Steve Ryan examined Irish history and detected the cycle of turnings and archetypes. There was one anomalous Crisis, the Potato Famine or Great Hunger, which warped one saeculum.
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Far Western Christian Civilization In "Reconsiderations Of Particular Topics," Arnold Toynbee commented that Ireland was still in the pre-civilizational stage before the fifth century of the Christain era. He dated the beginning of the Far Western Civilization from about the fifth century, and its survival till somewhat beyond A.D. 1000. Toynbee wrote that the Far Western Christian Civilization was a melding of Celtic elements with Christianity-this conforms to a pattern described by Carrol Quigley, in which a Mixture of cultures is followed by a period of Gestation from which a new civilization is born. (In his Clash of Civilizations... book Huntington noted that religion is the most important component in defining a civilization, with language being the second most important). Quigley dates Western Civ's Mixture A.D. 300-750, and Gestation A.D. 750-970. I speculate that the Mixture and Gestation phases were substatially shorter for Ireland, for an adult can convert to a new religion. According to Toynbee Ireland was relatively advanced compared to early Western Civilization. This cultural amalgam-this new civilization-was founded by an Awakening. The following list is from the March 17 '98 post by Steve Ryan, Western European thread, Beyond America archive: Late 300s/early 400s-Niall of the Nine Hostages becomes High King of Ireland and begins assault on Roman Britian. He leads a great alliance of Irish and Picts. Thousand of slaves are taken from Britian, including young Saint Patrick. Middle 400s-Awakening-Saint Patrick returns to Ireland. He is not the first to bring Christianity to Ireland, but his preaching causes mass conversions. 400s/500s-Crisis-in a civil war, the Ui Neills (or O'Neil-descendents of Niall of the Nine Hostages) capture the High Kingship, which they hold for the next five centuries. The Scots cross over to Scotland, and establish the kingdom of Dalraida. Middle 500s-Awakening-St. Columba begins missionary work. Becoming fascinated by monasticism, he begins to found monastaries, and sets the tone that Irish Cristianity will follow for the next five-hundred years. Golden era of Hiberno-Latin hymns and penitentials. 500s/600s-Crisis-High King Aedh Uairidhnach sets out to destroy all Leinster warrior, and dies in the attempt. At this time, Ireland sends out scores of missionaries to Scotland, Gaul and Germany. Middle 600s-Awakening-Irish Christianity reformed. At the Synod of Whitby, the Irish accept many Roman religious practices, abandoning many local ones that they had maintained since St. Patrick's days. 600s/700s-Crisis-Saxon king Egfrid of Northumberland invades Ireland, burning churches and monastaries. Ireland unites, destroying Egfrid and his army. The synod of Tara exempts women from warfare. Three years of famine and pestilence reduce some to cannabalism. Canon law compiled and systematized. Middle 700s-Awakening-A rough era of famine, earthquakes, pestilence, and revival. High-King Nial Frassagh abdicates his throne, and becomes a monk. 700s/800s-Crisis-the Vikings arrive, and begin plundering monastaries. The book of Kells is completed. Middle 800s-Awakening-era of confused loyalties. During an era of intense Viking activity, some Irish begin allaying with Norsemen against Irish rivals. Viking activity changes, and Norsemen begin settling and founding cities, such as Dublin . 800s/900s-Crisis-during the "Forty Years Peace" an era of decreased Viking activity, the Irish fight among themselves. Middle 900s-Awakening-Ui Neill family engages in vicious power struggle among themselves. Dublin Danes convert to Christianity. Rise of Dal Cais, with the young Prophet Mathgamain at their head. They lead a guerilla war against the Norse. Mathgamain is assassinated, and his Nomad brother Brian Boru takes over. 900s/1000s-Crisis-Mail Sechnaill, King of Tara defeats the Norse of Munster, and takes Dublin. Brian Boru defeats the king of Leinster and his Norse allies and becomes High-King. Mael Sechnaill gives full support to Brian who styles himself Emperor of Ireland. Leinster and Dublin rise up against Brian. At the battle of Clontarf, Brian breaks Viking power for good, but dies at the end of the day. "This is the last great Crisis for 800 years!" Middle 1000s-Awakening-popular resentment against injustice and abuses of clergy result in great disorder and attacks on churches. Kings, such as Donnchad mac Briain reform church and pass religious legislation, including laws against manual labor on Sundays. 1000s/1100s-Crisis-Pestilence carries away 25% of population of Ireland. A civil war ends the dynasty of the O'Briens (descendents of Brian Boru), and Turlough O'Connor comes to the throne as High-King. The Synod of Rath Braesail reorganizes Ireland into 24 sees ending the old monastic organization. Middle 1100s-Awakening-era of great church reform, cistercians introduced, tithes begun, Synod of Kells further reforms church organization. Dermot Mac Murrough ("the greatest traitor in Irish history") flees to England, and requests English assistance. English send Strongbow, who conquers Ireland beginning in 1167. 1100s/1200s-Crisis-Prince John arrives, and insults Irish leaders. Connaught rises in rebellion. General civil war seeps Ireland. Ends when King John arrives with a massive army. (To borrow Toynbee's terminology, the conquered Far Western Christian Civilization had become a satellite-or should I say captured?-civilization-Tim Walker). ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
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This material is again borrowed from Steve Ryan's March 17th '98 post: Middle 1200s-Awakening-Gaelic Revival. Connaught rebels again, this time spear headed by the young men (Prophets). The sons of the kings of Thurmond and Connaught place Brian O'Neill on the throne as the last Irish High King. He is defeated and killed. 1200s/1300s-Crisis-the Irish crown Edward Bruce (brother of Robert the Bruce of Scotland) High King of Ireland. But he arrives too late, the Crisis is over. His heroes of Bannockbriun prove unable to rally post-Crisis Irish, and he is defeated and killed. Middle 1300s-Awakening-black death arrives in Ireland, the people listen to Archbishop Richard FitzRalph, and place their hope for deliverance with the Virgin Mary. Statutes of Kilkennis prohibit Irish language and culture, and forbids intermarriage between Irish and English. Too late, the inhabitants of the pale begin to go native. 1300s/1400s-Crisis-Irish chiefs (the old Irish kingdoms have been smashed by the English) make war against the Pale. King Richard II arrives with the largest army ever seen in Ireland. Middle 1400s-Awakening-Richard, Duke of York, rallies both the Anglo- and Gaelic Irish in a crusade against the house of Lancaster. The Irish Parliment declares its independence of the English one. Blarney Castle is finished, complete with the Blarney Stone. 1400s/1500s-Crisis-Anglo-Irish back Lambert Simnel, and invade England, only to be defeated. Edward Poynings, with an English army reasserts control in Ireland, and places Ireland under English parliment, "Poynings Law." Middle 1500s-Awakening-Henry VIII and Elizabeth I, try to export Reformation to Ireland, only to be met with increasing resistance. Shane the Proud stands before Elizabeth and demands his right to be named O'Neill (head of the clan) based on Irish law, rather than English. 1500s/1600s-Crisis-Nomad Hugh O'Neill begins conflict with the English, sparking the Nine Years War. Cahir O'Doherty leads a further rebellion. Plantation of Ulster implemented, injecting Protestantism into Ireland for the first time. Old English (Catholic English who arrived before this time) stave off anti-Catholic legislation. Middle 1600s-Awakening-Great Gaelic/Great Catholic Rebellion, religious war. Cromwell arrives bringing pillage and murder such as Ireland hasn't seen since the Viking attacks, if then. Cromwell gives away the land to his followers, leaving 22% in Catholic hands. 1600s/1700s-Crisis-War of the Two Kings. Penal laws deprive Catholics of citizenship, even education. The Wild Geese flee to Catholic Europe. 7% of land left in Catholic hands.
18th Century Saeculum The list of generations is from the April 25, '97 post by Steve Ryan; the list of turnings from the the April 21 & April 25 posts by Mr. Ryan; Western European thread, Beyond America archive. ?-1726-Prophet. Charles Lucas, the Darling of the Dublin mob. 1727-1752-Nomad. John Fizgibbon standing firm against concessions to Catholics. 1753-1778-Hero. Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmettt fighting on, even when the cause was lost; and Danielle O'Connell leading the young in a different sort of battle, protests. 1779-1802-Artist. Theobold Mathew whose enemy was alcoholism; and William Carleton, did he trade his Catholicism for success with the Protestants? The turnings: Low 1691-1720, Unraveling 1747-1775, Crisis 1775-1803.
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The Potato Famine Saeculum included the anomaly produced by The Great Hunger. Of those who remained in Ireland I have borrowed Steve Ryan's list from his April 25 '97 post: The Prophet/Nomad generation, born 1803-1820-scarred by the Hunger, radical 1845, cautious after 1850; Paul Cullen, a radical youth who revolutionized Catholic practices, but later stood against nationalism; Isaac Butt organized the Irish delegates in the British Parliment, but proved ineffective; and Charles Duffy, who fled to Australia and declared Ireland a corpse on the dissecting table. Artist, born 1821-1845-James Stephens preparing for a rising but cancelled it at the last moment, he was overthrown by the more forceful American Fenians.
Tim, I forgot which thread I was posting under. You can respond to my posting under the material cause thread or here. DMMcG
Quoting from McNeil's The Rise Of The West: "...the Celtic fringe of Europe saw an extraordinary cultural upsurge in the fifth and sixth centuries...The remote position which rendered Ireland immune from serious invasion encouraged this precocious flowering in an age when Britain and the Continent were repeatedly harassed by barbarians. When the Scandinavian Vikings brought that immunity to an end, Irish civilization glimmered and died; and Ireland sank to the status of a backward outpost...." Could some of the saeculae listed by Steve Ryan been an illusion?
> Quoting from McNeil's The Rise Of The West: "...the Celtic fringe of
> Europe saw an extraordinary cultural upsurge in the fifth and sixth
> centuries...The remote position which rendered Ireland immune from
> serious invasion encouraged this precocious flowering in an age when
> Britain and the Continent were repeatedly harassed by barbarians.
> When the Scandinavian Vikings brought that immunity to an end, Irish
> civilization glimmered and died; and Ireland sank to the status of a
> backward outpost...." Could some of the saeculae listed by Steve Ryan
> been an illusion?
Yes, during the fourth and fifth centuries, Ireland was dynamically exporting its culture. Heck, it had so influenced the British, that the Church organized the Synod of Whitby in 664 to pull them religiously back into Rome?s orbit. This was the probably the greatest triumph of Western/Roman Culture over Celtic Culture, in that the future England was locked firmly into Western Culture, while the Celtic Culture was rolled back to the fringe of Europe.
By the time Brian Boru broke the Viking?s power in Ireland at Clontarf in 1014, the process of culturally absorbing the resident Vikings was already far along. This started the last great flowering of Irish culture, when Ireland might have taken its own path. This was shattered in 1169 when the greatest wave of barbarians arrived.
In a certain way, the author is correct to say, ?Ireland sank to the status of a backward outpost [of the West.]? Before the Viking invasions, Ireland could, and did, send out missionaries and merchants. It was open to outside influences, and could influence the outside world. When the Vikings came, they successfully cut Ireland off from the outside world. As far as the power centers of Europe (Rome, Paris, London, etc.) were concerned Ireland dropped off of the face of the Earth. When the Anglo-Normans arrived, they actually deepened Ireland?s isolation from European affairs. When kings looked for allies, when artists and scientist looked for patronage, they did not look to Ireland. When Irish artists created, when Irish workers built, they were not allowed to export to Europe.
Now, there was always a Western presence in Ireland in the form of the Pale, and so forth, but were the Irish Western? I just don?t see it. Did they experience Roman law? Did they have the Roman/Bishopric form of Christianity? Did they experience feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation? I would argue that infusion of European ideas did not begin until the Age of Enlightenment.
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Has Ireland, at this point, become so Anglicized as to be Western? Or is it something of a Far Western Christian Civilization?
[New User Name, when I tried to put it my password, it said that it was wrong. When I told it I forgot it, it said that it e-mailed me a new password, but none has come through!]
?Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.? Samuel Beckett (1906-1989/Hero) Irish playwright, novelist.
Yes, Ireland enthusiastically embraced Western ideas during and after the Enlightenment. With that, Ireland moved firmly into the Western civilization. As a matter of fact, Ireland is now at the forefront of the movement for the unification of Europe under the EU.
Digressing a bit, but Ireland is one of many countries/locales that are effected profoundly, even if indirectly, by the events of September 11th. As a result of the latter, any hope of a united Ireland can now be effectively abandoned - at least in the lifetimes of most of those alive today, since any cause that bears the taint of "terrorism" (whether the attribution is "fair" or not) has become completely discredited (in the same vein, Spain's Basques can say "Hasta la vista" to any sovereignty aspirations they might still harbor).
Don't know who, but someone said that an idea is not responsible for those who believe in it. That's no longer true - not since September 11th.
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Irish schools track truants via parental cell phone
The truant officer for the 21st century is the mobile phone. Two schools in Dublin are experimenting with a new way to combat school skipping. Right after daily roll call, school officials send a text message to parents’ cell phones, letting them know that their child was absent that day. If the absence is not excused, parents can contact the school. Dublin’s 900-student Portmarnock Community School, which has been testing the system, says that students initially were reluctant to supply parents’ cell phone numbers. But other than that small hump, the school has found the system very efficient. It’s to the parents’ advantage. New Irish laws permit the fining and imprisonment of parents who don’t curb persistently truant children.
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."
England has been an integral member of western civilization since the 7th or 8th centuries AD and the English publics are very wary of unifying Europe under a bureaucratic super state like the EU. I suspect a quite large minority of the English would go for withdrawing The UK out of the EU totally.Originally Posted by Steven Ryan
England has been an integral member of western civilization since the 7th or 8th centuries AD and the English publics are very wary of unifying Europe under a bureaucratic super state like the EU. I suspect a quite large minority of the English would go for withdrawing The UK out of the EU totally.
England has been an integral member of western civilization since the 7th or 8th centuries AD and the English publics are very wary of unifying Europe under a bureaucratic super state like the EU. I suspect a quite large minority of the English would go for withdrawing The UK out of the EU totally.
England has been an integral member of western civilization since the 7th or 8th centuries AD and the English publics are very wary of unifying Europe under a bureaucratic super state like the EU. I suspect a quite large minority of the English would go for withdrawing The UK out of the EU totally.
I do not know even before the Norman Conquest, Ireland was advanced as you point out Steve. Technological and in social organization Ireland certainly was not advanced, it was primitive. The 'barbarian' Norse brought the idea of cities and currency to Ireland and the Irish still used chariots long after they fell out of use in the rest of Europe. This is utter contrast to England which had the most developed government structure in England and its technology and social organization was as advanced as any in Europe.By the time Brian Boru broke the Viking?s power in Ireland at Clontarf in 1014, the process of culturally absorbing the resident Vikings was already far along. This started the last great flowering of Irish culture, when Ireland might have taken its own path. This was shattered in 1169 when the greatest wave of barbarians arrived.
If Ireland had not been colonised by the English starting in the 11th century, which included extensive colonization of English and Scottish settlers. Ireland's entry into western civilisation would have occured a lot later.Now, there was always a Western presence in Ireland in the form of the Pale, and so forth, but were the Irish Western? I just don?t see it. Did they experience Roman law? Did they have the Roman/Bishopric form of Christianity? Did they experience feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation? I would argue that infusion of European ideas did not begin until the Age of Enlightenment.
I do not know even before the Norman Conquest, Ireland was advanced as you point out Steve. Technological and in social organization Ireland certainly was not advanced, it was primitive. The 'barbarian' Norse brought the idea of cities and currency to Ireland and the Irish still used chariots long after they fell out of use in the rest of Europe. This is utter contrast to England which had the most developed government structure in England and its technology and social organization was as advanced as any in Europe.By the time Brian Boru broke the Viking?s power in Ireland at Clontarf in 1014, the process of culturally absorbing the resident Vikings was already far along. This started the last great flowering of Irish culture, when Ireland might have taken its own path. This was shattered in 1169 when the greatest wave of barbarians arrived.
If Ireland had not been colonised by the English starting in the 11th century, which included extensive colonization of English and Scottish settlers. Ireland's entry into western civilisation would have occured a lot later.Now, there was always a Western presence in Ireland in the form of the Pale, and so forth, but were the Irish Western? I just don?t see it. Did they experience Roman law? Did they have the Roman/Bishopric form of Christianity? Did they experience feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation? I would argue that infusion of European ideas did not begin until the Age of Enlightenment.
I do not know even before the Norman Conquest, Ireland was advanced as you point out Steve. Technological and in social organization Ireland certainly was not advanced, it was primitive. The 'barbarian' Norse brought the idea of cities and currency to Ireland and the Irish still used chariots long after they fell out of use in the rest of Europe. This is utter contrast to England which had the most developed government structure in England and its technology and social organization was as advanced as any in Europe.By the time Brian Boru broke the Viking?s power in Ireland at Clontarf in 1014, the process of culturally absorbing the resident Vikings was already far along. This started the last great flowering of Irish culture, when Ireland might have taken its own path. This was shattered in 1169 when the greatest wave of barbarians arrived.
If Ireland had not been colonised by the English starting in the 11th century, which included extensive colonization of English and Scottish settlers. Ireland's entry into western civilisation would have occured a lot later.Now, there was always a Western presence in Ireland in the form of the Pale, and so forth, but were the Irish Western? I just don?t see it. Did they experience Roman law? Did they have the Roman/Bishopric form of Christianity? Did they experience feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation? I would argue that infusion of European ideas did not begin until the Age of Enlightenment.
I do not know even before the Norman Conquest, Ireland was advanced as you point out Steve. Technological and in social organization Ireland certainly was not advanced, it was primitive. The 'barbarian' Norse brought the idea of cities and currency to Ireland and the Irish still used chariots long after they fell out of use in the rest of Europe. This is utter contrast to England which had the most developed government structure in England and its technology and social organization was as advanced as any in Europe.By the time Brian Boru broke the Viking?s power in Ireland at Clontarf in 1014, the process of culturally absorbing the resident Vikings was already far along. This started the last great flowering of Irish culture, when Ireland might have taken its own path. This was shattered in 1169 when the greatest wave of barbarians arrived.
If Ireland had not been colonised by the English starting in the 11th century, which included extensive colonization of English and Scottish settlers. Ireland's entry into western civilisation would have occured a lot later.Now, there was always a Western presence in Ireland in the form of the Pale, and so forth, but were the Irish Western? I just don?t see it. Did they experience Roman law? Did they have the Roman/Bishopric form of Christianity? Did they experience feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation? I would argue that infusion of European ideas did not begin until the Age of Enlightenment.
I would argue that you are confusing culture with technological advancement. The two are not one and the same. The era in question is generally considered something of a golden age of bardic creativity, when many great Irish legends and myths were organized, and recorded by the monks.
Yes, I quite agree. My main point stands that at that time Ireland was not part of classical ?Western Civilization.?If Ireland had not been colonised by the English starting in the 11th century, which included extensive colonization of English and Scottish settlers. Ireland's entry into western civilisation would have occured a lot later..
circa 1100 Crisis
In a (Sept. 4 1998) post to the paleo Civil War thread, Steve Ryan commented that the circa 1100 Crisis was confused with no clear losers. Yet apparently it was followed by a timely, circa 1150s Awakening . It would seem that the Irish saeculum experienced an anomalous Crisis-yet unlike the Potato Famine, it would seem that the turnings were not truncated or flipped.
circa 1100 Crisis
This was a civil war of the type which decides who will rule. Faction versus faction for the High Kingship (Ard Ri). It seems that the High Kingship was lost by the O'Briens, descendants of Brian Boru, who was the hero who beat the Vikings during the previous Crisis. Steve Ryan suggested to me that a lot of the passion may have been lost in the pestilence of 1095, which eliminated 25% of the population.
Today of course is the Twelfth of July, and that means Protestant parades throughout Northern Ireland, commemorating the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 (actually contested on July 1 but celebrated today because Britain did not convert to the Gregorian calendar until 1752), where the forces of the Protestant William of Orange defeated those of James II of England, who was Catholic (the battle, incidentally, took place near Drogheda in what is now the Irish Republic - where I trust they will not be celebrating today).
Two observations are in order here: First, the Protestants are observing the wrong day (and not due to the calendar change), for William's final victory over James did not occur until more than a year later, at Limerick on August 23 (now September 3), 1691; and second, what's the big deal here? (Every year Catholics protest the marches, and serious riots often break out). Do they get mad in England when we observe July the 4th? And do the rich in France get into a snit on Bastille Day? Hey, our white Southerners don't even go into mourning on Juneteenth!
It's just a celebration of cultural pride, so everybody just chill out - maybe have an orange beer or something.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.
Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!
Today of course is the Twelfth of July, and that means Protestant parades throughout Northern Ireland, commemorating the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 (actually contested on July 1 but celebrated today because Britain did not convert to the Gregorian calendar until 1752), where the forces of the Protestant William of Orange defeated those of James II of England, who was Catholic (the battle, incidentally, took place near Drogheda in what is now the Irish Republic - where I trust they will not be celebrating today).
Two observations are in order here: First, the Protestants are observing the wrong day (and not due to the calendar change), for William's final victory over James did not occur until more than a year later, at Limerick on August 23 (now September 3), 1691; and second, what's the big deal here? (Every year Catholics protest the marches, and serious riots often break out). Do they get mad in England when we observe July the 4th? And do the rich in France get into a snit on Bastille Day? Hey, our white Southerners don't even go into mourning on Juneteenth!
It's just a celebration of cultural pride, so everybody just chill out - maybe have an orange beer or something.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.
Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!
