Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

That's a great question to ask yourself when you're talking to me. I'm not reliant upon you at this point. I'm to young to retire and receive social security. I'm to old and have the wrong color of skin and am the wrong gender to receive sympathy and financial support from the Democrats. So, what good are you to me at this point. All I get from the Democrats and their Progressive base is a bunch of insults and finger pointing and blame for stuff that is for the most part within their own control and beyond our control. Politics is like a religion to them. Politics to me is simply a means to get things done peacefully.

What do you want to get done?

Republicans propose and act on a program of doing nothing for anybody.

Plenty of white people support Democrats. I am white and voted a D ticket on Tuesday. I never feel insulted by Democrats because I am white.

I understand that Democrats propose and enact policies that benefit me. I got health insurance. I will be getting social security next year, which Democrats protected for me. Democrats preserve the environment, which is very important to me. They propose to roll back climate change, which will protect the beaches I love. Democrats reformed the economic system so no more bailouts for too-big-to-fail financial gamblers will occur. Republicans want to stop, repeal and destroy all of this. They want to shift the tax burden on to me. Democrats do plenty for me. Republicans do plenty against me.

You will be getting social security and medicare before you know it. Xers will get to that age very soon. You can get health insurance now if your company doesn't provide it. Republicans seek to destroy this system, so that you will get nothing.

If you don't want to be called "deceived" or "ignorant" by progressives, then stop being ignorant and deceived. That decision is in your hands alone, not in mine. Trickle-down economics never works. Lower taxes and regulations on business and total free enterprise does not work for anyone. It is also unfair. It destroys the economy in great crashes. Know the facts. Vote for your interests, and for the interests of your country and planet too. Because you can't have personal needs fulfilled if your world goes to hell.

Oil is a horrible, horrible long-term economic bet, too.

If we build that pipeline, it will never turn a penny in real, aggregate profit.

The only people who will see any benefit are the ones who own it, and taxpayers are going to be left holding the empty bag when the oil trade trickles to a close and we have a big mess to clean up.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

That's a great question to ask yourself when you're talking to me. I'm not reliant upon you at this point. I'm to young to retire and receive social security. I'm to old and have the wrong color of skin and am the wrong gender to receive sympathy and financial support from the Democrats. So, what good are you to me at this point. All I get from the Democrats and their Progressive base is a bunch of insults and finger pointing and blame for stuff that is for the most part within their own control and beyond our control. Politics is like a religion to them. Politics to me is simply a means to get things done peacefully.

Well put. That is exactly one of the Democratic party's big problem. Identity politics is a losing proposition.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Well put. That is exactly one of the Democratic party's big problem. Identity politics is a losing proposition.

We are in it together. What does the Hard Right have to offer us but hunger, the lash, and chains? I have never known those to get more than the bare minimum of productivity.

A hint: the British got more out of India during WWII than the Germans got out of the whole of occupied Europe. India was poorer, but its people had cause to produce, for such would make their lives better. The British even got more soldiers from India for fighting the wars against the Axis than the British needed for occupation duty in India. Deal fairly, and you get good results with anyone at all competent and rational.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Like you said, you exist in a world that is increasingly alien to you. Most boomers are. However they continue to act like the old world, their world is the true one, and some how the one currently existing is some sort of illusion. That's not the case. Treating the emerging world as if it's the same as the old one is utter nonsense.

In the technological sense, you're right. From the social sense, not so much. As social animals, we haven't changed all that much since our hunter-gatherer days. Occasionally, we build new social structures, and they last (cities for example), but often we experiment and just move on. The post-WWII era was an experiment in a more equal economy. Apparently, we decided it didn't cut it ... for now at least. I suspect the New Prophets will have a different opinion.

Originally Posted by Kepi ...

This is part and parcel of why Boomer leadership is failing and why both republicans and democrats days are numbered, at least in their current formats. You claim you have some lesson, but it's a lesson from the old world. It doesn't fit the current format. The world has changed, and it's not done changing. But Boomers didn't embrace it, you guys want to act like everything is the same as it ever was. It's not, and that's probably the biggest of the problems created in the 4T. The world is still changing, completely independent of the will and whim of everyone, especially the people in charge.

No, the people in charge are moving the world just the way they wish. The changes you focus on so intently are having no impact on that, except to exacerbate the problem. Your generation has a cultural link you share, but it's filtered through the technology that makes it less powerful in the real world. Social media is not social action, but you seem to believe it should be. Sorry, it won't happen. The PTB have no reason to pander to you. You are no threat to them, and they are getting most of what they want right now.

Originally Posted by Kepi ...

So basically, 1) the world you guys wanted isn't viable, 2) it is disruptive to the emerging world, 3) Millennials are going to choose the emerging world over anything else because that is the reality they occupy and the only thing they really have to do for the old world to die is wait.

I'll respond with 1) maybe the world we imagined was foolish, but the one you want is no better, 2) the emerging world isn't the one you think is happening , except in the virtual sense. I doubt you can live on virtual food and live in virtual houses, 3) you're right that it's you turn to screw up, and you'll have to answer for that. You're already behind the 8-ball, and fighting hard to stay there.

I'll respond with 1) maybe the world we imagined was foolish, but the one you want is no better, 2) the emerging world isn't the one you think is happening , except in the virtual sense. I doubt you can live on virtual food and live in virtual houses, 3) you're right that it's you turn to screw up, and you'll have to answer for that. You're already behind the 8-ball, and fighting hard to stay there.

Kepi is right. The world is changing and policies need to keep up with new technology and other changes. Technology can make our lives heaven or hell and we have a choice to do either. Policies and the way things are done should make sense in the real world.

Originally Posted by radind

I keep hearing about ‘voter suppression', but I don’t see evidence of these claims. Unless you view Voter ID as ‘voter suppression”. The State of Alabama recently made photo ID a requirement to vote, but I don’t consider voter ID to be voter suppression.

The problem isn't the ID itself, but the documents you need to get one. The poor and elderly are most likely to lack a birth certificate, and many IDs require a certified copy in any case. Getting one and paying for it is the issue. Once you have one, you can get more any time you need one.

If the issue of illegal voting was really an issue, I wouldn't be so negative about this ... but it's not.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

A failed 4T? I suspect one could have a failed 4T simply because leadership (of whatever ideology/party) doesn't comprehend a changing world. In fact, we seem to be on the cusp of multiple transitions, and the world may end up strange even to Millies.

I suspect that will be the case. The Law of Unintended Consequences in action.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

Lawrence O'Donnell asked, on MSNBC tonight (Thursday), where the Senate Democrats go from here.

If they have even one quarter of a brain - and personally I have my doubts about that! - they need to adopt what, in football, is referred to as a "bend-but-don't-break" strategy. They are going to have to let the Republicans have some of the things they want - and I would recommend that those things include the Keystone XL pipeline (possibly with the stipulation that every single solitary drop of the oil that runs through it remains on U.S. soil) and a cut in the corporate tax rate. But they need to come out and let it be known, in no uncertain terms, that if the GOP tries to go for any "tax reform" that includes any tax increase on low-income Americans, or any wingnut anti-contraception etc. bills,, that they will be "dead on arrival" via a filibuster.

The Dems should also dump Harry Reid as minority leader, and replace him with Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT).

A key part of the Progressive doctrine is avoidance of an AGW disaster. If the Keystone XL pipeline passes, the party will fracture. Cutting corproate taxes, without an offset of substantial impact, is also off the table.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The Keystone Pipeline is dedicated to transferring expensive and dangerous oil from Alberta tar sands to ports in Texas for export abroad. That's what it's for, and that's what it will remain for.

A corporate tax rate cut is doable if loopholes are closed. The Republicans have not and will not agree to this.

Leahy will not be elected as leader.

There will be nothing accomplished in the new congress. That's what the people voted for, and that's what they will get. Period.

I agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

It likely will be in the states that the Tea Party controls.

Pennsylvania just kicked out its "Tea Party" Governor. I expect our "Tea Party" Senator to get the boot next. He earned my "not voting for you" vote a while back--his vote FOR keeping the Patriot Act & NSA stuff going on.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

In the technological sense, you're right. From the social sense, not so much. As social animals, we haven't changed all that much since our hunter-gatherer days. Occasionally, we build new social structures, and they last (cities for example), but often we experiment and just move on. The post-WWII era was an experiment in a more equal economy. Apparently, we decided it didn't cut it ... for now at least. I suspect the New Prophets will have a different opinion.



No, the people in charge are moving the world just the way they wish. The changes you focus on so intently are having no impact on that, except to exacerbate the problem. Your generation has a cultural link you share, but it's filtered through the technology that makes it less powerful in the real world. Social media is not social action, but you seem to believe it should be. Sorry, it won't happen. The PTB have no reason to pander to you. You are no threat to them, and they are getting most of what they want right now.



I'll respond with 1) maybe the world we imagined was foolish, but the one you want is no better, 2) the emerging world isn't the one you think is happening , except in the virtual sense. I doubt you can live on virtual food and live in virtual houses, 3) you're right that it's you turn to screw up, and you'll have to answer for that. You're already behind the 8-ball, and fighting hard to stay there.

I think that technology influences the social aspect in ways that you don't quite get. For instance. You like gun control, right? Okay, that's great and all, but in another 10 years, at home 3D printers are probably going to be very possible. That kinda invalidates all attempts at possible control at all. Why pass a law that only has the potential to be valid for a few years?

It's not about liking it or not, it's about accepting what's even possible. It doesn't matter if the ideas were good or bad in a vacuum, it's about what actually works in the existent environment. By the time we're at the end of the 1T, we'll probably be clueless as to what the world is at that point, too. I hope we remember what this is like and bow out gracefully. I doubt it, but I hope that's the case.

As to the material world... You guys have done positively nothing to assist people or fairly distribute means of getting the things they need, and in fact made it a hellish over competition. Whatever we wind up doing, it will at least more likely to be workable in the emerging world and with existential experience from what it's like to navigate the current world as it exists for a template of what we don't want. Boomers can't do either and they aim for a world that is incompatible with the world that exists and is emerging, and that's just a recipe for disaster.

Kepi, awhile back on a gun control thread, I pointed out ways to circumvent gun control without 3D printers. This seemed to have caused cognitive dissonance-I think people failed to do their homework or think things through.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Kepi, awhile back on a gun control thread, I pointed out ways to circumvent gun control without 3D printers. This seemed to have caused cognitive dissonance-I think people failed to do their homework or think things through.

Anyone opposed to gun control, has got some cognitive dissonance going.

Originally Posted by Kepi

I think that technology influences the social aspect in ways that you don't quite get. For instance. You like gun control, right? Okay, that's great and all, but in another 10 years, at home 3D printers are probably going to be very possible. That kinda invalidates all attempts at possible control at all. Why pass a law that only has the potential to be valid for a few years?

It's not about liking it or not, it's about accepting what's even possible. It doesn't matter if the ideas were good or bad in a vacuum, it's about what actually works in the existent environment. By the time we're at the end of the 1T, we'll probably be clueless as to what the world is at that point, too. I hope we remember what this is like and bow out gracefully. I doubt it, but I hope that's the case.

As to the material world... You guys have done positively nothing to assist people or fairly distribute means of getting the things they need, and in fact made it a hellish over competition. Whatever we wind up doing, it will at least more likely to be workable in the emerging world and with existential experience from what it's like to navigate the current world as it exists for a template of what we don't want. Boomers can't do either and they aim for a world that is incompatible with the world that exists and is emerging, and that's just a recipe for disaster.

Blue Boomers like me don't identify with Red Boomers like the W.Bush's and Gingrich's at all. So we have trouble with your attribution of "you guys" to us. We had nothing to do with what the Republicans did; we opposed it as best we could.

"You" Millennials and X/Yers have no power at all now, because power still flows from the ballot box and the corporate board rooms. You do not vote, so you have no voice in politics. And you don't own corporations yet, so you have no voice there either. Looks like you are out of luck.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Blue Boomers like me don't identify with Red Boomers like the W.Bush's and Gingrich's at all. So we have trouble with your attribution of "you guys" to us. We had nothing to do with what the Republicans did; we opposed it as best we could.

"You" Millennials and X/Yers have no power at all now, because power still flows from the ballot box and the corporate board rooms. You do not vote, so you have no voice in politics. And you don't own corporations yet, so you have no voice there either. Looks like you are out of luck.

You know which box tends to get opened after the ballot box and soap box fail right? That's called the ammo box.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Pennsylvania just kicked out its "Tea Party" Governor. I expect our "Tea Party" Senator to get the boot next. He earned my "not voting for you" vote a while back--his vote FOR keeping the Patriot Act & NSA stuff going on.

That's good indeed, but what can you say about blue states like MA, MD and IL who kicked out Democratic governors and put in Tea Party Republicans?

America is a sad case. Even a break-up into red and blue states is useless now.

Originally Posted by Danilynn

You know which box tends to get opened after the ballot box and soap box fail right? That's called the ammo box.

2025, here we come!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

2025, here we come!

2015 would work better. I'd rather be 40 than 50 when it kicks off. At least that way my kids aren't the cannon fodder, For them I would gladly don combat boots again to keep them out of the line of fire.

Originally Posted by Danilynn

2015 would work better. I'd rather be 40 than 50 when it kicks off. At least that way my kids aren't the cannon fodder, For them I would gladly don combat boots again to keep them out of the line of fire.

Might work better, but I have the cosmic scoop on what will happen when!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Might work better, but I have the cosmic scoop on what will happen when!

regardless of when I will not allow my kids to be cannon fodder. No matter how old I may be, as long as I am breathing and walking I will take their place. I brought them in this world and I made a promise I intend to keep, which I will protect them no matter the personal cost as long as I breathe.

We no longer have a democracy. We have an aristocratic-corporatist order. Were I successful as a writer and holding the views that I hold, I would be out of America.

JOKE: There's a new operation that does not even require surgery. It's called a "Limbaugh-tomy". One loses one's conscience, empathy, and capacity for critical thinking and develops a slavish adulation for the rich-and-powerful.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

We no longer have a democracy. We have an aristocratic-corporatist order. Were I successful as a writer and holding the views that I hold, I would be out of America.

JOKE: There's a new operation that does not even require surgery. It's called a "Limbaugh-tomy". One loses one's conscience, empathy, and capacity for critical thinking and develops a slavish adulation for the rich-and-powerful.

I think it has some side effects. You will look like this:



and the ability to channel Rove.

Originally Posted by teh wikis

In his palace on the desert planet Tatooine, he keeps a host of entertainers at his disposal: slaves, droids and alien creatures. Jabba has a grim sense of humour, an insatiable appetite, and affinities for gambling, slave girls, and torture.

Originally Posted by Danilynn

regardless of when I will not allow my kids to be cannon fodder. No matter how old I may be, as long as I am breathing and walking I will take their place. I brought them in this world and I made a promise I intend to keep, which I will protect them no matter the personal cost as long as I breathe.

The enemies of the US and The West love these types of debates.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

The problem isn't the ID itself, but the documents you need to get one. The poor and elderly are most likely to lack a birth certificate, and many IDs require a certified copy in any case. Getting one and paying for it is the issue. Once you have one, you can get more any time you need one.

If the issue of illegal voting was really an issue, I wouldn't be so negative about this ... but it's not.

I seems that Alabama is at least trying to address the documentation concern.

* The Secretary of State’s office has entered an agreement with the Alabama Department of Public Health whereby a free birth or marriage certificate will be provided to the processing or issuing agent when a voter needs one of these documents in order to obtain a free Alabama photo voter ID card. This certificate is for voting purposes only, is provided electronically, and cannot be used for any other purpose.