I think this is worth reviewing. See my 7/14/2001 post-one distinct change was reorganization of Ireland into 24 sees.Originally Posted by Tim Walker '56
An example of a muddled Crisis.
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I think this is worth reviewing. See my 7/14/2001 post-one distinct change was reorganization of Ireland into 24 sees.
An example of a muddled Crisis.
Last edited by TimWalker; 01-24-2015 at 03:23 PM.
Yet by 2014, the Republic of Ireland experienced a GDP growth rate of 4.7%, and led one of the strongest recoveries from the housing crash. The population has been united in resisting austerity and any political attempts at moving away from (progressive) taxes to (regressive) fees. If anything, the Irish Tiger, short crash, and brisk recovery is reminiscent of the economic turbulance and recession of 1960 to 1961 that briefly helped our 1T transition toward a 2T.
Instead of fixating on economic crises, the Irish population seems to remain optimistic about the financial future, and they're increasingly shifting their attentions to spiritual and artistic matters. For context, Ireland's 1940s-1950s awakening codified the role of the Catholic Church in public schools. Things like divorce and birth control weren't even legal until the later part of the 1970s-1980s crisis forced a need for secularization. In 2015, there's a referendum coming up on gay marriage and it looks like it going to pass with ease. They're not pursuing it as a secularization that is being forced, they're pursuing it as part of a new, more secular and more inclusive spiritual identity. The popularity of the church is at a low point, but people are seeking spiritual meaning anyway... a new spiritual meaning.
Last edited by JohnMc82; 01-24-2015 at 03:49 PM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
So Ireland is in 2T. One with new spiritual currents.
It's going to be interesting what 2T Ireland is going to look like. Looks like the RCC's cultural hegemony is about to go bye-bye.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
If it does, or is even sufficiently weakened, a reunification with Northern Ireland may become possible.
It really has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with cultural affinity.
"Protestants" in Northern Ireland are almost exclusively members of the Church of England, and they consider themselves to be British first. To this large (now minority) in Northern Ireland, they're already "unified" with the homeland: the United Kingdom.
Officially, for several hundred years, Catholicism was illegal in Ireland. So to today identify ones-self with Irish Catholicism is more a statement of historical civil disobedience than one of particular fondness for the papacy. In fact, being so far removed from the papal state, the Irish Catholic church was, for many centuries, more like... organized crime mixed in with an independence movement. If you called yourself Catholic, you were basically saying you had no loyalty to the British King. In the last saeculum, Ireland was actually able to interact with the Catholic Church directly and overtly. It hasn't gone well, and the whole "Catholic" thing probably doesn't seem as cool now that it isn't forbidden.
Also, at this point, Northern Ireland is kind of a clusterfuck. Institutionalized racism and economic favoritism has left the majority population impoverished and under-educated. Neither the Republic nor the UK particularly wants to take responsibility for fixing it. I mean, it's not quite East Germany or North Korea, but it is the poorest part of the UK or Ireland - by far.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
Also, most Northern Ireland Protestants are "Scots-Irish" not actual ethnic Irish, they are the descendants of Calvinist Scots settled in Ulster to help control the island.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
It might be an interesting dynamic if Northern Ireland and Scotland were to merge. In Scotland, I noticed that although there is still the animosity between Catholics and Protestants, and Orange Marchers have been known to invite and incite violence, somehow it burns at a lower level. Heck, the same is true even in parts of England itself that have a substantial Catholic population (e.g. Liverpool-Merseyside, etc).
If Ireland is in 2T now, how might that affect this 4T? Consider the Internet. I can imagine Millenial Prophets interacting with Millenial Civics.
There seems to be a latent appreciation for Irish culture generally in America (obviously), but my guess as to what this might mean is if the Irish prophets truly start having an artistic golden age over there, that might in turn inspire American culture via the Internet.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Liverpool certainly has a past when it comes to sectarianism. Heck, we actually once elected an Irish Nationalist MP to Parliament, voting used to split along sectarian lines, and certainly the huge Irish influx in the late 19th century is the main factor that makes Liverpool such a distinct part of England.
However my impression from my knowledge of the city's history and from talking to family is that the old sectarian wounds began healing in about the 1950s. It may have been accelerated by the inter-War & post-War slum clearances that saw huge new council estates springing up on the outskirts of the city, with Catholics & Protestants housed side by side, and their cultures and identities kind of merging. Our equivalent of the GI Generation are probably the last generation for whom it was relevant. If you look at voting patterns from the 1950s onwards you can see the Protestant Tory vote slowly fading away, and the footballing divide is nothing like a city like Glasgow. The Everton/Liverpool rivalry for example was always a purely footballing rivalry, with nothing sectarian about it, and many households having split allegiances.
As for Ireland, I'm extremely dubious about this idea that Ireland is somehow on a completely different schedule to everywhere else. When they became independent we saw the birth of a new nation state, but not of a new nation. A strong Irish identity & sense of nationhood had always existed, and simply formalising it wouldn't have plunged them into a new saeculum. For example if Scotland had voted for independence in September it would certainly not have been the start of a 1T for them, but rather a trigger for a very messy 4T for both Scotland & Rump UK.
Oh I'm not saying their revolution caused their saeculum to somehow reset. I'm just saying that the "strong Irish identity and sense of nationhood" means that the UK was never fully able to export their own saeculum or force Ireland to "synch" up with the British society.
Primarily, Ireland exhibits absolutely no signs of a 4T during the 1929-1945 period. While the rest of Europe is watching crops fail, economies collapse, and total war break out, Ireland stays neutral and experiences rapid economic growth in a stable social environment. There's very little internal or external conflict - just peace & prosperity. Sounds pretty 1T to me.
Ireland also notably diverges from the Anglosphere in the 1970s and 1980s. Nothing like The Troubles was happening at that time in other English-speaking places. Nothing close. Every time the UK made a half-assed 3T response, the IRA would respond with 4T tactics. Then, the Irish economy of the 1980s hit their modern rock bottom in such a way as to make the current housing/banking panic seem like a minor blip with a quick recovery. This time, the Anglo bankers are preaching doom & gloom in true 4T style, but the Irish population is kind of... brushing it off in a united 1T front.
So you can go back to other points in Irish and UK history to see major 4T style uprisings and economic collapses in Ireland at times when UK's response was very 3T. When the UK does "get serious" about their Irish problems in the 4T, Ireland has already moved on to the stubborn stability and solidarity of the 1T. That secular mismatch actually goes a long way to explaining how such a small country managed to cause so many problems for a much, much larger hegemon.
Mostly though, I know a crap-ton of people who were born & raised in Ireland, and they just don't fit with the generational archetypes I'm used to as an American. It's as if 60-somethings act like nomads and the 40-somethings seem more like civics.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
Ireland is probably the purest expression of the ancient line of Celtic civilization. The other instances like the Welsh, the Scots, the Cornish and the Brettons have all been a lot more intermingled with other civilizations. So, Ireland's turnings are rolling along as they have been for the past 5K years.
I'd argue the opposite, in fact. It turns out the Irish genetics patterns show a history of migration and settlement driven by Celtic, Basque, and Norse populations. The Irish version of the gaelic language is highly varied from other Celtic civilizations, and the difference seems to be largely from Basque roots.
So by the time the English showed up, the Irish weren't too concerned because dozens of other cultural groups had already settled in to the island and incorporated their own traditions/mythology/language in to the existing traditions/mythology/language. Unfortunately though, the English were more interested in building cultural hierarchies than they were in a contributing to a new synthesis culture.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
So that would mean Ireland is currently in a 1T? That's very interesting because that means the teenagers and kids there may be prophets.
Things just got real interesting in Ireland: It has just become the first country in the world to approve same-sex marriage by popular referendum - yet remains the only non-former Iron Curtain European country to more or less totally ban abortion (save for a very narrowly-defined "life of the mother" exception). Ireland's vote also leaves Italy as the lone remaining non-former Iron Curtain country in Europe to not even recognize civil unions, much less same-sex marriages.
And I will make a prediction for American politics based on this - providing the SCOTUS, as expected, gives the green light to same-sex marriages throughout America (and I actually believe it will do so 6-3 - with John Roberts as well as Anthony Kennedy "crossing the aisle"): The fundies will try to drive a wedge between the gays and the radical feminists, by pointing out that if abortion is outlawed, or at least seriously crimped, there will be more babies available for same-sex couples to adopt!
Yes, they're that devious - and that desperate.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.
Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!
