I couldn't find a previous thread (though searching on this board is really difficult), so this is an open request for Taramarie to tell us more about New Zealand in relation to S&H's theory as I enjoy hearing first person accounts from around the world. Do you think it's on a similar place in the saeculum as the US, or is it a few years off? What types of historical and cultural events would you say marked the changing to each turning? What archetypical similarities and differences do the generations have to their counterparts in the US and elsewhere? Feel free to add anything else I may be missing.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

I couldn't find a previous thread (though searching on this board is really difficult), so this is an open request for Taramarie to tell us more about New Zealand in relation to S&H's theory as I enjoy hearing first person accounts from around the world. Do you think it's on a similar place in the saeculum as the US, or is it a few years off? What types of historical and cultural events would you say marked the changing to each turning? What archetypical similarities and differences do the generations have to their counterparts in the US and elsewhere? Feel free to add anything else I may be missing.

Hi, certainly! I was actually hoping to find something on here relating to what goes on here regarding the turnings in nz but there was nothing so thank you for your question. Yes, that is what drew me to this theory as i could relate so well to the 3T child rearing and feel of the times back then in the 90s. When I was a child i experienced laws that had come in to protect us such as taking away the right for teachers to be able to smack us in 1989 (I entered primary school (like your elementary school) very late in 1989. Our end of year of school is in december for our summer/christmas break up. My first full year was in 1990. So I never experienced having a teacher smack me and was quite shocked to discover others were not so fortunate, for those who came before me. So i guess you could say they started to really promote child safety in the 80s here too. Some sources here say millennials were born in '82, others say '80 i really do not know, i wish they would pick one lol. But as an '84 baby i experienced child safety and songs that would tell us to buckle up in the car, and stay away from drugs, smoking, alcohol, sex and safe sex if we must but do not do it anyway haha! We were taught to pick up rubbish and care for the earth, to think of others, and always work in teams. Our parents generation, the boomers fussed over us and we must be too poor for trophys so we got the weekly certificates during wednesdays assembly. At the end of assembly the teachers for each class years, would get up and read out the students they picked for a certificate and would read out what they did to get it. We were rewarded for good behaviour and it taught us we did something right and to then keep repeating it because what we did was noticed as good. We have a generation quite xer like, they are hardcore pragmatic and always distrusting of institutions and get it done kind of attitude, survivalist and no bs generation. I love having them as teachers. We have a generation that is just like your baby boomers, my mother is one. They are the ones who go on at us about climate change and that we should not eat unhealthy food, drinks and they are always very moralistic and tell us younger folk to think about the community and the less fortunate which we do listen to. We have a silent generation who are kindly, sensitive and they are so well mannered and sweet. I work part time at a rest home while studying and i work round silents and g.is. they are so community minded and sweet. So, for the turnings.
As i said i work part time at a rest home. I have seen many pics of the g.i.s in their uniforms when they went off to war and they have a wee pole with the nz flag. Our g.is went off to the ww2 and we have a day to commemorate that ANZAC day. Australia and New Zealand Army Corps. We remember them and honour their bravery. The remainder of them are probably in rest homes where i work round them. They are sweet and giving, very friendly and love chatting to others there so i assume they also are community minded, i cannot tell for sure i really do not know much about them. But here we had a depression around the same time as the US and they also went off to war. They talk about a protected childhood too so i assume they have much in common with US G.I.s. Especially since NZ has a closer history to england than USA.
For the others to give you an insight into what goes on here i will copy and paste from an NZ site that talks a bit about them.
VETERANS

Veterans, also referred to as ‘the Silent Generation’, ‘Matures’ or the ‘Traditional Generation’ were born between 1925 and 1942, and are the oldest generation in the workforce today with many having already retired.
Veterans grew up in the aftermath of tough economic times and were raised in a society that stressed morality, obligations, social norms, tradition, loyalty, self-denial and hard work as inherently valuable and one’s duty. Growing up between two world wars and the Depression, scarcity and learning to go without,were commonplace.
In the workplace, Veterans respect authority, accepting the traditional executive decision-making command model of management believing in its effectiveness. They value the paternalistic employment relationship, safe working conditions, job security, and benefits organisations offered. Veterans derive satisfaction from doing their jobs well and have built their work ethic on commitment, responsibility, and conformity as their ticket to success.
Veterans believe in lifetime employment, company loyalty and paying one's dues in order to gain respect, power, status and corporate seniority. However, as a generation, they are now facing the challenge of co-workers with diverse values, lifestyles, and demands, burgeoning technology and non-traditional managers.
BABY BOOMERS

Baby Boomers who were born between 1943 and 1964 are the next oldest and generally the largest generational cohort in the workforce today. The post-war baby boom in New Zealand and in fact around the world created the most positive, doted upon generation the world had ever seen. Boomers were raised in an era of phenomenal national wealth and expansion claiming the world by right of inheritance and believing that every other generational cohort should follow their lead.
Boomers are fiercely competitive having had to fight for everything due to the sheer number of their peers competing against them. As they became young adults they saw a redefinition of gender roles and family constellations and major social upheaval and change. Boomers' adulthood has been uniquely characterised by dramatic social changes including the women’s movement, an increasingly technological and service orientated workforce and a shift toward a global economy.
Baby Boomers are self-absorbed soul searchers striving for self-realisation. Boomers formed or joined self-help movements in droves implementing every fad management program on the market hoping it would be the quick fix they were looking for. Characterised by an attitude of self-immersion, an impatient desire for self-satisfaction and a weak sense of community, Boomers tend to work more from emotion and intuition than objective reason.
In the workplace Boomers are characterised as workaholic, strong willed employees who are concerned with both work content and material gain. Their work has often become their personal lives and the key to their personal identities. They tend to be driven, willing to go the extra mile with the motto ‘live to work’. On the job, Boomers expect to arrive early and to leave late; seeing visibility as the key to success. However, in return Boomers expect promotions, titles, corner offices, and reserved car parking spaces.
Having excellent interpersonal and communication skills, Boomer excel at consensus building, mentoring, and effecting change. They use their keen appreciation for democracy and teamwork to form task forces to accomplish projects and goals.
GENERATION X

'Generation X'ers were born between 1965 and 1981 and after Baby Boomers is the next largest generational cohort in the workplace today. Whilst the title ‘Generation X’ can be traced back to the author Douglas Coupland who wrote about late boomers and gave them the title ‘Generation X’, the ubiquitous usage of the name can be attributed to media moguls who popularised the phrase during the mid 1990’s.
Xers grew up predominantly as ‘latch-key’ kids in dual-income families where their parents were absorbed in consumerism. Xers therefore grew up teaching themselves what worked and what didn’t and as a result they are a very independent generation. Being affected by their parents' skyrocketing divorce rate and inability to balance their work and family life, Xers vowed never to make the same mistake. Hence, Xers want quality of life, expecting balance and placing boundaries on the infringement of work on their personal lives living by the motto ‘work to live’ and not ‘live to work’.
Being brought up in the information revolution shaped the way Xers learn, think, and communicate. Comfortable with the new technology, Xers have easily mastered the art of generating and analysing the huge amounts of facts and figures required in today’s workplace. As a result Xers have learnt to value diversity: diverse nationalities, diverse family constellations, and diverse technology.
Xers learnt early on that loyalty was not a two way street, and that the ‘cradle to grave’ job security of previous generations was a thing of the past. Xers therefore provide ‘just in time loyalty’ doing a good job in return for employers meeting their job demands. Xers expect to be able to maintain career security and enhance their marketability through challenging jobs in which they are constantly learning. In order to do this, Xers seek alignment with organisations that value their competencies, reward productivity rather than longevity, and create a sense of community.
Xers are pragmatic, hardworking, ambitious, selfish, and determined to succeed financially. As a generation they are collectively saying ‘no’ to traditional management approaches in the workplace. They expect to be trusted to get the job done and being given the freedom and flexibility to set their own hours to do so. They also demand a technologically up-to-date work environment, competent, credible managers and co-workers, and managers who coach and mentor rather than command and micromanage.
Xers are also determined individualists, fiercely independent and expect their entrepreneurial spirit to add value to current operations. To retain Xer employee’s employers need to offer variety, stimulation, and constant change to maintain their interest. To inspire Xers motivation managers need to reward innovation, make public displays of success, support personal growth, create opportunities for satisfying team work and personal responsibility and create a culture of fun!!
GENERATION Y

Generation Y referred to as ‘Nexters’, ‘Millennials’, Generation ‘Why?’ and the ‘Internet Gen’, were born between 1982 and 1994 and are the youngest generation in the workforce today, with most yet to enter.
Generation Y are coming of age during a shift back towards virtue and values, are closer to their parents than Xers, show more concern for religion and community and due to recent economic expansion are more optimistic and positive. As a result they are generally more relaxed and confident in their abilities than previous generations.
Growing up Generation Y was over-supervised with lives packed full of parental attention, structure, chaperones and after school programs leaving very little unplanned free time. As a result they expect employers to provide structure in the workplace and can sometimes lack spontaneity.
Generation Y, like Xers, are highly educated and technologically savvy seeing work that isn’t a learning experience leading to something better as a dead end and to be avoided. Sometimes referred to as the ‘Why’ generation, they are also not afraid to voice their concerns and opinions and question authority. Having a keen sense of fairness and fair play in the workplace, they believe rules are rules and expect bosses to enforce them and not bend them. Though comfortable with authority, generation Y sees that that authority must be competent and have integrity.
Maintaining a healthy balance between their personal and professional lives and valuing family and friends above all else is also paramount to Generation Y. In the workplace the team is very important to Generation Y. They are used to being organised into teams to get things done and being evaluated as a unit. Hence, they are comfortable with being remunerated as a group.
Now, for the wee ones they really do not have too much about them, but i can tell you what i have seen change here. We went through in 2007 a law that protected the wee ones more than us millennials. We had the anti smacking law for teachers in 1989, and smacking was frowned upon for parents and we were told to report them if they did but it was not illegal. What was illegal was leaving a child at home alone until they were 16. But for the next generation there is a total ban on smacking a child, by anyone. My old primary school now has double fencing to lock the kids safely away in there and they have put the wee ones in uniform. We had that for high school but not at the primary school i went to. For others many of them did though. When i was a wee one they had a sign to tell parents driving in to please mind the children. I suppose the double fencing is to make sure they do not hit kids with their car. Nowadays anything is considered child abuse. If a child is screaming from a tantrum people call up the authorities and the police come down. My mate who was born in '84 like me has a 6 year old and someone called the cops on her and she had to explain her child was just being fussy. Luckily they left her alone but she had to tell her to behave because they can easily take her away. The cops scared her daughter straight and she behaved after that and went to bed. We have gone through so many massive earthquakes of late that we literally have turned into builders because we have to rebuild our entire city and suburbs back up. Christchurch city and its suburbs have been flattened which has traumatized our very young youth and on top of it we are still in the worst recession since our great depression. However in response to the quakes us millennials created the SVA and gave some hope back to the community by pulling together with our shovels and helping the elderly, sick and those in desperate need by digging out the silt and delivering water, feeding people, homing the homeless and doing what we could to give chch some hope back. There were hundreds of us doing this all around chch. People said they were shocked. We did this everytime we had another massive quake. We had one in 2010, one in feb 2011, 2 one after the other in june 2011 and 2 days before christmas day 2 more one after the other. Each time we went back out and did our thing. We created a page for us and the community to get a hold of us and ask for help. I was one of the volunteers. Boy i saw some awful things but it shocked everyone and it was an empowering beautiful experience all the same. Any other questions feel free to ask away!

Ugh, I posted this late and didn't realize it was in the wrong forum. If there was a regular moderator here I'd request a thread move, oh well.

Anyway, thanks for the detailed response. It's interesting on how a lot of the generation names went across the Pacific, and you do make it sound like there's not that much of a difference at all.

I think I'd still be curious on some historical markers for NZ. In particular:
--Was there a substantial cultural revolution (aka, 2T start) in NZ in the 1960s and 1970s like much of the world? If so, did it start more in the mid 60s, like in the US, or in the late 60s like other locations?
--When do you think Kiwis felt that change in culture was established, and were ready to move on, marking the start of the 3T? Those can be the most difficult to identify at times.
--Did NZ suffer enough during the 2008 financial meltdown to trigger a 4T catalyst in the minds of society?

Considering your location, I'm also going to ask what might be a difficult question--and that has to do with the Christchurch earthquake. Do you think that the response to it was what you'd expect in a 4T? Here in the US we also had a devastating natural disaster with Hurricane Katrina in 2005. It's one of three top nominees for a 4T start here, but I still think that the response was more indicative a 3T, albeit late enough it got some people to reconsider worldviews. I wish it had shook mine enough when it actually happened.

NZ appeared to embrace a Green tinted socialism during the 80s and 90s, that is quite different from what happened here in the US.

New Zealand is number one on my list of places to escape to, if the U.S. cannot alter its present trajectory into the crapper.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

Ugh, I posted this late and didn't realize it was in the wrong forum. If there was a regular moderator here I'd request a thread move, oh well.

Anyway, thanks for the detailed response. It's interesting on how a lot of the generation names went across the Pacific, and you do make it sound like there's not that much of a difference at all.

I think I'd still be curious on some historical markers for NZ. In particular:
--Was there a substantial cultural revolution (aka, 2T start) in NZ in the 1960s and 1970s like much of the world? If so, did it start more in the mid 60s, like in the US, or in the late 60s like other locations?
--When do you think Kiwis felt that change in culture was established, and were ready to move on, marking the start of the 3T? Those can be the most difficult to identify at times.
--Did NZ suffer enough during the 2008 financial meltdown to trigger a 4T catalyst in the minds of society?

Considering your location, I'm also going to ask what might be a difficult question--and that has to do with the Christchurch earthquake. Do you think that the response to it was what you'd expect in a 4T? Here in the US we also had a devastating natural disaster with Hurricane Katrina in 2005. It's one of three top nominees for a 4T start here, but I still think that the response was more indicative a 3T, albeit late enough it got some people to reconsider worldviews. I wish it had shook mine enough when it actually happened.

haha actually about that, regarding the 60s in nz i do not know. I would have to get into learning the history of nz as i could never ask my family about it. They are not from here. I am actually the first born here. My family actually carried with them the British turning cycle as they are British. Except my mother who was born in Canada. I will look further into it for you if you like, it is not my families history but should be interesting. All i have heard so far was the 60s and 70s in nz were a happier time and very culturally alive. Our boomers here are just like American boomers from what i have heard. I can tell you from my perspective however for 2008 now. Yes we had a huge crash and thousands of jobs were lost, companies were crushed and it is still ongoing. It was even more so for us in christchurch with the earthquakes. Our city is like one huge car park. Well, the response here was one of mayhem and people grabbing and hoarding, selfishness abound. It became frantic here and ever since then the mood has been a pretty dark and impatient one. There were break ins and fires set and people moving into the red zone which are areas that were abandoned (whole suburbs sometimes) and illegally moving into those houses. It was total chaos here and still is. Pretty much why the SVA stepped in to try bring back some hope to the people of the community whose lives were crumbling around them literally. We were not taking like others, we were giving to others so i guess it was a rebellion on our part against what we saw others doing. So, you could say the earthquakes brought out the 'civic' collective side in us for all to blatantly see which shocked others and their responses told me they were not used to experiencing random acts of kindness. Pretty sad if you ask me. For your other questions as i have stated, i will have to study that. I really am having a hard time finding anything on that but i can look into it.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

NZ appeared to embrace a Green tinted socialism during the 80s and 90s, that is quite different from what happened here in the US.

yeah i can believe that and i did experience that too as a child. Our boomers i could even go as far as to say they are even more hardcore hippies. I certainly see it!

Originally Posted by TnT

New Zealand is number one on my list of places to escape to, if the U.S. cannot alter its present trajectory into the crapper.

well it is a nice place to live and one of the safer places to live too

Originally Posted by Taramarie

well it is a nice place to live and one of the safer places to live too

I went there for three weeks while I was in college and it was nowhere near enough time. I only covered about half of the North Island, loved my time there. Getting down to your island is a definite priority of mine.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Well, the response here was one of mayhem and people grabbing and hoarding, selfishness abound. It became frantic here and ever since then the mood has been a pretty dark and impatient one. There were break ins and fires set and people moving into the red zone which are areas that were abandoned (whole suburbs sometimes) and illegally moving into those houses. It was total chaos here and still is. Pretty much why the SVA stepped in to try bring back some hope to the people of the community whose lives were crumbling around them literally. We were not taking like others, we were giving to others so i guess it was a rebellion on our part against what we saw others doing. So, you could say the earthquakes brought out the 'civic' collective side in us for all to blatantly see which shocked others and their responses told me they were not used to experiencing random acts of kindness. Pretty sad if you ask me.

That does seem more like an early 4T disaster response to me--thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

I went there for three weeks while I was in college and it was nowhere near enough time. I only covered about half of the North Island, loved my time there. Getting down to your island is a definite priority of mine.

I have heard from many that the south island is more beautiful, but that is only from hearsay. I have never seen the north island. Haha i have seen the world, but never the north island of my own country.

That does seem more like an early 4T disaster response to me--thanks for sharing.

No problem. I cannot say about the other turnings here yet but the fourth turning here in nz i would say is right on track with you guys and was made even worse by our devastating earthquakes. Thank you for your questions.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

well it is a nice place to live and one of the safer places to live too

Well, it is literally Middle Earth!

Originally Posted by Odin

Well, it is literally Middle Earth!

hahahhahaa! true true!

Originally Posted by Bronco80

Ugh, I posted this late and didn't realize it was in the wrong forum. If there was a regular moderator here I'd request a thread move, oh well.

Anyway, thanks for the detailed response. It's interesting on how a lot of the generation names went across the Pacific, and you do make it sound like there's not that much of a difference at all.

I think I'd still be curious on some historical markers for NZ. In particular:
--Was there a substantial cultural revolution (aka, 2T start) in NZ in the 1960s and 1970s like much of the world? If so, did it start more in the mid 60s, like in the US, or in the late 60s like other locations?
--When do you think Kiwis felt that change in culture was established, and were ready to move on, marking the start of the 3T? Those can be the most difficult to identify at times.
--Did NZ suffer enough during the 2008 financial meltdown to trigger a 4T catalyst in the minds of society?

Considering your location, I'm also going to ask what might be a difficult question--and that has to do with the Christchurch earthquake. Do you think that the response to it was what you'd expect in a 4T? Here in the US we also had a devastating natural disaster with Hurricane Katrina in 2005. It's one of three top nominees for a 4T start here, but I still think that the response was more indicative a 3T, albeit late enough it got some people to reconsider worldviews. I wish it had shook mine enough when it actually happened.

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/decade-studies here is a site that delves into years and decades here in nz and key events at the time. Quite interesting if you enjoy that sort of thing. We experienced the depression in '29 it sounds also. I am just going through the 20s currently and reading the rest of it atm. I think you guys had prohibition in '29 right? Well we also had that too but by the sounds of it in 1922! By a prophet of course.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/decade-studies here is a site that delves into years and decades here in nz and key events at the time. Quite interesting if you enjoy that sort of thing. We experienced the depression in '29 it sounds also. I am just going through the 20s currently and reading the rest of it atm. I think you guys had prohibition in '29 right? Well we also had that too but by the sounds of it in 1922! By a prophet of course.

Thank you, I'll take a closer look. Sure does seem like NZ is right on line with the US at first glance. And yeah, US Prohibition went from 1920-1933. Pretty crazy how this saeculum's War on Drugs is mimicking the previous one.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

Thank you, I'll take a closer look. Sure does seem like NZ is right on line with the US at first glance. And yeah, US Prohibition went from 1920-1933. Pretty crazy how this saeculum's War on Drugs is mimicking the previous one.

Ohh really? That it interesting! Yes it seems that way. There is actually nothing that i can find that really cements the turnings, but we had our own depression at the same time. We had a well behaved 'sensitive silent' generation. During the mid fifties i saw that they said the birth control pill came into circulation and that by the 60s it had markedly caused a drop in birth rate so i take it was the time of the gen xers. Plus at the same time that was when massive protests were going on that were focused on civil rights, and also vietnam in the 70s. We had our own 'woodstock' too. Crime skyrocketed during the 70s. We had a stock market crash in the 80s and it doesn't say it but I know of a few laws that came into effect that were starting to protect kids. My mother told me about them. We had our own hippy and yuppie movements at the same time. The 90s onwards are what I remember, and I remember an emphasis on knowing there is danger out there, and there is safety in numbers. Do not talk to strangers in the street etc. Our weekly certificates are our equivalent to American trophies. From what I have heard about American Millennials, we got exactly the same treatment, right down to the structuring of kids lives and the after school programs which were us being loaded onto buses and heading off to another school to do wood work, metal work, sewing, art, cooking etc.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

Thank you, I'll take a closer look. Sure does seem like NZ is right on line with the US at first glance. And yeah, US Prohibition went from 1920-1933. Pretty crazy how this saeculum's War on Drugs is mimicking the previous one.

Oh btw I do not remember a time without the baby on board sign being around haha if that is a marker for millennials. The baby boom of course an easy one to see as we participated in WW2. Oh, btw, during the time that the gen xers were being born and raised, it said that divorce rates were skyrocketing too which I found interesting.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Oh btw I do not remember a time without the baby on board sign being around haha if that is a marker for millennials.

The Baby on Board signs were like citation #1 for S&H in introducing the Millennials to their audience.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Oh, btw, during the time that the gen xers were being born and raised, it said that divorce rates were skyrocketing too which I found interesting.

Sounds like your Silents had the same midlife crises that ours did.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Oh btw I do not remember a time without the baby on board sign being around haha if that is a marker for millennials. The baby boom of course an easy one to see as we participated in WW2. Oh, btw, during the time that the gen xers were being born and raised, it said that divorce rates were skyrocketing too which I found interesting.

The true significance of the Baby On Board signage (typically on a Volvo driven by a yuppie):

Although I doubt NZ had very many of the following archetype, back in the day:

Originally Posted by Bronco80

The Baby on Board signs were like citation #1 for S&H in introducing the Millennials to their audience.

Sounds like your Silents had the same midlife crises that ours did.

lol yep they sure did.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

The true significance of the Baby On Board signage (typically on a Volvo driven by a yuppie):

I have no idea about the volvo. But we had yuppies in the 80's and as i said I do not remember a time without that sign. (Baby on board)

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

Although I doubt NZ had very many of the following archetype, back in the day:

What archetype would you call that?

Originally Posted by Taramarie

What archetype would you call that?

None other than the dastardly Gordon Gecko.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

None other than the dastardly Gordon Gecko.

Ahh, we had that in the 80's. Greed was good here too, otherwise known as our yuppies.

Now our California yupsters were a little different from the East Coast variety ... but they still had the stickers on their Volvos (and Beemers):



(Side bar note ... Thirtysomething + 30 = Sixtysomething ... O ... M ... G ... senior citizens driving Beemer SUVs with "Baby Boomer On Board" stickers ... oh, the humanity!)