You don't think Bush or Clinton would've whacked him the same way Obama did after 9/11? A Nomad would've nuked him and everyone around him and brought the war on terror to an end.Originally Posted by pbrower2a
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You don't think Bush or Clinton would've whacked him the same way Obama did after 9/11? A Nomad would've nuked him and everyone around him and brought the war on terror to an end.
Last edited by Classic-X'er; 04-27-2015 at 05:40 PM.
9/11 happened after Bill Clinton was out of office.
George W. Bush had nearly seven and a half years to get a plan for capturing or killing Osama bin Laden.
... Abbottabad is the home of the military academy of Pakistan, and a favorite retirement area for Pakistani military officers. That's where Osama bin Laden was hanging out.
Imagine this scenario. Some Tibetan tycoon (Tibetan opposition to China is comparatively non-violent, so that might not be relevant) had organized a plot to commandeer aircraft in China to smash them into tall buildings in China. Three of those aircraft 'successfully' smashed into tall buildings in Shanghai. The tycoon slipped into Langley, Virginia -- home of the Central Intelligence Agency -- without the knowledge of American officials. That includes the CIA. The Chinese intelligence service asks where that tycoon is and the President of the United States says "I don't know where -- but he should not be here. He's fair game to be killed or captured".
He is traced to some mansion in Langley. A Chinese warship just outside American territorial waters launches a Silkworm missile into that mansion, destroying the mansion and killing that tycoon. But CIA Headquarters are undamaged.
Would a nuke have been appropriate? Or would it have been appropriate in Abbottabad but not Langley?
Nice dilemma.
Barack Obama is definitely X.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Not owned by the government?
They are funded with taxes. They are maintained with government funds. Should the school building be sold, then the government gets the proceeds of the sale of the property.
Such may not apply if the government leases a building, which is possible but unlikely.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
You do realize that there is a big difference between financial influence and general compliance with rules and regulations relating to state and federal funding that liberals tend to elude to and point out and the actual ownership of a public school by the community that it's located in which I've been telling you and pointing out.
No, he's not.
Prince
PS: BTW, the fact that you even stated it that way shows me
that you don't understand a thing about 'generational theory'.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Which taxes? Our local taxes pay for the bulk of our public school system. Local taxes purchased the land, secured the bonds and built the schools that currently exist within the community. My kid doesn't go to public school in St. Paul or Minneapolis or a poorer minority stricken suburb like the community next door, so to speak.
Obama isn't a nomad. He doesn't have the balls and the resolve of a nomad. He sorta fits the X'er stereotype created by S&H and is a person that left-wingers are more able to identify with.
Are you a nomad? Are nomads supposed to follow prophets who don't know jack shit about anything important?
My point, any American president regardless of their generation would have taken bin Laden out following 9/11. The fact that he was the one who got the opportunity and authorized the mission doesn't prove that he's a nomad.
On the bright side within 10 years many of the Boomer Babies will be dead, taking their religious Statist shit show with them. This crazy devotion to their blood god "Government" will die with them, and all the fetid air from their narcissistic miasma will finally blow away and disappear, never to haunt the culture again. The media juggernaut they have surrounded themselves with for the last 40 years will evaporate, and the money they inherited will no longer poison the economic well with their piss poor decision making.
Of all the horrendous "prophet" (more correctly "locust") traits, their fanatical belief in the piety of government bureaucrats as a priesthood devoted to that diety The State has to be the most dangerous. The propaganda they grew up with has ruined their minds beyond all repair, and they have done their best to visit the same on Gen Y. Millies grew up in a prison, and perhaps they will never recover. Certainly they lack the ability to think critically, substituting consensus for rational thought. Add to that the fact that there will be nothing to inherit after the next round of the financial crisis, and you begin to see the true fate of that generation.
Things are beginning to accelerate, and people are increasingly coming to understand that there is no political solution. Many people are seeing the corrupt politics as the source of the problem, and some portion of the public sees that politics and government by its very nature is "corrupt". It is a feature, the aim, of domination and control, not an unfortunate side effect of a loving God caring for us cradle to grave. While a small number of people, perhaps 8%, still has some kind of white collar steady job, the vast majority of people do not live in that delusional bubble world where the flag waves overhead, protecting us all with its radiant glory while government drones serve our every need. What a bunch of bullshit.
This understanding is at the core of the American tradition. It is this that is the source of the hated "exceptionalism", not the "American Dream" of paying a mortgage on a postage stamp property that we never really own, or any such nonsense. This disbelief in divine right and the essential equality of all people is the exceptionalism that the media hacks that spew propaganda deride so frequently now.
Americans have a unique and valuable culture that transcends the bounds of ethnicity, and it is this human progress that the owners of this country seek to destroy. But America has no aristocracy now, and it never will.
There is nothing to inherit after the Boomers squandered what the GI's gave them. There is no government fix for government rapaciousness. There is nothing but destruction of the old system and uncertainty afterward.
And it's going to be awesome.
You know it!
I'm pretty sure that Nomads don't really 'follow' anybody, historically speaking.
Prince
PS:
Exactly. And, I seriously doubt a Nomad would use it as a freakin' re-election campaign-slogan.
I will say that I probably wouldn't have 'nuked' the area, though.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
In-Deed!
Prince
PS: SB, you seriously don't pull any punches.
(Brutal, but maybe necessary, IMO.)
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
The method is characteristic of Chicago gangsters of the Capone era. That's not to say that this gangland-style hit was unjustified; just that a Boomer would have never done it that way.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Boomers are no more 'statist' than any generation that they had known since the Lost. I see more fault with Boomers as bureaucratic elites who became more like a Soviet-style nomenklatura who get paid exceedingly well for treating others badly, for promoting anti-scientific junk like young-age creationism and pseudohistory such as David Barton's nonsense about America having been founded as a nation of uncritical believers in the Bible, for failing to make great contributions to science and technology, rejecting blue-collar industrial and construction work because they would rather 'find themselves', and failing to establish small businesses. Boomers at their worst are exploiters and abusers who demand to be seen as benefactors as those whom they exploit and abuse. The State has not grown faster than the general economy while Boomers have been influential.
Those who have not been part of the economic elite are going to need their Social Security and Medicare. Those in the elite have gladly sought the power of the government to enforce monopolistic profiteering and to make sweetheart deals to the profit of the corporations that they dominate as executives.Of all the horrendous "prophet" (more correctly "locust") traits, their fanatical belief in the piety of government bureaucrats as a priesthood devoted to that deity The State has to be the most dangerous. The propaganda they grew up with has ruined their minds beyond all repair, and they have done their best to visit the same on Gen Y. Millies grew up in a prison, and perhaps they will never recover. Certainly they lack the ability to think critically, substituting consensus for rational thought. Add to that the fact that there will be nothing to inherit after the next round of the financial crisis, and you begin to see the true fate of that generation.
Even the libertarian dream of dismantling the State, privatizing everything potentially profitable (most likely to insiders) and abandoning the rest along with people who need those parts of the government, is itself a political solution. The distinction between great white collar jobs and dreadful blue-collar jobs by the color of the collar isn't so obvious. I'd guess that many clerks would gladly take jobs as operators of heavy equipment if they got the chance.Things are beginning to accelerate, and people are increasingly coming to understand that there is no political solution. Many people are seeing the corrupt politics as the source of the problem, and some portion of the public sees that politics and government by its very nature is "corrupt". It is a feature, the aim, of domination and control, not an unfortunate side effect of a loving God caring for us cradle to grave. While a small number of people, perhaps 8%, still has some kind of white collar steady job, the vast majority of people do not live in that delusional bubble world where the flag waves overhead, protecting us all with its radiant glory while government drones serve our every need.
The point to paying a mortgage on a house that one may never really own (because one usually sells it before the house is paid off, the owner having to sell because he has been transferred from Greater Baltimore to Greater Denver) is to get more house for the money than does paying for an awful tenement. But such is usually a post-WWII phenomenon outside of rural America.This understanding is at the core of the American tradition. It is this that is the source of the hated "exceptionalism", not the "American Dream" of paying a mortgage on a postage stamp property that we never really own, or any such nonsense. This disbelief in divine right and the essential equality of all people is the exceptionalism that the media hacks that spew propaganda deride so frequently now.
I've got some news for you. In classical music we Americans have nobody as great a composer as Grieg (Norway), Nielsen (Denmark), Atterberg (Sweden), Dvorak (Czech Republic), Bartok (Hungary), or Sibelius (Finland)...all from small countries in population. That's before I mention Austria, which has such insignificant composers as Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, and Bruckner. Do I assign Mahler to the Czech Republic or to Austria?Americans have a unique and valuable culture that transcends the bounds of ethnicity, and it is this human progress that the owners of this country seek to destroy. But America has no aristocracy now, and it never will.
Three of our best (Bernstein, Copland, and Gershwin) are only a couple generations at most separated from the Jewish shtetl, so their distinctively-American character has some non-American origin, and it shows. OK, so we Americans can be thankful for the strong Jewish influence upon our culture, especially through early cinema and the theater (the Yiddish theater that 'Americanized' by performing in English and getting a larger audience).
Without the blacks and Jews America doesn't have much of a culture distinct from any other. Face it - the Russians have greater novelists, the French have greater painters, and the Germans and Austrians have the greatest composers. As an American I get to pick and choose what I like without asking about the national origin of the creator.
Do you want to start by destroying the Interstate Highway system? The colleges and universities? The art museums?There is nothing to inherit after the Boomers squandered what the GI's gave them. There is no government fix for government rapaciousness. There is nothing but destruction of the old system and uncertainty afterward.
And it's going to be awesome.
Wanton destruction is being done -- by ISIS in Iraq.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
PBro, do you even bother to research this stuff,
or are you just spouting more non-sense?
Prince
PS: And another thing. I don't think US Navy SEALs would appreciate being compared
to 'gangsters'. Personally, I don't appreciate it. So, please consider a re-evaluation.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
The method was characteristic of a high level military operation that involved US Special Forces. A boomer would've have done it the same way.
The dude is emotionally attached to Obama, financially attached to Obama and the Democratic party in general and he will say just anything to prop up Obama and prop up his party and S & H theory.
I hear what you're saying, and pretty much agree, but it sounds to me more
like PBro's just trying to pawn-off President Obama's failure of not living-up to
PBro's own 'progressive' expectations away from his generation and onto ours.
Nothing new, in my experience.
Prince
PS: So, are you following what's going-on tonight in Baltimore?
If you're interested, Copperfield alerted me to broadcastify.com.
You can go there and listen to the police scanners, which is really
a different perspective than what you'll get on TV.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
I don't think he's trying to pawn him off on us. I think he actually still believes in him and all the liberal bullshit that has been associated with him.
Give credit where it is due. The Central Intelligence Agency, which President Obama had done nothing to offend, did the unglamorous work of surveillance upon couriers that Osama bin Laden used as the only means of communicating and getting communications. The Special Forces, honed to do pin-point strikes, did what they were told to do.
It worked. But so did the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, a masterful gangland hit. Love him or hate him (and I hate him), you must admit that Al Capone was a clever man.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
I'm still a liberal. Had I lost faith in him I would still be a liberal. Liberalism involves principles developed over decades.
I have lost faith in contemporary American conservatism which has lost all intellectual and moral authority. I have even suggested how conservatism can revive -- by recovering the old virtues that conservatism used to have.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 04-28-2015 at 02:04 AM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
George W Bush did not, and Bill Clinton did not. They dithered around, lost sight of the target and lobbed missiles at him. They didn't do it in a thorough and ruthless way, and they failed. That's brower's point, and it's a good one. But I still look upon Obama as a hybrid. He has a lot of visionary idealism too, and lots of liberal "bullshit" to confuse and confound Gen Xer conservatives.
I can't say that I see many potential FDR's among boomers on the scene now. There may be a few, but they aren't stepping up. In any case, even if one were to be elected in 2016, (s)he could not do what what FDR did, even if he were another FDR. Congress is too powerful, too gerrymandered, and way-more ideological and reactionary than any other congress in history. A progressive president, even if elected, will not be able to use "more persuasive power than Obama has." No amount of persuasive power will work with the lunatics now safely-installed in our House of Representatives.
Our House is divided; it cannot stand until the divide is broken. It must be done later on in this 4T. It remains to be seen if a boomer president will accomplish this. If so, just like in the past, such a boomer "gray champion" president will likely be a cusper or hybrid, because other boomers will be too old to assume this role in 2025. However, there will still be many boomers in power at that time, just as there are silents still around now.
That's right.An Awakening requires a generation of kids who had been indulged and given a combination of intellectual freedom and relative protection growing up. Children growing up in a wrecked world are compelled to grow up fast and avoid challenging the commands of elders who may have wrecked much of that world. If American cities look much like this in 2025
(Warning: this is copyrighted material from CORBIS, and I use a Fair Use rationale for its use for educational purposes and commentary)
Destruction of Hamburg, 1945
Destroyed buildings in a Hamburg street. Germany, 1945.
Stock Photo ID: HU036635
Date Photographed: ca. 1945
Model Released:
No Release
Property Released:
No Release
Location:
Hamburg, Germany
Credit:
© Hulton-Deutsch Collection/CORBIS
License Type:
Rights Managed (RM)
...and things stay this way for a considerable time because the rest of the world will be too broke to rescue America even if it wanted to do so, then the children of the post-Crisis era might know a hardscrabble existence too long to avoid becoming materialistic and pragmatic. Western Germany, including Hamburg, recovered quickly because of the Marshall Plan. There might be no Marshall Plan at the end of this Crisis; it could be every man for himself -- even if the 'man' is a small child.
Amen!We can still get through this Crisis reasonably well if we choose appropriate leaders -- leaders without cynicism, leaders with no desire to set scores when they could instead negotiate, leaders with caution but not cowardice, leaders who if given the choice between mercy and cruelty in the wake of victory choose mercy. War may be inevitable with some Evil Entity... let that Evil Entity not be us!
Oh, yes -- we must stop the hostile takeover of American democracy by the Koch brothers and their like.
No, it's not a good one.
(BTW, Eric. Why don't you let PBro speak for himself?
He's the one making the claim; Let him try and defend it.)
Anyway, you can't judge it by what they did at the time.
You have to look at what was done when it was done.
(Well, technically you can judge it the way you apparently are,
but it would be a meaningless analysis, IMO. And it is.)
Post 9/11, I think it's un-reasonable to believe that President Clinton
or President Bush wouldn't have done the same thing, the same way.
Besides, Al Capone was born in 1899(ie: pretty much on the Nomad/Civic cusp).
And, a lot of the older mob guys at the time were immigrants from Sicily.
Who knows what turning they might have been experiencing?
Prince
PS: If you have any evidence(outside of "I just know"!) feel free to post it.
Otherwise, I'll stick with you guys just being your normal 'progressive' selves.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Because I wanted to make the point too.
How can you say that, when Clinton did not do the same thing after the African bombings, and Bush didn't do the same thing after 9-11, and had 7+ years to do it?Anyway, you can't judge it by what they did at the time.
You have to look at what was done when it was done.
(Well, technically you can judge it the way you apparently are,
but it would be a meaningless analysis, IMO. And it is.
Post 9/11, I think it's un-reasonable to believe that President Clinton
or President Bush wouldn't have done the same thing, the same way.
Who knows about Al Capone; he might not have even been behind the massacre. But it's just an illustration.Besides, Al Capone was born in 1899(ie: pretty much on the Nomad/Civic cusp).
And, a lot of the older mob guys at the time were immigrants from Sicily.
Who knows what turning they might have been experiencing?
If you are interested in evidence, how could you make a statement that George W. Bush would have done the same thing, when he obviously did not? I find it incredible that you could make such a statement. At least it's a coherent one and on-point, and that's rather rare for you. But I know you can do better than that.Prince
PS: If you have any evidence(outside of "I just know"!) feel free to post it.
Our normal brilliant, well-educated, compassionate, fact-based, far-seeing selves, yes indeed.Otherwise, I'll stick with you guys just being your normal 'progressive' selves.
