We are already seven years into the 4T, and we have not seen the regeneracy yet. As Nathaniel Hawthorne spoke of the "Gray Champion" to describe the Puritan Generation during the Glorious Revolution, and later the Awakening Generation during the American Revolution, the Transcendental Generation during the Civil War, and the Missionary Generation during the Great Depression and World War II. As Lincoln and Roosevelt were the Gray Champions of their corresponding 4Ts, who among the Boomers is believed to become the next Grey Champion during the current 4T?

Obama is the Grey Champion - but we're in a MegaUnraveling.

The Grey Champion embodies the essence of the Turning preceding him. Lincoln was virtually the manifestation of the Romanticism of his day. Franklin Roosevelt embodied the experimentalism of the Great Power MegaAwakening. And Obama's heritage is a perfect representation of the ceaseless nomadic tendency of the past eighty years.

But being a Grey Champion in a MegaUnraveling almost certainly means a fate and reputation different from the others. Obama will not be regarded as a world-historical figure like his Grey Champion predecessors, but as someone who did the best with what he had. Only later will he probably be fully appreciated.

I would argue that the Grey Champion is a myth. One has to take into account that when S&H were writing they were essentially attempting to sell books to Boomers so that they had a particular story to tell themselves. I simply have not seen any Grey Champion arising in previous saeculums either.

That being said, Einzige is right to point out that most of us who subscribe to a mega-saeculum theory have argued that we are in fact in a Mega-Unraveling, with only Eric-the-Ignoramus arguing that we are in an Mega-Awakening. But if you read enough of his posts you'll find that Eric is in fact the village idiot round here and can be safely ignored.

The GC isn't a single person, but the archetype of the Prophet generation in elderhood.

Originally Posted by Einzige

Obama is the Grey Champion - but we're in a MegaUnraveling.

The Grey Champion embodies the essence of the Turning preceding him. Lincoln was virtually the manifestation of the Romanticism of his day. Franklin Roosevelt embodied the experimentalism of the Great Power MegaAwakening. And Obama's heritage is a perfect representation of the ceaseless nomadic tendency of the past eighty years.

There was no Awakening in that saeculum except during the Awakening portion of it. The past 70 years have been a mega-high. There has been no other time in the history of the USA which can match it in that respect; not even close.

But, it is the mega-cycle which is the myth.

But being a Grey Champion in a MegaUnraveling almost certainly means a fate and reputation different from the others. Obama will not be regarded as a world-historical figure like his Grey Champion predecessors, but as someone who did the best with what he had. Only later will he probably be fully appreciated.

Yes he will, but we have at least 13 years for more grey champions to emerge. Over 10 years ago hears ago here I said it would be Hillary.

Originally Posted by Odin

The GC isn't a single person, but the archetype of the Prophet generation in elderhood.

And yet, the way it is described in the books, it would seem to be a single individual and not a large mass. I'm not even sure that a large mass is capable of being a GC. Over all, the evidence seems to indicate that the GC is in fact a myth and looking for one is a futile exercise.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

And yet, the way it is described in the books, it would seem to be a single individual and not a large mass. I'm not even sure that a large mass is capable of being a GC. Over all, the evidence seems to indicate that the GC is in fact a myth and looking for one is a futile exercise.

Agreed. It is a myth that was created specifically for New Englanders, I might add. Hawthorne, upon further reflection, seems to be poking fun at the kind of the British Arthurian expectations of awaiting a "hero" in a "time of need" to arise and "save the country". Only New England's "King Arthur" is a crotchety old man whom everyone forgot who he was and that he was still alive he's so old (that's literally the description Hawthorne brings to the table). That speaks of satirical intent if ever I noticed it, as the Heroic Arthur is a legend for all time and able to act and do much, while the "Grey Champion"? Everyone wonders at first why the heck he isn't dead already and they don't recall his name. He does nothing but gives an angry old man rant before hobbling off again--contrast this to the Arthur who swings his sword and is a man of action. Again, upon further reflection this is satire which was never really intended to be taken literally. Sure there's a nice little tie in with the American Revolution, but that's just part of the falsified "myth making". Which makes sense, considering Hawthorne's an Idealist/Nomad cusper archetype last I checked (by my reckoning, S&H dogma would make him just a plain Idealist), and they often complain of the "plague of heroism" of Civic archetypes, and doubt such experiences. Isn't that right, Rags & herbaltee?

~Chas'88

Although we are seeing a few hints of The Regeneracy, the masses are too dumbed down and numbed out to care, and meanwhile activists and hacktivists are too insular and wedded to their various extremes, to embrace unity. We will not see The Regeneracy until the nukes start flying. Given likely timing (I'll stick my neck out and bet that the SHTF in '18 or '19), the Grey Champion may be a Nomad not a Prophet. By '18 the oldest Xers will be 57 which is within the Grey Champion window. But if not, and the GC ends up being Boom, we're no doubt talking Disco Boom.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

Although we are seeing a few hints of The Regeneracy, the masses are too dumbed down and numbed out to care, and meanwhile activists and hacktivists are too insular and wedded to their various extremes, to embrace unity. We will not see The Regeneracy until the nukes start flying. Given likely timing (I'll stick my neck out and bet that the SHTF in '18 or '19), the Grey Champion may be a Nomad not a Prophet. By '18 the oldest Xers will be 57 which is within the Grey Champion window. But if not, and the GC ends up being Boom, we're no doubt talking Disco Boom.

If the nukes start flying, we won't see a regeneracy, but destruction. No regeneracy there! I mean duh..... the foreign challenges today are part of our 4T, no doubt, but the main thrust is likely to be domestic. There's a lot of dumbing out, but also a lot of frustration. Being in the 1850s redux as we are, things are confused and muddled, not to mention totally blocked and deadlocked; but they will get clearer later and things will move fast.

The archetypal "grey champions" in T4T were all late prophets or even prophet/nomad hybrids. So that's a good bet. Let's hope they are better than "disco boomers," since disco is so tacky. Naturally this (or these) gray champs will have imbibed some of the idealism of their older brothers and sisters. On the other hand, since several such gray champs may appear, then it's not out of bounds to assign the role to older leaders like Hillary or even the silent/boom Bernie.... and then another one will come along. Brian Rush and others have mentioned that there are actually many gray champions, not just presidents like FDR and Lincoln or statesman Benji Franklin. There are many fields in which prophets can exercize their leadership and share their inspiration.

As for Xers, it doesn't look good in politics considering the crop that largely dominates the Xer crowd in politics now. Today's "conservatives" cannot fit the role. No doubt there are exceptions like Tammy Baldwin and Corey Booker. The latter, though he has the best outlook now for a possible presidency among Xers, he may be too much of a compromiser when the need will be for action that challenges things as they are.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

If the nukes start flying, we won't see a regeneracy, but destruction. No regeneracy there! I mean duh..... the foreign challenges today are part of our 4T, no doubt, but the main thrust is likely to be domestic. There's a lot of dumbing out, but also a lot of frustration. Being in the 1850s redux as we are, things are confused and muddled, not to mention totally blocked and deadlocked; but they will get clearer later and things will move fast.

The archetypal "grey champions" in T4T were all late prophets or even prophet/nomad hybrids. So that's a good bet. Let's hope they are better than "disco boomers," since disco is so tacky. Naturally this (or these) gray champs will have imbibed some of the idealism of their older brothers and sisters. On the other hand, since several such gray champs may appear, then it's not out of bounds to assign the role to older leaders like Hillary or even the silent/boom Bernie.... and then another one will come along. Brian Rush and others have mentioned that there are actually many gray champions, not just presidents like FDR and Lincoln or statesmen Benji Franklin. There are many fields in which prophets can exercize their leadership and share their inspiration.

As for Xers, it doesn't look good in politics considering the crop that largely dominates the Xer crowd in politics now. Today's "conservatives" cannot fit the role.

Eric, past generations did not understand how to use nuclear weapons. Furthermore, past weapons were crude, and the delivery systems were highly inaccurate. Thus, the "On The Beach" paradigm entered the public psyche.

Things have changed. Delivery systems can now place a warhead into a specific building or facility. Yields are lower and can be tuned for effects ranging from high concussion to a barely detectable explosion but high neutron flux. Such weapons would not be used for "carpet bombing" or as "city busters."

However, I cannot think of a better way to destroy an airfield or a submarine pen.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

Eric, past generations did not understand how to use nuclear weapons. Furthermore, past weapons were crude, and the delivery systems were highly inaccurate. Thus, the "On The Beach" paradigm entered the public psyche.

Things have changed. Delivery systems can now place a warhead into a specific building or facility. Yields are lower and can be tuned for effects ranging from high concussion to a barely detectable explosion but high neutron flux. Such weapons would not be used for "carpet bombing" or as "city busters."

However, I cannot think of a better way to destroy an airfield or a submarine pen.

It's irrelevant then. We have smart bombs now. Using one particular weapon or another does not create a regeneracy.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Agreed. It is a myth that was created specifically for New Englanders, I might add. Hawthorne, upon further reflection, seems to be poking fun at the kind of the British Arthurian expectations of awaiting a "hero" in a "time of need" to arise and "save the country". Only New England's "King Arthur" is a crotchety old man whom everyone forgot who he was and that he was still alive he's so old (that's literally the description Hawthorne brings to the table). That speaks of satirical intent if ever I noticed it, as the Heroic Arthur is a legend for all time and able to act and do much, while the "Grey Champion"? Everyone wonders at first why the heck he isn't dead already and they don't recall his name. He does nothing but gives an angry old man rant before hobbling off again--contrast this to the Arthur who swings his sword and is a man of action. Again, upon further reflection this is satire which was never really intended to be taken literally. Sure there's a nice little tie in with the American Revolution, but that's just part of the falsified "myth making". Which makes sense, considering Hawthorne's an Idealist/Nomad cusper archetype last I checked (by my reckoning, S&H dogma would make him just a plain Idealist), and they often complain of the "plague of heroism" of Civic archetypes, and doubt such experiences. Isn't that right, Rags & herbaltee?

~Chas'88

You know...whenever, Chas agrees with a point I make I have a feeling that I'm standing on solid ground.

I agree that it's a myth. It's important to avoid literalize abstractions such as these.

Originally Posted by annla899

I agree that it's a myth. It's important to avoid literalize abstractions such as these.

This forum needs a like button, like freefourms.net has.

~Chas'88

Boomers like the myth because it's a compliment that we might produce one (or them). Xers and Millennials don't like the myth, because it's an insult that they won't.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Boomers like the myth because it's a compliment that we might produce one (or them). Xers and Millennials don't like the myth, because it's an insult that they won't.

No, we don't like the myth because waiting for a magical person to solve all your problems for you is unrealistic and a problem unto itself that speaks of psychological issues, and is ultimately absurd. There's no jealousy factor because there's nothing to be jealous about.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

No, we don't like the myth because waiting for a magical person to solve all your problems for you is unrealistic and a problem unto itself that speaks of psychological issues, and is ultimately absurd. There's no jealousy factor because there's nothing to be jealous about.

~Chas'88

Waiting for Godot lol great play

Well, maybe so, but do you think Strauss and Howe have those problems, or did they actually think the idea is a part of history?

And maybe we could be jealous of the past if other 4Ts gave us Franklin, Franklin Roosevelt, and Lincoln, and ours does not.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Waiting for Godot lol great play

Well, maybe so, but do you think Strauss and Howe have those problems, or did they actually think the idea is a part of history?

And maybe we could be jealous of the past if other 4Ts gave us Franklin, Franklin Roosevelt, and Lincoln, and ours does not.

So what you are saying is that it is impossible for Nomad generations to produce great statespersons? Nevermind that FDR himself was one year shy of being a Lost himself...history indicates that great statespeople can and do arise when there is a need for one. That being said, expecting some magical person to arise and solve all our problems is a myth.

Franklin didn't solve very many problems at all during the revolution even if he did accomplish more at 8pm in the Salons of Paris acting like a Flop than John Adams could at 8am in his office. Lincoln certainly didn't solve all the nation's problems before he and John Wilkes Booth had their theater date. And FDR certainly didn't solve all the nation's problems or even most of them during the Depression and WW2.

The fact of the matter is that this mystical person has never made an appearance, because it is a myth. It is a story made up by Nathanial Hawthorne, it has no more factual evidence than The Scarlet Letter (and probably less actually).

Originally Posted by Kinser79

So what you are saying is that it is impossible for Nomad generations to produce great statespersons? Nevermind that FDR himself was one year shy of being a Lost himself...history indicates that great statespeople can and do arise when there is a need for one. That being said, expecting some magical person to arise and solve all our problems is a myth.

Franklin didn't solve very many problems at all during the revolution even if he did accomplish more at 8pm in the Salons of Paris acting like a Flop than John Adams could at 8am in his office. Lincoln certainly didn't solve all the nation's problems before he and John Wilkes Booth had their theater date. And FDR certainly didn't solve all the nation's problems or even most of them during the Depression and WW2.

The fact of the matter is that this mystical person has never made an appearance, because it is a myth. It is a story made up by Nathanial Hawthorne, it has no more factual evidence than The Scarlet Letter (and probably less actually).

Does the myth, as Strauss and Howe relate it, claim that a gray champion "solves all of our problems?" I don't think so; let alone by "magic."

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Does the myth, as Strauss and Howe relate it, claim that a gray champion "solves all of our problems?" I don't think so; let alone by "magic."

Considering that I've actually read the book, and given that they spend less than a paragraph on it, I would say that it largely something that should have been edited out. The idea that a single figure is going to come along and tell people what they need to do, is indeed very much in the Arthurian myth variety. It has never happened in any saeculum to date, it will happen in no saeculum in the future. At most, one might be able to say that there will be many different elder states people (and in a 4T that will be Prophets as well as older nomads) who will offer solutions to the problems at hand.

This, however, is not some sort of magic, it hardly requires a myth to back it up. It is merely state craft--something humans have been practicing since the existence of states.

Also reading the source material itself may help:

http://www.eldritchpress.org/nh/gray.html

The idea and personification of the Grey Champion has been among the most discussed topics, and it's still unresolved. I guess that's not surprising. We like wizards and heroes, and that concept fits right in. I'm in the camp that says the concept is generic: the Grey Champion is a role, not a person. I can't think of one individual who manifested this trait uniquely, and dragged the nation forward into a great transformation. The two most cited, Lincoln and FDR, were team leaders not solo acts. Yet we still seem determined to find The One.

Maybe the idea is that our collective conceptualization gets enough momentum, such that it crystallizes. Then all it takes is for the right folks to articulate it. Then everyone says, "Hey, that's it! Count me in." And off we go into the 1T.

The Tipping Point thingy.

Or it could just simply be pure myth. I've never subscribed to GCs as actually existing either on the personified level or in a collective format.

What do you guys think of the concept that the Grey Champion (who may
not always be grey) is the person who emerges to lead the young people
into war? Thus, Hitler would be a Grey Champion. I've been using
that concept with reference to the young (13-22 year old) Oslo
Generation of Palestinians who hold Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas in
contempt, and want a leader who will "do something about the
occupation."

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

What do you guys think of the concept that the Grey Champion (who may
not always be grey) is the person who emerges to lead the young people
into war? Thus, Hitler would be a Grey Champion. I've been using
that concept with reference to the young (13-22 year old) Oslo
Generation of Palestinians who hold Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas in
contempt, and want a leader who will "do something about the
occupation."

4Ts don't require a war, regardless of what your neoconservative butchering of the theory says.