To Neil Howe:

I can't overstate how shocked I am that you're shutting down this
forum, and throwing hundreds of your most vocal and loyal supporters
out into the street.

You say you're going to be writing more books, and you obviously
expect to continue receiving the loyal support of these people. Are
you kidding? When it sinks in what you've done to them, they're going
to be furious at you, and will not be your supporters.

This forum may have been about you when it first started, but that's
no longer true. Today, this forum is about the members, and the
people who have loyally supported you. You have an enormous moral
obligation to honor them.

I gather that you want to be done with this forum, and I can
understand that, having managed and administered half a dozen forums
over the years. However, you have other choices besides simply
throwing all your supporters into the garbage.

I personally can offer you two choices.

First, I can simply take over as administrator on the existing web
site. It won't cost you anything, and the forum can continue exactly
as before.

Second, I can move this forum to another web site, so that you can be
completely done with it. Let me dwell on the second choice.

What I would do is purchase another domain, say, "newforum.com", and I
would move the entire forum, as is, to that new domain. The address
would be "newforum.com/forum" instead of "fourthturning.com/forum". I
know exactly how to do this, since I've done it several times in the
past.

However, for this option, I would need your cooperation in four areas:

1 - I would need administrative access to the existing forum so that I
can take screen shots of the administrative pages and make a backup of
the database.

2 - I would briefly need administrative access to the web site so that
I can take a backup of the entire "/forum" directory and
subdirectories. This is important, because all the graphics and
attachments that everyone has uploaded are in that directory.

3 - I would need you to transfer your vBulletin license to me, so that
I won't have to buy a new one for $200.

4 - I would need to insert an ".htaccess" file into the "/forum"
directory of your web server. This would be important, because it
would mean that if someone clicks on a link of the form
"fourthturning.com/forum/whatever", Apache would automatically
redirect it to "newforum.com/forum/whatever", so that all the old
links would continue to work correctly.

I would then install vBulletin on the new web site, set up the options
according to the screen shots that I've taken from the old forum, and
restore the database, and all the graphics files and attachments.

The result is that the new forum would be indistinguishable from the
old one, except that it will be at a different URL.

These are the two choices that I'm offering. I hope that you'll think
about this and realize that this is in your own best interest, in
order to maintain the loyalty of the hundreds of people who have
supported you over the years.

One final point is that these steps will take several days to
complete, so unless the May 16 date can be extended, a decision has to
be made pretty quickly.

Sincerely,

John

Originally Posted by radind

Although I frequently disagree with pbrower2, his posts contribute to the civil dialogue.

PB is upset/offended easily. It isn't what he says or contributes to civil dialogue, it's what he does and how he responds to whatever it is that upsets/offends him behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

To Neil Howe:

I can't overstate how shocked I am that you're shutting down this
forum, and throwing hundreds of your most vocal and loyal supporters
out into the street.

You say you're going to be writing more books, and you obviously
expect to continue receiving the loyal support of these people. Are
you kidding? When it sinks in what you've done to them, they're going
to be furious at you, and will not be your supporters.

This forum may have been about you when it first started, but that's
no longer true. Today, this forum is about the members, and the
people who have loyally supported you. You have an enormous moral
obligation to honor them.

I gather that you want to be done with this forum, and I can
understand that, having managed and administered half a dozen forums
over the years. However, you have other choices besides simply
throwing all your supporters into the garbage.

I personally can offer you two choices.

First, I can simply take over as administrator on the existing web
site. It won't cost you anything, and the forum can continue exactly
as before.

Second, I can move this forum to another web site, so that you can be
completely done with it. Let me dwell on the second choice.

What I would do is purchase another domain, say, "newforum.com", and I
would move the entire forum, as is, to that new domain. The address
would be "newforum.com/forum" instead of "fourthturning.com/forum". I
know exactly how to do this, since I've done it several times in the
past.

However, for this option, I would need your cooperation in four areas:

1 - I would need administrative access to the existing forum so that I
can take screen shots of the administrative pages and make a backup of
the database.

2 - I would briefly need administrative access to the web site so that
I can take a backup of the entire "/forum" directory and
subdirectories. This is important, because all the graphics and
attachments that everyone has uploaded are in that directory.

3 - I would need you to transfer your vBulletin license to me, so that
I won't have to buy a new one for $200.

4 - I would need to insert an ".htaccess" file into the "/forum"
directory of your web server. This would be important, because it
would mean that if someone clicks on a link of the form
"fourthturning.com/forum/whatever", Apache would automatically
redirect it to "newforum.com/forum/whatever", so that all the old
links would continue to work correctly.

I would then install vBulletin on the new web site, set up the options
according to the screen shots that I've taken from the old forum, and
restore the database, and all the graphics files and attachments.

The result is that the new forum would be indistinguishable from the
old one, except that it will be at a different URL.

These are the two choices that I'm offering. I hope that you'll think
about this and realize that this is in your own best interest, in
order to maintain the loyalty of the hundreds of people who have
supported you over the years.

One final point is that these steps will take several days to
complete, so unless the May 16 date can be extended, a decision has to
be made pretty quickly.

Sincerely,

John

This would be the cleanest way to migrate the forum.

Failing that, if he would simply make it read-only for a period of time, something more primitive (but still preserving most content of threads) could be done.

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

To Neil Howe:

I can't overstate how shocked I am that you're shutting down this
forum, and throwing hundreds of your most vocal and loyal supporters
out into the street.
(snip)

Sincerely,

John

Great idea. Have you contacted Neil Howe at this website? http://www.saeculumresearch.com/contact

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

> This would be the cleanest way to migrate the forum.

> Failing that, if he would simply make it read-only for a period of
> time, something more primitive (but still preserving most content
> of threads) could be done.

If all else fails, then I'd been willing to add a FourthTurning
section to the Generational Dynamics forum.

Then I could write a script that would transfer at least some of the
content from here to the new place, though that would take a little
work.

But that's clearly a less than satisfactory solution.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

> Great idea. Have you contacted Neil Howe at this website?
> http://www.saeculumresearch.com/contact

OK, I've sent an e-mail message to Neil Howe at the e-mail
address on the page you referenced. Let's see what happens.

John

Originally Posted by Dan '82

I've created a fourth turning forum on Yuku available here:

http://fourthturning.yuku.com/

I haven’t set up any sub forums yet, but I’ll work on getting the new forum up to snuff in the next two weeks. If anyone has any suggestion for new sub forums let me know.


I wish this forum would simply be turned off without all the old threads being deleted.

Awesome! Thanks, Dan!

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

To Neil Howe:

I can't overstate how shocked I am that you're shutting down this
forum, and throwing hundreds of your most vocal and loyal supporters
out into the street.

You say you're going to be writing more books, and you obviously
expect to continue receiving the loyal support of these people. Are
you kidding? When it sinks in what you've done to them, they're going
to be furious at you, and will not be your supporters.

This forum may have been about you when it first started, but that's
no longer true. Today, this forum is about the members, and the
people who have loyally supported you. You have an enormous moral
obligation to honor them.

I gather that you want to be done with this forum, and I can
understand that, having managed and administered half a dozen forums
over the years. However, you have other choices besides simply
throwing all your supporters into the garbage.

I personally can offer you two choices.

First, I can simply take over as administrator on the existing web
site. It won't cost you anything, and the forum can continue exactly
as before.

Second, I can move this forum to another web site, so that you can be
completely done with it. Let me dwell on the second choice.

What I would do is purchase another domain, say, "newforum.com", and I
would move the entire forum, as is, to that new domain. The address
would be "newforum.com/forum" instead of "fourthturning.com/forum". I
know exactly how to do this, since I've done it several times in the
past.

However, for this option, I would need your cooperation in four areas:

1 - I would need administrative access to the existing forum so that I
can take screen shots of the administrative pages and make a backup of
the database.

2 - I would briefly need administrative access to the web site so that
I can take a backup of the entire "/forum" directory and
subdirectories. This is important, because all the graphics and
attachments that everyone has uploaded are in that directory.

3 - I would need you to transfer your vBulletin license to me, so that
I won't have to buy a new one for $200.

4 - I would need to insert an ".htaccess" file into the "/forum"
directory of your web server. This would be important, because it
would mean that if someone clicks on a link of the form
"fourthturning.com/forum/whatever", Apache would automatically
redirect it to "newforum.com/forum/whatever", so that all the old
links would continue to work correctly.

I would then install vBulletin on the new web site, set up the options
according to the screen shots that I've taken from the old forum, and
restore the database, and all the graphics files and attachments.

The result is that the new forum would be indistinguishable from the
old one, except that it will be at a different URL.

These are the two choices that I'm offering. I hope that you'll think
about this and realize that this is in your own best interest, in
order to maintain the loyalty of the hundreds of people who have
supported you over the years.

One final point is that these steps will take several days to
complete, so unless the May 16 date can be extended, a decision has to
be made pretty quickly.

Sincerely,

John

I hope that Neil Howe accepts your offer. This is the best solution that I have seen.

Originally Posted by radind

I hope that Neil Howe accepts your offer. This is the best solution that I have seen.

He surely won't now after he has tried to shame Neil into handing the forum over to him. Sincerest apologies to Neil for his behaviour. But please reconsider shutting it down.

Let's be honest, is this really even Neil or his publicist?

Dear publicist, tell Neil to consider John's offer.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

> He surely won't now after he has tried to shame Neil into handing
> the forum over to him. Sincerest apologies to Neil for his
> behaviour. But please reconsider shutting it down.

You've only been a member here for a few months, so you don't
understand what's at stake.

Just to be clear, I will gain absolutely nothing from administering
this forum except a lot of grief. I volunteered to take this on for
the same kinds of idealistic reasons that I take a lot of things on,
including the entire Generational Dynamics endeavor -- which also
brings me little except grief. This forum has an enormous amount of
history, and to shut it down on two weeks notice, throwing away all
that history and throwing all the users on the street, is a crime.
You can call that shaming if you want, but I call it common sense.
And I'm genuinely shocked that after 20 years Neil is even considering
it.

If Neil has a different solution, or if all of you want to go with
Dan'82's solution, then do so with my total, complete, absolute
blessing. I've already copied all the content that I need, and not
having this additional burden will be nothing but a relief.

I'd be all for John taking it over, or migrating over to his site.

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

You've only been a member here for a few months, so you don't
understand what's at stake.

Just to be clear, I will gain absolutely nothing from administering
this forum except a lot of grief. I volunteered to take this on for
the same kinds of idealistic reasons that I take a lot of things on,
including the entire Generational Dynamics endeavor -- which also
brings me little except grief. This forum has an enormous amount of
history, and to shut it down on two weeks notice, throwing away all
that history and throwing all the users on the street, is a crime.
You can call that shaming if you want, but I call it common sense.
And I'm genuinely shocked that after 20 years Neil is even considering
it.

If Neil has a different solution, or if all of you want to go with
Dan'82's solution, then do so with my total, complete, absolute
blessing. I've already copied all the content that I need, and not
having this additional burden will be nothing but a relief.

A hell of a lot of people think you are being insanely rude for your comment and practically putting a gun to his head and shaming him. These people have been on there for YEARS. Way more than I have so this has nothing to do with me only being here a few months. If you want to have Neil consider your offer, shaming him is NOT the way to go about it!

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

You've only been a member here for a few months, so you don't
understand what's at stake.

Just to be clear, I will gain absolutely nothing from administering
this forum except a lot of grief. I volunteered to take this on for
the same kinds of idealistic reasons that I take a lot of things on,
including the entire Generational Dynamics endeavor -- which also
brings me little except grief. This forum has an enormous amount of
history, and to shut it down on two weeks notice, throwing away all
that history and throwing all the users on the street, is a crime.
You can call that shaming if you want, but I call it common sense.
And I'm genuinely shocked that after 20 years Neil is even considering
it.

If Neil has a different solution, or if all of you want to go with
Dan'82's solution, then do so with my total, complete, absolute
blessing. I've already copied all the content that I need, and not
having this additional burden will be nothing but a relief.

I like your proposed solution better. It would be a loss to just toss everything out.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

> A hell of a lot of people think you are being insanely rude for
> your comment and practically putting a gun to his head and shaming
> him. These people have been on there for YEARS. Way more than I
> have so this has nothing to do with me only being here a few
> months. If you want to have Neil consider your offer, shaming him
> is NOT the way to go about it!

Fine. Then let him go with a different solution, with my blessing.

For example


<throwing hundreds of your most vocal and loyal supporters
***out into the street***.>

<you obviously expect to continue receiving the loyal support of these people. ***Are you kidding***? When it sinks in what you've done to them, they're going to be furious at you, and will not be your supporters.>

<This forum ***may have been about you*** when it first started>

<***You have an enormous moral obligation*** to honor them.>

<you have other choices besides simply ***throwing all your supporters into the garbage***.>

<I personally can offer you two choices.>

<These are the two choices that I'm offering. I hope that you'll think
about this and ***realize that this is in your own best interest***>

If you want him to take your offer seriously, THINK before you speak!

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

Fine. Then let him go with a different solution, with my blessing.

I hope he goes with you offers but if not he may have been offended with your message before your offers and will just ignore you for it and still shut the place down. I do not think Neil is someone who tolerates having a verbal gun pointed at his head. You may have actually sealed this forums fate.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

> I hope he goes with you offers but if not he may have been
> offended with your message before your offers and will just ignore
> you for it and still shut the place down. I do not think Neil is
> someone who tolerates having a verbal gun pointed at his head. You
> may have actually sealed this forums fate.

Neil has been online for a long time, and I doubt that he offends so
easily. I believe that he, like many Boomers, prefers honesty and
directness to beating around the bush and pandering.

I also have a great deal of respect for Neil's intelligence, as I've
mentioned on many occasions with respect to the brilliance of his
foundational work with Strauss. And with so much at stake, I don't
believe that he'll allow the forum to die just because I hurt his
feelings.

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

Neil has been online for a long time, and I doubt that he offends so
easily. I believe that he, like many Boomers, prefers honesty and
directness to beating around the bush and pandering.

I also have a great deal of respect for Neil's intelligence, as I've
mentioned on many occasions with respect to the brilliance of his
foundational work with Strauss. And with so much at stake, I don't
believe that he'll allow the forum to die just because I hurt his
feelings.

Well myself and others i chat to hope you are right about that. We are all very concerned by your post to him. I guess we will see in a couple of weeks time.

I will really hate to see this place go. Strangely enough I will even miss you Eric. You add a certain jenais se quois to my world. Strangely, I've never decided if it was all good or all bad, but it's...different.

Originally Posted by Danilynn

I will really hate to see this place go. Strangely enough I will even miss you Eric. You add a certain jenais se quois to my world. Strangely, I've never decided if it was all good or all bad, but it's...different.

I feel the same about Eric. He is the oddball and gives the forum variety which makes it all the more interesting. Would not be the same without him.

Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

Neil has been online for a long time, and I doubt that he offends so
easily. I believe that he, like many Boomers, prefers honesty and
directness to beating around the bush and pandering.

I also have a great deal of respect for Neil's intelligence, as I've
mentioned on many occasions with respect to the brilliance of his
foundational work with Strauss. And with so much at stake, I don't
believe that he'll allow the forum to die just because I hurt his
feelings.

Howe had already killed this forum. The issue now is how to save or restart the forum.

I’ve added a bunch of forums my new board, mostly they’re the same topics as here I’ll be adding some more as time goes on. If John is able to migrate this board to his site that would be better, I wanted start the new board ASAP so that as many people as possible would know about it.

Originally Posted by radind

Howe had already killed this forum. The issue now is how to save or restart the forum.

I suspect he is trying to organize the web presence to the various companies he owns, within the past month he’s shut down two of his three twitter feeds and it looks like he is now actually using the remaining one himself. He’s also 65 years old and might be preparing for retirement, or at least shutting down his consulting firms.

Very sad news. This is my favorite forum.