Unless we apply the same consideration to people not our "own," we are no better than foreign terrorists.Originally Posted by Classic-X'er
The only people more cruel, ignorant and intolerant than American Republicans, are Middle Eastern fanatics.
Humanity does not depend upon people being Americans. In view of what ISIS does, I can see no ethical difference between an ISIS butcher beheading an American and an ISIS butcher beheading a Yazidi.
Torture is wrong. Murder is wrong. Such are moral absolutes.
I see something very wrong with people who think that it is acceptable to
(1) threaten bodily harm to loved ones of terror suspects
(2) stick someone in a container that resembles a coffin
(3) threaten death, sexual assault (that is, rape), or severe bodily injury
(4) waterboard
(5) compel nudity
(6) slam someone into a wall
(7) deprive people of sleep
If a gangster did such things to collect a gambling debt or to force the collection of interest through loan-sharking, then would you consider such acceptable?
One must be cruel to do any of these deeds. Cruelty learned in dealing with terror suspects can easily be put to use in doing much the same to anyone who might become a pariah due to his race, ethnicity, religion, national origin, or political views. Support for these crimes is strong among Republicans. In view of our majority-of-a-majority pattern of government, what Democrats believe matters little.
When the economy goes sour and the government starts finding scapegoats instead of solutions, then "enemies of prosperity" might be the American equivalent of "enemies of the people" in the old Soviet Union.
(Of course I am not going to let Democrats off the hook for believing that torture is acceptable).
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Awhile back, I came across something suprising online. This is in regards to outreach by the Republican party. To summarize, the advisor told Republicans that to get the support of a demographic group, they must actively court that group. And part of the court ship involves going out of your way to show respect for them...indeed, to adulate that group. (This is something that Democrats haven't done for blue collar workers or Veterans for a long, long time).
During the recent election, the Democrats failed to court the most important demographic of all-the Millenials.
Last edited by TimWalker; 12-18-2014 at 11:08 AM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_triad
If cruelty toward animals like dogs and cats can lead to cruelty to humans, then cruelty to despised foreigners can easily lead to cruelty toward Americans that one is goaded to punish. The gap is much shorter between torturing an Arab and torturing an American who has the 'wrong' sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, partisan affiliation, or political beliefs.
It is not enough to stand up for one's own rights. One must stand up for the dignity of others.
Martin Niemöller: "First they came for the Socialists..."
Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.
Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007392
Martin Niemöller, a prominent Protestant pastor who opposed the Nazi regime. He spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. Germany, 1937.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 12-18-2014 at 02:51 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
How much of your own dignity are you willing to sacrifice for their benefit and the preservation of their so-called dignity? How much dignity does a foreign piece of sh*t terrorist who's primary goal in life is to murder people have in your opinion? I don't see very much dignity in what they do or in the way that they treat and view the lives of those who oppose and disagree with them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_triad
If cruelty toward animals like dogs and cats can lead to cruelty to humans, then cruelty to despised foreigners can easily lead to cruelty toward Americans that one is goaded to punish. The gap is much shorter between torturing an Arab and torturing an American who has the 'wrong' sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, partisan affiliation, or political beliefs.
It is not enough to stand up for one's own rights. One must stand up for the dignity of others.
Martin Niemöller: "First they came for the Socialists..."
Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.
Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007392
Martin Niemöller, a prominent Protestant pastor who opposed the Nazi regime. He spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. Germany, 1937.
One must be cruel or morally justified to do those deeds.
The issue is not the dignity of a terrorist; it is our dignity as a nation that matters far more. If we Americans torture, then we debase ourselves as a nation.
I don't give a damn about the terrorist. I have more concern with the fairness of the judicial process and with non-harm to innocent persons. For getting critical information about future terrorist acts? The schmuck who gets caught knows no more than his handlers want him to know. Getting confessions? Torture is infamous for getting false confessions, as demonstrated in the absurd confessions that led to "ten years imprisonment without the right to correspondence" which as a rule was followed with secretive execution. People dedicated to Communism from before the Bolshevik Revolution admitted to being spies for the armed forces of capitalist countries and plotting 'counter-revolution'. Jesse Ventura said of waterboarding that if he were subjected to it he could be induced to confess to involvement in the Tate-LaBianca murders (Charles Manson's cult did those killings).
What if one got his hands on Osama bin Laden? Such would have been impractical or impossible. Seal Team 6 was able to do an underworld-style hit upon him because the CIA followed his couriers. Seal Team 6 also left with his body and the contents of his computer files. Computer files need not be waterboarded to get data.
Without adjudication for guilt, torture is inexcusable as punishment before conviction. For good reason, rule of law precludes the use of testimony obtained through torture. But even for the guilty, torture is 'cruel and unusual punishment'. Of course there are ways to trick suspected terrorists into exposing their deeds and connections, and those must be excused.
Torture does not get valid information. Bad as it is to the wretch who endures it, it does far more harm to the system. It generally debases life. It scares people from acting on ethical principles and replaces conscience with fear. It trains people to treat others callously for violating any core value of the cult, syndicate, or Party.
I have no idea how much courage I would have in facing down tyranny, especially if such put my survival and health at risk. It is far easier to resist fascist trends in America (and fascism is basically Bolshevik techniques in the service of a reactionary agenda) today than when the brutal system is already entrenched. I fear what America seems to be becoming. I see little courage among elected Republicans who could easily condemn torture of the Rove-Cheney-Bush Administration. (John McCain is a clear exception). It would be simple enough for any elected Republican to say without equivocation that torture is wrong, that the Rove-Cheney-Bush Administration has no valid excuses for what it did, and that he would never order, condone, or cover up torture. In a few years torture could be the fate of people who strike against an employer, who believe the wrong religion, who sing songs that mock the ideological or economic orthodoxy, who heckle Republicans, or who teach or preach things contrary to the official ideology when such economic sanctions against 'enemies of the people' (a Stalinist term) lack the desired efficiency in winning compliance.
...In view of the polls that suggest that a near-majority of Americans and a majority of the dominant political party believe torture acceptable gives me cause to doubt whether I am in the right country. If we are a nation of Lotus Eaters who look out only for our own gain and indulgence, then we have sacrificed the principles upon which this country was established.
Cruel -- but deluded of the moral justification for unconscionable deeds. Torture is the way of the tyrant, the leader who debases life to fear, reduces liberty to subjection, and degrades the pursuit of happiness to the avoidance of pain. What moral justification can you give for tyranny?One must be cruel or morally justified to do those deeds.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
The only moral justification that I could give tyranny is the moral justification to severely counter, ruthlessly engage and essentially destroy it.
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER! Torture is wrong no matter what. TORTURE IS WRONG NO MATTER WHAT.
There is no justification for torture, none, zero, nil, zilch, nada.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
That makes absolutely no sense at all. Please do not post while under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or FoX "News".
Last edited by pbrower2a; 12-19-2014 at 12:19 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Lawrence Kohlberg established a well-recognized theory of moral development in which people get to different levels either of expression or behavior from the infantile (out for immediate gratification and nothing else) to a very high standard of universal principles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawren...al_development
Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
(How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation
(What's in it for me?)
(Paying for a benefit)
Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
(Social norms)
(The good boy/girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
(Law and order morality)
Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles
(Principled conscience)
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Thank you. I was thinking about these stages the other day but I don't think I'd seen it in writing since college.
A narrow focus on the tolerance for torture and tyranny might apply here.
Suffice to say, Level 1 is what one expects of tyrants, whether the fictional Simon Legree or a real Josef Stalin, and gangsters. One has a heavy reliance upon punishment and few rewards.
Level 2 is for corrupt politicians, confidence artists, dishonest businessmen, and petty crooks. A warning: many of the people operating at this level pretend to be operating at a much higher level of morals. Ferdinand Marcos was one of these; Richard Cheney and Karl Rove seem to fit here. As fictional examples look at George Babbitt and J R Ewing. The typical Internet troll is here.
Level 3 is the norm for the upper part of K-12 education and most college fraternities and sororities. Wal*Mart culture operates here. Many people are perfectly happy at this level -- so long as they know their places, make no waves, and fail to show any creativity or imagination. But be a pariah or be seen as 'snooty', and you will not fit in. The American political and economic order seems to love to have most people operating at this level. It's good for businesses from retailing to manufacturing and banking... and it is good for pushing lucrative if unimaginative 'prolefeed' like pedestrian television, sports, and music.
Level 4 does not mean brutal law enforcement (which would be Level 2); it understands the reasons to some extent of why legal codes are what they are. It can mitigate disputes among people of Level 3, and it might mitigate some of the harsh treatment of pariahs. It typically protects some diversity. One expects such people as military officers, attorneys, physicians, teachers, scientists, teachers, clergy, engineers, and accountants to operate at this level or higher. More is demanded, but in return comes more freedom of self-assertion.
Level 5 understands the rules behind the rules and may have a role in making them. This may be the best place to live, and it is rare even in public life even if it is faked. This is where judges, business executives, senior military officers, and high-profile politicians ideally operate. The philosopher-king ideal of Plato is here. Benjamin Franklin, Bertrand Russell, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Abraham Lincoln are examples. Unfortunately many people who style themselves here (let us say Pat Robertson) act at a much level... one must be wary.
Level 6? Martin Luther King, Jr. Francis of Assisi. Mohandas Gandhi.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
That's your liberal belief when you have nothing of value at stake.
The Nazi's were ruthlessly killed and systematically destroyed by moral justification during the war and then hunted down, apprehended, legally tried, convicted and executed by it afterwards.
Torture is a crime -- and a blunder. It is reliable only as a means of breaking someone down -- as if that were a desirable end.
Maybe if you read what I posted about Lawrence Kohlberg and his levels of moral development... one undeniable aspect of moral maturity is the willing to make sacrifices, significantly among those not getting what one immediately wants. It might be satisfying to hear some evil-doer shriek in pain -- but that solves nothing.
Arguably the worst person ever executed by hanging was Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the highest-ranking survivor of the Nazi "security" apparatus, the highest-ranking figure of the concentration (and extermination) camp system. Did the Allies torture him? NO! It was enough that he would be exposed for issuing criminal orders of mass murder.
...We liberals have much at stake -- rule of law, due process, free and competitive elections, and a government that in fact serves people instead of enriching a few plutocrats and potentates at the expense of us all.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Level 5 is associated with totalitarianism. Kiff made the mistake of using these levels as an example to establish her moral dominance and beliefs above mine. Unfortunately, she was to clueless or inexperienced to recognize the moral views and opinions of a level 6.
Wrong. Level 1 is associated with the despot who sees himself as the rightful object of adulation and that anyone who fails to recognize his greatness deserves to be tortured and killed. Think of Saddam Hussein. Level 2 in a totalitarian or despotic order is the level of the ethical void of the immediate underlings of the despot or tyrant -- and brutal enforcers. Level 3 is only as good as the system as a whole.
What looks like Level 4 or higher in a dictatorial, tyrannical, or despotic order is a collection of poseurs. Real persons in Level 4 or higher become political prisoners, refugees, or martyrs because the system cannot tolerate them. Level 6 is extremely rare in any society. Asking Level 6 behavior from anyone is asking far too much -- anywhere.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
As far as moral development goes, level 1 is the K-12 level. Level 2 is the early adult level. Level 3 is the established adult level. Like Kiff, you're a typical self righteous liberal who believes their moral views and positions are supreme and should be embraced and adopted by all with the use of law.
Last edited by Classic-X'er; 12-19-2014 at 06:26 PM.
Would it be wrong if your mothers life was on the line and it was being used to save her?
for me. Not at all.
Psalm 91
Nothing justifies torture. Nothing. I don't fucking care if it could save a million people, TORTURE IS WRONG BECAUSE IT IS WRONG, PERIOD. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a monster.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Torturing does not save anyone. It doesn't work.
I suggest that we take this conversation about children's moral development to a thread that I have created to discuss the topic:
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...815#post517815
I brought it up here because I thought that the moral infantility of many Americans is relevant to the topic of the 2016 election. Should mass depravity contribute to catastrophic politics in America, then the tendencies are built into American family life, mass media, religiosity, and other aspects which no political figure could have created. Tendencies that have coarsened political life are best discussed in that thread.
No country whose people is morally depraved can maintain its liberty; it will invariably vote for brutes. Democracies face enough danger from demagogues who make wild and contradictory promises yet conceal that they will treat savagely those either opposed to them or not in strong-enough support. But if people want government to abuse people unlike them and so vote -- that is how democracy works. If you shoot yourself in the heart you will die because such is how the body works.
I fail to see how mass support for or acquiescence in torture can result in anything other than political brutality.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 12-19-2014 at 11:54 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
So, you'd be willing to sacrifice a million lives based on your own belief?
