear and do a little acting on the side. She should be knocking our socks off with her skill in battle. The strong silent typing would have worked for this character if the stunt woman wasn't that skilled with acting--just looking and glowering, until forced to talk in the cell later.

There, I just fleshed out the three characters to the point where they have more to them than just vengeance. If we're going to invest in these characters, care about them, etc. with such a short introduction, it would be best to try and flesh them out as much as they are able before they take action, and it doesn't take too much to be honest.


They want to keep Ellaria the one rooting for vengeance? Fine. I can roll with that. Have her come not just to Doran, but then go to each of these three Sandsnakes and have them react to the news. Starting in media res only works if after you've started in the middle you have the luxury to "jump back" so to speak through internal dialogue.

So, in episode two, have Ellaria come across Tyene as she's in the Sept and essentially pull her out of it. Showing Ellaria pulling Tyene out would show the kind of relationship Ellaria would have with Tyene, that she thinks as her mother that she can have her do what she wants (that's a change from the original book relationship the showmakers made, but we can keep it). End that scene with Tyene agreeing to take off the Septa's habit for justice for her father.

Then have Ellaria speak with Obara--whom the two should have a slightly awkward relationship for contrast the ease with which Ellaria and Tyene had as they marched out of the Sept, and end it with Tyene throwing off the Septa's habit. They approach her in the practice yard as she's sharpening her spear. When the awkwardness threatens for Ellaria to back out, Tyene could then intercede between her mother and half-sister and plead. Obara could then pull out her "my father made me choose, tears or a spear which would be my weapon" speech to show how she contrasts with Tyene (who tried to use tears to win her case). Obara says she won't do it for justice, but vengeance--to which we see Ellaria smile.

The last one should be Nymeria, who for differences' sake we can have associating with Myrcella and Trystane. We could see Nymeria talking about all the political implications of the possibilities for small council she'd appoint (and why are so many positions being left vacant), while Myrcella takes slight offense that anyone could step into her grandfather's shoes as hand of the king--because Myrcella's grandfather just died--I mean, she hardly knew the man, but she should be affected by it to some degree--worrying about her mother if nothing else, and conflicted that her beloved uncle Tyrion (whom we know is beloved to her from Season Two) killed him. Trystane defends Myrcella's opinion that Tywin Lannister was indeed quite the man whose shoes will not be filled so easily. We see Nymeria getting rather perturbed about this (as all her life she remembers Tywin as the man who murdered her cousins), as she's not sorry that Tywin Lannister died. She gives Trystane a glare and walks off. Trystane and Myrcella can then commence in lovey dovey dialogue with him trying to cheer Myrcella up and we see him succeeding, which would speak to their character relationship without being trite about it. Tyene approaches Nymeria as she's stalking off and pulls her aside to where she, Obara and Ellaria all are, and Ellaria sells her idea of vengeance to Nymeria, who for a moment pauses--but then sees Trystane and Myrcella laughing and then kissing from afar before saying she'll do it.

Sure, it's more set up, but again, if we're going to care about what these characters do this season, you have to establish some kind of bond with them and your audience. The TV show writers did this for Oberyn when they had him and Tyrion discuss in episode one and meet in Littlefinger's brothel. I can't see why they'd fail to do the same with his daughters.

From there you can have the assassination plot continue mostly as written. Perhaps add in one scene where they all disagree on how to kill Myrcella, before settling on abducting her.

And when abducting her, don't just come in all dressed like assassins ready for a fight. Use the advantage that you're allowed to be there to your advantage. Have Nymeria approach Myrcella and ask to speak to her in private, pretending to apologize for what she said about her family--have her turn on Myrcella that she can't help it if she's from a family of dirty backstabbers, we can't choose our family. Myrcella doesn't respond well to this, as can be expected and tries to leave, but now Tyene appears with her daggers, and says that they're going to be leaving the Water Gardens. The two then walk past the guards, who Obara has just finished taking out as Tyene and Nymeria approach. All the while the Sandsnakes can be going on about what Tywin did to their aunt and her children in addition to how their father died. There could even be a plea from Myrcella that she wasn't even born then, and that she was in Dorne when Oberyn died.

Outside they have horses waiting with Ellaria, who's prepared them.

If you still want to have the ridiculous coincidence meetup between Jaime & Bronn and the Sandsnake plot, now's the time to have it as they approach the Water Gardens. Instead of having Jaime & Bronn sneak into the palace inexplicably easily. Have the confrontation take place just outside of the palace.

They have a bit of a brawl outside the palace (therefore they can have as much practice time as they need and not worry about damaging the palace they were shooting in, and can shoot it whenever), which is broken up when Trystane appears with Aero Hotah and the guards. Trystane, if they're so bold, can go immediately to rescuing Myrcella and making sure she's all right while Aero Hotah takes care of the Sandsnakes.

Then you can have the season play out with the Sandsnakes in their cell, Bronn still injured by the poison, which gives Tyene an idea. Still have everything else play out if you want it so badly, but now we have context, characterization, and a better fight scene to help support the floppy resolution.

It would still be a less than great plot, but it would be a better version of the less than great plot.

I'll have more thoughts later. Including what I would have actually done with Dorne (if I weren't limited to the choices that they had already made).

~Chas'88

All right. How would I have personally dealt with Dorne? I'd start my changes back in Season 4. In Season 4 I would have had Arianne (the cut daughter and heir to Prince Doran) attend Joffrey's wedding along with Oberyn. This could have afforded opportunities to introduce us to the Dornish law of absolute primogenitor in terms of succession. Arianne could attend the wedding instead of her father. Oberyn can still be introduced in the same manner in the brothel house.

What would Arianne's plot be in Season 4? Well, I'd take some of her backstory from the books and put it on screen. In Arianne's backstory she had a tryst with Daemon Sand, Oberyn's squire. Oberyn's squire is present in the TV show but he is non-speaking and only seen once or twice. I'd have them planning on getting married while they are away from her father in Dorne--however Uncle Oberyn catches them and says no. She'd argue with him over the fact that he's with Ellaria and no one cares. He'd explain it is one thing to take a paramour and a lover who's a bastard, but it is another thing entirely to marry one as the future Princess of Dorne. She sees sense, which causes Daemon to be heartbroken and sullen.

Arianne would also interact with Margaery--establishing that House Tyrell are traditional rivals of the Martells, and that marriage to the Lannisters is the two Martell "enemies" intermarrying. We could also get a scene of Arianne interacting with Sansa at the wedding just to see what that might be like and help further establish characters--perhaps mention and drop hints about Jon Snow appearing in Dorne. "Curious thing that your father rode out of Dorne with a babe and a dead sister", adding in some extra foreshadowing that isn't so heavy-handed and perhaps muddy the water a bit by dropping Ashara Dayne's name as a nod to book readers as a rumored paramour of honorable Ned Stark--which Sansa hasn't heard about because her father never told anyone about Jon's mother. Tyrion "saves" Sansa from having to continue to chat with Arianne, while Sansa actually found the conversation intriguing and a nice break from the rest of the event.

After the wedding, Arianne's marriage to Daemon Sand subplot takes place and gives Oberyn something to do until Tyrion needs a champion. Cersei could have a scene with Arianne--Arianne comes to give her "condolences" to Cersei and is there when Cersei approaches her new champion, Ser Gregor. After Oberyn declares his intention to fight the Mountain, we could have one scene where Arianne questions Oberyn, who gives a little speech about vengeance to Arianne.

When Oberyn dies, Arianne and Daemon have a scene where they try to console Ellaria who is distraught at Oberyn's death. Arianne then declares her intent to get vengeance on the Lannisters in another way. "If we cannot fight them alone, then we must use other crafts to have our vengeance." End on that note.

They're mentioned leaving the capital in the last episode in the Cersei-Tywin speech, with Cersei upset that he just "let them leave", when they could have kept Arianne for Myrcella. Tywin scolds Cersei with "do you want to start another war after we've just finished the last one?" or something along those lines. He placates her by mentioning that he has "eyes and ears in Dorne".

Season Five, Arianne is back in Dorne and challenging her father like Ellaria does in the show, only it's just for plain war and nothing else. Arianne still tries the "Queenmaker plot" where she plans on crowning Myrcella (as wedded by Trystane) as Queen, according to Dornish law--which would say that Myrcella would come before Tommen, rather than Andal law, where Myrcella would come after both her brothers. You can still keep an older Myrcella and older Trystane who are madly in love if you want. Arianne plans on crowning Myrcella and gathering the support of Dorne as a coup to her father, so that Arianne would rule in Dorne, and makes a deal with her brother that he and Myrcella would rule in King's Landing. Allusions to Doran having given more attention to Trystane in matters of state than he should can pop up here, with Arianne's fears that her father might try and supplant her as his heir. She recruits a reluctant Ser Daemon Sand to assist her along with Obara Sand and Gerold Dayne (who can be toned down from the books--as he's a laughable character that George thought would be neat on the level of Oberyn, only to find out that everyone only saw Gerold as a laughable buffoon, so toning him down could be done. Daemon could express his doubts as to Gerold Dayne "he's not even from the main branch of the family, he won't help your case, and neither will two bastards", but Arianne insists. Daemon goes along with it--we get some unresolved sexual tension from the two and a bit of bickering, but Daemon goes along with what Arianne has planned--this builds off of the Arianne-Daemon relationship we saw in Season 4, establishing that though they may be estranged, they are still attracted to each other and Daemon cares enough for Arianne to do this for her. Arianne attempts to sneak away with Myrcella like in the books, only to be caught by Aero Hotah, with Gerold killing Myrcella in the confusion (a change from the books, but if this season was just going to kill Myrcella anyway, better to do that). In the kertuffle Ser Daemon is badly wounded, while Obara holds her own with Gerold before he flees. Arianne is distraught over how her plan has ended and pleads with Daemon not to die.

Arianne is imprisoned by her own father, stuck with Obara. Arianne tries to get Obara to speak, but fails. When she's taken before her father, she asks about Daemon. She's told he is badly scarred, but he'll live--but Princess Myrcella is dead. Arianne is forced to explain herself and explain what happened. Obara is tasked with proving herself loyal to Doran and sent to find and bring back Gerold. When she's dismissed, Doran and Arianne have a father/daughter chat--as it was in the books. It's one of the most powerful scenes in the entire Dornish plot, and Arianne can learn that it was House Martell's plan to support a Targaryen restoration (as in the books). The original plan was to marry Arianne to Viserys, only he died. Now Trystane is to marry Daenerys (since the TV show would likely cut Quentyn and use Trystane in his place with an aged up Trystane in that regard). Trystane can be distraught, saying he loved Myrcella and that he'll never marry Daenerys and he wants no part in any of this vengeance seeking. Arianne can have a character moment where she argues for her father's POV of needing to do something, for the Lannisters won't just accept that Ser Gerold be killed but that Dorne is punished. Trystane is now in rebellion against his father, and locked in his rooms. Doran assures Arianne that Trystane will come around, and that if he doesn't, Arianne will journey to Queen Daenerys on his behalf.

We finish out the Dorne scenes by having a tender moment between Arianne and Daemon where she apologizes to him and points out that he saw the flaws in her plan but still went ahead with it. He responds that he still loves her, and they make up. HBO being HBO might have them then sleep together, but I wouldn't. It'd be a nice contrast to see what was originally simple sexual attraction turn into a more chaste love.

Arianne will journey to Mereen between Season 5 and Season 6, arriving sometime in early Season 6 (episode 2 or 3 perhaps?). There Arianne would finish out Quentyn's role by treating with Daenerys on behalf of her brother Trystane, only to find Daenerys missing and Tyrion there, and continue with Season 6 material.

And that's roughly what I would have done with Dorne.

~Chas'88

ETA: As for Sansa's plot line... well, I'll get to that one next.

Since the publication of The World of Ice and Fire, and a greater acquaintance with the history of Westeros, I've come up with an analysis of Westerosi turnings, based on the kind of wars they've waged:


Wars can occur at any point in a Saeculum, but they tend to be fought for different reasons and have different flavors:

1T - Reaffirming the Established Social Order already established
2T - Controversial with lasting repercussions if society is divided over the subject; A "Merry Romp" if society has other issues it's concerned over
3T - Frivolous Reasons with Superficial Changes failing to address any serious concerns or it is used as a sort of "punishment", often ends "new face, same old system" or making things worse... essentially "Inconclusive"
4T - Establishing a New Social Order through "Total Warfare"


Using the above and the lists of wars & rebellions we've gotten from TWOIAF... I've been able to sketch out a basic Saeculum for Westeros:

First Blackfyre Rebellion - 2T
Second Blackfyre Rebellion - 3T
Third Blackfyre Rebellion - 3T
Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion - 4T
War of the Ninepenny Kings - 1T
Robert's Rebellion - 3T
Greyjoy's Rebellion - 3T
War of the Five Kings - 4T
Second Long Night - 4T

Using the above...

174 - 196 = Dornish Awakening; from the last attempt to invade Dorne failing, to the inclusion of Dorne and the emergence of issues over the inclusion of the Dornish into Westeros and their influence on Westerosi culture and the court which leads up to the confrontation of the pro-Dornish (Targaryens) and the anti-Dornish (Blackfyre) factions


197 - 221 = Sickness Unraveling; Simmering tensions between the pro and anti Dornish factions have settled into whether or not they're pro or anti Blackfyre; the Great Spring Sickness occurs; things grow constantly "worse" under Aerys' rule as people feel that Bloodraven has seized power through dark means


222 - 241 = Dragonless Crisis; A period of upheaval when multiple rebellions occur, including the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion; reform and a new system is attempted to be instituted by Aegon V, to the dissatisfaction of his lords, betrothals meant to curry favor with the rest of the Westerosi lords are broken one by one. Rebellions follow after each broken betrothal, but House Targaryen manages to survive and come to an agreement which secures House Targaryen's position. Any real danger of supplanting House Targaryen is put to an end with Bittersteel's death (241). The opportunity for reform passes and Westeros enters the 1T with a missed opportunity (sometimes this happens).


242 - 261 = Austere Recovery; An unremarkable period, a few minor rebellions occur (The Rebellion of the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig for instance), but nothing that truly challenges the rule of House Targaryen, the Targaryen status quo is reaffirmed by the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and Westeros enters a 2T with a promising young King (Aerys II) who seems to have "big ideas" for Westeros.


262 - 281 = Aeryan Awakening; the old "stuffy" conservatives that had caused a problem during the previous Crisis and had kept the High "austere" lose favor and are instead replaced with younger men who begin the period united as they come off the War of the Ninepenny Kings; one gets the sense early on that there was a period of reforms "long overdue" and that the period begins optimistically and euphorically (as most 1T to 2T crossovers begin) but soon the "big ideas" of Aerys begin to go nowhere or lay dormant, and the relationship between King Aerys and Tywin begins to fracture the "unity" and the Southron ambitions of Rickard Stark come into play increasingly in response to Aerys; soon the rift begins to affect other things, such as Aerys choosing to handle the defiance of Duskendale as he does; the period ends when Tywin resigns as Hand and the rift has been "settled". A very muted Awakening as the Prophets gained power early on and they had to make up lost time for a 4T squandered, so to speak--because of this, social unrest is much lower than one would expect and mostly is behind the scenes because the Prophets ascended into power rather early. Had Jaehaerys II lived longer, the Prophet generation would likely have had more issues to deal with and something to rebel against.


281 - 298 = Baratheon Unraveling; Quite frankly the new order that Aerys had established with the loss of Lannister favor could have gone on for some time, had Rhaegar not kidnapped Lyanna. Robert's Rebellion and the way it is mentioned in the story is treated in a lot of ways like we would World War I (another 3T War) in that it overthrew a dynasty, but brought with it no lasting form of change to the way things were done. For all intents and purposes, all that changed was the man who sat the Iron Throne itself. Largely Robert's Rebellion was a thoughtless and pointless war, fought because a daughter of noble house disappeared with the Crown Prince, and the father of one of them just so happened to be King and react badly. It's justified afterwards by the fact that the King was insane. Similarly I draw the similarity historically speaking to how WWI broke out which took the underlying tensions that had been simmering through the 2T and allowed them to play out in warfare in a 3T.

Robert's early reign is a continuation of Westeros' overall Third Turning and if anything plants all the seeds for the Crisis that is to come when Robert will eventually die. The biggest indication that they're still Third Turning is that despite a major change in the status quo (getting rid of the Targaryen Dynasty) they still attempt to keep the old system that the Targaryens put in place together. They do this literally by not replacing lords even if they rebel against them (Greyjoys) and metaphorically (keeping the "heir gets the title Prince and the castle of Dragonstone to call his own" tradition vis a vis Stannis). This desire at once to simply only do away the the so-called "bad parts" of the old system without truly solving the problems and tensions that system held together is such a 3T action, I can hardly say much more. At once it pretends to be some kind of new order, but really it's the same old order with just a different face. Think of this period equivalent to the end of the Cold War or the end of WWI respectively, where a supposedly "new world order" was being put in place, while in fact it was just the old order with a face lift, ignoring the fault lines of the old order. It's that attempt to keep the old system together despite the change in circumstances of who's sitting on the Iron Throne, which leads to the eventual Crisis.

The latter half of Robert's reign after the Greyjoy rebellion is very much a "Roaring 20s" and "Naughty Oughties" for Westeros. Having proved himself as defender of the Seven Kingdoms Robert begins the decades' long parties by holding a Tournament in Lannisport, which had suffered greatly during the Greyjoy Rebellion. The Tournament being held there is to help re-generate trade and get the city back on its feet economically, as well as for the Knights of the recent war to show off their skills. In fact that seems to be Robert's solution to everything from this point forward: hold a Tournament. It reminds me very much of George W. Bush's "go shopping" answer to 9/11 and the wild spend-beyond-your-means consumer culture of the late 90s and early 00s in general. Robert's only other solution as King seems to be to throw money at the problem and leave it to Jon Arryn to solve for him. In truth, he's not that great of a King. He's a great soldier, but once he has power he has no idea what to do with it. The treasury he'd inherited at the beginning of his reign was filled beyond capacity. Over the course of the next decade, Robert goes on a long spending spree, which the rest of the Kingdom ultimately emulates (with exception of Ned in the North, who keeps to the sensible track of saving up for Winter, knowing that it will return eventually, while the party goes on down South). If you want your 1920s or late 90s/early 00s equivalent of a decadent spend thrift third turning culture, the Long Summer is the period to look to. It is the death of Robert, which ultimately is the catalyst for the Fourth Turning in Westeros. Everything before Robert's death was merely the intensification of previous problems, and had Robert not died they could have been solved/delayed in their own ways and kept to minor kertuffles--even the whole scouring of the Riverlands could have been "solved" in a 3T manner--though unlikely to anyone's satisfaction. In this sense, Robert is metaphorically the spirit of the Third Turning of Westeros, and with him dies the Third Turning.


299 - present = Second Long Night Crisis; Total warfare of the Wars of the Five Kings devastates the countryside in the South while in the Far North, the Wildlings, spurred by the encroachment of the Others, march south upon the Wall.

The wait for Season 6 to begin
is almost over. Woo-hoo!


Prince