Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Wrong! Guns are an inanimate object which can be used for many things.

Oh, the never-ending gun debate. My patience for it is very limited; sorry. Many kinds of guns have only one purpose: to kill people. Easy availability of guns is one factor in the greater violence in the USA; I never claimed it was the only factor. Yes, the War on Drugs is another.

Now we have to (go) into specifics. I see nothing wrong with mutual natural disaster assistance agreements, disease/pest control efforts, and the like as OK. However the use of US military is something I would have a default of no use. The purpose of the military is exclusively restricted to the US homeland. We have a lot of Cold War relics like NATO. Of course we broke our promise to Russia on NATO expansion in return to German reunification. So, yeah Russia is a might pissed on what we've been doing. I think we also supported some Neo-fascists in Ukraine. Russia is understandably upset about that as well.

That doesn't give Mr. Putin the right to invade neighboring countries. The Ukrainians rose up in an Arab-Spring era revolution for democracy, and threw out a corrupt authoritarian leader supported by Russia. They want more ties to the West. They should get what they want. I agree The West broke its promise on NATO expansion, and that Ukraine should not join NATO. But Putin's solution of attacking his neighbors and fomenting unnecessary killing is not the answer. Ukraine has already agreed to greater autonomy for Eastern Ukraine. That's all anyone should expect. But killers need to kill, I guess. There's no need for the USA to enter their war, of course. But.... we might, come Dec. 2020.

I think one solution is for Russia to democratize and throw out its dictator Putin. Then it would be a suitable ally, and it could join NATO itself, and NATO would no longer be an alliance aimed at Russia. Things were headed in that direction before Putin screwed it up. Eventually, it could happen, as part of an eventual movement toward world federation. Hey, Russia; if you can't beat us, join us!

Advice to younger Xer's and Millies. Turn on [to whatever], tune out, opt out.

They need to tune in and opt in. Even if they don't agree with the Left on guns or something else, they must back the progressive side if they want their country to succeed in this 4T and beyond. It's time for decision and involvement, and not for insisting on perfect agreement with every politician.

That's dumb.

But I would say it again and again. And I am correct.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Oh, the never-ending gun debate. My patience for it is very limited; sorry. Many kinds of guns have only one purpose: to kill people. Easy availability of guns is one factor in the greater violence in the USA; I never claimed it was the only factor. Yes, the War on Drugs is another.

Actually the War on Drugs, the criminalization of large segments of the population (Particularly Blacks), racial and ethnic divides and so on are the drivers of gun violence. Guns were widely available in the old west yet crime was actually lower on the frontier than it was in the city, and it should be noted that in the city you would be more likely to be attacked by a knife of brickbat than a gun at that time (and today too).

That doesn't give Mr. Putin the right to invade neighboring countries. The Ukrainians rose up in an Arab-Spring era revolution for democracy, and threw out a corrupt authoritarian leader supported by Russia. They want more ties to the West. They should get what they want. I agree The West broke its promise on NATO expansion, and that Ukraine should not join NATO. But Putin's solution of attacking his neighbors and fomenting unnecessary killing is not the answer. Ukraine has already agreed to greater autonomy for Eastern Ukraine. That's all anyone should expect. But killers need to kill, I guess. There's no need for the USA to enter their war, of course. But.... we might, come Dec. 2020.

The Ukrainians did not rise up in an arab spring like revolution for democracy, what happened is the Western section of Ukraine is dominated by neo-nazi like thugs who hate ethnic Russians (probably because they are mostly ethnic Poles). Further, there is no solid evidence that Putin invaded (though he does have troops on that boarder to prevent seepage into the R.F.). The Crimea had a referendum to join the Russian Federation, and it is not surprising how they voted, the majority population there is ethnic Russian, Russian is the language used there (though the differences between Ukrainian and Russian are about the same as the difference between American and Texan).

American or even NATO involvement into that conflict will end in disaster. Putin is not exactly popular in Russia but the Russians have a history of being invaded, pulling back into their huge country waiting and attacking with vengeance in winter.

I think one solution is for Russia to democratize and throw out its dictator Putin. Then it would be a suitable ally, and it could join NATO itself, and NATO would no longer be an alliance aimed at Russia. Things were headed in that direction before Putin screwed it up. Eventually, it could happen, as part of an eventual movement toward world federation. Hey, Russia; if you can't beat us, join us!

Russia will never be a liberal democracy. The Russian culture has no history of liberal democracy, and the size of the country itself prevents it from forming. Further Russia will never join NATO. Where Russia was headed before Putin was being a third-world state (mostly because they have a tradition of strong men, and Yeltsin was a drunk). Russia needs not beat NATO merely to contain it.

They need to tune in and opt in. Even if they don't agree with the Left on guns or something else, they must back the progressive side if they want their country to succeed in this 4T and beyond. It's time for decision and involvement, and not for insisting on perfect agreement with every politician.

No it is boomers who need to opt in to the post culture wars world. As I said in an other thread, where us niggers live we can't count on the cops, we can't count on the gangsters playing nice, we can't count on whitey not shooting us so we need guns. It is the responsibility of Fathers and Uncles to teach their seeds how to get their food cloths and shelter, and for girls in particular how to use the ratchet (as she may have to defend herself and her babies from either a gangster or whitey).

But I would say it again and again. And I am correct.

No Eric, you are wrong again. Repeating yourself does not make it any less wrong either. That said, perhaps you could create a file of canned responses to everything since you basically post the same crap over and over and over. I sometimes wonder if you are a person or a bot for the purpose of aggravating humans.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Actually the War on Drugs, the criminalization of large segments of the population (Particularly Blacks), racial and ethnic divides and so on are the drivers of gun violence. Guns were widely available in the old west yet crime was actually lower on the frontier than it was in the city, and it should be noted that in the city you would be more likely to be attacked by a knife of brickbat than a gun at that time (and today too).

Ha! The wild west was all about gun violence, and so are today's cities.

The Ukrainians did not rise up in an arab spring like revolution for democracy, what happened is the Western section of Ukraine is dominated by neo-nazi like thugs who hate ethnic Russians (probably because they are mostly ethnic Poles). Further, there is no solid evidence that Putin invaded (though he does have troops on that boarder to prevent seepage into the R.F.). The Crimea had a referendum to join the Russian Federation, and it is not surprising how they voted, the majority population there is ethnic Russian, Russian is the language used there (though the differences between Ukrainian and Russian are about the same as the difference between American and Texan).

That so-called referendum was held under Russian occupation, not conducted by a neutral party. There was no fair choice the way the ballot was written. Maybe the Crimeans would still have voted to join Russia, but there should have been a fair vote. And now Russia is invading Ukraine and supporting foolish, murderous rebels there. They invaded and took over northern Georgia too. The question is, how far will Putin go. And that's not the only question. Another one is, how long will Putin lie and think he can get away with it? And how long will he keep convincing foolish communists like you with his lies?

Russia will never be a liberal democracy. The Russian culture has no history of liberal democracy, and the size of the country itself prevents it from forming. Further Russia will never join NATO. Where Russia was headed before Putin was being a third-world state (mostly because they have a tradition of strong men, and Yeltsin was a drunk). Russia needs not beat NATO merely to contain it.

Nothing ever changes, you say, and yet somehow the British evolved from Henry VIII to parliamentary democracy.

No it is boomers who need to opt in to the post culture wars world. As I said in an other thread, where us niggers live we can't count on the cops, we can't count on the gangsters playing nice, we can't count on whitey not shooting us so we need guns. It is the responsibility of Fathers and Uncles to teach their seeds how to get their food cloths and shelter, and for girls in particular how to use the ratchet (as she may have to defend herself and her babies from either a gangster or whitey).

You guys just kill each other with all your guns. You are not defeating the police; nor will you. Join a new 1960s-style Black Panthers, I guess, and see how far you get.

No Eric, you are wrong again. Repeating yourself does not make it any less wrong either. That said, perhaps you could create a file of canned responses to everything since you basically post the same crap over and over and over. I sometimes wonder if you are a person or a bot for the purpose of aggravating humans.

Repeating myself makes it right, because you are wrong. I - hope - I - succeeded - in - annoying- you. Bot - out...

Warning, warning, Will Robinson!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Oh, the never-ending gun debate. My patience for it is very limited; sorry. Many kinds of guns have only one purpose: to kill people. Easy availability of guns is one factor in the greater violence in the USA; I never claimed it was the only factor. Yes, the War on Drugs is another.

I've shot tin cans with my .22 and birds with my 12 gauge. Neither involved other people. Besides the the War on drugs, there's the jump suit merry go round. People get arrested for trivial things, get a felony rap and that's it. Next it's off to the big house where the ratio of sociopaths to "normal people" is higher. Next they have to join some sort of gang and learn how to manufacture shanks just to survive. Note, gangs are separated by apparent skin color. If you're black, you hook up with the Bloods or Crips, white Aryan Brotherhood, Mexican looking would be Latin Kings, etc. It's rather simple, you can join a gang for self protection or spend your time being somebody's bitch. After you get your felony rap, good luck getting a job when your time is done. My guess is you'll join whatever gang you picked in prison and hook up on the outside. So:
Prison = gang factories.

That doesn't give Mr. Putin the right to invade neighboring countries. The Ukrainians rose up in an Arab-Spring era revolution for democracy, and threw out a corrupt authoritarian leader supported by Russia.

I suppose this means you support the Right Sector.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
I suppose I should like them because their colors are black and red.

They want more ties to the West. They should get what they want. I agree The West broke its promise on NATO expansion, and that Ukraine should not join NATO. But Putin's solution of attacking his neighbors and fomenting unnecessary killing is not the answer. Ukraine has already agreed to greater autonomy for Eastern Ukraine. That's all anyone should expect. But killers need to kill, I guess. There's no need for the USA to enter their war, of course. But.... we might, come Dec. 2020.

Poking the bear is not a good idea. I also think the USA is hardly in a position to point fingers. In this case there's 1 finger pointing @ Russia and 4 pointing back at the USA.

I think one solution is for Russia to democratize and throw out its dictator Putin.

Russia has its own destiny to chart. It's not our place to decide Russia's future choices wrt self governance.

Then it would be a suitable ally, and it could join NATO itself, and NATO would no longer be an alliance aimed at Russia.

In that case there would be even less of a need for NATO than now. It's obsolete.

Things were headed in that direction before Putin screwed it up. Eventually, it could happen, as part of an eventual movement toward world federation. Hey, Russia; if you can't beat us, join us!

Uh, have you checked on actual government results of Russia vs. the USA? Russia's debt levels are far lower than here and well, they do have an effective mass transit system among other things.

They need to tune in and opt in. Even if they don't agree with the Left on guns or something else, they must back the progressive side if they want their country to succeed in this 4T and beyond. It's time for decision and involvement, and not for insisting on perfect agreement with every politician.

If they support da "platform", then sure. It's around someplace around here. But anyhow, if they support
1. Mass transit modernization.
a. Passenger rail
b. busses.
c. shuttles to and from bus hubs.
d. bus to train stations.
[Like why should folks get a car to get to their jobs etc. as the only option?]
2. "Planeteer Platoons" <- If Ted Turner will let me borrow it.
a. pick up endocrine disrupting plastic trash for recycling
b. Smart ones work in chemistry labs to find a more effective way of converting plastic back into feedstocks.
c. Gather aluminum cans. The recycle energy cost is 90% less than making new aluminum.
d. Find some way to mine E-waste for rare earth elements so we don't run out.
e. Recycle the mercury in CFL's.
f. The Xer's/Millies can opt for a direct pay out of $15.00/hr or $17.00/hr paydown on student loan principle. Thrift is a virtue!

3. Government funding reforms
a. Cut defense.
b. Eliminate corporate welfare like oil tax breaks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc.
c. Use reclaimed funds to build out wind farms/solar plants.

Dunno, but they might like it, .... or not. I'm not one of them.

But I would say it again and again. And I am correct.

Obviously, I beg to differ. Maybe you can go and write out a detailed Eric platform. I think mine is pretty specific. There's an utter lack of vague junk like "traditional family values".

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Ha! The wild west was all about gun violence, and so are today's cities.

Actually statistics do not back that statement up. Crime was lower on the frontier than it was in the cities.

That so-called referendum was held under Russian occupation, not conducted by a neutral party. There was no fair choice the way the ballot was written. Maybe the Crimeans would still have voted to join Russia, but there should have been a fair vote. And now Russia is invading Ukraine and supporting foolish, murderous rebels there. They invaded and took over northern Georgia too. The question is, how far will Putin go. And that's not the only question. Another one is, how long will Putin lie and think he can get away with it? And how long will he keep convincing foolish communists like you with his lies?

Crimea is historically a part of Russia, the people there are ethnically Russian, and they speak the Russian language and are culturally Russian. The invasion in Georgia was a border dispute and was settled quickly. The pro-government forces in Ukraine are fascist in nature. The question here Eric is how long will stupid liberals like you continue to swallow Western Lies in order to provoke Russia.

Nothing ever changes, you say, and yet somehow the British evolved from Henry VIII to parliamentary democracy.

Uh yeah they did. British history does not cease to exist because you refuse to acknowledge it.

You guys just kill each other with all your guns. You are not defeating the police; nor will you. Join a new 1960s-style Black Panthers, I guess, and see how far you get.

While the police are the enemy, and are to be feared, they are more likely to jail you than kill you. The slave masters want their slaves back, always have. As for the killing that typically comes from gangsters who have guns first because they are outlaws (so outlawing guns won't work on them--they don't care if they break the law, they do it as part of their job anyways), and second because of the war on drugs has made a black market in those drugs that is highly profitable and yet cannot go to the courts (or advertising agencies) to settle disputes and gain market share like legal corporations do.

Repeating myself makes it right, because you are wrong. I - hope - I - succeeded - in - annoying- you. Bot - out...

Warning, warning, Will Robinson!

Eric, when you are wrong to start with, you are still wrong when you repeat yourself for the thousandth time. No you have not succeeded in annoying me--the more you talk on topics you don't understand the more you make a fool of yourself. A bot would at least have the code to do a google search from time to time.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Obviously, I beg to differ. Maybe you can go and write out a detailed Eric platform. I think mine is pretty specific. There's an utter lack of vague junk like "traditional family values".

I would like to see the Rags' platform sometime. Here is a thumbnail version of mine as it isn't written out, it is in my head...I have a bad habit of not writing things like this down but that habit is for good reasons.

1. End the War on Drugs Now
2. Complete amnesty on all non-violent drug related offenses (IE the records will be expunged).
3. Immediate start up of vital infrastructure construction and repairs using current technology.
A. Update existing Rail
B. Build enough capacity for more passenger rail (and no passenger rail service has ever made a profit so it is going to be state owned)
C. Expansion in major cities of mass transit as is suitable for their needs (Bus, light rail, tram, whatever)
D. Implementation of a national gas tax that is a percentage of the price of gas. (Say 20%, so if gas before taxes costs $4.00 with the tax it now costs $4.80--to force people onto the new trains, busses, trams etc.)
E. Expansion of freight rail capacity to handle extra load from taking a bunch of trucks off the road.
4. Construction of clean energy production where it is not already happening. Windfarms, solar pannels, and yes nuclear energy (probably will have to experiment with the LFTR reactor model for a while)
5. A constitutional amendment to be ratified that declares corporations as property
6. A constitutional amendment to be ratified that declares money is not speech
7. A constitutional amendment ending gerrymandering (California, and Florida already does this).
8. A constitutional amendment or a regular law that provides a mechanism forcing congress to act on a law proposal when a certain number of citizens petition for it. This can possibly be done online.
9. Complete Net Neutrality, regulation of internet access as a utility with subsidies to acheive access for all citizens.
10. Single Payer Health Care (I call it Medicare part E--the E stands for Everybody)
11. Create full employment by any means necessary.
12. Ratification of a bill of social rights to the constitution.



That's off the top of my head of the things that have to happen to have a successful 4T. You will notice I don't mention guns, god, or other cultural issues. The left already won the culture wars.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

I've shot tin cans with my .22 and birds with my 12 gauge. Neither involved other people.

There is no great need for target practice, unless you are practicing to kill people. Of course, in rural areas I understand the need for shotguns, or at least peoples' belief that they need them.

Besides the the War on drugs, there's the jump suit merry go round. People get arrested for trivial things, get a felony rap and that's it. Next it's off to the big house where the ratio of sociopaths to "normal people" is higher. Next they have to join some sort of gang and learn how to manufacture shanks just to survive. Note, gangs are separated by apparent skin color. If you're black, you hook up with the Bloods or Crips, white Aryan Brotherhood, Mexican looking would be Latin Kings, etc. It's rather simple, you can join a gang for self protection or spend your time being somebody's bitch. After you get your felony rap, good luck getting a job when your time is done. My guess is you'll join whatever gang you picked in prison and hook up on the outside. So:
Prison = gang factories.

Good analysis.

I suppose this means you support the Right Sector.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
I suppose I should like them because their colors are black and red.

No, the people who rose up in Kiev are democrats who want more ties to The West. All this nonsense about Nazi groups is just Putin propaganda; anyone who believes it is a fool. So what if there's a fringe group? So, was Occupy a rising of the KKK just because the KKK exists in the USA? Nonsense!

Poking the bear is not a good idea. I also think the USA is hardly in a position to point fingers. In this case there's 1 finger pointing @ Russia and 4 pointing back at the USA.

The USA is the supreme world power, and has some democratic ideals at least. It is important for the USA to speak out and pull some strings and levers. I'm not an extreme anti-American; the USA still has potential, even though it has as many skeletons in its past as any other nation, and even though we need to speak out when it does wrong.

Russia has its own destiny to chart. It's not our place to decide Russia's future choices wrt self governance.

Yes that is true; that's right. But we can wave some carrots and speak out.

In that case there would be even less of a need for NATO than now. It's obsolete.

There might still be some needs, such as helping roll back some genocidal activities.

As I suggested, I would make it obsolete by expanding it to eventually include all law-abiding nations; resulting in a merger with the UN.

Uh, have you checked on actual government results of Russia vs. the USA? Russia's debt levels are far lower than here and well, they do have an effective mass transit system among other things.

According to most indices, Russia is terrible. It's life expectancy is below average. Its economy sucks, and there is little freedom.

If they support da "platform", then sure. It's around someplace around here. But anyhow, if they support
1. Mass transit modernization.
a. Passenger rail
b. busses.
c. shuttles to and from bus hubs.
d. bus to train stations.
[Like why should folks get a car to get to their jobs etc. as the only option?]
2. "Planeteer Platoons" <- If Ted Turner will let me borrow it.
a. pick up endocrine disrupting plastic trash for recycling
b. Smart ones work in chemistry labs to find a more effective way of converting plastic back into feedstocks.
c. Gather aluminum cans. The recycle energy cost is 90% less than making new aluminum.
d. Find some way to mine E-waste for rare earth elements so we don't run out.
e. Recycle the mercury in CFL's.
f. The Xer's/Millies can opt for a direct pay out of $15.00/hr or $17.00/hr paydown on student loan principle. Thrift is a virtue!

3. Government funding reforms
a. Cut defense.
b. Eliminate corporate welfare like oil tax breaks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc.
c. Use reclaimed funds to build out wind farms/solar plants.

Dunno, but they might like it, .... or not. I'm not one of them.

Mostly good ideas.

Obviously, I beg to differ. Maybe you can go and write out a detailed Eric platform. I think mine is pretty specific. There's an utter lack of vague junk like "traditional family values".

We disagree on a few issues like gun control. I don't think it would be a stretch for you to support modest gun regulations like those being proposed. But, nobody is going to agree 100% with someone else. For a platform, the Green Party's is good enough (already posted here by me umteen times). I don't agree 100% with it either though. Maybe I'm not quite as far to the left as some of the Green Party platform writers are right now.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

I would like to see the Rags' platform sometime. Here is a thumbnail version of mine as it isn't written out, it is in my head...I have a bad habit of not writing things like this down but that habit is for good reasons.

1. End the War on Drugs Now
2. Complete amnesty on all non-violent drug related offenses (IE the records will be expunged).
3. Immediate start up of vital infrastructure construction and repairs using current technology.
A. Update existing Rail
B. Build enough capacity for more passenger rail (and no passenger rail service has ever made a profit so it is going to be state owned)
C. Expansion in major cities of mass transit as is suitable for their needs (Bus, light rail, tram, whatever)
D. Implementation of a national gas tax that is a percentage of the price of gas. (Say 20%, so if gas before taxes costs $4.00 with the tax it now costs $4.80--to force people onto the new trains, busses, trams etc.)
E. Expansion of freight rail capacity to handle extra load from taking a bunch of trucks off the road.
4. Construction of clean energy production where it is not already happening. Windfarms, solar panels, and yes nuclear energy (probably will have to experiment with the LFTR reactor model for a while)
5. A constitutional amendment to be ratified that declares corporations as property
6. A constitutional amendment to be ratified that declares money is not speech
7. A constitutional amendment ending gerrymandering (California, and Florida already does this).
8. A constitutional amendment or a regular law that provides a mechanism forcing congress to act on a law proposal when a certain number of citizens petition for it. This can possibly be done online.
9. Complete Net Neutrality, regulation of internet access as a utility with subsidies to achieve access for all citizens.
10. Single Payer Health Care (I call it Medicare part E--the E stands for Everybody)
11. Create full employment by any means necessary.
12. Ratification of a bill of social rights to the constitution.



That's off the top of my head of the things that have to happen to have a successful 4T. You will notice I don't mention guns, god, or other cultural issues. The left already won the culture wars.

I don't see what you gain by hating a potential ally, kinser. I agree with all your proposals. For nuclear, I say yes for experimenting with thorium, and no further conventional plants.

Yes, we disagree on guns. This forum seems to be a magnet for people who disagree with me on the gun issue. OK, so be it. Our disagreements are in the Awakening sphere. But, you and I are not there at the same time, so you could put your hate for me aside if you wished to, during the turning that we live in together.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't see what you gain by hating a potential ally, kinser. I agree with all your proposals. For nuclear, I say yes for experimenting with thorium, and no further conventional plants.

I don't hate you Eric. That would mean that I would have to spend the emotional energy to hate you. Rather I'm pretty much indifferent to you. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.

That being said, when you're wrong, I'm going to point out that you are wrong. You are wrong more often than you are right--and insist that you are right even when you are presented evidence that you are wrong. On the issue of gun rights vs gun control, the gun control lobby has a losing proposition if their goal is to ban firearms. The fact is that disarming the population will backfire and will result in the left and so-called left losing its constituency. The fact is that firearms are part of our culture; left, right and otherwise.

Yes, we disagree on guns. This forum seems to be a magnet for people who disagree with me on the gun issue. OK, so be it. Our disagreements are in the Awakening sphere. But, you and I are not there at the same time, so you could put your hate for me aside if you wished to, during the turning that we live in together.

No it is not an issue of the Awakening, it is one of the Unraveling. It is an issue for now only because many Boomers insist on continuing the culture war--Red and Blue. If the progressive forces are to win they need to drop the culture war bullshit. Younger Xers don't care for that, and Millies hate it. Instead if the Boomers are to take up the mantle that they were supposedly given according to S&H then they need to provide the ideas and leadership necessary to accomplish at least some of the goals I mentioned in my previous post. But they are not. Instead they argue on internet forums over issues that are irrelevant (gun control) or just stupid (should gays have the right to give their former spouses half their shit--IE gay marriage).

Look the younger Xers and Millies have pretty much made their views on Culture War issues clear. Pot legalization? Yes please. End the war on drugs? Of course. Gay marriage? Sure why not. Abortion? Pro-choice (IE the status quo since Roe v. Wade).

Except for the gun issue the left won the culture wars. And even then, if the war on drugs were just ended (not even including all the expunging of records I want) the violence rate in this country would fall dramatically and it is already at low levels anyway.

We have other issues to contend with now during the Crisis.

As to my hate for you...see my first paragraph.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

There is no great need for target practice, unless you are practicing to kill people. Of course, in rural areas I understand the need for shotguns, or at least peoples' belief that they need them.

There is no need for football either but people still play it. Target practice is a recreational activity (my 6 y/o niece rather likes target practice, though how much of that is the target practice and how much of it is spending time with me or her father remains to be seen), although be it one that could be used in certain situations to save your life, unlike say knowing football really well.

No, the people who rose up in Kiev are democrats who want more ties to The West. All this nonsense about Nazi groups is just Putin propaganda; anyone who believes it is a fool. So what if there's a fringe group? So, was Occupy a rising of the KKK just because the KKK exists in the USA? Nonsense!

No it is not nonsense, the right wing groups are the ones forming the militias on the Ukrainian side of the conflict. The Russian population rose up in self-defense as is their tradition and will eventually seek to become part of the Russian Federation because the Russian Federation will not tolerate the existence of those groups unlike the much much weaker and corrupt Ukrainian government.

The USA is the supreme world power, and has some democratic ideals at least. It is important for the USA to speak out and pull some strings and levers. I'm not an extreme anti-American; the USA still has potential, even though it has as many skeletons in its past as any other nation, and even though we need to speak out when it does wrong.

Speaking out is fine, pulling levers not involving a refusal to trade with our enemies (which Russia is not) is an act of war. Have we not had enough of wars of choice? That being said if you wish to have a war with Russia...Russia will win, and Europe will pay the price. Do you really want the US to blow its wad on supporting some third rate nazis? I don't.

Yes that is true; that's right. But we can wave some carrots and speak out.

Russia is not interested in any of our carrots and waving anything at them is considered an act of agression. It is best to leave them alone. Poking a bear is a bad idea. Poking a sleeping bear gets you mauled.

There might still be some needs, such as helping roll back some genocidal activities.

As I suggested, I would make it obsolete by expanding it to eventually include all law-abiding nations; resulting in a merger with the UN.

Two problems with this...the UN charter prevents it from becoming a military alliance and Russia will not join NATO ever as it was designed to contain the USSR to Eastern Europe. NATO is a relic and one that should be put into the attic at the very least.

According to most indices, Russia is terrible. It's life expectancy is below average. Its economy sucks, and there is little freedom.

How old are these indicies you're reading? Russia has improved considerably under Putin.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

I don't hate you Eric. That would mean that I would have to spend the emotional energy to hate you. Rather I'm pretty much indifferent to you. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.

That being said, when you're wrong, I'm going to point out that you are wrong. You are wrong more often than you are right--and insist that you are right even when you are presented evidence that you are wrong. On the issue of gun rights vs gun control, the gun control lobby has a losing proposition if their goal is to ban firearms. The fact is that disarming the population will backfire and will result in the left and so-called left losing its constituency. The fact is that firearms are part of our culture; left, right and otherwise.

You haven't stated any facts there. I am right.

No it is not an issue of the Awakening, it is one of the Unraveling.

I stated our disagreements are mostly about Awakening stuff. Like hippies, spirit, etc.

The gun issue started in the 2T too, with Robert Kennedy's assassination. My involvement with it dates from then too.

It is an issue for now only because many Boomers insist on continuing the culture war--Red and Blue. If the progressive forces are to win they need to drop the culture war bullshit. Younger Xers don't care for that, and Millies hate it. Instead if the Boomers are to take up the mantle that they were supposedly given according to S&H then they need to provide the ideas and leadership necessary to accomplish at least some of the goals I mentioned in my previous post. But they are not. Instead they argue on internet forums over issues that are irrelevant (gun control) or just stupid (should gays have the right to give their former spouses half their shit--IE gay marriage).

Look the younger Xers and Millies have pretty much made their views on Culture War issues clear. Pot legalization? Yes please. End the war on drugs? Of course. Gay marriage? Sure why not. Abortion? Pro-choice (IE the status quo since Roe v. Wade).

Except for the gun issue the left won the culture wars. And even then, if the war on drugs were just ended (not even including all the expunging of records I want) the violence rate in this country would fall dramatically and it is already at low levels anyway.

We have other issues to contend with now during the Crisis.

The culture wars are mostly over and we should move on. But guns are not a culture war issue. It is a public safety issue, and it's relevant. We won't be moving on from it.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You haven't stated any facts there. I am right.

Actually I did. Disarming the population gives ammunition to your enemies at the very least. Even saying it gives ammunition to your enemies so if that is what you want to do, then saying it publicly is rather stupid. If on the other hand you simply want to be a crank then say as much stupid nonsense as you want to. No one really listens to you anyway Eric.

I stated our disagreements are mostly about Awakening stuff. Like hippies, spirit, etc.

Our disagreements don't end there. Your New Age woo-woo incidentally is from the Great Power awakening and not the 1960s.

The gun issue started in the 2T too, with Robert Kennedy's assassination. My involvement with it dates from then too.

I'm sure your involvement with toilet paper predates even that. That doesn't make it an issue surviving the 1T now does it. The fact is that the two camps fought this issue out all through out the 3T and they completely stalemated.

The culture wars are mostly over and we should move on. But guns are not a culture war issue. It is a public safety issue, and it's relevant. We won't be moving on from it.

Eric, attempting to have public safety in relation to gun related deaths and injuries by telling people to not have guns is like telling people to avoid STIs by not having sex. It simply won't work. If you are as concerned about public safety as you say then the solution is mandatory gun safety courses in school, not banning guns which is unenforceable anyway.

Or are you some kind of New Age Neo-Puritan?

The gun control/gun rights issue can be finessed, with a redux of the seemingly-bizarre Missionary alliance of Prohibitionists with women's suffragists - in this case, a coalition of drug legalizers (at least for marijuana, anyway) and concealed-carry advocates; that way, the latter will be able to defend themselves against those taking advantage of the former!

And I've noticed a particular talking point the gun-grabbers have taken up: Namely, that many more victims are killed in successful robberies, etc., than robbers are killed in unsuccessful ones (because the would-be victim was armed). This is fundamentally flawed, because it doesn't count at all how many robberies, etc. are thwarted by armed law-abiding citizens without the criminals being killed, or even injured. It is rather like the common practice of treating an interception as the "opposite" of a touchdown pass thrown by a quarterback, when evaluating what kind of season or career the quarterback is having - when actually, only if the intercepted pass is returned for an immediate touchdown by the defense is an interception the "opposite" of a touchdown pass.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

The gun control/gun rights issue can be finessed, with a redux of the seemingly-bizarre Missionary alliance of Prohibitionists with women's suffragists - in this case, a coalition of drug legalizers (at least for marijuana, anyway) and concealed-carry advocates; that way, the latter will be able to defend themselves against those taking advantage of the former!

And I've noticed a particular talking point the gun-grabbers have taken up: Namely, that many more victims are killed in successful robberies, etc., than robbers are killed in unsuccessful ones (because the would-be victim was armed). This is fundamentally flawed, because it doesn't count at all how many robberies, etc. are thwarted by armed law-abiding citizens without the criminals being killed, or even injured. It is rather like the common practice of treating an interception as the "opposite" of a touchdown pass thrown by a quarterback, when evaluating what kind of season or career the quarterback is having - when actually, only if the intercepted pass is returned for an immediate touchdown by the defense is an interception the "opposite" of a touchdown pass.

The gun lovers think that arming everyone will prevent violence, just like the militarists think that every nation arming itself to the teeth will prevent war. Both are crazy ideas. Nations can't sit on their bayonets. Just look at how many wars America has started since it became an armed camp after WWII. So it is with the people who carry guns. They will just shoot each other and America will look like the Hollywood version of the wild West.

And then there are the leftist revolutionaries like kinser who think individual or private militia rebels with guns can outgun the police and the army. Good luck with that. Your fate will be the same as the Black Panthers. Shot Dead.

Any person can be a "law-abiding" gun owner--- until he becomes non-law abiding, thanks to the easy readiness of his powerful weapon that can kill with one pull of the trigger.

Most of the guns people have are not used for protection. They are picked up in fits of passion and used to kill oneself or others, or they are stolen by criminals and used to rob. And the only way to make a gun safe, is to lock it away so that it is useless for protection.

There is no need for anyone, anywhere, to have a gun. Still, people think that they do need guns. So, the best we can hope for, once the kooky GOP is dislodged from its ill-gotten power, is some degree of compromise that could at least make the USA a somewhat civilized nation, instead of the barbarian snake pit it is now.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The gun lovers think that arming everyone will prevent violence, just like the militarists think that every nation arming itself to the teeth will prevent war. Both are crazy ideas. Nations can't sit on their bayonets. Just look at how many wars America has started since it became an armed camp after WWII. So it is with the people who carry guns. They will just shoot each other and America will look like the Hollywood version of the wild West.

And then there are the leftist revolutionaries like kinser who think individual or private militia rebels with guns can outgun the police and the army. Good luck with that. Your fate will be the same as the Black Panthers. Shot Dead.

Any person can be a "law-abiding" gun owner--- until he becomes non-law abiding, thanks to the easy readiness of his powerful weapon that can kill with one pull of the trigger.

Most of the guns people have are not used for protection. They are picked up in fits of passion and used to kill oneself or others, or they are stolen by criminals and used to rob. And the only way to make a gun safe, is to lock it away so that it is useless for protection.

There is no need for anyone, anywhere, to have a gun. Still, people think that they do need guns. So, the best we can hope for, once the kooky GOP is dislodged from its ill-gotten power, is some degree of compromise that could at least make the USA a somewhat civilized nation, instead of the barbarian snake pit it is now.

I used to do target shooting and plinking but changes in priorities and other factors have prevented me from doing so. As a result, my guns have been mothballed now for the past 14 or so years. A couple of those guns, a S&W .44 mag revolver (like Dirty Harry's) and a Ruger 9MM, are the types that the gun grabbers like you claim will tempt me to go from law abiding to non law abiding. So, during the 14 years of being mothballed, I've dealt with horrible fights with my wife, moments of intense life-questioning personal despair, some suspicious characters roaming the neighborhood, a Mountain Lion walking down the street and a number of other events. Never in response to any of them did I even go down into the storage area to look at my guns. I know they are there. It would take a fairly extreme sequence of events (say, rioters entering the area or a foreign invasion) to make me even so much as look at the weapons to assess their condition.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

There is no great need for target practice, unless you are practicing to kill people. Of course, in rural areas I understand the need for shotguns, or at least peoples' belief that they need them.

I use my .22 to improve my marksmanship. It's related to archery where the goal is to hit the bulls-eye. Working to improve that skill is not related to other people. My .22 has a scope as well. So I practice using the gun with and without the scope. The other option is lining up a tip post between the middle groove thing on the barrel. Below is the .22 I have, A Marlin 980A.



http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...ion22/980S.asp
You can go the the above URL and see for yourself that there's a target icon. That means I'm using my .22 for one of its intended purposes.

No, the people who rose up in Kiev are democrats who want more ties to The West. All this nonsense about Nazi groups is just Putin propaganda; anyone who believes it is a fool. So what if there's a fringe group? So, was Occupy a rising of the KKK just because the KKK exists in the USA? Nonsense!

Nope, they're Neo-Nazis: Here's a quick Google search to make the point.
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...-get-u-s-money
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html
http://journal-neo.org/2014/03/07/bb...med-nazis-led/

Here's your "Arab Spring" linkage.

Originally Posted by Journal-neo.org

Like the West’s support of sectarian terrorists across the Middle East, including Al Qaeda, it has found the most despicable elements in Ukrainian society to lead “revolution” for the sociopolitical reordering of Eastern Europe. As the dust settles and the West’s proxy regime finds itself safely entrenched in Kiev, Ukraine – the Western media can now finally recuperate some of its lost legitimacy after months of denying the obvious – that armed Neo-Nazis led the so-called “Euromaidan” uprising.
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/03/07/bb...med-nazis-led/

I guess that matches the support of those people in Libya
http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-ne...an-government/.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukr...ldiers-n198961

When you have Red, Blue, MSM, and alternative media saying the same thing, I think it's the real deal.
Here's a red site that even smacks down McCain on this one.
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2014/0...kranian-nazis/

The USA is the supreme world power, and has some democratic ideals at least. It is important for the USA to speak out and pull some strings and levers.

No. The US should not interfere in the affairs other other nation states.

I'm not an extreme anti-American; the USA still has potential, even though it has as many skeletons in its past as any other nation, and even though we need to speak out when it does wrong.

Why?

Yes that is true; that's right. But we can wave some carrots and speak out.

I think most nation states would be insulted by that sort of action.

There might still be some needs, such as helping roll back some genocidal activities.

Let's look at that one. How do you square the above with "The Purpose of the Military is to Kill People and Break Things"? The Hutus were doing genocide in Rwanda. Would the purpose of the military be to kill Hutus and break their stuff?

As I suggested, I would make it obsolete by expanding it to eventually include all law-abiding nations; resulting in a merger with the UN.

The UN is here. I really see no purpose in merging a redundant/obsolete organization with something else.
For example, given the geography and nation state properties, Russia and German make good trading partners.

According to most indices, Russia is terrible. It's life expectancy is below average. Its economy sucks, and there is little freedom.

That was during the Soviet era. Now under its collapse under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, things have improved.
I think the most remarkable thing is the relative lack of violence. Both Gorbachev and Yeltsin are great men of history for pulling that off.

We disagree on a few issues like gun control. I don't think it would be a stretch for you to support modest gun regulations like those being proposed. But, nobody is going to agree 100% with someone else. For a platform, the Green Party's is good enough (already posted here by me umteen times). I don't agree 100% with it either though. Maybe I'm not quite as far to the left as some of the Green Party platform writers are right now.

That would be a stalemate.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

I use my .22 to improve my marksmanship. It's related to archery where the goal is to hit the bulls-eye. Working to improve that skill is not related to other people. My .22 has a scope as well. So I practice using the gun with and without the scope. The other option is lining up a tip post between the middle groove thing on the barrel. Below is the .22 I have, A Marlin 980A.



http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...ion22/980S.asp
You can go the the above URL and see for yourself that there's a target icon. That means I'm using my .22 for one of its intended purposes.

Nah; the only reason to practice hitting the target, is to shoot something. If you think you are a hunter out in the woods and you think you need to shoot a rabbit, then that's the target. If you live in a city the only potential target is people.

Nope, they're Neo-Nazis: Here's a quick Google search to make the point.
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...-get-u-s-money
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html
http://journal-neo.org/2014/03/07/bb...med-nazis-led/

Here's your "Arab Spring" linkage.

Nope. The reports were clear that these were young people rising in the streets, deposing a corrupt tyrant. That's the Arab Spring link. These conspiracy theory links are nonsense. A fringe group does not identify a nation. The KKK is not the USA.

I guess that matches the support of those people in Libya
http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-ne...an-government/.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukr...ldiers-n198961

When you have Red, Blue, MSM, and alternative media saying the same thing, I think it's the real deal.
Here's a red site that even smacks down McCain on this one.
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2014/0...kranian-nazis/

The people rose up in Libya to depose Qaddafi. They did it with help from NATO, permitted by the UN. A good idea? That's debatable. It seemed a good idea to me at the time, to save some people from the kind of massacre that we failed to save the people of Syria from. The mission creeped and it became help to overthrow Qaddafi. But there was no follow up, to help Libyans establish a new state and rule of law. Libya had no basis for such. Some help was needed. Was that a potential quagmire? One could be excused for saying so. But now it's up to Libyans to try and remake their country.

No. The US should not interfere in the affairs other other nation states.

You can pulls strings and levers without getting involved directly in wars. The USA needs to do that in concert with other nations. There needs to be rule of international law.

Why?

I think most nation states would be insulted by that sort of action.

So, the tyrants can be insulted. I don't care.

Let's look at that one. How do you square the above with "The Purpose of the Military is to Kill People and Break Things"? The Hutus were doing genocide in Rwanda. Would the purpose of the military be to kill Hutus and break their stuff?

It's called international law. In our age, anarchy is not workable. Libertarians are obviously wrong. Deregulate industry, and a few greedy barons take over a market. So, we need police, and they need guns right now, because otherwise they are outgunned by all the individuals and criminals who think they have a "right to bear arms."

The UN is here. I really see no purpose in merging a redundant/obsolete organization with something else.
For example, given the geography and nation state properties, Russia and German make good trading partners.

They ARE trading partners; so are China and the USA. That has nothing to do with alliances.

That was during the Soviet era. Now under its collapse under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, things have improved.
I think the most remarkable thing is the relative lack of violence. Both Gorbachev and Yeltsin are great men of history for pulling that off.

Yes, but what exists now is not much better. Russia is a mess, seemingly forever. But I suppose there has been some gradual improvement, over the very long term. But don't kid yourself that Russia has been liberated. Putin is a tyrant and a plutocratic overlord.

That would be a stalemate.

My only point is that if you ask me for a platform, I can point to the Green Party's. But nobody's platform is completely perfect from my point of view; even my own.

Eric, I know a lot of city folks who hunt. Also, I shoot paper to shoot paper. I never ever want to shoot a person and I got rid of my gun because I have small kids and don't need it in the house. But I still shoot to relax.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Eric, I know a lot of city folks who hunt.

But they don't need to, and really, today, no-one needs to.

Also, I shoot paper to shoot paper. I never ever want to shoot a person and I got rid of my gun because I have small kids and don't need it in the house. But I still shoot to relax.

Right, but shooting target practice really is only practicing to shoot something. People would lose nothing else if guns disappeared. But since guns won't disappear for now anyway, the only real question is, why resist a few reasonable regulations just because the gun lovers, the NRA and libertarians say no? Proper regulations will not take your relaxation method away, even though there are far better methods.

If the gun debate is part of the culture wars, then as you suggested, willingness to compromise seems timely now if we want to move beyond endless, silly debates. The gun debate is depressing and tiresome. I'm all for moving beyond it. Once the GOP gets its walking papers, then maybe we can.

Really simple here, Eric. The majority have moved on past the culture wars. The majority of Boomers are going to be arguing this to their graves, but they're going to be a smaller and smaller segment of the population, and at a certain point it's just going to be shut out of the national conversation entirely. Look at how quickly the conversation turned from guns, with bitter resignation, an argument with a physically measurable impact either way, to the confederate (battle) flag, which is purely a symbolic gesture. This shows that 1) it's a symbolic culture war issue to most people, and 2) therefore the compromises are likely to be negotiated not within each issue but in the overall context of society.

So, while I personally have certain misgivings with regard to how we're treating the victims' families in all of this with regard to politicizing their deaths before they're even buried, this is probably the most the anti-redneck crowd is going to get. Meanwhile, gun regulation is moot because technology makes it too easy to circumvent regulation, and therefore the gun portion of the culture war is a foregone conclusion.

Meanwhile, there's a third factor involved, which is the count down. Most people are growing tired of the culture war, and would ultimately prefer that both sides shut up. It's an increasingly large impetus that I'm seeing in the conversation: the goal not being to shut one side or the other down, just being to derail the whole thing and make both sides look and feel unwelcome.

That's how I think this whole thing ends: when Millennials come into their own, they're going to just shut the whole thing down by voicing new opinions with regard to what they want to debate about.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Hopefully, Millies won't give a flying fuck on the gun debate and take note that foreign policy based on naive idealism is a no go. Word: realpolitik.


What do y'all Millies think of ending all wars of choice [including the War on Drugs] ?
Next up, do y'all think Boomers should shut their collective pieholes wrt guns?

Signed,

Rags - Jones Xer.

Millennials could give a flying fuck less about guns, have them don't have them whatever you want just dont shoot anyone.

Millennials by and far think most recreational drugs need to be DECRIMINALIZED the war on drugs plays directly into the militarized police issue.

The only person I have spoken too in seriousness about the most recent shooting is my dad (boomer) millennials honestly aren't even paying attention its become un-important background noise. Boomers are focusing on "why" he killed those people, and he has some crazy ass reason but the truth is that kid is nuts, he would have found some reason to kill them or someone else for some reason.

as for flying the confederate flag, alright I get it its controversial so if the states want to take it down fine...if retailers don't want to sell it..ok that's their prerogative. I just see it as a meaningless reactionary gesture, some psycho posed with it therefore we should remove it from public....why? what are we accomplishing besides appeasing a couple of hardcore southern democrats and giving them some meaningless symbolic victory over....flags?

IDK i feel like most millennials just haven't been fired up since OWS simmered, there is sort of a prevailing feeling that all these issues are nonsense and the real issue is....well out there... and we all sort of know it needs to be dealt with soon.


side note: Eric I'm still reading your posts in this thread via catch up, your opinions are so lock-step with the progressive left it borders on satirical. There is no way you agree with them 100% of the time on everything and truly believe they are the only solution...can you? Please someone tell me he is joking... anyone?

Originally Posted by Kinser79

The fact is that the two camps fought this issue out all through out the 3T and they completely stalemated.

Stalemate? The Red side won. It was a rout.

Originally Posted by Debol1990

Boomers are focusing on "why" he killed those people, and he has some crazy ass reason but the truth is that kid is nuts, he would have found some reason to kill them or someone else for some reason.

The US stands out alone amongst its peer nations in the sheer number of these shooting rampages. Are you saying that a larger fraction of Americans are nuts than in other advanced countries?

I don't think the guy sounds all that crazy to me. What he did was like a lynching, which has happened many hundreds of times, often in front of large crowds. Were all those people nuts too? I believe when they tried to outlaw lynching, there were filibusters against it. Were those senators nuts?

Originally Posted by Kepi

Really simple here, Eric. The majority have moved on past the culture wars.

Oh I don't think so. What, do think Millennials don't give a shit about gay marriage? If you look at the Culture war none of them are likely to "fade away" unresolved. Gay marriage is going to win. The pro-gun folks won.

Culture war issues still to be resolved are things like policing methods, the drug war, and the incarceration fetish. I don't think Millennials are more disinterested in these issues that other generations. These also are part of the culture wars and date from more than 40 years ago.

I think gay marriage would take a back burner to substantive issues if we were to actually talk about those. Right now they take what they can get.

As far as policing, the drug war, and incarceration, I think that's actually just a very standard tear down of something common that prophet generations do. I don't think it's much of a culture war issue because the left is as responsible for the over proliferation of terrible laws, overpunishment and generalized stupidity as the right is. It's just that same old mentality that prophets have that they should be able to exclude anyone they don't like from society. See the excess increase in school punishments for this as well and note that the punishments are generally designed to exclude certain students rather than to reform them.