Originally Posted by Felix5

Wow the shit, people who have no life, care about. 58 Flat, what do you do all day? Don't you have a job or something...It must be nice to just sit around all day, research articles to support your biased and hateful opinions, and write walls of text.

I'm looking out for my 83-year-old, widowed father whom I do not trust with the stove, range, or car keys. He's had a wisdom tooth extracted, and the pain pills make him act like a drunk at times. I had a pair wisdom teeth extracted when I was about 30, and that was a beating. Just imagine it for someone 83.

Btw I'm pretty sure the left feels the same way about the right. This left v right thing is an endless argument.

Polarized as America is, I can only imagine how the right-left divide polarizes into ugly stereotypes by each other about each other.

All of this talk of freeloaders is a joke. The freeloaders are really the middle class, in my opinion. Benefits, weekends, vacation days, sick days, retirement, pension plans, 401ks. Most of you people are the ones who end up on social security in your elder years, given to you off of the backs of those who actually worked. And they never seem to stop whining about how horrible their suburban, vacation, SUV filled lives are.

The ruling elite of America doesn't really want or need a middle class except as brutal enforcers of its will.

Originally Posted by Felix5

Wow the shit, people who have no life, care about. 58 Flat, what do you do all day? Don't you have a job or something...It must be nice to just sit around all day, research articles to support your biased and hateful opinions, and write walls of text.

Btw I'm pretty sure the left feels the same way about the right. This left v right thing is an endless argument.

All of this talk of freeloaders is a joke. The freeloaders are really the middle class, in my opinion. Benefits, weekends, vacation days, sick days, retirement, pension plans, 401ks. Most of you people are the ones who end up on social security in your elder years, given to you off of the backs of those who actually worked. And they never seem to stop whining about how horrible their suburban, vacation, SUV filled lives are.

I write "walls of text"? I can't even light a candle to this forum's dominant left-liberal Boomers in that department.

And "hateful opinions"? I guess if you consider the likes of FDR, Frances Perkins, Mike Royko, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and John Lindsay to be "hateful" ...

In any event, thanks for vindicating me: It is "hardhats" like me that all you left-liberals, "movement conservatives," and libertarians all fear and loathe far more than you fear and loathe one another.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

I write "walls of text"? I can't even light a candle to this forum's dominant left-liberal Boomers in that department.

And "hateful opinions"? I guess if you consider the likes of FDR, Frances Perkins, Mike Royko, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and John Lindsay to be "hateful" ...

In any event, thanks for vindicating me: It is "hardhats" like me that all you left-liberals, "movement conservatives," and libertarians all fear and loathe far more than you fear and loathe one another.

We liberals are all so nice and mellow, so tolerant and accepting of differences, that we don't fear and loathe anybody

But, whom I consider the most harmful to society and progress? No, it's not you; it's a straight shoot to the right-wing, almost always Republicans.....

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

I guess money and material wealth aren't the most important things in life for some people.
What a strange concept!

Yeah, for some people, prejudice, hatred, violence, backward thinking and intolerance are more important.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I don't see either 4T option emerging: cohesion or taking sides. Yes, ideological sides are being taken, but that's just the norm for politics. Even there, the intensity is lacking for the political struggle to grow into something larger. Yet the need to move the country away from a neutral and barren center is obvious to everyone. It's just not happening!

So we can have another triggering event, and this time may be the charm, or the 4T might melt away to insignificance. Since I don't see the trigger, I'm voting for a mild or even a failed 4T.

I wish David Kaiser would make an appearance.

I'm breaking a rule and quoting myself, only because I need to address the same issue again.

In today's NY Times, Roger Cohen, who is based in Europe, made similar points about the politics there.

Most Westerners today are no longer driven by politics. By that I mean that they are no longer possessed by political ideas that they feel can change society. There is no great clash of ideologies. Politics in the 21st century has largely lost its capacity to inspire, or if there is a gust of inspiration (as with early Barack Obama) it proves illusory.
People are focused on other matters: personal health, spiritual health, wellness, diet, living longer, and the vast related matter of the health of the planet. Zen, yoga and the soul have trumped the means of production. Of course, wellness in turn raises the issues of climate change and energy consumption, questions that have considerable political content but are not political at their core. The political century has given way to the personal century.

That is one reason why the 20th century already seems so distant, why the Berlin of then and the Berlin of now appear almost unrelated and stumbling on a memorial in the Tiergarten so strange. The last century’s great battles no longer resonate. They bear little relation to people’s harried lives. They are almost quaint.

Read the rest HERE.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

There is nothing moral about take from the rich to give to the poor either. It's greedy as well.

The rich have an unparalleled ability to steal from everyone, yet they have no more right to live on this planet than anyone else. Their theft is even tolerated most of the time, as long as they don't get overly greedy. Eventually, they do; we're at that point today. How would you deal with decades of theft going the other way if not to reclaim what's been stolen in the past using the only legal form of coercion to accomplish it?

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I live in a world with money. I live in a world with lots of salesman who are hounding people for a portion and contributions of their money for this or that cause or item at all times. I live in a world with lots of scoundrels, petty crooks and untrustworthy people looking for easy money or a piece of the action. I live in the world of unprotected business. I live in modern day America.

This could also describe the Pirate Kingdoms of the past. I don't' consider that very flattering. Apparently, you do.

We don't need a globalist bureaucrat to tell us how to live. What we need is government that cares for the national well-being and cares for the safety and prosperity of the people. Restorationism looks back and basically seeks to create a 21st century version of history before the mid-17th century: Think more of east and southeast asia during those eras rather than feudal Europe although some persian/hellenistic/roman/byzantine administrative ideas would be thrown in, all of this would be implemented with 21st century technology. The meritocratic elite will ascend to its rightful and will rule, it would be cultivated using the civil-military education system and would a well rounded cohort of trained technocratic-military men and women. Many would also learn entrepreneurial abilities in order to run the future communal-entrepreneurial economy.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

In today's NY Times, Roger Cohen, who is based in Europe, made similar points about the politics there.

Read the rest HERE.

I think it makes a vast difference here as opposed to Europe. Ironically, the 4T is worse in Europe than here, so far. In the worst case scenario which some people here have mentioned, racist genocide could return because of resentment against immigrants from Asia and Africa. Meanwhile though, the USA has an ideological divide that is totally paralyzing the country. If it were true that no-one is interested in it, then I imagine it would melt away.

It is true though that our media is getting more preoccupied with self-help, and less with public affairs. I suspect one reason is not that ideology does not interest people, but because they only listen now to their own echo chamber, rather than to ideological food fights and pundit commentary. Americans today have little need for that kind of programming, because they have already made up their minds.

And the media CEOs have already made up their minds too-- that they can make lots more money by converting news programs into entertainment. Witness the demise of ABC News, Nightline, Dateline, 48 Hours, etc, and dearth of comment shows on PBS now, compared to self-help shows and endless fundraising entertainment shows, etc.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

There is a tradeoff. If you make it difficult for cheats to take advantage of a government benefit such as food stamps or medical assistance, you also end up shutting out a lot of genuinely needy people who have trouble jumping through all of the hoops. You have to figure out what balance of coverage versus integrity is acceptable. Each person's preference is different.

This also applies to the criminal justice system. Is it better to let some of the guilty go free or increase the number imprisoned innocent people. Interesting to me, the conservatives who screamed the loudest for lock-'em-up-and-throw-away-the-key, are now saying they made a mistake. Now the reason is a bit self serving (taxes going through the roof), but the tide is still turning.

That may start to affect the welfare system, if they feel threatened by the hungry and desperate. Obviously, we're not there yet.

Originally Posted by Felix5

Wow the shit, people who have no life, care about. 58 Flat, what do you do all day? Don't you have a job or something...It must be nice to just sit around all day, research articles to support your biased and hateful opinions, and write walls of text.

Btw I'm pretty sure the left feels the same way about the right. This left v right thing is an endless argument.

All of this talk of freeloaders is a joke. The freeloaders are really the middle class, in my opinion. Benefits, weekends, vacation days, sick days, retirement, pension plans, 401ks. Most of you people are the ones who end up on social security in your elder years, given to you off of the backs of those who actually worked. And they never seem to stop whining about how horrible their suburban, vacation, SUV filled lives are.

The middle class isn't the problem. Middle income today is roughly $50,000 for a family of four. But even the $200,000 crowd shouldn't be an issue. The real issue is the state of the economy that allows employers to treat their employees like shit. Fixing that requires jobs, and lots of them. Once the employee is in demand, the treatment improves, or she leaves for other opportunities ... but not before.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

I guess money and material wealth aren't the most important things in life for some people.
What a strange concept!

<chuckle!>


Prince

PS: Oh, you know I just gotta find-out what this is all about!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

"Also, the white American poor, which is most of them, are socially conservative -- God knows why. They will vote against their own financial interests if a politician makes enough suitable noises about Jesus and guns. They would rather stay poor and prevent gay marriage than have more money and be more tolerant."

---Ernest W. Adams, Game Design Consultant, Author

So, who doesn't get what, now again?

So, Eric. Would you be so kind to provide a link to the source of this quote?


Prince

PS: !

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

So, Eric. Would you be so kind to provide a link to the source of this quote?


Prince

PS: !

http://www.quora.com/During-the-1980...d-corporations

Entire quote posted here:
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...439#post525439

This is just a nice statement I agree with.
Further down on the above thread are more substantial statistical points.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

http://www.quora.com/During-the-1980...d-corporations

Entire quote posted here:
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...439#post525439

This is just a nice statement I agree with.
Further down on the above thread are more substantial statistical points.

So, some dude with a background in 'computer gaming' and 'interactive story-telling'
makes an off-hand post to Quora.com, and I'm supposed to .... you know what, Eric:

Whatever.


Prince

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

So, some dude with a background in 'computer gaming' and 'interactive story-telling'
makes an off-hand post to Quora.com, and I'm supposed to .... you know what, Eric:

Whatever.


Prince

Well, some people think Jesus and guns are important. It isn't that much of a stretch to understand either. I do have trouble picturing Jesus with a gun.

Originally Posted by B Butler

One conservative idea from the Reagan ear is the notion that welfare shouldn't be a way of life for fit people able to hold down a job. A helping hand in a time of need, sure, but the help comes with job training, job placement help and a ticking clock.

In a tax the poor to help the rich economy, this isn't always an adequate answer. If the economy isn't inclusive, if training and placement help don't result in a job, the situation is problematic.

Beyond that, I'll let Classic answer. It seems to be a conservative meme that the system is abusable thus ought to be reduced or shut down. I too would like to hear specifics on what documented abuses exist. In principle I'm against actual abuse of the system as much as any conservative. Money that goes to cheats should go elsewhere. That's not the same thing as delusional abuse that exists only in the minds of conservatives for the purpose of justifying their greed. Let's talk about real documentable problems.

Generally speaking, abuses aren't openly stated, admitted or legally documented.

Originally Posted by B Butler

Well, some people think Jesus and guns are important. It isn't that much of a stretch to understand either. I do have trouble picturing Jesus with a gun.

Bob, you're gonna have to spell it out more clearly.


Prince

PS: Wait. Nope. On second thought, I'm not interested.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

Generally speaking, abuses aren't openly stated, admitted or legally documented.

Convenient. A cynic might believe they can't be stated, admitted or documented because a lot of them are figments of conservative imaginations. I'll yield a willingness to fix any real abuses that can be fixed, but if you can't describe anything to fix or show that it exists, you can remove abuses from your list of reasonable objections.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Bob, you're gonna have to spell it out more clearly.


Prince

PS: Wait. Nope. On second thought, I'm not interested.

Sure? Chicken!

I'd like to put all of the anarchocapitalist Gen X'ers onto a boat in the middle of Lake Ontario - for surely you could fit them all on one - and drop a guided munition onto it.

The time for dialogue with them is past. Stop jeopardizing the future of my generation.

Originally Posted by B Butler

Convenient. A cynic might believe they can't be stated, admitted or documented because a lot of them are figments of conservative imaginations. I'll yield a willingness to fix any real abuses that can be fixed, but if you can't describe anything to fix or show that it exists, you can remove abuses from your list of reasonable objections.

Unless you're in a greater position than me with the government, you don't have direct access to government information and all the specifics and details relating to government payouts and expenditures or the legal power to audit departments and investigate for corruption and abuse of government funds to submit to me.

Originally Posted by Einzige

I'd like to put all of the anarchocapitalist Gen X'ers onto a boat in the middle of Lake Ontario - for surely you could fit them all on one - and drop a guided munition onto it.

The time for dialogue with them is past. Stop jeopardizing the future of my generation.

Careful, PB might have to have you banned for using such threatening language. Personally, I wouldn't waste an expensive guided munition on a boat full of anarchosocialists and wannabe socialists.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

Careful, PB might have to have you banned for using such threatening language. Personally, I wouldn't waste an expensive guided munition on a boat full of anarchosocialists and wannabe socialists.

I don't think that you quite understand. You will, in time. Give it, ah, a decade.

Originally Posted by B Butler

Sure? Chicken!

<chuckle!>

Eh? Maybe.

Then again, maybe trying to sift through some 'fantasy narrative' that apparently 'feels right'
to a bunch of MBTI-INTPs on this message board is just beyond my current level of interest.


Prince

PS: So Bob, No. I'll take a pass.
(but thanks for 'asking'! )