Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: "Right Wing" (e.g. Faux Right) Revolutionaries







Post#1 at 06-19-2015 12:38 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
---
06-19-2015, 12:38 PM #1
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
3,073

"Right Wing" (e.g. Faux Right) Revolutionaries

I'm sick of these traitors who think it is "Right Wing" to do things like trying to start a race war, attacking the government, or really, inciting any sort of domestic warfare or terrorism of any kind. It is not Right Wing at all. Burke would say off with their heads.

Right Wing is paying homage to nation, king, fellow countrymen and history. That is real Right Wing, as classically defined in Mother Europe.

Federal treason charges should be pursued against all revolutionaries of all stripes who seek to destroy, harm or undermine the pillars of our Civilization. And the maximum penalty needs to be applied.

Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters and termites who will destroy everything we care about if they are not stopped.







Post#2 at 06-19-2015 01:22 PM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
06-19-2015, 01:22 PM #2
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
It is not Right Wing at all. Burke would say off with their heads.
But what would Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Mike Royko, even Gus Hall say about gay marriages, partial-birth abortion, etc.?



Right Wing is paying homage to nation, king, fellow countrymen and history. That is real Right Wing, as classically defined in Mother Europe.
So was Left Wing - until about 50 years ago.



Federal treason charges should be pursued against all revolutionaries of all stripes who seek to destroy, harm or undermine the pillars of our Civilization. And the maximum penalty needs to be applied.

Define "seek." If it's seek through speech, then you might find Putin's Russia or Khamenei's Iran more to your liking.



Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters and termites who will destroy everything we care about if they are not stopped.
Two years from now you might be playing a different tune, if the Republicans win in 2016.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#3 at 06-19-2015 01:30 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
---
06-19-2015, 01:30 PM #3
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
3,073

Speech does not rise to the level of treason.

There are plenty of dangerous fanatics already going far beyond speech. Hunt them down.

To give due credit, a lot of this is already happening. But there needs to be more of it. The funding priority is a no brainer.

I am interested to see the impact Lynch' more aggressive style will have on this arena.







Post#4 at 06-19-2015 03:30 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
---
06-19-2015, 03:30 PM #4
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
3,073

Some developments in the case of the traitor / revolutionary who attacked Emmanuel Church in Charleston with the expressed intent of trying to start a race war or civil war. I have not heard of any Fed prosecution yet. In any case Nimrata has advised her AG to seek the death penalty in the South Carolina case.







Post#5 at 06-19-2015 03:32 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
06-19-2015, 03:32 PM #5
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
I'm sick of these traitors who think it is "Right Wing" to do things like trying to start a race war, attacking the government, or really, inciting any sort of domestic warfare or terrorism of any kind. It is not Right Wing at all. Burke would say off with their heads.
With this I concur. One is not a true patriot unless that patriotism extends to all Americans irrespective of race, religion, ethnicity, or national origin. I need not be a Muslim to say "Leave my Muslim brethren alone!" Elections have consequences, and anyone fairly elected to political office deserves our respect for that alone,at least until that pol betrays our trust.

No matter how much foreboding and contempt I developed about Dubya I had some respect for the people who voted for him. Would that people who have similar contempt and foreboding about President Obama would show such respect! I have heard people suggest a military coup as a solution to the President that they dislike.

I can't speak for the military, but I see a good case for a cautious President who doesn't stir up trouble. Such is no guarantee of excellent leadership in wartime... but that describes Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR, all of whom were fine wartime Presidents. One need not like war to be a fine wartime leader. Or as Robert Heinlein put it in one of his books, "Don't seek adventure; it will find you".

Right Wing is paying homage to nation, king, fellow countrymen and history. That is real Right Wing, as classically defined in Mother Europe.
OK, I would betray a genocidal regime in America to any enemy of that regime -- even if doing so implied fealty to the Emperor of Japan. I have more in common with a Japanese (or Javanese) liberal than with an American fascist.

Federal treason charges should be pursued against all revolutionaries of all stripes who seek to destroy, harm or undermine the pillars of our Civilization. And the maximum penalty needs to be applied.
Most disloyal acts (espionage, sabotage, collaboration, mutiny, treachery, enslavement, and above all genocide) are already serious crimes with penalties potentially as severe as those for treason. Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution has a very narrow definition of treason.

Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters and termites who will destroy everything we care about if they are not stopped.
I'll make exceptions of the heroes of 1776.... and the would-be heroes of July 20, 1944.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 06-20-2015 at 11:11 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#6 at 06-19-2015 04:12 PM by Kinser79 [at joined Jun 2012 #posts 2,897]
---
06-19-2015, 04:12 PM #6
Join Date
Jun 2012
Posts
2,897

Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
But what would Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Mike Royko, even Gus Hall say about gay marriages, partial-birth abortion, etc.
I won't speak for the other two but I met Gus Hall once (he was very old and partially retired but still made time to meet up and comers in the YCL USA). The issue of gay mariage did come up at that meeting and his feeling about it were that gays have the same right to marry as straights. Partial birth abortion did not come up but the CPUSA's line on abortion in general is pro-choice. Personally I think the whole "partial-birth abortion" thing is overblown. Most women can tell when they are pregnant before their water breaks.







Post#7 at 06-22-2015 07:28 PM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
06-22-2015, 07:28 PM #7
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
Some developments in the case of the traitor / revolutionary who attacked Emmanuel Church in Charleston with the expressed intent of trying to start a race war or civil war. I have not heard of any Fed prosecution yet. In any case Nimrata has advised her AG to seek the death penalty in the South Carolina case.

While The Boy Named Dylann is definitely a terrorist - at least as per my definition of terrorism, which is, in full: "Any violent or destructive act committed for political or pseudo-political reasons (the latter included so as to encompass "hate crimes") against persons not known personally to the actor (thus ruling out any personal revenge motive), and against persons who cannot be reasonably considered to have had anything to do with causing the grievances the actor seeks to redress (thus ruling out assassinations)" - how is he any kind of traitor?

He certainly wasn't "levying war against the United States" - and under no circumstances was he "adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort."
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#8 at 01-27-2016 06:16 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
---
01-27-2016, 06:16 PM #8
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
3,073

No doubt many of you have seen the new stories. The Oregon standoff between nutjob "rump militias" and the FBI turned bloody.

One of the crazies charged an officer during a traffic stop on US-395 and was shot dead.

The FBI have sealed off a perimeter around the occupied portion of the refuge and my guess is they plan to move in soon the arrest any who are dumb enough to still be there.







Post#9 at 01-27-2016 07:39 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-27-2016, 07:39 PM #9
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
No doubt many of you have seen the new stories. The Oregon standoff between nutjob "rump militias" and the FBI turned bloody.

One of the crazies charged an officer during a traffic stop on US-395 and was shot dead.

The FBI have sealed off a perimeter around the occupied portion of the refuge and my guess is they plan to move in soon the arrest any who are dumb enough to still be there.
That kind of BS needs to always be nipped in the bud with great harshness lest it legitimize warlordism.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10 at 01-27-2016 07:49 PM by B Butler [at joined Nov 2011 #posts 2,329]
---
01-27-2016, 07:49 PM #10
Join Date
Nov 2011
Posts
2,329

Left Arrow Nipping

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
That kind of BS needs to always be nipped in the bud with great harshness lest it legitimize warlordism.
The above seemed to be the idea before Waco, Ruby Ridge and OKC. The alternative is to try to avoid a spiral of violence that might escalate the conflict. Discouraging repeat performances while minimizing violence and avoiding any perception of 'glory' in opposing the feds requires a bit of nuance. I think the feds erred a bit on the side of patience, but won't grumble too loudly.

The feds did create a martyr of sorts. So long as the typical rump militia member understand that he was more idiot than martyr, this might be OK. Not sure the typical rump militia member would see it that way.







Post#11 at 01-27-2016 09:03 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
01-27-2016, 09:03 PM #11
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Suicide by cop. Pathetic way to go.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12 at 01-29-2016 01:54 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
---
01-29-2016, 01:54 PM #12
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
3,073

I saw the video this AM.

So, the loon appears to pull over for one of the FBI SUVs, but then he guns it and tries to run away (dumb move #1). He goes a couple of miles then encounters a road black at a point where there are road cuts on both sides of the road. He veers left attempting to go around the block, then his pickup truck gets stuck in the snow. He then gets out with his hands up, but then, apparently realizing there's an agent uphill from him behind a pine tree, puts his hands down and makes a sudden jink, seemingly starting to run away, while at the same time appearing to reach toward his hip.

BLAM!

Game over dude.







Post#13 at 02-02-2016 12:18 AM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
---
02-02-2016, 12:18 AM #13
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
562

Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters...

Remember this sentiment, and the kind of person who says things like this.

If citizens do not have right of redress, then the "government" that lords over them starts losing legitimacy quite rapidly. A bunch of middle aged white people staged an old fashioned hippie sit in protest at an out of the way government building. They are protesting the re-sentencing of two people who already served their jail sentence. As far as I know, trespassing is not a crime that is punishable by summary execution.

So these peaceful people are on their way to a town meeting, and are dry gulched by some "government" goons. The glorious people's government agents murder a harmless old man in cold blood. They shot him in the face when he was on his knees. There was no danger to any of these weak "government" men, but they felt they had a right to murder.

To cheer on this kind of behavior against your fellow citizens is monstrous. How would you like it if people cheered on a murderous rampage against you, or people you care about?

If you can't effect change through the political process, the next step is protest. If protest is stymied, the next step is insurrection. If insurrection is temporarily quashed, you will have a revolution. These are all possibilities, depending on how deep the rift is between people and the government.

You know what a terrorist is? An enemy of the State. That's all. You should be careful with your thoughts and feelings, because anyone who feels strongly about political issues is a potential enemy of the State. The idea that any of the common citizenry has power or influence is a lie, and cheering for the death of your ideological enemies at the ring of your master's bell isn't going to solve any problems.

What goal is so important that it makes you happy to see someone murdered?







Post#14 at 02-02-2016 12:59 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
02-02-2016, 12:59 AM #14
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters...

Remember this sentiment, and the kind of person who says things like this.

If citizens do not have right of redress, then the "government" that lords over them starts losing legitimacy quite rapidly. A bunch of middle aged white people staged an old fashioned hippie sit in protest at an out of the way government building. They are protesting the re-sentencing of two people who already served their jail sentence. As far as I know, trespassing is not a crime that is punishable by summary execution.

So these peaceful people are on their way to a town meeting, and are dry gulched by some "government" goons. The glorious people's government agents murder a harmless old man in cold blood. They shot him in the face when he was on his knees. There was no danger to any of these weak "government" men, but they felt they had a right to murder.

To cheer on this kind of behavior against your fellow citizens is monstrous. How would you like it if people cheered on a murderous rampage against you, or people you care about?

If you can't effect change through the political process, the next step is protest. If protest is stymied, the next step is insurrection. If insurrection is temporarily quashed, you will have a revolution. These are all possibilities, depending on how deep the rift is between people and the government.

You know what a terrorist is? An enemy of the State. That's all. You should be careful with your thoughts and feelings, because anyone who feels strongly about political issues is a potential enemy of the State. The idea that any of the common citizenry has power or influence is a lie, and cheering for the death of your ideological enemies at the ring of your master's bell isn't going to solve any problems.

What goal is so important that it makes you happy to see someone murdered?
You are defending the terrorist lunatics in Oregon? Are you out of your mind? These are fanatical idiots who don't believe in public land and want to trample a wildlife refuge with their cattle.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#15 at 02-02-2016 01:25 AM by MordecaiK [at joined Mar 2014 #posts 1,086]
---
02-02-2016, 01:25 AM #15
Join Date
Mar 2014
Posts
1,086

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
That kind of BS needs to always be nipped in the bud with great harshness lest it legitimize warlordism.
If we allow armed groups to establish enclaves, regardless of the legitimacy of their cause, this establishes a precedent for cults like Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (Warren Jeff's polygamists) in Hilldale AZ-Colorado City UT. Or for that matter, Muslim Sharia ruled enclaves and "no-go zones" as has been the case in Europe.







Post#16 at 02-02-2016 01:55 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
02-02-2016, 01:55 AM #16
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters...

Remember this sentiment, and the kind of person who says things like this.

If citizens do not have right of redress, then the "government" that lords over them starts losing legitimacy quite rapidly. A bunch of middle aged white people staged an old fashioned hippie sit in protest at an out of the way government building. They are protesting the re-sentencing of two people who already served their jail sentence. As far as I know, trespassing is not a crime that is punishable by summary execution.
Resisting a lawful arrest with with deadly force compels the police to react appropriately, including if necessary deadly force. For all practical purposes such is 'suicide by cop', no matter how innocent one may be. The decision of guilt or innocence lies with a court of law, including if necessary a jury -- and not with the person being arrested.

So these peaceful people are on their way to a town meeting, and are dry gulched by some "government" goons. The glorious people's government agents murder a harmless old man in cold blood. They shot him in the face when he was on his knees. There was no danger to any of these weak "government" men, but they felt they had a right to murder.
You would be surprised at how old one can be while in possession of a firearm and capable of killing with it. Think of James von Brunn, who was 88 when he shot up the US Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. and killed a security guard. He died before he could have gone on trial.

OK, so this man went far beyond the line of acceptability.

To cheer on this kind of behavior against your fellow citizens is monstrous. How would you like it if people cheered on a murderous rampage against you, or people you care about?
Did anyone cheer on Dylann Roof, alleged mass-killer in a church in Charleston, South Carolina? You can trust that we liberals oppose any unjustifiable killing, especially by the police.

If you can't effect change through the political process, the next step is protest. If protest is stymied, the next step is insurrection. If insurrection is temporarily quashed, you will have a revolution. These are all possibilities, depending on how deep the rift is between people and the government.
This was an illegal takeover of federal property. Would you accept the takeover of a post office as a legitimate form of protest?

OK. Show me where the revolution is.

You know what a terrorist is? An enemy of the State. That's all. You should be careful with your thoughts and feelings, because anyone who feels strongly about political issues is a potential enemy of the State. The idea that any of the common citizenry has power or influence is a lie, and cheering for the death of your ideological enemies at the ring of your master's bell isn't going to solve any problems.
A terrorist uses violent acts, plots violent acts, or conspires to make violent acts possible, against the government or anything with political significance (including human rights).

What goal is so important that it makes you happy to see someone murdered?
The police do not have the questionable duty to be killed in cold blood.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#17 at 02-02-2016 11:33 AM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
---
02-02-2016, 11:33 AM #17
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
3,073

Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters...

Remember this sentiment, and the kind of person who says things like this.

If citizens do not have right of redress, then the "government" that lords over them starts losing legitimacy quite rapidly. A bunch of middle aged white people staged an old fashioned hippie sit in protest at an out of the way government building. They are protesting the re-sentencing of two people who already served their jail sentence. As far as I know, trespassing is not a crime that is punishable by summary execution.

So these peaceful people are on their way to a town meeting, and are dry gulched by some "government" goons. The glorious people's government agents murder a harmless old man in cold blood. They shot him in the face when he was on his knees. There was no danger to any of these weak "government" men, but they felt they had a right to murder.

To cheer on this kind of behavior against your fellow citizens is monstrous. How would you like it if people cheered on a murderous rampage against you, or people you care about?

If you can't effect change through the political process, the next step is protest. If protest is stymied, the next step is insurrection. If insurrection is temporarily quashed, you will have a revolution. These are all possibilities, depending on how deep the rift is between people and the government.

You know what a terrorist is? An enemy of the State. That's all. You should be careful with your thoughts and feelings, because anyone who feels strongly about political issues is a potential enemy of the State. The idea that any of the common citizenry has power or influence is a lie, and cheering for the death of your ideological enemies at the ring of your master's bell isn't going to solve any problems.

What goal is so important that it makes you happy to see someone murdered?
Not sure which video you saw pal, the one I saw did not show someone on their knees. Did you even watch it?







Post#18 at 02-02-2016 11:59 AM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
---
02-02-2016, 11:59 AM #18
Join Date
Sep 2009
Location
Alabama
Posts
1,595

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Resisting a lawful arrest with with deadly force compels the police to react appropriately, including if necessary deadly force. For all practical purposes such is 'suicide by cop', no matter how innocent one may be. The decision of guilt or innocence lies with a court of law, including if necessary a jury -- and not with the person being arrested.

You would be surprised at how old one can be while in possession of a firearm and capable of killing with it. Think of James von Brunn, who was 88 when he shot up the US Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. and killed a security guard. He died before he could have gone on trial.

OK, so this man went far beyond the line of acceptability.



Did anyone cheer on Dylann Roof, alleged mass-killer in a church in Charleston, South Carolina? You can trust that we liberals oppose any unjustifiable killing, especially by the police.

This was an illegal takeover of federal property. Would you accept the takeover of a post office as a legitimate form of protest?

OK. Show me where the revolution is.

A terrorist uses violent acts, plots violent acts, or conspires to make violent acts possible, against the government or anything with political significance (including human rights).

The police do not have the questionable duty to be killed in cold blood.
Good post,thanks. The following definition for terrorism is just for reference.



https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investi...ism-definition


… ""International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

  • Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
  • Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
  • Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

  • Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
  • Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
  • Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.”…







Post#19 at 02-04-2016 01:32 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
02-04-2016, 01:32 AM #19
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

(Reuters) - A U.S. grand jury returned an indictment on Wednesday against 16 people in connection with the armed occupation of a wildlife refuge in Oregon, prosecutors said.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Portland did not disclose the charges contained in the indictment, which has been sealed, but said it would likely be made public soon. A previous criminal complaint charged 11 former occupiers with conspiracy to impede federal officers.

(Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis in Los Angeles; Editing by Dan Whitcomb and Sandra Maler)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...83043469500171

Let the legal system take its course.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#20 at 02-04-2016 02:27 AM by MordecaiK [at joined Mar 2014 #posts 1,086]
---
02-04-2016, 02:27 AM #20
Join Date
Mar 2014
Posts
1,086

[QUOTE]
Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Resisting a lawful arrest with with deadly force compels the police to react appropriately, including if necessary deadly force. For all practical purposes such is 'suicide by cop', no matter how innocent one may be. The decision of guilt or innocence lies with a court of law, including if necessary a jury -- and not with the person being arrested.
Remember the definition of treason in the Constitution? The first part that says "Treason shall consist of rebellion against the government of the United States or....."
Law enforcement takes that definition seriously even if prosecutors rarely do. Taking over a government owned building by force of arms is rebellion against the United States and therefore treason, according to the old Constitutional definition. George Washington actually TOOK THE FIELD at the head of an army when frontiersmen in Pennsylvania refused to pay a whiskey tax (the rebels backed down and there was no loss of life).
Even civil disobedience (as long as it is passive, as in a sit-in) is basically a dance in which both sides play according to certain rules. No violence. No weapons. Arrest after photo ops by press or social media. And in return, no felony prosecution. That is a matter of custom rather than law. Blockades, no matter how peaceful for whatever cause are pushing the envelope. Whether the blockade is Ammon Bundy & Co. occupying a federal wildlife facility or environmentalists tree sitting in Texas to try to stop the Keystone oil pipeline (Keystone A got built and is in operation). That's why there is so much news coverage about how the locals in Burns OR want these protestors to just go home. People like Naomi Klein and Bill McKibben push the envelope when they advocate blockades. What was acceptable civil disobedience and unacceptable disobedience was worked out over decades in labour disputes such as the Flint Strike in the 1930s and the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s. Campus building occupations were not acceptable and students in California are paying through the nose for tuition today because then Governor Reagan was able to end free tuition because students were seen by the California electorate then as traitors.
Waco was a case in which the federal government handled the situation totally wrong. Janet Reno listened to the wrong people and the FBI staged a raid when they should have arrested David Koresh the next time he went to Waco on weapons charges. Once the Branch Davidians killed those federal agents, law enforcement treated what the Branch Davidians were doing unofficially as treason and rebellion against the United States. They were determined that unless the Branch Davidians surrendered unconditionally, all of their lives were forfeit. Including apparently the children. That is why the feds finally pumped in flammable tear gas and then set off flash bangs to ignite the tear gas. And yes, shot people trying to escape the flames. It was wrong. If the FBI did not have trained counter-terrorist operatives who could storm the compound and at least save the children, they should have brought in Delta Force or some of the SEAL Teams. The Brits and the Aussies do this all of the time with the SAS. Frankly, what the FBI did at Waco was cowardly, killing children rather than exposing federal personnel to ANY level of risk. But it's a logic I can understand even if I don't condone it, given that Waco was being treated as treason.

You would be surprised at how old one can be while in possession of a firearm and capable of killing with it. Think of James von Brunn, who was 88 when he shot up the US Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. and killed a security guard. He died before he could have gone on trial.

OK, so this man went far beyond the line of acceptability.



Did anyone cheer on Dylann Roof, alleged mass-killer in a church in Charleston, South Carolina? You can trust that we liberals oppose any unjustifiable killing, especially by the police.



This was an illegal takeover of federal property. Would you accept the takeover of a post office as a legitimate form of protest?

OK. Show me where the revolution is.



A terrorist uses violent acts, plots violent acts, or conspires to make violent acts possible, against the government or anything with political significance (including human rights).
The police do not have the questionable duty to be killed in cold blood.
[/QUOTE
When police burn people alive rather than go in and do what is needed to save hostages, they are behaving in a cowardly manner. Police have received a huge amount of military equipment and training since 9/11, including body armour. If police are being trained by Navy SEALS to behave like SEALS, they incur the duty to take the risks that SEALS take and handle situations professionally to save as many innocent lives as possible and apprehend suspects as safely as possible. And this not only applies to hostage situations but to normal calls. The idea that police should refrain from taking any risks, but simply arrive on a crime scene after what has happened has happened or kill someone out of hand who looks like he or she MIGHT POSSIBLY be armed and reaching for a weapon does not cut it. This is where police need to be armoured up so that they can TAKE a few more risks safely and not draw and shoot at the slightest possibility of an armed suspect, so that they can close with a suspect and disarm an armed suspect without lethal force unless there are innocent bystanders present who might be killed and do so without risking their lives. To do otherwise, especially on a routine basis DOES turn police into an occupying army.
I think that we all went a little crazy in the 90s and 2000s because of the perceived threat of a crime wave that may have been driven by lead poisoning and then by 9'11. This sort of thing commonly happens during 3T unravellings. Britain's Official Secrets Act, for instance, was passed in 1911. And the Espionage Act that the US would like to prosecute Julian Assange with (along with a Sedition Act later declared unconstitutional) was passed in 1917.







Post#21 at 02-13-2016 12:14 AM by Einzige [at Illinois joined Apr 2013 #posts 824]
---
02-13-2016, 12:14 AM #21
Join Date
Apr 2013
Location
Illinois
Posts
824

Under certain conditions - Weimar Germany, say - it'd be very easy for me to sympathize with the "revolutionary Right" because their aims were so different.

I have absolutely no respect for Cliven Bundy or the New Sagebrush Rebels. Someone like Ernst Jünger was different; the German Revolutionary Right had no truck at all with the bourgeois cult of individualism and liberal capitalism. Radical atomic individualism is the greatest danger to civilization today, and its proponents are mostly the Cliven Bundy wannabe-Clint Eastwoods of the world.

It's strange to know that in another time and place you'd have been a far-rightist, but that in one's current context you have to be sympathetic towards the Left. I suppose the difference is that the Revolutionary Right of Jünger's day were nationalist anti-capitalists, while these morons are basically stalking horses for big business to scoop up Federal land in the West.
Last edited by Einzige; 02-13-2016 at 12:16 AM.
Things are gonna slide
Slide in all directions
Won't be nothin'
Nothin' you can measure anymore

The blizzard of the world has crossed the threshold
And it has overturned the order of the soul
When they said REPENT (repent), I wonder what they meant

I've seen the future, brother:
It is murder

- Leonard Cohen, "The Future" (1992)







Post#22 at 02-21-2016 10:31 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
02-21-2016, 10:31 AM #22
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

Violent revolution; i.e., the use of violence in a misguided effort to bring about social change, is, as former arch-liberal mayor of New York City, put it, cowardly and immoral; and there is no excuse - ever - for collaborating or sympathizing with a foreign enemy, as Huey Newton did when he declared that "I think the Viet Cong are 100 per cent right, and the United States is 500 per cent wrong."

This is why what Beyoncé did at the Super Bowl has kicked up such a hornet's nest.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#23 at 03-26-2016 08:37 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
03-26-2016, 08:37 PM #23
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

The occupation has already cost upwards of $9 million.
Feces and trash litter the property.
Officials are worried Native American artifacts have been damaged.

The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge “occupation” ended more than a month ago, yet the damage caused by the armed militants, who gathered to protest the federal government’s management of public lands, remains.

Photos posted online by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service earlier this week give a peek into how the occupiers would, apparently, prefer to manage public lands, given the chance to do it themselves:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b014d3fe22eff9

...I wouldn't trust these people with stewardship of the environment, antiquities or relics, or much of anything else.



Probable assistance for making their 'executive' decisions:



If I had responsibility for an office, and you were my subordinate, you would be fired if you left this sort of damage:



No Boy Scouts would ever leave a campground so trashed:



US Fish and Wildlife Service; thus public domain.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#24 at 03-26-2016 09:47 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
---
03-26-2016, 09:47 PM #24
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
I'm sick of these traitors who think it is "Right Wing" to do things like trying to start a race war, attacking the government, or really, inciting any sort of domestic warfare or terrorism of any kind. It is not Right Wing at all. Burke would say off with their heads.
How about banksters who have robbed the nation, home owners, and even their very own shareholders blind? Why haven't the CEO's bonuses been clawed back. Why aren't the ne'er do wells sitting in jail, wearing orange jumpsuits. By jail, I mean the same joints us proles get sent to.

Right Wing is paying homage to nation, king, fellow countrymen and history. That is real Right Wing, as classically defined in Mother Europe.
Does the "king" include or exclude the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc.? In the Anglo Sphere, a man's house is his castle. These entities are violating the constitution with warrantless wiretaps and cyber snooping on US citizens. That stuff is clearly unconstitutional amendment.

Quote Originally Posted by wiki
The concepts codified in these amendments are built upon those found in several earlier documents, including the Virginia Declaration of Rights and the English Bill of Rights 1689, along with earlier documents such as Magna Carta (1215).

...
First Amendment

Main article: First Amendment to the United States Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[78]
The First Amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. Initially, the First Amendment applied only to laws enacted by Congress, and many of its provisions were interpreted more narrowly than they are today.[79]
In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the Court drew on Thomas Jefferson's correspondence to call for "a wall of separation between church and State", though the precise boundary of this separation remains in dispute.[79] Speech rights were expanded significantly in a series of 20th- and 21st-century court decisions that protected various forms of political speech, anonymous speech, campaign financing, pornography, and school speech; these rulings also defined a series of exceptions to First Amendment protections. The Supreme Court overturned English common law precedent to increase the burden of proof for defamation and libel suits, most notably in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964).[80] Commercial speech is less protected by the First Amendment than political speech, and is therefore subject to greater regulation.[79]
The Free Press Clause protects publication of information and opinions, and applies to a wide variety of media. In Near v. Minnesota (1931)[81] and New York Times v. United States (1971),[82] the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment protected against prior restraint—pre-publication censorship—in almost all cases. The Petition Clause protects the right to petition all branches and agencies of government for action. In addition to the right of assembly guaranteed by this clause, the Court has also ruled that the amendment implicitly protects freedom of association.[79]
Second Amendment

Main article: Second Amendment to the United States Constitution
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.[78]
The Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms. The concept of such a right existed within English common law long before the enactment of the Bill of Rights.[83] First codified in the English Bill of Rights of 1689 (but there only applying to Protestants), this right was enshrined in fundamental laws of several American states during the Revolutionary era, including the 1776 Virginia Declaration of Rights and the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776. Long a controversial issue in American political, legal and social discourse, the Second Amendment has been at the heart of several Supreme Court decisions.

  • In United States v. Cruikshank (1875), the Court ruled that "[t]he right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendment means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government."[84]
  • In United States v. Miller (1939), the Court ruled that the amendment "[protects arms that had a] reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia".[85]
  • In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment "codified a pre-existing right" and that it "protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home" but also stated that "the right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose".[86]
  • In McDonald v. Chicago (2010),[87] the Court ruled that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.[88]


Third Amendment

Main article: Third Amendment to the United States Constitution
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.[78]
The Third Amendment restricts the quartering of soldiers in private homes, in response to Quartering Acts passed by the British parliament during the Revolutionary War. The amendment is one of the least controversial of the Constitution, and, as of 2016, has never been the primary basis of a Supreme Court decision.[89][90][91]
Fourth Amendment

Main article: Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[78]
The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted as a response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, which is a type of general search warrant, in the American Revolution. Search and seizure (including arrest) must be limited in scope according to specific information supplied to the issuing court, usually by a law enforcement officer who has sworn by it. The amendment is the basis for the exclusionary rule, which mandates that evidence obtained illegally cannot be introduced into a criminal trial.[92] The amendment's interpretation has varied over time; its protections expanded under left-leaning courts such as that headed by Earl Warren and contracted under right-leaning courts such as that of William Rehnquist.[93]


In Gideon v. Wainwright (1963), the Court ruled that the amendment guaranteed the right to legal representation in all felony prosecutions in both state and federal courts.[95]
Seventh Amendment

Main article: Seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.[78]
The Seventh Amendment guarantees jury trials in federal civil cases that deal with claims of more than twenty dollars. It also prohibits judges from overruling findings of fact by juries in federal civil trials. In Colgrove v. Battin (1973), the Court ruled that the amendment's requirements could be fulfilled by a jury with a minimum of six members. The Seventh is one of the few parts of the Bill of Rights not to be incorporated (applied to the states).[96]
Eighth Amendment

Main article: Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.[78
The Eighth Amendment forbids the imposition of excessive bails or fines, though it leaves the term "excessive" open to interpretation.[97] The most frequently litigated clause of the amendment is the last, which forbids cruel and unusual punishment.[98][99] This clause was only occasionally applied by the Supreme Court prior to the 1970s, generally in cases dealing with means of execution. In Furman v. Georgia (1972), some members of the Court found capital punishment itself in violation of the amendment, arguing that the clause could reflect "evolving standards of decency" as public opinion changed; others found certain practices in capital trials to be unacceptably arbitrary, resulting in a majority decision that effectively halted executions in the United States for several years.[100] Executions resumed following Gregg v. Georgia (1976), which found capital punishment to be constitutional if the jury was directed by concrete sentencing guidelines.[100] The Court has also found that some poor prison conditions constitute cruel and unusual punishment, as in Estelle v. Gamble (1976).[98]
Ninth Amendment

Main article: Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution




The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.[78]

The Ninth Amendment clarifies that the specific individual rights stated in the Constitution, particularly in the Bill of Rights, does not constitute an explicit and exhaustive listing of all individual rights possessed by the people, and cannot be used by the federal government to increase its powers in areas not stated. It was rarely cited before the second half of the 20th century, when it was used as a positive affirmation of a right not stated but nonetheless protected by the Constitution,[101] the right to privacy. This right was, in turn, the foundation upon which the Supreme Court built decisions in several landmark cases: Griswold v. Connecticut (1965), which struck down a Connecticut law criminalizing the use of contraceptives; Roe v. Wade (1973), which overturned a Texas law making it a crime to assist a woman to get an abortion; and Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992), which invalidated a Pennsylvania law that required spousal awareness prior to obtaining an abortion.


Tenth Amendment

Main article: Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[78]
The Tenth Amendment reinforces the principles of separation of powers and federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the states, are reserved to the states or the people. The amendment provides no new powers or rights to the states, but rather preserves their authority in all matters not specifically granted to the federal government.[102]

Federal treason charges should be pursued against all revolutionaries of all stripes who seek to destroy, harm or undermine the pillars of our Civilization. And the maximum penalty needs to be applied.
I agree with this , but strike "revolutionaries" with officials and military personnel who violate the bill of rights with extradariy rendition and torture in overseas secret bases. It's a simple alchemy really. Anyone, regardless of station who violates the Bill of Rights is of course failing to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Therin, you'll find your use eaters, parasites, pondscum, rats,roaches, and termites.

Violent revolutionaries are useless eaters and termites who will destroy everything we care about if they are not stopped.
I'd include as per above civilian/military personel [including contractors ] as well.

The Bill of Rights has a long history
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Germanic-law
http://history-world.org/vikings.htm
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#25 at 03-26-2016 10:00 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
---
03-26-2016, 10:00 PM #25
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
(Reuters) - A U.S. grand jury returned an indictment on Wednesday against 16 people in connection with the armed occupation of a wildlife refuge in Oregon, prosecutors said.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Portland did not disclose the charges contained in the indictment, which has been sealed, but said it would likely be made public soon. A previous criminal complaint charged 11 former occupiers with conspiracy to impede federal officers.

(Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis in Los Angeles; Editing by Dan Whitcomb and Sandra Maler)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...83043469500171

Let the legal system take its course.
This is how things should work.
1. Gather evidence for probable cause.
2. Seek and get the requisite arrest warrants.
3. Apprehend the suspects.
4. If the suspect(s) resist arrest, follow standard operating procedures for detaining resisting suspects.
5. Once detained, set arraignment date.
6. Set trial date.
7. Enforce results of trial.

I think the above are a straight forward way of handing loonies as well. If they do something stupid, then they won't become martyrs because the process is well known and produces the requisite documentation. Even lethal force can be justified if the documented facts are there for all to see.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
-----------------------------------------