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Thread: War of Spanish Succession







Post#1 at 08-24-2015 12:00 AM by Gianthogweed [at joined Apr 2012 #posts 590]
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War of Spanish Succession

https://youtu.be/h6vYv9O0dEM
I was watching Neil Howe on this youtube video

He mentioned War of Spanish Succession as being part of a fourth Turning (11 mins in). But that was 1701-1714, wouldn't this have taken place during the first turning of the revolutionary cycle?

edited because I linked the wrong video, oops.
Last edited by Gianthogweed; 08-24-2015 at 12:43 PM.
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Post#2 at 08-24-2015 01:37 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Gianthogweed View Post
I was watching Neil Howe on this youtube video
https://youtu.be/yOXuQrf9Ih0

He mentioned War of Spanish Succesion as being part of a fourth Turning. But that was 1701-1714, wouldn't this have taken place during the first turning of the revolutionary cycle?
If he means the anglo-american turnings, then yes; it was King William's War that was the fourth turning war. I don't know if he subscribes to the idea that turnings happen at different dates for different countries, or if he was describing a turning in Spain or some other country.
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Post#3 at 08-24-2015 02:53 AM by Felix5 [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 2,793]
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What timeline was Spain on? It's possibly that Spain was off timeline with other European countries, the one thing that bound them was the Napoleonic wars.

In my opinion, the War seemed to be the start of a fourth turning. But this is only my opinion.







Post#4 at 08-24-2015 03:37 AM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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The war was over the succession to the crown of Spain, but it was about the position of France, and much of the fighting was done in Belgium (the Spanish Netherlands), Bavaria, and Italy. As to whether it was a 4T or 1T, that's a good question.







Post#5 at 08-24-2015 05:10 AM by Felix5 [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 2,793]
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The war was over the succession to the crown of Spain, but it was about the position of France, and much of the fighting was done in Belgium (the Spanish Netherlands), Bavaria, and Italy. As to whether it was a 4T or 1T, that's a good question.


True, so it was either the start of a first turning or the end of the fourth turning. Either way, we have an entire political and societal restructuring shift which is reflective of a fourth turning reset.







Post#6 at 08-24-2015 09:14 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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The War of Spanish Succession. Definitely one of my favorite historical time periods.
Man, somebody should seriously consider doing one of those 'historical mini-series thingys'
on this. What great personalities: William III of Orange(so cool!) and Mary, Queen Anne,
Pope Clement XI, Louis XIV, Prince Eugene, and the freaking coolest badass in all of Europe:
John Churchill; The 1st Duke of Marlborough!

I actually wanna hear what Chas has to say, but I'd be willing to discuss any of this stuff with
anybody that's interested in researching it.


Prince

PS: How about you, Goodspeed? Are you game?
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Post#7 at 08-24-2015 09:18 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by Gianthogweed View Post
I was watching Neil Howe on this youtube video
https://youtu.be/h6vYv9O0dEM?t=11m18s

He mentioned War of Spanish Succesion as being part of a fourth Turning. But that was 1701-1714, wouldn't this have taken place during the first turning of the revolutionary cycle?

edited because I linked the wrong video, oops.
Yeah, I was wondering about that. Not a problem, but damn if I wasn't scratching my head.
(the interview you first posted--both parts--were worth watching though, IMO. So, thanks!)


Prince

PS: And, the question you posed is an interesting one and an important one, IMO. Good call, Drakus.

Update: I think I found it(around the 5:30 mark),
but it was also stated in The Fourth Turning book
(The Saeculum of War and Peace starting at page 36).
OK. It looks like he's talking about Toynbee here.
Last edited by princeofcats67; 08-24-2015 at 12:00 PM. Reason: I went and checked the vid edit ... again.
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Post#8 at 08-24-2015 12:28 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
The War of Spanish Succession. Definitely one of my favorite historical time periods.
Man, somebody should seriously consider doing one of those 'historical mini-series thingys'
on this. What great personalities: William III of Orange(so cool!) and Mary, Queen Anne,
Pope Clement XI, Louis XIV, Prince Eugene, and the freaking coolest badass in all of Europe:
John Churchill; The 1st Duke of Marlborough!

I actually wanna hear what Chas has to say, but I'd be willing to discuss any of this stuff with
anybody that's interested in researching it.


Prince

PS: How about you, Goodspeed? Are you game?
It's a good period. I am a little busy right now, but it is a worthy topic. I might hop in in a little bit, and hopefully Chas will show up as well.

If you like the time period, you should check out The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson*, it goes from shortly before the Plague/Fire of London to the start of the Hanoverian dynasty in England, and features most of those people as characters.

*Note, it is fiction, albeit lavishly researched fiction.







Post#9 at 08-24-2015 12:35 PM by Gianthogweed [at joined Apr 2012 #posts 590]
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He was definitely referring to the US timeline though if you watch the video.
Last edited by Gianthogweed; 08-24-2015 at 12:44 PM.
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Post#10 at 08-24-2015 01:17 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
It's a good period. I am a little busy right now, but it is a worthy topic.
Got ya. I'm kinda busy today myself, but I'm interested.
(and FWIW, I just saw that you and Mikebert were talking over on that
Awakenings/Crises Thread, and after I have a chance to weed through
some of it, I believe I may have something you may find interesting).

Quote Originally Posted by JG
I might hop in in a little bit, and hopefully Chas will show up as well.
Sounds cool, and yes, I really want Chas' perspective(especially, but not exclusive, to Austria).
(I'd be very interested if you might post some thoughts on The Dutch Republic's position
before and after TWoSS. If you're interested and get a chance, of course. Your call.)

And to anyone else that wants to pick a country/participant and post some stuff, I'd say go for it.
I'm thinking, basically: France, Spain, The Dutch Republic, England, and Austria. I'm probably
going to post some stuff on England, and then y'all can feel free to rip it to shreds!

And, who knows? We might even be able to get Dave Krein's take on it. *fingers crossed*


Prince

PS:
Quote Originally Posted by JG
If you like the time period, you should check out The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson*, it goes from shortly before the Plague/Fire of London to the start of the Hanoverian dynasty in England, and features most of those people as characters.

*Note, it is fiction, albeit lavishly researched fiction.
Yeah. I may have to check that out sometime. Thanks for the heads-up.

And it's good to hear from you. I hope everything is going well.
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Post#11 at 08-24-2015 01:37 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Oh, the War of Spanish Succession was definitely an European 4T. Ben Franklin refers to it & The Great Northern War 40 years or so later in 1751 as:

The Importation of Foreigners into a Country that has as many Inhabitants as the present Employments and Provisions for Subsistence will bear; will be in the End no Increase of People; unless the New Comers have more Industry mid Frugality than the Natives, and then they will provide more Subsistence, and increase in the Country; but they will gradually eat the Natives out.-Nor is it necessary to bring it, Foreigners to fill up any occasional Vacancy in a Country; for such Vacancy (if the Laws are good, 14, 16) will soon be filled by natural Generation. Who can now find the Vacancy made in Sweden, France or other Warlike Nations, by the plague of Heroism 40 Years ago; in France, by the Expulsion of the Protestants; in England, by the Settlement of her Colonies; or in Guinea, by 100 Years Exportation of Slaves, that has blacken'd half America? -- The thinness of Inhabitants in Spain, is owing to National Pride and Idleness, and other Causes, rather than to the Expulsion of the Moors, or to the making of new Settlements.

--Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, pub. 1751
No other turning but a 4T could be called a "plague of Heroism", nor could any archetype but an Idealist think to call it a "plague".

I don't think the British were on a 4T then, as their 4T was clearly centered around the actions of 1688, with the popular culture becoming tame in the 1690s (like it is in the late 1930s or presently).

So if there's any evidence for Britain being separated from the other countries of Europe, it would be this.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#12 at 08-24-2015 02:34 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Oh, the War of Spanish Succession was definitely an European 4T. Ben Franklin refers to it & The Great Northern War 40 years or so later in 1751 as:



No other turning but a 4T could be called a "plague of Heroism", nor could any archetype but an Idealist think to call it a "plague".

I don't think the British were on a 4T then, as their 4T was clearly centered around the actions of 1688, with the popular culture becoming tame in the 1690s (like it is in the late 1930s or presently).

So if there's any evidence for Britain being separated from the other countries of Europe, it would be this.

~Chas'88
The Glorious Revolution is definitely important, but the War and the manoeuvring around the death of Queen Anne to put the Hanoverians on the throne was definitely important, too. There were dueling Tory and Whig militias in the streets of London, for Chrissakes. Could it be like the Revolution/Napoleonic wars, where the actual fighting straddles the boundary/muddies the waters?

EDIT TO ADD THe 1st Great Awakening wasn't till the 1730s, after all.
Last edited by JordanGoodspeed; 08-24-2015 at 02:38 PM.







Post#13 at 08-24-2015 07:01 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
The Glorious Revolution is definitely important, but the War and the manoeuvring around the death of Queen Anne to put the Hanoverians on the throne was definitely important, too. There were dueling Tory and Whig militias in the streets of London, for Chrissakes. Could it be like the Revolution/Napoleonic wars, where the actual fighting straddles the boundary/muddies the waters?

EDIT TO ADD THe 1st Great Awakening wasn't till the 1730s, after all.
Religious upswelling typically doesn't become popular until the end of a 2T--just like in America the preachings of Whitfield were primarily in the 1740s, Pentecostalism didn't come until the 1900s, the Prosperity Gospel not until the late 1970s and early 1980s, etc.

You can usually find the 2T/3T boundary by finding a spike in patriotism. You see this around 1900s America, 1980s America, 1980s in Britain, and 1745 - 1753ish in Britain: Rule Brittannia, coming out of this last period.

And one thing I'm quite positive of is the 2T/3T switchover all over Continental Europe separately (not including Britain), which everyone made note of in 1755: the earthquake near Lisbon, which disproved the foolish people with Panglossian views that "everything is for the good" and had a reverberating echo across Europe, not just Lisbon, we're told. It had a tremendous impact on the Age of Enlightenment thinkers and shakers, ultimately being a dividing point between what came before it and what came after in terms of Enlightenment thinking, one clearly being the idealism of a 2T and the other the nihilism of a 3T.

England however had a switchover to the 3T after failure of Bonnie Prince Charlie to take over coupled with George II's victory in Europe in 1745 which brought a resurgence in British Pride the following years, from which "Rule Britannia" and other such patriotic British expressions came about. The tune for "God Save the King" switching sides to being a pro-Hanoverian tune instead of the rebel Bonnie Prince Charlie tune, and other such things.

The late 2T/early 3T is typically a time for latent Patriotism to emerge like that, as Margaret Thatcher's England recalls, or Reagan's America, or Teddy's America. It's a sense of rediscovery of purpose tied to heritage that only a 2T/3T transition can express.

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 08-24-2015 at 07:04 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#14 at 08-24-2015 08:25 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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All actually very interesting. How about the parallels between the war under discussion and the Napoleonic wars, in terms of turning placement? I agree with you about the 2Ts end, but what about its beginning? When do you feel the Revolutionary saeculum 1T took place, and how do you think that ties in with the WSS?







Post#15 at 08-25-2015 05:08 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by Gianthogweed View Post
He was definitely referring to the US timeline though if you watch the video.
Yeah, I'm actually listening to it right at this moment.
I've gotta check out some stuff, and I'll edit this post
when I'm done. And again, nice find. Thanks again.


Prince

Update:

Alright. Here's my take. Sure enough, he said it. And not only in the updated Real Conversations-vid that you posted,
but also in that one that I grabbed off of the net. So, initially I was thinking he might just have been thinking along
Toynbee(et al) lines i/r/t apparently historical cyclical behavior(ie: Total/Major/Global/General/Etc. War), but after
seeing your vid, I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Anglo-American Timeline. And, that would indeed be a change
considering that the time period was previously demarcated as: The Glorious Revolution Crisis(1675-1704). T4T p. 45.
I'll have to think about this a bit. Interesting. Very interesting.
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Post#16 at 08-25-2015 06:05 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Oh, the War of Spanish Succession was definitely an European 4T. Ben Franklin refers to it & The Great Northern War 40 years or so later in 1751 as:

No other turning but a 4T could be called a "plague of Heroism", nor could any archetype but an Idealist think to call it a "plague".
<chuckle!>

BTW, Chas. Have you ever read that thing about Franklin's trip to Ireland before The American Revolution?

Quote Originally Posted by Chas
I don't think the British were on a 4T then, as their 4T was clearly centered around the actions of 1688, with the popular culture becoming tame in the 1690s (like it is in the late 1930s or presently).

So if there's any evidence for Britain being separated from the other countries of Europe, it would be this.

~Chas'88
Yeah. I believe we both are in agreement about how a 'saeculum' has a particular 'story' that can be found.
And, knowing that looking at things that way, any analysis is just begging for all sorts of 'guiding' things to
'fit' said 'narrative', I still pretty much use it after an analysis(at least i/r/t what a time period was 'about').

So, my thoughts were, and still pretty much are, that the broader 'story' of England/Great Britain/UK was
about unifying the territories. Basically:

1600: End of Tudors/Union of the Crowns
1700: Treaty of Union/Great Britain
1800: Act of Union/United Kingdom

So, I guess I just sorta left it at that, and figured any differences between England and the rest of Europe
was due to the English Channel; Any English activity/operations in Europe being 'over there', and that if
any timelines with other countries had merged, it was due to The Battle of Britain taking place on her own
soil.

That said, I think Jordan brings up a really good point about some similarities between The Napoleonic Wars
and WSS. But, that could just be an 'over there' sorta thing going-on. So, I believe what I'm saying is that
although England may still have it's own individual 'story/narrative' which goes along the lines of the
Glorious Revolution, when it's considered in context with the countries of 'Continental Europe', there may be
a different cycle occurring, altogether(ie: WSS, Napoleonic Wars). And, that there may be a broader 'story'
occurring maybe something like a change in definition of 'Balance of Power'(ie: Metternich/Congress of Vienna)

Aw Hell, I don't know!


Prince

PS: I think I really may be outta my league trying to discuss this stuff with
you guys, but if y'all don't mind too much, I'm still gonna give it a shot.
Last edited by princeofcats67; 08-26-2015 at 06:30 AM. Reason: clarification
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Post#17 at 08-25-2015 07:41 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
The Glorious Revolution is definitely important, but the War and the manoeuvring around the death of Queen Anne to put the Hanoverians on the throne was definitely important, too. There were dueling Tory and Whig militias in the streets of London, for Chrissakes. Could it be like the Revolution/Napoleonic wars, where the actual fighting straddles the boundary/muddies the waters?

EDIT TO ADD THe 1st Great Awakening wasn't till the 1730s, after all.
I hear you. The phrase that sticks with me is "end of an era".
And I can see a case made for both 1700 and 1715, and 1800 and 1815.

There's no doubt, I mean NO doubt, that 1815 isn't significant.
But, Anne doesn't appear to be a monarch in the sense of her
predecessors. I always get the feeling that she let other people
do all the work(and I think they really wanted it that way).

Maybe it's just that I'm biased because I like William III and Mary/John Churchill so much.
All that crap between Sarah and Anne seems so ... ahem, pardon me ... Civic.

As to Tory vs Whig and Catholic vs Protestant fighting, I'd say that it's kinda just noise that's
always present in that society.

Prince

PS: Hey, are you aware of all that Jacobite/Stone of Scone/Jacob's Ladder stuff? I love that crap!
(I'm actually being serious, though. I think it's kinda cool in a 'traditional' kinda way, I guess).
Last edited by princeofcats67; 08-25-2015 at 09:36 AM. Reason: rectification
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Post#18 at 08-25-2015 10:23 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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OK, guys. I believe this is what I'm thinking.

If there are separate Turnings occurring with individual countries, as far as England and France are concerned,
I kinda see both in a 100-year saeculum, with England being around the '00s, and France being around the '15s
as far as where the 4T/1T demarcation happens. And if that's the case, I'd also say that 'Continental Europe'
would be following along the French Timeline(ie: the '15s). I haven't looked at Spain, The Dutch Republic, or
Austria yet, though.

So, France is basically:

1715-Death of Louis XIV
1815-Defeat of Napoleon

Those both really seem like an 'end of an era' to me.

And I'm still sticking with England as, basically:

1700-Death of William III and Mary/Creation of Great Britain
1800-End of French Invasion Threat/Creation of The United Kingdom

Maybe I'm off, but around 1800, England(and George III) seem less
'aggressive' militarily, as they were previously, IMO. Again, you guys
are more up on this stuff than I am, but I'm just throwing that out there.
It's like George III is almost a completely different monarch after 1800.

Anyway, that's kinda where I'm at.


Prince
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Post#19 at 08-25-2015 10:43 AM by David Krein [at Gainesville, Florida joined Jul 2001 #posts 604]
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Prince - I have only one comment at this stage (I might have more to say after I get back to Florida Friday after spending the last 4 months at my summer place on Lake Delton, Wisconsin and have access to more of my earlier work on these issues) but suffice it to say at this point the threat of a French invasion of the newly formed UK didn't end until 1805 and the Battle of Trafalgar. Hence, I have the British prophet generation start being born in 1800.

Pax,

Dave Krein
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit shall lure it back to cancel half a line, Nor all your Tears wash out a word of it." - Omar Khayyam.







Post#20 at 08-25-2015 11:20 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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William Strauss was on board with the idea that the French Revolution was a 4T. Dedication to the national cause was total and enforced. To my mind, that would include the years of the 1780s when the nation was going bankrupt. Napoleon's empire was more like a first turning. Wars happen in first turnings, but under Napoleon there was a lot of conformity and obedience to the great leader. Napoleon was a more-warlike version of Washington, Eisenhower or Grant-- the general-ruler. Upon his rise to power in 1799, after his coup de'tat, Napoleon announced that "the revolution is over." That means the 4T was over, and a more consolidating, orderly 1st-turning attitude was now in force. So that puts the French timeline more in line with the British and American, which it should be since these two civilizations are linked historically.

That might mean more or less that Western Civilization is all on the same saeculum. So, war of spanish succession would be first turning too. But it's possible that Spain was on a later cycle. Napoleon's war was more disruptive there too, and in some other places.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 08-25-2015 at 11:29 AM.
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Post#21 at 08-25-2015 05:08 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,501]
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S&H always called the War of the Spanish Succession (Queen Anne's War) a 4T war for America, even though that war began in 1701 and the 4T ended in 1704. Modelski and Thompson combine this war with the War of the Grand Alliance (King William's war) into one "Crisis", what they call the Global War era. Note the 1689-1714 period spans 25 years, which is a standard turning length for the 100-year saeculum that was the norm then.

I do agree with Chas that the 1690's are not a core crisis for Britiain. The 1690's were a time if institution building akin to the post-WW II period. The importation of "Dutch finance" that required a formal government budget and the establishment of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Englanda central bank in 1694 that constitutes the transformation of Britain to a modern state. This would have major repercussions on Europe as formerly insignificant Britain became the pre-eminent power. In the previous century, the even more miniscule Netherlands had achieved hegemonic status as she had established the first Euopean central bank in 1609. Britain was surpassed by the United States, who established their central bank in 1913.

It is entirely possible that what Chas is seeing is a reflection of Modelski and Thompson. Except Chas doesn't come at this from their angle, he has his own angle (that I have found profitable in my investigation of the pre-1435 Anglo saeculum). Perhaps a discussion between Jordan and Chas would shed some light on the 17th to 18th century non-British European saeculum.
Last edited by Mikebert; 08-25-2015 at 05:30 PM.







Post#22 at 08-25-2015 08:59 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by David Krein View Post
Prince - I have only one comment at this stage (I might have more to say after I get back to Florida Friday after spending the last 4 months at my summer place on Lake Delton, Wisconsin and have access to more of my earlier work on these issues) but suffice it to say at this point the threat of a French invasion of the newly formed UK didn't end until 1805 and the Battle of Trafalgar. Hence, I have the British prophet generation start being born in 1800.

Pax,

Dave Krein
Hey, Dave. Thanks for the response.

Yes, Trafalgar. That was exactly what I was thinking.
(When I'm starting-out, I keep the dates a little 'loose',
and then maybe do a little fine tuning.)


Prince

PS: And, as far as I'm concerned, any of your contributions are appreciated.
Last edited by princeofcats67; 09-03-2015 at 03:42 AM. Reason: spelling
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Post#23 at 08-25-2015 09:37 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
S&H always called the War of the Spanish Succession (Queen Anne's War) a 4T war for America, even though that war began in 1701 and the 4T ended in 1704. Modelski and Thompson combine this war with the War of the Grand Alliance (King William's war) into one "Crisis", what they call the Global War era. Note the 1689-1714 period spans 25 years, which is a standard turning length for the 100-year saeculum that was the norm then.

I do agree with Chas that the 1690's are not a core crisis for Britiain. The 1690's were a time if institution building akin to the post-WW II period. The importation of "Dutch finance" that required a formal government budget and the establishment of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Englanda central bank in 1694 that constitutes the transformation of Britain to a modern state. This would have major repercussions on Europe as formerly insignificant Britain became the pre-eminent power. In the previous century, the even more miniscule Netherlands had achieved hegemonic status as she had established the first Euopean central bank in 1609. Britain was surpassed by the United States, who established their central bank in 1913.

It is entirely possible that what Chas is seeing is a reflection of Modelski and Thompson. Except Chas doesn't come at this from their angle, he has his own angle (that I have found profitable in my investigation of the pre-1435 Anglo saeculum). Perhaps a discussion between Jordan and Chas would shed some light on the 17th to 18th century non-British European saeculum.
Hey, Mike.

I'm going to stay out of the specifics here because I'm basically
just using this as an opportunity to read-up on some history.

But I was wondering if you've ever read Capitals of Capital?
(I haven't yet, but it's on 'the list').

Anyway, the move of the 'financial center' from Amsterdam, to London,
to New York, to ... eek!() is something I'm very interested in. In fact,
one of the most important by-products of William III of Orange(and Mary)
being chosen as the successor(s) to the English Crown might just be that
move from Amsterdam to London(or at least helped contribute to it).

But that said, I haven't identified the actual moments that these changes
occurred. For instance, I've heard that the move to the US actually was
sometime around the second half of the 1800s during the move westward
via investments in railroads and such. Any thoughts?


Prince
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#24 at 08-25-2015 11:55 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
08-25-2015, 11:55 PM #24
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Location
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POC, I do wonder if 1815 is a little too neat and even. I am reminded of the play:

The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum of Charenton Under the Direction of the Marquis de Sade, or as it's better known as in abbreviation: Marat/Sade

In it there's a little song as they chronicle from Marat's death (1793) to "present day" (1808) that serves as a good "breakdown" of the French Revolution Crisis in France, from a French POV.

Keep in mind though, that the play was written by a German (Peter Weiss, and originally in German), in the post-WWII period (1963) and is likely colored by Germany's recent experiment in dictatorship itself in its construction.

Anyway, here's a transcription of the English version of the play (filmed in 1967 by the RSC). I've linked where you can see the different parts on YouTube if you're a visual person, like myself. And I tried to capture the effect of having one of the actors flipping through the years on a sign as they line up with the lyrics via the table below.

"Now it is part of Sade's dramatic plan
to interrupt the action so that this man
Marat, can hear and gasp with his last breath
at how the world will go after his death.
With a musical history we'll bring him up to date.
From 1793 to 1808."

1793 Now your enemies fall, we're beheading them all.
1794 Duperee and Corday, executed in the same old way.
1795 Robspierre has to get on, he gets rid of Danton,
That was Spring, come July, and old Robspierre has to die,
1796 Three rebellions a year, but we're still of good cheer,
Malcontents all have been, taught their lesson by the guillotine
1797 There's the shortage of wheat, we're too happy to eat,
Austria cracks and then, she surrenders to our men.**
1798 What brave soldiers we've got, now the traitors are shot,
Generals boldly take, power and palace for the people's sake,
1799 Egypt's beaten down flat, Bonaparte did that,
1800 Cheer him as they retreat, even though we lose our fleet,
1801 Bonaparte comes back, gives our rulers the sack,
He's the man, brave and true, Bonaparte would die for you.
1802
Europe's free of her chains, only England remains,
But we want wars to cease, so there's fourteen months of peace.**
1803
England must be insane, wants to fight us again,
1804 So we march off to war, Bonaparte is our Emperor,
1805 Nelson bothers our fleet, but he's shot off his feet,
1806 We're on top, yes we are, and we spit on Trafalgar,
Now the Prussians retreat, Russia faces defeat,
1807 All the world bends its knee to Napoleon and his family,
1808 Fight on land and on sea, all men want to be free,
If they don't, never mind, we'll abolish all mankind!***


** = Refrain

REFRAIN

Fifteen glorious years! Fifteen glorious years!
Years of peace, years of war, each year greater than the year before,
Fifteen glorious, glorious, glorious years!
Marat, we're marching on!


*** = Final Refrain

FINAL REFRAIN

Fifteen glorious years! Fifteen glorious years!
Years of peace, years of war, each year greater than the year before,
Fifteen glorious, glorious, glorious years!
Marat, we're marching on!
Viva, Napoleon!****
Fifteen glorious years! Fifteen glorious years!
Years of peace, years of war, each year greater than the year before,
Fifteen glorious, glorious, glorious years!

**** = play within a play's audience stands up to show solidarity

The big point to me seems to be the "Fourteen Months of Peace" was this simply akin to , or was it actually enough of a Turning change for that to have been France's 1T beginning--because you do notice a change in the song after that, as the rest of the song is all about having an united front.

I should also note that the play is frequently interrupted by a rather Bourgeosie figure, the Director of the Asylum (and his family) who are representative of the new order around which Napoleon and the audience of the play within a play springs from. Who when confronted with the pure ideology of the Revolution in Sade's play within a play, feels the need to speak up and remind everyone or put "Marat" or other Revolutionary characters in their "place" with wagging fingers and other such warnins and interruptions:

Director: We're modern, enlightened, and we don't agree with locking up patients. We prefer therapy through education and especially art so that our hospital may play its part faithfully following according to our enlightenments the declaration of human rights. I agree with our author, Monsieur de Sade that this play, set in our modern bath house won't be marred for all these instruments for the mental and physical hygiene. Quite on the contrary, they set the scene, for Monsieur de Sade's play he has tried to show how Jean-Paul Marat died and how he waited in his bath before Charlotte Corday came knocking at his door.
Emcee: The revolution came and went, and was replaced by discontent!

De Rue: Who controls the markets? Who locked up the galleries? Who got the loot from the palaces? Who sits tight on the estates that were going to be divided between the poor?

Insane Man: Who keeps us prisoner?

Insane Man #2: Who locked us in?

Insane Man #3: We're all normal and we want our freedom. Freedom!

Insane Woman: Freedom! Freedom!

*general wailing of "Freedom!" amongst the patients*

*Director knocks his cane upon the ground three times and then stands to speak*

Director: Monsieur de Sade, it appears that I must act as the voice of reason. What's going to happen when right at the start of the play, the patients are so disturbed. Please keep your production under control. Times are changed, times are different, and these days we should take an objective view of old grievances, they're part of history. And history I might add, history is not simply the story of the undisciplined common people but let us consider instead, true history, the exemplary lives of the men who made France great.

Marat: Now it's happening and you can't stop it happening. The people used to suffer everything, now they take their revenge. You are watching that revenge and you don't remember that you drove the people to it. Now you protest but it is too late to start crying over spilt blood. What is the blood of the aristocrats compare to the blood the people shed for you? Many of them had their throats slit by your gangs, many of them died more slowly in your workshops. So what is this sacrifice compared to the sacrifice the people made to keep you fat? What are a few looted mansions compared to their looted lives? You don't care. If the foreign armies with whom you've been making secret deals march in and massacre the people and they can be wiped out so you can flourish, and when they are wiped out not a muscle will twitch in your puffy bourgeois faces which are now all twisted up with anger and disgust.

Director: Monsieur de Sade! We can't allow this. You really can't call this education. It isn't making my patients get any better, they are becoming overexcited. After all, we invited the public here to show them that our patients are not all social leapers.

Emcee: We only show these people being massacred because they indisputedly occurred. Please calmly watch these barborous displays which could not happen nowadays. The men of that time mostly I surmise, were primative, we are more civilized.

Marat: Our trusted minister of Finance, Monsieur Cambon is issuing fake bank notes, thus increasing inflation and diverting an entire fortune into his own pocket.

Insane Man: Long live free enterprise.

Marat: I am told that the wilely Perigo is in league with the English and the armored vaults beneath his banks are buzzing with renegades and spies!

Director: That's quite enough! We agreed to make no mention of the guttersnipe smears which the men supped on in the past. After all, we're living in 1808 and today these men hold posts of power that was each chosen personally by the Emperor."
So I lean 1T for 1808, with likely the 1802/1803 switch over being the likely point for both England and France.
Last edited by Chas'88; 08-26-2015 at 12:16 AM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#25 at 08-26-2015 12:15 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
08-26-2015, 12:15 AM #25
Join Date
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Location
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Hey, Mike.

I'm going to stay out of the specifics here because I'm basically
just using this as an opportunity to read-up on some history.

But I was wondering if you've ever read Capitals of Capital?
(I haven't yet, but it's on 'the list').

Anyway, the move of the 'financial center' from Amsterdam, to London,
to New York, to ... eek!() is something I'm very interested in. In fact,
one of the most important by-products of William III of Orange(and Mary)
being chosen as the successor(s) to the English Crown might just be that
move from Amsterdam to London(or at least helped contribute to it).

But that said, I haven't identified the actual moments that these changes
occurred. For instance, I've heard that the move to the US actually was
sometime around the second half of the 1800s during the move westward
via investments in railroads and such. Any thoughts?


Prince
The move to the USA was the 1920s, 1927 to be exact.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
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