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Thread: The 2016 Election will be awful. - Page 28







Post#676 at 02-18-2015 02:12 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
... I'm not so sure war is in our genes. It's mostly an invention of civilization.
Even chimpanzees form alliances and fight battles ... some to the death. That seems to make warring a pretty primal activity to me
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#677 at 02-18-2015 02:58 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Even chimpanzees form alliances and fight battles ... some to the death. That seems to make warring a pretty primal activity to me
I agree with your assessment. It seems to me that 'war' at some level( band, tribe, nation, etc) has been part of the human condition throughtout history.







Post#678 at 02-18-2015 03:35 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
I agree with your assessment. It seems to me that 'war' at some level( band, tribe, nation, etc) has been part of the human condition throughout history.
That makes permanent peace very difficult. Frankly, I'm not sure we're up to it. We're not becoming less lethal with time. With savagery and warring on the upswing at the moment, I hope we'll survive to commiserate about this when cooler heads prevail. If history is a guide, that will be a temporary respite before the next round. Breaking the cycle is the challenge. I doubt I'll live to see it.

The most peaceful period in my life was the pre-Vietnam Cold War. That's sad.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#679 at 02-18-2015 04:16 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
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Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
I agree with your assessment. It seems to me that 'war' at some level( band, tribe, nation, etc) has been part of the human condition throughtout history.
And it also seems that along with our perpetual warlike nature, there always seems to be a sub culture of utopians who believe Man can be perfected. Making Man a race of peaceniks and perfect upstanding citizens. In that utopia there are no innate criminals and no monstrous tyrants. Then there is reality.







Post#680 at 02-18-2015 05:35 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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So long as Hillary Clinton is the nominee, the Republican Party will be shut out of the Presidency.

Eleven states have been polled, and a pattern has emerged: 2016 will look at best TO Republicans like a repeat of 2012.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#681 at 02-18-2015 06:56 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
So long as Hillary Clinton is the nominee, the Republican Party will be shut out of the Presidency.

Eleven states have been polled, and a pattern has emerged: 2016 will look at best TO Republicans like a repeat of 2012.
I agree. The GOP's short list are all clowns.







Post#682 at 02-18-2015 08:58 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
And it also seems that along with our perpetual warlike nature, there always seems to be a sub culture of utopians who believe Man can be perfected. Making Man a race of peaceniks and perfect upstanding citizens. In that utopia there are no innate criminals and no monstrous tyrants. Then there is reality.
It seems to me that it is almost surely a fact that xenophobia is baked into our genes. Going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years into our background as a species, doesn't it seem inevitable that anyone "different" would inspire fear? And in periods of scarcity (which had to be most of the time then) the extended families, bands and tribes would want to husband their resources?

And, as many of us know, much anger is based ultimately on fear.

Finally, Utopians are probably the most dangerous folks on the planet. Are not religious folks utopians at last? And the more fanatic they are, the more utopian? The Thousand Year Reich? Etc.

I have very little confidence that this few years we've had at perfecting civilization (say, the last 600 or so years?) is enough to overcome our hidden, subconscious hostility and combativeness.
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#683 at 02-19-2015 01:29 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
It seems to me that it is almost surely a fact that xenophobia is baked into our genes. Going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years into our background as a species, doesn't it seem inevitable that anyone "different" would inspire fear? And in periods of scarcity (which had to be most of the time then) the extended families, bands and tribes would want to husband their resources?

And, as many of us know, much anger is based ultimately on fear.

Finally, Utopians are probably the most dangerous folks on the planet. Are not religious folks utopians at last? And the more fanatic they are, the more utopian? The Thousand Year Reich? Etc.

I have very little confidence that this few years we've had at perfecting civilization (say, the last 600 or so years?) is enough to overcome our hidden, subconscious hostility and combativeness.
I think the best antidote for "us-versus-them" is to raise people so that their conception of "us" is as large as possible, ideally humanity as a whole. I think the great ancient Chinese reformer Mozi had a good inkling of this when he said that everyone deserves our empathy equally, it should not be limited by how close we are to others.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#684 at 02-19-2015 11:13 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
It seems to me that it is almost surely a fact that xenophobia is baked into our genes. Going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years into our background as a species, doesn't it seem inevitable that anyone "different" would inspire fear? And in periods of scarcity (which had to be most of the time then) the extended families, bands and tribes would want to husband their resources?
But if we are secure enough that life gets insipid... then maybe we can recognize that the folk music of pre-Columbian tradition from Peru is very good. Or that we can learn something from the Buddha. Or that people don't need Jesus to live honorable lives. Or that curry adds a strong an tempting flavor to food. That is the difference between attending the University of California at Berkeley... and having strong ties to a God-awful place like southeastern Kentucky.

And, as many of us know, much anger is based ultimately on fear.
Fear and resentment. The rich-and-powerful of the time always have the fear that people dissatisfied with their lives will turn on the rich-and-powerful, so they love to inculcate xenophobia, especially against those who have no bonds to the rich-and-powerful. Thus racism, religious bigotry, and anti-intellectualism get anonymous sponsorship from the economic and political elites of many countries in hard times.

Finally, Utopians are probably the most dangerous folks on the planet. Are not religious folks utopians at last? And the more fanatic they are, the more utopian? The Thousand Year Reich? Etc.
Utopian groups that rely upon the goodness of people and have some moral precepts behind them find that they aren't for everyone, and they usually fall apart when the children show that they can never share the enthusiasm of their parents. A utopian community in New York expelled John Guiteau, a religious nutter, as "John, Get Out". Guiteau would get involved in politics, and when he did not get his way he shot the President (John Garfield) whom he faulted for 'betraying' him.

The utopian colonies that last longest are those that must replenish themselves with outsiders who adapt to their ways -- monastic orders.

I have very little confidence that this few years we've had at perfecting civilization (say, the last 600 or so years?) is enough to overcome our hidden, subconscious hostility and combativeness.
For good reason the educated elite insisted (at least until 50 or so years ago) that their kids learn Latin. The discipline necessary for using cases for substantives and verbs without subject pronouns? Such isn't useful. Modern Russian does much the same, and it is at least useful in reading a rich literature. Making impressive terms for technical concepts in law or science? See also German. Understanding the Latin Mass? Only if one is a Catholic, and the Catholic Church has authorized masses in the popular language.

Ancient Greece had the better philosophical texts, and its language was even more complicated.

It's simpler than that. Rome was the final stage of Classical civilization, and it fcuked up badly. There were plenty of cautionary tales about demagoguery (a bane of a Republic with some democratic tendencies) and despotism (often a consequence of demagoguery, either with demagogues betraying the people that they seduced or with military leaders who overthrew the demagogues and suppressed the democracy that allowed a demagogue to flourish) -- and the injustice of governments that reject constitutional constraints upon blood-letting.

We may be finding out the hard way as we never did before in America. I shall show this in my next post.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#685 at 02-19-2015 11:30 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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South Carolina is not a microcosm of America (Thank God!), but South Carolina Republicans are close to a microcosm of American reactionaries. One theme of American reactionaries is the rejection of science in favor of faith:

PPP's first poll of South Carolina Republicans for 2016 finds Jeb Bush and Scott Walker at the top of the heap- and GOP voters very cool toward the prospect of a Lindsey Graham candidacy.

Bush leads with 19% to 18% for Walker with Graham and Ben Carson tied for 3rd at 13% and Mike Huckabee also in double digits at 12%. Chris Christie at 7%, Rand Paul at 5%, and Ted Cruz and Rick Perry at 3% round out the field.

...

Republican primary voters in South Carolina are exceedingly conservative on a host of issues. Only 31% believe in global warming, just 34% believe in evolution, and 62% support establishing Christianity as the national religion.

There's a big divide in who voters support based on their opinions about global warming. Among voters who don't believe in it, Walker leads Bush 29/14. But among voters who do believe in global warming, Bush leads Walker 27/3. Those splits mirror the divide based on whether voters consider themselves Tea Partiers or not- those who do support Walker over Bush 32/11, while those who don't favor Bush over Walker 22/16.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/m...sc-1.html#more
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#686 at 02-19-2015 02:48 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I think the best antidote for "us-versus-them" is to raise people so that their conception of "us" is as large as possible, ideally humanity as a whole. I think the great ancient Chinese reformer Mozi had a good inkling of this when he said that everyone deserves our empathy equally, it should not be limited by how close we are to others.
This is true but hard. We learn empathy very young, and mostly at home. For some of us, that's a good thing, but others learn hate or indifference, neither of which is a sound basis for empathetic behavior. It doesn't take a genius to look at the long trend lines of the many feuds in the world to know that fear and hate are very strong drivers. As the world shrinks, I see more not less conflict. I hope that's a temporary thing, but fear it's not.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#687 at 02-19-2015 04:05 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
This is true but hard. We learn empathy very young, and mostly at home. For some of us, that's a good thing, but others learn hate or indifference, neither of which is a sound basis for empathetic behavior. It doesn't take a genius to look at the long trend lines of the many feuds in the world to know that fear and hate are very strong drivers. As the world shrinks, I see more not less conflict. I hope that's a temporary thing, but fear it's not.
What is this "world shrinkage" of which you speak? In reality, the opposite is happening.







Post#688 at 02-19-2015 09:15 PM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
What is this "world shrinkage" of which you speak? In reality, the opposite is happening.
Got a problem here. If both parties can choose their own authority, how do they negotiate a resolution ever? There's just two parties each looking after their own, and even if they get to pick and choose their own legal tradition, there's no one there to render judgement that isn't an intrinsically interested party.

So let's play this out, right? Let's say that I, as an electronic cigarette user, choose a system as a rule that has no rules on these items because they don't cause harm, but let's say my neighbor chooses to abide by a tradition which assigns all matter transference, even incidental transference, as a transgression. Right? So neighbor is precisely the sort of person who you'd expect would choose that sort of tradition. He's a total nitpick. So he puts up some filters to catch particulate in the air, runs them through a mass spectrometer and finds elevated levels of propylene glycol have been passing through his yard and he expects putative measures be taken against me (because of course he does).

Now from my tradition's standpoint, this is irrelevant. From his, I'm clearly guilty. So what do you do when everyone can pick their own legal tradition, and there's no third party to ignore either sides interests?

Oh, also, I want to know how that guy knows that we had a decentralized world order prior to recorded human history because it was prior to recorded human history.
Last edited by Kepi; 02-19-2015 at 09:17 PM.







Post#689 at 02-19-2015 10:18 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
However if you are wrong (and it turns out the Nietzche's forecasts for the 22nd and 23rd centuries end up being correct), the Lastmen and Atomized Men of our current era (which killed God) will go down in flames, and, the Ubermench will rule. So maybe CH is not completely wrong even though we may disagree with some of his particulars.
That's not a correct interpretation of Nietzsche, though. He leans somewhat in Cynic's direction, but not very far. The Superman/Overman was not the misinterpreted Nazi ideal of the survivor race, but a new kind of human who is wise and fearless. The killing of God was the death of the phony myth of a God to which weak people must obey, worship and defer to. The new human does not need such a God, but finds the spirit of Zarathustra within. Nietzsche was a prophet of the new age, of which the new age movement is the unfolding fulfillment.

I may be wrong about the peace movement, and I have been overoptimistic in some of my predictions-- despite getting so many big things right, and despite being an expert predictor of war and peace. But the pattern is clear: Uranus-Pluto conjunctions indicate the beginning or "new moon" of a revolutionary movement that transforms society, a movement that reaches its peak at the opposition or full moon (when Uranus on the opposite of the Earth to Pluto). So it has been in modern and pre-modern history, the times when people have engaged in such movements. See the dates and the record of events here. So it will be again, and how transformative it is will be up to us to work out (and play out). Our revolution began in the sixties, and the project of our time is to bring into full flower the ideals, movements and purposes that were born in that great, beautiful and turbulent awakening.

Revolutions also release tyranny, at least in the short run. So in our current stage of evolution and growth as a "species," we have not been able to avoid these pitfalls. So, in this era, when the revolutionary cycle that began in the mid-1960s is coming into play (Uranus square (first quarter phase) Pluto), we've seen things like people rising up for freedom in Syria, which had the effect of opening up the territory further to the new Islamic Caliphate: the Nazis of our 4T. But the Nazis did not bring into being the "socialist" revolution; the post-WWII Europeans and even the thirties' and sixties' Americans did that. The jihadists are going absolutely nowhere with their evil betrayal of humanity.

We can't go entirely by what has been in the past; life grows and evolves. That is its meaning and value. We have learned the ways of peace in a lot of places, and we will learn further. Retrograde expressions like George W. Bush's New American Century imperialism, the Nazis, and the Islamic jihadists, are all merely diversions. Nothing is guaranteed, but the vector of life is certain. It is our dharma, our destiny, our task and our job to bring forth peace, beauty, creativity and love. We either do our job, or we don't. As a prophet of the current revolutionary cycle, MLK Jr., said, "the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." And so it will.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#690 at 02-19-2015 10:38 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
It seems to me that it is almost surely a fact that xenophobia is baked into our genes. Going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years into our background as a species, doesn't it seem inevitable that anyone "different" would inspire fear? And in periods of scarcity (which had to be most of the time then) the extended families, bands and tribes would want to husband their resources?

And, as many of us know, much anger is based ultimately on fear.

Finally, Utopians are probably the most dangerous folks on the planet. Are not religious folks utopians at last? And the more fanatic they are, the more utopian? The Thousand Year Reich? Etc.

I have very little confidence that this few years we've had at perfecting civilization (say, the last 600 or so years?) is enough to overcome our hidden, subconscious hostility and combativeness.
First, why do some of us feel very little zenophobia?

Second, fear is a basic instinct, but how it is expressed varies greatly. Zenophobia is just one kind of fear, so it can't be made equal to fear itself.

The course of human evolution is to decrease fear and increase wisdom.

Civilization and the perfecting of it has lasted for well over 5000 years now, not 600.

Utopians are dangerous, because they believe no development is needed to achieve the ideal. It can be just immediately and completely allowed (libertarians, anarchists) or imposed (communists, Nazis, etc.).
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#691 at 02-19-2015 10:52 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
Got a problem here. If both parties can choose their own authority, how do they negotiate a resolution ever? There's just two parties each looking after their own, and even if they get to pick and choose their own legal tradition, there's no one there to render judgement that isn't an intrinsically interested party.

So let's play this out, right? Let's say that I, as an electronic cigarette user, choose a system as a rule that has no rules on these items because they don't cause harm, but let's say my neighbor chooses to abide by a tradition which assigns all matter transference, even incidental transference, as a transgression. Right? So neighbor is precisely the sort of person who you'd expect would choose that sort of tradition. He's a total nitpick. So he puts up some filters to catch particulate in the air, runs them through a mass spectrometer and finds elevated levels of propylene glycol have been passing through his yard and he expects putative measures be taken against me (because of course he does).

Now from my tradition's standpoint, this is irrelevant. From his, I'm clearly guilty. So what do you do when everyone can pick their own legal tradition, and there's no third party to ignore either sides interests?

Oh, also, I want to know how that guy knows that we had a decentralized world order prior to recorded human history because it was prior to recorded human history.
Points well taken.

The "shrinking world" of our time that Marx and Lennon refers to does not as I see it refer to authority systems, or whether we are centralized or not, but merely that we are connected closely together all over the world in ways never seen before.

Copperfield's anarchism is not applicable to reality. We are not mere individuals who can just choose everything we want. We need to live and work together. Law cannot be merely chosen on our whim as long as we are not spiritually evolved enough to choose wisely. Law exists because we are not so evolved, and people do bad things if left to their own devices. And folks like Copperfield see no use for any kind of spirituality, which is the only hope that such anarchism and individualism could ever work. Organization of some kind is needed and useful. Trust is nice, but is not warranted in many cases.

So Gevers' decentralization may be a trend of our time, and may offer some promise for a more creative society, but it cannot work in our age without centralization too; a mixed and combined approach is needed.

Anarchism and excess decentralization allows greedy people to rule over us, as is well demonstrated by the results of deregulation over the last 35 years of Reaganomics and free market ideology. Excess centralization also allows greedy and powerful people to dominate too. Both impart greater violence. Balance and appropriate combination is needed, rather than absolute and immediate utopian schemes.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#692 at 02-19-2015 11:04 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
...
So Gevers' decentralization may be a trend of our time, and may offer some promise for a more creative society, but it cannot work in our age without centralization too; a mixed and combined approach is needed.
There is no such thing as a "trend", silly. Nothing is permanent , nor is anything linear.

Anarchism and excess decentralization allows greedy people to rule over us, as is well demonstrated by the results of deregulation over the last 35 years of Reaganomics and free market ideology.
Yeah, and the same for a new Dark Age, which will happen sometime in the future at some point.

Excess centralization also allows greedy and powerful people to dominate too. Both impart greater violence. Balance and appropriate combination is needed, rather than absolute and immediate utopian schemes.
Yeah, we'll get some more of that in the future as well. Cycles of all sorts happen due to overshoot. We got this 4T because financial speculation and wealth inequality overshot. Those Cali dock workers are gonna put the fuck to this globalization stuff. I love those pics of all those ships piled up off y'alls coast.

The Mideast is also due for some overshoot correction. There's too many young men over there. Once the oil revenue dries out, some war will happen that will fix that problem.

CO2 overshoot and global climate weirding might fix other overshoot problems as well. The earth and hardy creatures like roaches and rats will be around for the duration. Humans? Not so sure.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#693 at 02-20-2015 01:53 AM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Sure, fighting/territoriality is in our genes, so to speak, and in that of most larger animals; although really according to Rupert Sheldrake it is more a matter of learned habits that determines these things, and genes are "over-rated."
Rupert Sheldrake knows piss-all about biology. Every time he has attempted to "educate" biologists about their speciality, he has had his ignorant ass handed to him.

Civilization is what caused it to "scale up" and make it organized, and thus it became "war."

But we can learn better; it's what the sixties revolution is all about. It's the cycle of revolution; by its end at the turn of the 22nd century, we may have learned quite a bit about the ways of peace, if the revolution is carried through. Much to the dismay of the cynic heroes I'm sure.







Post#694 at 02-20-2015 09:53 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
What is this "world shrinkage" of which you speak? In reality, the opposite is happening.
When I know I can have a video conference with participants from literally anywhere, the concept of a distant world seems pretty bogus. That doesn't mean that any of the participants will agree with any of the others, or even share a common point or reference. All it means is the buffers of time and distance are gone, and things that took days or even years in the past can now happen in real time. Time to reflect is valuable but absent, making things a lot less predictable these days. Beyond that, we commute in hours, ship cargo in days and the volume of both is steadily increasing. That may mean unexpected good, but my money is on the opposite. Look how easily disease moves from place to place, and how quickly it can grow. That's not a unique model.
Last edited by Marx & Lennon; 02-20-2015 at 10:06 AM.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#695 at 02-20-2015 10:51 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
First, why do some of us feel very little zenophobia?

Second, fear is a basic instinct, but how it is expressed varies greatly. Zenophobia is just one kind of fear, so it can't be made equal to fear itself...
This is true, and has political implications. There is solid scientific evidence that conservatives are risk averse, and liberals are not, so fear is a much stronger driver on the right. I assume the emotional drives the political, but I don't think that's been established completely.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#696 at 02-20-2015 11:39 AM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
This is true, and has political implications. There is solid scientific evidence that conservatives are risk averse, and liberals are not, so fear is a much stronger driver on the right. I assume the emotional drives the political, but I don't think that's been established completely.
Usually, ideological frameworks are fear driven, and the different frameworks are driven by different fears. So right-winger types are afraid of things usually that are other external groups. Left-wingers are usually afraid of running out resources. Your libertarians are afraid of being control, your fundies are afraid of losing it. All ideology it's primarily driven by fear and primarily lead by hope.







Post#697 at 02-20-2015 01:36 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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02-20-2015, 01:36 PM #697
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
First, why do some of us feel very little xenophobia?
Maybe because our extended families put the coddling of children above going to night clubs. Maybe because they weren't reeling drunks they were trustworthy with such discipline as they needed to offer. Maybe if snippets of The Untouchables managed to blare from television, our parents were able to explain that John Dillinger was an untrustworthy freak. This mattered more than did political stances. Are people basically trustworthy or are they not?

Those are among the first lessons that one learns as a child, and those color every aspect of life from childhood on. When one finds oneself encountering untrustworthy people one recognizes the difference. No it is not religion, ethnicity, or skin color.

Second, fear is a basic instinct, but how it is expressed varies greatly. Xenophobia is just one kind of fear, so it can't be made equal to fear itself.
There are legitimate fears -- like wildfires and structural fires. The campfire at a Scout camp is simply warm and it can cook food because it is under control. Poisons are dangerous -- but all medications are really poisons, anyway. Criminals are dangerous. Large predatory animals are potential man-eaters... except that we train dogs to be companions and keep the bears and Big Cats in cages in zoos. Speeding cars are dangerous.

So how do we deal with fear? Appropriate courage. Rational thought allows that. I've done some Census work, and I have met some big dogs in rural areas. If the dog wanted to play, we played. I know that rule with a large and potentially-lethal carnivore. Run? You cannot outrun a dog. I didn't want a dog bite or scratch -- or to be knocked down. Big cats or bears? To be avoided.

I know the rules with sulfuric acid. Do I need to go into those rules? I know the rules with explosives for people who don't know how to use them -- basically, do nothing with them. Crime? To be avoided. I met enough thugs in high school that people who simply looked unlike me, had a different set of religious doctrines, ate food unlike the insipid hick German-American fare that I was accustomed to, and had a different artistic aesthetic were non-threats.

The course of human evolution is to decrease fear and increase wisdom.
We are definitely not evolving physically. Humanity is a dead end for biological evolution. The human head is a constraint on childbirth. If some creature surpasses us it will not be our descendants. Culture? A different matter.

Civilization and the perfecting of it has lasted for well over 5000 years now, not 600.
Sure -- civilization is so perfect that eighty years ago one of the most sophisticated countries in the world got Adolf Hitler as its leader. Today ISIS uses the sophisticated technologies of the computer and the Internet to attract alienated people to join it and become genocidal beasts. To say that Nazis or ISIS are any 'better' than hunter-gatherers solely due to technology is to ignore the amorality of technology. The same technology that allows me to read The Brothers Karamazov without a physical book can also allow me access to sadistic pornography and violent 'true detective' stories.

Utopians are dangerous, because they believe no development is needed to achieve the ideal. It can be just immediately and completely allowed (libertarians, anarchists) or imposed (communists, Nazis, etc.).
I think of our "Only Reconstructivism" poster who has read Plato's Republic with too little attention to its unreality.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#698 at 02-20-2015 01:47 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Are people trustworthy or untrustworthy. I understand that child Nomads tend to learn the latter.







Post#699 at 02-20-2015 02:13 PM by JonLaw [at Hurricane Alley joined Oct 2010 #posts 186]
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Quote Originally Posted by Gianthogweed View Post
Does anyone think America's path will follow that of Rome's and we're seeing the death throes of the Republic a La Rome circa 150-40 BC?
Of course not. That doesn't even make any sense. How can you compare something that's happening now to something that happened before people had cars and airplanes?

1. Domination of money ("democracy"). Economic powers permeating the political forms and authorities

1800–2000
  • 19th century: From Napoleon toWorld War I. "System of great powers", standing armies, constitutions
  • 20th century: Transition from constitutional to informal sway of individuals. Annihilation wars.Imperialism


2. Formation of Caesarism. Victory of force-politics over money. Increasing primitiveness of political forms. Inward decline of the nations into a formless population, and constitution thereof as an imperium of gradually increasing crudity of despotism

2000–2200

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spengler%27s_civilization_model&ol did=571085146
The future always casts a shadow on the present.







Post#700 at 02-20-2015 02:28 PM by JonLaw [at Hurricane Alley joined Oct 2010 #posts 186]
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Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
I agree with your assessment. It seems to me that 'war' at some level( band, tribe, nation, etc) has been part of the human condition throughtout history.
Primal does not mean "has to happen". It's simply a neurological default.

There is no law of nature that human war has to occur.

People are not prisoners of their own neurology.

The problem of war can be solved.

(Note that I did not say "will or can be solved in the immediate or near-term future.")
The future always casts a shadow on the present.
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