Originally Posted by Cynic Hero '86

Pbrower, the younger generations do not want globalism shoved down their throats. We do not want some bureaucrat telling us that islamist terrorist mass-murderers are entitled to the same rights to our courts when they despise all civilization. We demand that measures appropriate for this enemy be implemented, what enteprising Millies don't want or desire is human rights being shoved down our throats.

Oh shut up you Fascist pond scum and quit making grand pronouncements about how we Millennials supposedly agree with your insane hate.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But it's better to relax, work by and yes, to fall asleep by.

It is ironic that such a composer as Beethoven is considered effete, snobbish and elitist by some folks, when the whole spirit and attitude of his music is about the Revolution and the liberation of humanity.

You must not do work that is relatively fast paced, physical in nature which requires a higher level of pep.

Originally Posted by Odin

Oh shut up you Fascist pond scum and quit making grand pronouncements about how we Millennials supposedly agree with your insane hate.

Actually, a lot do, but they're not as vocal as Cynic.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Values lock is the norm in America. The Right and the Left have little in common that they don't take for granted -- basically being in the same country.

The Right has a total solution for America -- 95% of the people suffering for the gain and indulgence of 1%, a culture predicated upon Christian fundamentalism, workers completely at the mercy of bosses and owners, education as a privilege offered only to those who are trustworthy due to their elite origins and narrow training for everyone else, wars for profit, and privatization of anything that can turn a profit for rapacious monopolists.

The Left by contrast is closer to the political center by international criteria, and it offers more alternatives.

More alternatives to what? France isn't loaded with alternatives. Europe isn't loaded with alternatives. China isn't loaded with alternatives. Russia isn't loaded with alternatives. Europe is loaded with duplication's of the same form of government. America is loaded with alternatives. You don't have to go far to find an alternative in America. In America, where there's a will there's a way still applies for most people.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

More alternatives to what? France isn't loaded with alternatives. Europe isn't loaded with alternatives. China isn't loaded with alternatives. Russia isn't loaded with alternatives. Europe is loaded with duplication's of the same form of government. America is loaded with alternatives. You don't have to go far to find an alternative in America. In America, where there's a will there's a way still applies for most people.

I would disagree. There are some who might feel that way at an individual level, but not in terms of government. Reagan's lingering and malignant meme is that government isn't the solution, it's the problem. The default Republican answer to improving things is a tax cut. The way the rules of order are being interpreted in Congress these days, you need 60% supermajorities to get anything done. The current mode of operation in Washington DC these days is stagnant corruption rather than "where there's a will, there's a way."

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

You must not do work that is relatively fast paced, physical in nature which requires a higher level of pep.

So music at its best exists only to drive people to work harder and more energetically? Such is not the purpose of great music.

Originally Posted by B Butler

I would disagree. There are some who might feel that way at an individual level, but not in terms of government. Reagan's lingering and malignant meme is that government isn't the solution, it's the problem. The default Republican answer to improving things is a tax cut. The way the rules of order are being interpreted in Congress these days, you need 60% supermajorities to get anything done. The current mode of operation in Washington DC these days is stagnant corruption rather than "where there's a will, there's a way."

Reagan lowered taxes, cut government spending and deregulated industries like communications which opened up new markets for communications and freed up capital. You only need 51% to get most things done like adding and changing laws. You need a super majority to pass whatever you want without having to negotiate, compromise, sacrifice, debate or account for anything that's passed like the stimulus and Obama Care. Obama burned the bridge with Republicans. Hilliary Clinton burned the bridge with Republicans along time ago. You're correct, Democrats will need another super majority to get anything done. I don't see a whole lot of will on the Democrat side these days. It appears to me, the Democrats of today are the types who are used to getting what they want without much struggle. I see lots of young preppies talking and acting like young preppies telling each other how its going to be whether WE like it or not because they're the future. The issue is, they're thirty somethings and they're still stuck in their liberal bubble of social cluelessness. Dude, the hot ones even manage to turn me off with their arrogance and ignorance relating to knowledge and understanding of other people.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

So music at its best exists only to drive people to work harder and more energetically? Such is not the purpose of great music.

Big Brother and The Koch Brothers don't provide the radio and choose the station on most construction sites. The worker or workers provide the radios and choose the stations on most construction sites. The purpose of music is to create enjoyment and inspiration. Great music of whatever type brings a lot of enjoyment and inspiration to its listeners.

Originally Posted by B Butler

I'm not really into classical, and most of the classical stuff I'm into isn't effete, snobbish and elitist. The two discs at the core of may classic collection are "Heavy Classix" and "Orchestral Fireworks". Throwing out all of a school of music because one doesn't like some of it is like throwing out all Republicans because of some of them.

Today, that analogy doesn't hold up too well. Most Republicans DO need to be thrown out (of office, that is). But yes there might be something worthwhile to be found in any genre.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

You must not do work that is relatively fast paced, physical in nature which requires a higher level of pep.

Classical can be quite peppy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JS2Plbu1V4 (watch ol' Leonard wipe his brow and take some breaths after this one!)

https://youtu.be/yRUlzJn8UeU

And you might want to be relaxed while doing strenuous physical work. But on the other hand, some good rock'n'roll might be good for that too.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

Reagan lowered taxes, cut government spending and deregulated industries like communications which opened up new markets for communications and freed up capital. You only need 51% to get most things done like adding and changing laws. You need a super majority to pass whatever you want without having to negotiate, compromise, sacrifice, debate or account for anything that's passed like the stimulus and Obama Care. Obama burned the bridge with Republicans. Hilliary Clinton burned the bridge with Republicans along time ago. You're correct, Democrats will need another super majority to get anything done. I don't see a whole lot of will on the Democrat side these days. It appears to me, the Democrats of today are the types who are used to getting what they want without much struggle. I see lots of young preppies talking and acting like young preppies telling each other how its going to be whether WE like it or not because they're the future. The issue is, they're thirty somethings and they're still stuck in their liberal bubble of social cluelessness. Dude, the hot ones even manage to turn me off with their arrogance and ignorance relating to knowledge and understanding of other people.

The Republicans are the ones who burned the bridge. They became the implacable, intransigent opposition-to-all-Democrats party. Obamacare was originally Republican. As to whether millennials have knowledge and understanding of other people or not, time will tell. Younger people are generally arrogant and dream of what they can do when they take over. Time will tell.

Actually, a lot do, but they're not as vocal as Cynic.

Millennials may be a bit emotionally mercurial, but they do not share the views of Mr. Cynic, nor do Americans of any generation.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

Reagan lowered taxes, cut government spending and deregulated industries like communications which opened up new markets for communications and freed up capital. You only need 51% to get most things done like adding and changing laws. You need a super majority to pass whatever you want without having to negotiate, compromise, sacrifice, debate or account for anything that's passed like the stimulus and Obama Care. Obama burned the bridge with Republicans. Hillary Clinton burned the bridge with Republicans along time ago. You're correct, Democrats will need another super majority to get anything done. I don't see a whole lot of will on the Democrat side these days. It appears to me, the Democrats of today are the types who are used to getting what they want without much struggle. I see lots of young preppies talking and acting like young preppies telling each other how its going to be whether WE like it or not because they're the future. The issue is, they're thirty somethings and they're still stuck in their liberal bubble of social cluelessness. Dude, the hot ones even manage to turn me off with their arrogance and ignorance relating to knowledge and understanding of other people.

"Where there's a will, there's a way" was once upon a time a very American perspective. By once upon a time I mean the time of tax and spend liberalism. We would contain communism, promote civil and gender rights, clean the major urban river systems while flying to the moon. The GIs had a tremendous amount of will and found a way.

They hit The Wall with the National Malaise. The fall of Saigon, Watergate, the oil crisis, the hostage crisis, and stagflation deflated the notion of "Where there's a will, there's a way." Before The Wall, the Boomers demanded much and the GIs to a great extent delivered. Before The Wall, there was a will. The Reagan memes were a form of surrender. We would no longer attempt great things. The Government, instead of being viewed as a tool to achieve greatness, became viewed by many as an enemy that destroyed the potential for greatness.

In some ways I can see how it happened. The old optimistic and energetic America demanded much and was giving diminishing returns. The period of the National Malaise demonstrated that there were limits to our power and ability to get things done. The GIs had been asked to sacrifice much, had killed a lot of Nazis, had paid a lot of taxes, had absorbed a lot of social changes, and, really, enough was enough. America really did need a vacation, and that's what unravellings are about.

My sister tells a story of a Fourth of July beach party, with a four year old girl at the center of the story. There was swimming, boating, water skiing, barbecue, lots of kids her age, fireworks and ice cream. Wonderful stuff. When the time came for her parents to bundle everything and everyone into the car to go home, she cried and threw a tantrum. Why couldn't the Fourth of July go on forever? Why did it have to end?

Vacations do have to end. Unravelings are supposed to be a time of indulgence and selfishness. In a sense we earned that time and needed that time. I just don't see it going on forever. For a time we can lock ourselves into perpetual sequestration, for a time we can let the debt build, for a time we can pretend there is no wealth gap, that the planet isn't warming, that voodoo economics works, that one can filibuster anything that requires real effort, that government of, for and by the elites isn't dangerous, that there is no elephant in the room. We've been at it for a long generation. For a lot of folks, born on the Fourth of July, this is all they know, this is all they've seen. The idea that the Fourth of July party has to come to an end, that Monday morning is coming, that one has to go back to work, seems shocking and dismaying. Like a four year old they will cry and throw a tantrum.

I don't know that we'll ever be able to regain the energy and optimism of the tax and spend liberal era, the time there was always a will and a way, the time that problems were a challenge one overcame rather than pretending they didn't exist. I do see the ashes of the barbecue fires being dumped, the beach toys being deflated and packed, the little children being packed into the car to be driven back to reality, the adults knowing that parties require paychecks, require that work must be done.

If you want an explanation of restorationist governmental philosophy I will use the partial example of two countries in their prime; take the dominant political evolution of England between roughly 1200 AD and roughly 1850/60 AD. Now compare that with France's dominant evolution in the same period. While these are not entirely good examples (both countries flourished during the aristocratic age, a very different era than the meritocratic state the I envision with restorationism) they will be used here to illustrate contrasts. What Restorationism seeks is for America's future political development to be more analogous to the direction that was taken by France during the above era, not the direction taken by England.

Originally Posted by B Butler

"Where there's a will, there's a way" was once upon a time a very American perspective. By once upon a time I mean the time of tax and spend liberalism. We would contain communism, promote civil and gender rights, clean the major urban river systems while flying to the moon. The GIs had a tremendous amount of will and found a way.

They hit The Wall with the National Malaise. The fall of Saigon, Watergate, the oil crisis, the hostage crisis, and stagflation deflated the notion of "Where there's a will, there's a way." Before The Wall, the Boomers demanded much and the GIs to a great extent delivered. Before The Wall, there was a will. The Reagan memes were a form of surrender. We would no longer attempt great things. The Government, instead of being viewed as a tool to achieve greatness, became viewed by many as an enemy that destroyed the potential for greatness.

True. I could see the end of the Boom Awakening in bumper stickers that read "We're Spending Our Grandchildren's Inheritance" and of course Proposition 13 in California. I could see it in the rise of Ronald Reagan as a Presidential candidate. I could hear it in Disco and in popular musicians no longer pretending to have any noble purpose in their lyrics. Live for the moment, Devil take the hindmost, I've got mine -- $crew you. GIs, the Silent, and Boomers all participated in calling the end of the Boom Awakening.

In some ways I can see how it happened. The old optimistic and energetic America demanded much and was giving diminishing returns. The period of the National Malaise demonstrated that there were limits to our power and ability to get things done. The GIs had been asked to sacrifice much, had killed a lot of Nazis, had paid a lot of taxes, had absorbed a lot of social changes, and, really, enough was enough. America really did need a vacation, and that's what unravellings are about.

If it was a vacation, it lasted too long and cost too much, and wasn't so great. For me it was mostly a bad trip.

My sister tells a story of a Fourth of July beach party, with a four year old girl at the center of the story. There was swimming, boating, water skiing, barbecue, lots of kids her age, fireworks and ice cream. Wonderful stuff. When the time came for her parents to bundle everything and everyone into the car to go home, she cried and threw a tantrum. Why couldn't the Fourth of July go on forever? Why did it have to end?

Vacations do have to end. Unravelings are supposed to be a time of indulgence and selfishness. In a sense we earned that time and needed that time. I just don't see it going on forever. For a time we can lock ourselves into perpetual sequestration, for a time we can let the debt build, for a time we can pretend there is no wealth gap, that the planet isn't warming, that voodoo economics works, that one can filibuster anything that requires real effort, that government of, for and by the elites isn't dangerous, that there is no elephant in the room. We've been at it for a long generation. For a lot of folks, born on the Fourth of July, this is all they know, this is all they've seen. The idea that the Fourth of July party has to come to an end, that Monday morning is coming, that one has to go back to work, seems shocking and dismaying. Like a four year old they will cry and throw a tantrum.

I would use Mardi Gras -- a celebration that precedes the austerity of Lent. Mardi Gras means little without Lent.

I don't know that we'll ever be able to regain the energy and optimism of the tax and spend liberal era, the time there was always a will and a way, the time that problems were a challenge one overcame rather than pretending they didn't exist. I do see the ashes of the barbecue fires being dumped, the beach toys being deflated and packed, the little children being packed into the car to be driven back to reality, the adults knowing that parties require paychecks, require that work must be done.

We will see it again -- after every other option fails, perhaps even catastrophically.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

I would use Mardi Gras -- a celebration that precedes the austerity of Lent. Mardi Gras means little without Lent.

I've no problem with Mardi Gras, but my sister tells it as a true story. The party was a Fourth of July party held on shores of White Island Pond in Plymouth MA.

I think a big thing here is that classical music has become one of those cultural things that are deeply tied up with social class. In working class circles enjoying classical music tends to be looked down upon as effete, snobbish, and elitist.

Much of classical music is public domain, it is taught in public schools and one can watch live recordings on youtube. What's elitist about that? I find someone like Bob Dylan charging almost 200 dollars for a not so great concert to be elitist. It's sad and ironic that the working class is taught and encouraged to scorn the only free culture they are given.

As a member of the working class I found music and art incredibly liberating in the midst of constant smog, traffic, honking horns. It was the most beautiful and mesmerizing thing I'd ever heard.

It is ironic that such a composer as Beethoven is considered effete, snobbish and elitist by some folks, when the whole spirit and attitude of his music is about the Revolution and the liberation of humanity.

It's also sad and ironic considering the deep poverty he spent most of his life enduring. From childhood to grave.

Not to mention, the environment is pretty lame and its quite boring to watch and its hard to sit there for hours without falling to sleep. I had a blast at rock concerts during the 80's.

If you actually sat down and listened to it, you would realize that much of it is exhilarating and exalting. Much more so than bland pop music. Also, not all classical music is a 30 minute symphony, some of it consists of lovely little pieces such as this

Give it a chance before you write it all off, obviously you haven't.

If the song doesn't move you, it might fascinate you to know he is playing this on a violin that is almost 300 years old.

I like rock music, including 80s rock, but this music stirs my soul, imagination, and intellect.

Have you ever listened to Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue? I don't know anyone who would call it boring...

How can anyone say this isn't energetic or exalting?

Although it is a music score, it's certainly comparable to classical music.

Or how about this?

Your attitude is astonishing

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

Big Brother and The Koch Brothers don't provide the radio and choose the station on most construction sites. The worker or workers provide the radios and choose the stations on most construction sites. The purpose of music is to create enjoyment and inspiration. Great music of whatever type brings a lot of enjoyment and inspiration to its listeners.

Great music is one of the few reliable distractions from the sheer nastiness of life as I now endure it. If you had any idea of what I have been through... grief, grief, and more grief... servitude, fear, and the potential for great guilt... I used to consider myself an emotionally-tough person. If I can crack emotionally, it must be bad. Maybe if I were a sociopath I could escape it all, make a big profit hurting customers, and heading off to the beach with booze and great-looking floozies who don't care that I am near 60, getting plenty of sex. But I am stranded in rural Michigan with someone who thinks that a certain hick town is the only place in the world with trustworthy people. Even the women much past legal age here are typically grossly-overweight air-heads. (The pretty, smart ones go to college and never return except for a dutiful appearance at a family reunion).

I am reminded of one of the July 20 plotters against the worst crime syndicate to have ever existed (the German Nazi Party and its crime boss Adolf Hitler) who wrote that all that kept him going was the performances of the Berlin Philharmonic under Wilhelm Furtwangler. Not even the Nazis could distort Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, or Brahms into something ugly -- although they could distort just about everything else into a monstrosity.

Better Schubert's Octet than booze or dope, I'd say.

As I have said before we don't need big government and definitely not "small government". What this country needs is a STRONG GOVERNMENT.

Originally Posted by Cynic Hero '86

As I have said before we don't need big government and definitely not "small government". What this country needs is a STRONG GOVERNMENT.

We need government strong enough to enforce the God-given rights of Man and to promote the general welfare, but restrained from doing evil to those.

Originally Posted by Felix5

Much of classical music is public domain, it is taught in public schools and one can watch live recordings on youtube. What's elitist about that? I find someone like Bob Dylan charging almost 200 dollars for a not so great concert to be elitist. It's sad and ironic that the working class is taught and encouraged to scorn the only free culture they are given.

As a member of the working class I found music and art incredibly liberating in the midst of constant smog, traffic, honking horns. It was the most beautiful and mesmerizing thing I'd ever heard.

I wasn't caliing it elitist, I was just saying it is PERCEIVED as elitist, probably stemming from the anti-intellectualism of American society.

Originally Posted by Felix5

It's also sad and ironic considering the deep poverty he spent most of his life enduring. From childhood to grave.

Beethoven was probably Western society's original "Starving Artist".

Originally Posted by Felix5

If you actually sat down and listened to it, you would realize that much of it is exhilarating and exalting. Much more so than bland pop music. Also, not all classical music is a 30 minute symphony, some of it consists of lovely little pieces such as this

Give it a chance before you write it all off, obviously you haven't.

If the song doesn't move you, it might fascinate you to know he is playing this on a violin that is almost 300 years old.

I like rock music, including 80s rock, but this music stirs my soul, imagination, and intellect.

Have you ever listened to Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue? I don't know anyone who would call it boring...

I go to the Fargo-Moorhead Symphony once in a while and it has never been boring.