As we have seen from fumbling upheavals such as the Arab Spring and the Occupy Wall Street movement, and from successful upheavals such as the American Revolution, Civil War and the New Deal/World War 2, an overriding vision for the future of a society is the single most critical factor in a successful revolution. A vision for a viable institutional order to replace the incumbent one is the only thing that can give a people the motivation to both start a revolution, and to actually see it through to victory. A vision gives people a rallying cry, a beacon of hope and ambition. With that in mind, it seems to me that the obvious reason that Americans today lack ambition and willpower to challenge the status quo order of things, is that there is no coherent plan, no vision for what would replace the current social order. We hear all the crazy fringe people scream "Revolution!" or "Off with their heads!", but they always fail to provide an idea of what they would like to replace the current set-up with, other than anarchy or authoritarianism. No wonder that Americans today are apathetic and lack hope. Without a vision to fight for, what exactly do we expect to motivate them? On that note, I would like this thread to be a purely imaginative place for forum members to showcase their ideas of a future America, what it would be like, including specific laws if you want, to get the conversation started on what Americans will fight for when the time of urgency and crisis arrives. I do not want this to degenerate into a flame zone, I want courteous discussion, and want none of you to feel too ashamed to express your ideas! Conservative? Liberal? Who cares! Everyone feel free to contribute. Have fun!

I'll get the ball rolling with my own, admittedly half-assed ideas.

I imagine an America where money in politics is illegal, and power is determined solely by the popularity of politicians among voters.
I imagine an America where it is recognized that a well-educated, healthy public is necessary for a functioning democracy, and so, higher education and health care are decoupled from the private sector and made free and universal to everyone.
I imagine an America where people can come together on a government online platform to directly vote on which issues matter to them the most, and are therefore put before Congress by default, not by petition, but as a standardized system for public action.
I imagine an America where gays, women, and minority races/ethnicity groups are treated equally before the law, with neither segregation, nor affirmative action.
I imagine an America that is powered not by fossil fuels, but by renewable energy sources, primarily solar power.
I imagine an America where job training programs are mandatory in exchange for unemployment welfare.
I imagine an America with a livable minimum wage, indexed to inflation.
I imagine an America that is not the sole police force of the world, but instead works with the other nations of the world for a multilateral international security system.

That's all I got for now, haha, but I welcome other, more well-developed ideas based on more than just wishful thinking than mine were.

Originally Posted by MK'94

As we have seen from fumbling upheavals such as the Arab Spring and the Occupy Wall Street movement, and from successful upheavals such as the American Revolution, Civil War and the New Deal/World War 2, an overriding vision for the future of a society is the single most critical factor in a successful revolution. A vision for a viable institutional order to replace the incumbent one is the only thing that can give a people the motivation to both start a revolution, and to actually see it through to victory. A vision gives people a rallying cry, a beacon of hope and ambition. With that in mind, it seems to me that the obvious reason that Americans today lack ambition and willpower to challenge the status quo order of things, is that there is no coherent plan, no vision for what would replace the current social order. We hear all the crazy fringe people scream "Revolution!" or "Off with their heads!", but they always fail to provide an idea of what they would like to replace the current set-up with, other than anarchy or authoritarianism. No wonder that Americans today are apathetic and lack hope. Without a vision to fight for, what exactly do we expect to motivate them? On that note, I would like this thread to be a purely imaginative place for forum members to showcase their ideas of a future America, what it would be like, including specific laws if you want, to get the conversation started on what Americans will fight for when the time of urgency and crisis arrives. I do not want this to degenerate into a flame zone, I want courteous discussion, and want none of you to feel too ashamed to express your ideas! Conservative? Liberal? Who cares! Everyone feel free to contribute. Have fun!

OK sir! Good idea.

First though, it is not the case that there is no vision; it's been there since the Awakening. All you need to do is read the Visionaries of the Consciousness Revolution thread to see it.

The problem is that Americans ignore the vision, and are hooked on outdated ideologies instead.

1. I imagine an America where gays, women, and minority races/ethnicity groups are treated equally before the law, with neither segregation, nor affirmative action.
2. I imagine an America that is powered not by fossil fuels, but by renewable energy sources, primarily solar power.
3. I imagine an America where job training programs are mandatory in exchange for unemployment welfare.

Your visionary platform is good. #2 is absolutely necessary, and our resources and wild places should be protected and our air and water free from pollution (including carbon pollution).

Regarding #1 above, I think affirmative action can go once equality before the law is a fact, including an equal right to a good education, instead of a good education depending on whether you live in a rich district. Your #3 I quoted here is already the case since 1995. In fact, though, as I see it, a bigger and broader safety net will be needed (contrary to the dominant Republican ideology today), because so many jobs have been replaced by machines and overseas workers. Training is not the need now, so much as a new education system that fosters creativity instead of rote learning to pass tests. Also, I would add the need for higher wages (which you mentioned) for fewer hours, to help deal with the unemployment resulting from this replacement. Advances in technology belong to all of us, not just its owners. The owners and CEOs who today benefit disproportionately from increased productivity through automation should be required to share that benefit with the workers who support them, through taxes if necessary; and to that end, unions should be encouraged by law rather than discouraged-- as is the case under the current ideology. Greater support for artists of all kinds will be needed. Today the police and the prisons are given too much power and have too many inmates. Our drug policies must be changed, and innocence before proven guilty should be restored.

Equality and ecology are the two political ideals worth being politically active for, or fighting for if necessary. Removing money from politics is the chief reform, though proportional representation/ranked choice voting, a parliamentary system, a less powerful filibuster, change to the electoral college, or possibly a divided nation between red and blue may be up for discussion. Greater worker ownership of companies, smaller companies, and more coops, will increasingly emerge as goals; especially by the next Awakening, if not before.

Underneath the political vision, is renewed realization stemming from the recent Awakening that we are spiritual beings deserving of respect as such, not commodities or machines to be used, and we need to respect and revere all life and all of our environment as sacred and inherently valuable, and to know that it is an extension of ourselves, and we of it. By the time we reach the 1T and 2T, our cities and towns will increasingly be planned and designed beautifully with human and natural rather than just economic and technological needs in mind. Our aspiration for the USA should be to create a civilization that will inspire future generations, as have the great civilizations of the past; not just to be powerful, efficient and prosperous. Quality, not just quantity, is the bottom line of the future.

Restorationism would be the framework to create the future that is being hoped here.

I agree with Eric that lack of vision isn't a problem. When I look at MK'94's eight points, aside from the third one you'd find those points in the worldview of the typical left-leaning American. There's not a whole lot of disagreement there. The problem as I see it is a lack of organization, especially on the local level. Supporters of Obama got frustrated that he didn't do enough, but he had a filibustered Senate and gerrymandered House to deal with, the latter which arose from gerrymandered state legislators thanks to the GOP getting their act together on a grassroots level. Democrats need to do the same if they want to get things quicker. I'm hopeful that the 4T will make it so with the Boom/X/Millennial alignment.

Originally Posted by MK'94

We hear all the crazy fringe people scream "Revolution!" or "Off with their heads!", but they always fail to provide an idea of what they would like to replace the current set-up with, other than anarchy or authoritarianism. No wonder that Americans today are apathetic and lack hope.

The job of a revolutionary is to make revolution. Revolutionaries DO NOT worry about what comes AFTER the revolution.

Great song/video that I think sums up our current situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVbhHBGA8lg

What does the next saeculum look like?

Honestly, I just don't see how the current crisis is going to serve as a catalyst for some great socialist movement in the United States like people like Eric and MK'94 seem to think.

The Millennials are interested in building a ruthlessly efficient, technologically-savvy society and there's a strong element of neoliberalism and corporatism that runs parallel to that vision. The future is going to look like the inside of an Apple store. Positively, there's a strong element of egalitarianism and social justice that the Millennials have incorporated into their vision of the future but it would be a stretch to call it something that's going to represent a dramatic departure from the standard White liberal way of thinking that is already prevalent in this country. The Millennials are going to be a dystopia of sorts; it will look tolerant and socially conscious on the outside, but will actually be radically opposed to traditional religious conservatism and minority interests.

Originally Posted by Dboy

The job of a revolutionary is to make revolution. Revolutionaries DO NOT worry about what comes AFTER the revolution.

Great song/video that I think sums up our current situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVbhHBGA8lg

This is largely why a lot of revolutions (with some exceptions) have ended up in failure. Nobody was there planning the after, just the here and now.

Originally Posted by Del Tachi

What does the next saeculum look like?

Honestly, I just don't see how the current crisis is going to serve as a catalyst for some great socialist movement in the United States like people like Eric and MK'94 seem to think.

The Millennials are interested in building a ruthlessly efficient, technologically-savvy society and there's a strong element of neoliberalism and corporatism that runs parallel to that vision. The future is going to look like the inside of an Apple store. Positively, there's a strong element of egalitarianism and social justice that the Millennials have incorporated into their vision of the future but it would be a stretch to call it something that's going to represent a dramatic departure from the standard White liberal way of thinking that is already prevalent in this country. The Millennials are going to be a dystopia of sorts; it will look tolerant and socially conscious on the outside, but will actually be radically opposed to traditional religious conservatism and minority interests.

You've got some really good points here, so I'm going to jump off from this platform if you don't mind. One thing you missed here is that Millennials want guarantees. No fine print, no exceptions, guarantees. While I don't think you'll see European style tax and spend on social services style socialism, I do think certain things (healthcare being one, infrastructure being another, and possibly needs like housing). GIs wanted a safety net, Millennials don't want to have to walk a right rope at all.

Now given the amount of new guarantees, I do think you're right that anyone asking for anything more will be told to go away in a rather impolite fashion. When it comes to religion, I do expect to see mainline Christianity to make a really big comeback. It might just be Pope Francis, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's another Billy Graham equivalent who steeps his feet in both the hot ash of the 4T and the ocean at high tide if the 2T.

One of the things I was thinking about recently was why there always seems to bee this nonreligiously connected spiritualism that crops up in the 2T that can't survive the 4T. The conclusion that I came to was that spirituality dies in times of strong certainty. Who has use for a fortune teller when you can see that tomorrow will bring more of the same. Whether it's joy or misery, the certainty that tomorrow will come and be connected entirely to the outcome of today kills the need for intense spirituality. Meanwhile the balm for the chafing irritation of certainty is tradition, strangely. The comfort that cones with knowing that whatever misery today brings, you know that you are one more in the grand infinite tradition of others doing exactly that.

So I kinda expect to see some of your more liberal, less naggy and shrill forms of Christianity to become much more relevant. Presbyterian, Methodist, and liberal Catholic churches would be my overall guess for churches that get big. Maybe some liberal Quaker churches for those that do want a bit more spiritualism mixed in with a comfortable tradition. But yeah, I think being "spiritual but not religious" will go the way of the hyper color shirt in the next 10 years.

Now that said, I expect that a Millennials will demand to keep their secular public life. I think that's where the religious conservatives will get their orders to pound sand. Anything that reminds Millennials of their parents unbridled, unrestrained emotional bickering? Gone. Already quashed.

In the same way, I expect that minority rights won't expand, but I don't expect them to recede either. Basically, it's that wonderful time where it's time for culture to take a nap so we can regroup, rebuild, and relax for a while.

Originally Posted by Kepi

You've got some really good points here, so I'm going to jump off from this platform if you don't mind. One thing you missed here is that Millennials want guarantees. No fine print, no exceptions, guarantees. While I don't think you'll see European style tax and spend on social services style socialism, I do think certain things (healthcare being one, infrastructure being another, and possibly needs like housing). GIs wanted a safety net, Millennials don't want to have to walk a right rope at all.

Contrary to what Del Tachi says, the European style of tax and spend social programs are the wave of the future, and were just recently (circa 1980) discarded for the delusions of Reaganism in the USA. We'd only go back to resuming logical and sensible progress that should never have been interrupted, and which is responsible for today's inequality. Calling it socialism is a bit extreme; socialism means that the government owns and runs the economy. That won't happen. But social programs can't be discarded, and will expand again, yes. I don't think millennials have any stake in trickle-down, supply side individualist delusions. THAT is what is the pipe dream, if Gen Xers now think it will survive this 4T. Reagan was just a temporary detour caused and maintained by people like Jeremy Dodge, JDFP and Tussilago being persuaded by a charming Hollywood actor. Inequality is already a prime target among millennial activists and older writers too. We will be going the other way from the 2020s onward toward the 2060s.

But tech-obsessed; yes the millennials are that. So corporatism will not go away. Both will be challenged in the following 2T though.

Now given the amount of new guarantees, I do think you're right that anyone asking for anything more will be told to go away in a rather impolite fashion. When it comes to religion, I do expect to see mainline Christianity to make a really big comeback. It might just be Pope Francis, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's another Billy Graham equivalent who steeps his feet in both the hot ash of the 4T and the ocean at high tide if the 2T.

Perhaps mainline Christianity will make a comeback in the 1T, but not the 4T. Conformity and safety do increase in 1Ts, according to the theory. On the other hand, this upcoming 1T will be more active and not as bland as the previous one, since the victory will not be as great. So there won't be as much conformity either, and thus not as much reversion to mainline Christianity.

One of the things I was thinking about recently was why there always seems to be this nonreligiously connected spiritualism that crops up in the 2T that can't survive the 4T. The conclusion that I came to was that spirituality dies in times of strong certainty. Who has use for a fortune teller when you can see that tomorrow will bring more of the same. Whether it's joy or misery, the certainty that tomorrow will come and be connected entirely to the outcome of today kills the need for intense spirituality. Meanwhile the balm for the chafing irritation of certainty is tradition, strangely. The comfort that cones with knowing that whatever misery today brings, you know that you are one more in the grand infinite tradition of others doing exactly that.

So I kinda expect to see some of your more liberal, less naggy and shrill forms of Christianity to become much more relevant. Presbyterian, Methodist, and liberal Catholic churches would be my overall guess for churches that get big. Maybe some liberal Quaker churches for those that do want a bit more spiritualism mixed in with a comfortable tradition. But yeah, I think being "spiritual but not religious" will go the way of the hyper color shirt in the next 10 years.

Why would that be the case? You think that what is only sensible and free of dated tradition will go away?

I certainly see no evidence at this site of any consensus or certainty about what is to come. It is me, the spiritual but not religious person (although I do belong to a church, actually) who is the most clear on what will happen. And it is quite different than what you see.

Opinion polls don't confirm the idea that "spiritual but not religious" is declining, but indicate that it is expanding.

Again I point out that the new spirituality is a new movement in America. It is a revolution whose destiny is to grow and to transform the country, and is what is most needed in this country of materialism and techno-obsessed scientism. No civilization can in the long run survive or make any lasting contribution that does not rest on a spiritual foundation. The only true vision of the future is a spiritualizing of a country whose chief problem is materialism and chief need is for spirituality. And for a more sensitive kind of art and music too, beyond the frantic and the frenetic that sucks in too many youth today.

I was thinking along these lines today. Del Tachi's vision of more Apple stores reminds me of the fact that in the past, people worked hard at the behest of aristocrats, kings and priests to build great monuments. You can complain that they weren't free men. But they built beautiful works of art that are of lasting value and significance. Today, the great collective works are done at the behest of wealthy CEOs in vast corporations. What are they building? Mostly whatever will get them through the next quarter with a profitable bottom line. Nothing except whatever sells. Nothing of lasting value at all. Purely survival oriented certainty. And are people who work in corporations under managers and CEOs any more "free" than those who worked under kings, priests and emperors? I say not; corporations are prisons. And they imprison the imagination most of all. They may be around for a while yet, but they are not the future.

Now that said, I expect that a Millennials will demand to keep their secular public life. I think that's where the religious conservatives will get their orders to pound sand. Anything that reminds Millennials of their parents unbridled, unrestrained emotional bickering? Gone. Already quashed.

In the same way, I expect that minority rights won't expand, but I don't expect them to recede either. Basically, it's that wonderful time where it's time for culture to take a nap so we can regroup, rebuild, and relax for a while.

I expect so. 1Ts are more relaxed and less emotional. But remember, the millennials won't be the only generation around. There will still be lots of bickering too; count on it. Certainly lots more yet to come in this 4T, and some left-over squabbles will continue, leading into the next 2T after only 18 years or so.

Originally Posted by Dboy

The job of a revolutionary is to make revolution. Revolutionaries DO NOT worry about what comes AFTER the revolution.

That's why threads like this one are good. A revolution in a 4T has a vision supplied by the previous 2T. Our job now is to remake the nation according to that vision.

Great song/video that I think sums up our current situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVbhHBGA8lg

I'm not sure what it sums up. Putting Reagan at the start aligns him with reactionaries who represent what needs to be overthrown. This guy is himself a representative of the false America which needs to fall in this 4T. He can't even finish his song without quoting a song that represented those he wants to defeat now.

In this song:

http://youtu.be/FCgZpYZZ6og

he just says he's fed up and pledges allegiance to America. He says it's "not left or right;" wrong: progress and real freedom lies on the left.

Musically tho, not bad! Better than "Stand Up." But not exactly catching fire, apparently.

Here he aligns himself specifically with the reactionaries like the gun nuts who will be defeated when they rebel in the 2020s:

http://youtu.be/_Nunu6ISeBM

Same song as above quoted; but he defends the reactionary point of view even more overtly.

I actually see the next 1T resulting in a wave of Ludditism, since many Millies feel resentful that the "digital world" was forced upon them by Jonesers and Xers. The "21st century" was not a Millie creation. It stemmed more from Xer and Joneser pragmatism. Millies didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Millies are the ones spearheading the rebirth of vinyl. That's just an example of course to reinforce a larger point. There's much nostalgia for the past among us "Capricorn Neptunes". ;-)

I remember when Xers spearheaded their own Vinyl resurgence. There's always somebody.

Originally Posted by Remy Renault

I actually see the next 1T resulting in a wave of Ludditism, since many Millies feel resentful that the "digital world" was forced upon them by Jonesers and Xers. The "21st century" was not a Millie creation. It stemmed more from Xer and Joneser pragmatism. Millies didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Millies are the ones spearheading the rebirth of vinyl. That's just an example of course to reinforce a larger point. There's much nostalgia for the past among us "Capricorn Neptunes". ;-)

If your vision is spot on, which I am not sure it will be because Millies have embraced the high-tech culture hook, line and sinker, do you expect that, for example, letter writing may come back into vogue at that time?

Originally Posted by Remy Renault

I actually see the next 1T resulting in a wave of Ludditism, since many Millies feel resentful that the "digital world" was forced upon them by Jonesers and Xers. The "21st century" was not a Millie creation. It stemmed more from Xer and Joneser pragmatism. Millies didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Millies are the ones spearheading the rebirth of vinyl. That's just an example of course to reinforce a larger point. There's much nostalgia for the past among us "Capricorn Neptunes". ;-)

Well, you can attribute a lot of this tech boom to mid-60s "atari wave" Xers, and also to Boomer entreprenuers and inventors like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, et al. and earlier figures too. But Xers were usually isolated individuals in the way they used computers, while millies are networkers and organizers. That's the difference, and that's mostly where the Capricorn and the civic archetype come in, just like the "organization men" born in the 1900s and 1910s. I don't see any tendency yet to reject technology on the part of civic, tech-oriented millennials (quite the opposite), and I certainly don't see any rejection of such things happening in a 1T, or at least an early to mid 1T. That will be a 2T phenomenon, and younger millennials could spearhead such a move then, just as folks like Timothy Leary and Baba Ram Dass did in the sixties; and of course early Silents like Allen Ginsberg and Coltrane will find an echo in the new silent "sensitives" or homelanders. The cycle will come around again.

One sign I see of a rebirth of delicate sensitivity or naturalism is when Neptune is in Taurus in the 2040s. That will include a late 1T, and in the past corresponded with both rococo and impressionism. The school of impressionism coincided exactly with Neptune's transit in Taurus. Look for that cycle to come around again too. As with the impressionists and the beats though, it may be a fringe phenomenon only recognized later on in the 2T.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

of course early Silents like Allen Ginsberg and Coltrane will find an echo in the new silent "sensitives" or homelanders. The cycle will come around again.

One sign I see of a rebirth of delicate sensitivity or naturalism is when Neptune is in Taurus in the 2040s. That will include a late 1T, and in the past corresponded with both rococo and impressionism. The school of impressionism coincided exactly with Neptune's transit in Taurus. Look for that cycle to come around again too. As with the impressionists and the beats though, it may be a fringe phenomenon only recognized later on in the 2T.

Eh, maybe, but not every saeculum plays out the same way, even if I agree on the presence of cycles to a certain degree. The 'times' aren't the same in every 4T just as they aren't always the same in every 2T or even 1T, so it won't always necessarily be the same archetypes leading the way artistically and culturally in every saeculum. Just an example, plenty of "Lost" geniuses blossomed artistically "on time", but one can't say the same for Gen X. Likewise, the 1880s generation was made up of Nomad/Prophet cuspers, but where is Generation Jones' response to James Joyce?

Originally Posted by Remy Renault

Eh, maybe, but not every saeculum plays out the same way, even if I agree on the presence of cycles to a certain degree. The 'times' aren't the same in every 4T just as they aren't always the same in every 2T or even 1T, so it won't always necessarily be the same archetypes leading the way artistically and culturally in every saeculum. Just an example, plenty of "Lost" geniuses blossomed artistically "on time", but one can't say the same for Gen X. Likewise, the 1880s generation was made up of Nomad/Prophet cuspers, but where is Generation Jones' response to James Joyce?

It's true that current times don't produce the artistic genius that previous ones did. Boomers, Xers and Millennials are somewhat infertile in that respect. I agree with you there. I have said that we certainly have the potential, because of the tools and knowledge available to us. But the golden age hasn't happened. It's because our priorities are different: making money, keeping security, waging culture wars, waging real wars, doing science with a materialist perspective, etc. It may be somewhat better in Europe than in crass and commercial America. It is tough for American Gen Xers and Jonesers to follow in the footsteps of European Losts. Americans aren't looking enough to Europe for inspiration.

Turn of the 20th century Europe was a major moment of transition and transformation in civilization. Those moments are rare, but it could have led to a new renaissance today. It doesn't seem to be happening, in my estimation. When I say this, many of my friends and people here start pointing out ways in which we are in a golden age. I think they really know that we aren't there yet. We could still do it though, and we don't have to stop being creative and die off like Mr. Wallace did.

Still, the cycles will come around, and I don't see millennials becoming luddites! Not until some of them do in the late 1T. Cycles still repeat, and history still rhymes. 1Ts are not times of luddites, cultural upheavals and counter-cultures, even if some good artistic work is done. And we did have quite an Awakening in the late sixties and 70s. It came right on schedule and in the fullest measure. If it has been knocked and ignored by so many Jonesers, Xers and Millennials, then we have no-one to blame but ourselves for not developing this amazing inspiration that came to us into real, ingenious artistic expression. We can still do it if we start looking to it, instead of knocking it because we want to knock Boomers, or the sixties, or some such nonsense. And if that's not your cup of tea, we also have all the times of inspiration from all past cycles among all peoples to inspire us, and especially the start of a whole new civilization 100+ years ago. No people before us has ever had this. We just need to remember what life is about.

Well, thanks for the opening you gave me Remy for my favorite speech

Keeping on with my genius clusters and outer-planet aspects theme, it is true that people from core Boomers to early Millennials don't have aspects among the outer 3 planets as strongly as some other generations do. That's because the planets have been more clumped together. Many people have some sort of aspect among them going on in their charts though, so it's up to us to develop it. The circa 1993 group may be the ones to bring about a belated golden age renaissance in the arts. This could happen in the early 2020s, according to some planetary indications I have.

Civics are not usually the artistic leaders, so if this happens, it shows that your point is well taken that the same archetypes are not always the geniuses. Events, planetary patterns and so on don't repeat at regular intervals according to just one major cycle like the Uranus return/the saeculum. So the patterns and rhythms are somewhat different each time.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It's true that current times don't produce the artistic genius that previous ones did. Boomers, Xers and Millennials are somewhat infertile in that respect. I agree with you there. I have said that we certainly have the potential, because of the tools and knowledge available to us. But the golden age hasn't happened. It's because our priorities are different: making money, keeping security, waging culture wars, waging real wars, doing science with a materialist perspective, etc. It may be somewhat better in Europe than in crass and commercial America. It is tough for American Gen Xers and Jonesers to follow in the footsteps of European Losts. Americans aren't looking enough to Europe for inspiration.

Most of the great "Lost" geniuses were American, were they not? As for infertility, I'd say it's a bit too soon to determine that with respect to Millennials. By the way, weren't you the one who suggested a golden age might occur in the 2020s? If so, that may be the renaissance we're still waiting for, and it will be spearheaded by first wave Millies.

I've never noticed Millies to be very anti-sixties though. That's more just Xers and Jonesers I think. The generational gap and resentment relates more to Booomers' 3T narcissism then to their initial idealism.

For the record, Europeans born between 1945 and 1980 haven't accomplished much themselves in the cultural sphere either, although there are exceptions, but listing them would be besides the point.

Originally Posted by Remy Renault

Most of the great "Lost" geniuses were American, were they not? As for infertility, I'd say it's a bit too soon to determine that with respect to Millennials. By the way, weren't you the one who suggested a golden age might occur in the 2020s? If so, that may be the renaissance we're still waiting for.

Yes, as I wrote above. Usually though I write about the 2020s as a time of political and social reform. It WILL be that, but the renaissance potential is also there especially early in the decade. It could be a good new beginning. Inspiration is certainly possible in these times (Neptune in Pisces; come on!)

Spearheaded by first wave millies, if they can shake off the materialism that I see so prevalent here among them. With the 1993 conjunction, it seems to me that the late core millies will be the ones to watch.

There were lots of Lost American geniuses, and most of them went to Europe to escape the "wasteland." That's what young people today are not doing; instead they wallow in it and its lousy music. Oh well; may we wake up!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes, as I wrote above. Usually though I write about the 2020s as a time of political and social reform. It WILL be that, but the renaissance potential is also there especially early in the decade. It could be a good new beginning. Inspiration is certainly possible in these times (Neptune in Pisces; come on!)

Spearheaded by first wave millies, if they can shake off the materialism that I see so prevalent here among them. With the 1993 conjunction, it seems to me that the late core millies will be the ones to watch.

There were lots of Lost American geniuses, and most of them went to Europe to escape the "wasteland." That's what young people today are not doing; instead they wallow in it and its lousy music. Oh well; may we wake up!

But even much of Western Europe is a "wasteland" these days and Paris has become very culturally sclerotic, although I wouldn't quite use the word "wasteland". Going to a non-OECD or more generally "non-Western" country seems to be the best option.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Spearheaded by first wave millies, if they can shake off the materialism that I see so prevalent here among them. With the 1993 conjunction, it seems to me that the late core millies will be the ones to watch.

I don't see my cohort, late eighties, as being particularly materialistic, at least in no worse a way than 'Aquarian' Boomers were when they were young. The mid-eighties babies are the shallow ones...for the most part, as I do have friends born in the mid-eighties, so I'd rather be careful before generalizing. It's people from my own college class, 2010, mostly born in 1988, that are shipping off to Istanbul, India, and such without a "9-5" lined up. Yes, they are. Whether they specifically have "artistic" aspirations, I'm not sure, but...

Originally Posted by Remy Renault

I don't see my cohort, late eighties, as being particularly materialistic, at least in no worse a way than 'Aquarian' Boomers were when they were young. The mid-eighties babies are the shallow ones...for the most part, as I do have friends born in the mid-eighties, so I'd rather be careful before generalizing. It's people from my own college class, 2010, mostly born in 1988, that are shipping off to Istanbul, India, and such without a "9-5" lined up. Yes, they are. Whether they specifically have "artistic" aspirations, I'm not sure, but...

Well, the first-wave millies are the early and mid eighties. But OK I'll be careful 1988-89 are certainly astrologically interesting, that much is sure! People born when "the wall" fell are shipping off beyond the walls of their usual worlds; that fits.

Aquarian boomers when young were strongly anti-materialistic, both in philosophy and lifestyle. They were known as new romantics. Then came the counter-awakening and the 3T, and well, some of them went back to the old ways. Now they are joining tea parties. Oh well, that's America....

Our own Chas (1988 cohort) is an interesting case. Very knowledgeable and inventive intellectually, but his taste in music is less inspiring. With millennials being civics, artistic and spiritual inspiration doesn't always come naturally. Millennials too often are texting on their smart phones. But, we'll see; may you be right!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Our own Chas (1988 cohort) is an interesting case. Very knowledgeable and inventive intellectually, but his taste in music is less inspiring. With millennials being civics, artistic and spiritual inspiration doesn't always come naturally. Millennials too often are texting on their smart phones. But, we'll see; may you be right!

What qualifies as "less inspiring" music taste to you? Just remember, simply because you don't "care for" something doesn't make it bad. Personal 'likes' and 'dislikes' is not the wisest way of gauging inherent artistic merit. This is something Boomers in general often fall prey to. Their notions of 'genius' correspond exclusively to their personal 'likes'. Many people, understandably, probably won't care for King Crimson just as Ornette Coleman won't appeal to everyone. Do I 'like' Francis Bacon's or Jackson Pollock's paintings? No, not particularly, but I can accept their importance nonetheless. Only Boomers who actively "like" their work will accept them.

So Eric, Mr. Astrology, what's you take on sun, moon, and rising signs, and how they affect genius? Are those pretty much irrelevant? Also, I'd be careful about freely using the terms 'genius' and 'iconoclast' interchangeably. Not all geniuses are "iconoclasts". The 1880s cohorts may have certainly been "trendier" than the geniuses emanating from the GI generation whether in the US and Europe, but that's about all it tells us.