This is a long overdue topic on this board. Basically, this topic is for the discussion of anything related to games, turnings, and generations. The video game industry is more profitable than the film industry. Unlike the music and television industries, which have been falling sharply in the past few years, the computer and video game industry has continued its rapid growth to today.

The video game industry began late in the prior Awakening, with primarily last wave Boomers and Xers as the consumers. After becoming momentarily popular during the late 1970s and early 1980s, the video game industry collapsed under the weight of an overabundance (many people say 85%) of horrible games that no one was buying.

Nintendo can be credited for single-handedly reviving the American gaming industry with the release of the NES in 1985. My first gaming system, which I got around the time I was 5 (1987), was the Atari 2600. It rapidly progressed through the Atari 7800. At the time, I was a huge skeptic of Nintendo. But after playing Super Mario Bros. over my neighbor's house, I had to have one for myself. This was in about 1988 or 1989.

In 1991, my parents bought me the SNES. Two years later, they bought me a Sega Genesis. I have to say that I definitely liked the SNES better, although most of my friends prefered the Genesis. The period from the late 1980s to the mid 1990s marks the Golden Age of console gaming, IMO. The war between Sega and Nintendo was very exciting. The games of this period were also exceptional in quality. To me, the vast majority of classics game during this period. This was the time 2D gaming reached its peak.

After about 1995, the game industry changed as 3D systems entered the market. Compared to the prior era, the period from about 1996 to 2001 have been years of slight disappointment. Most 3D sequels of 2D games were not as good. But as developers learned how to take advantage of 3D engines, the quality has steadily increased. In fact, I'm predicting that the period after 2005 will mark a second golden era in gaming, mainly because of the maturation of internet technologies and of 3D techniques.

More later.

Ah, a topic that more or less relates to one of my favorite activities.

Although I am not the most hardcore of gamers, I do tend to take an affinity for console RPGs and PC sim and tactical games.

My first gaming experience came from the SNES back in 1992, but our family was slow to pick up on the games, so we either waited for some on sale or bought them in hindsight. Although, my sister and I did miss out on the initial experience of the great Square games (thank goodness for ROMS).

The PC provided entertainment that surpassed the 16-bit console during the late 90s. We never experienced the 32/64-bit era. Although I do recall in winter of 1997 seeing a preview of Final Fantasy VII on a Babbages window. Also there was a demo set up of the ill-fated 3DO console. Man, to go back to when the hardware was getting revolutionary. To think that I was ignorant of what happened.

But come 2001, we got a PS2, although our timing was a bit off since only three months later did they decide to slash the price a third . . . damn, but my sis and I made up for it by being patient for game prices to drop.

That and my recent foray into Sim City 4 . . . well, that's my basic story on my adventures in gaming as of yet.

And I do look forward to what will come in the future too!

Originally Posted by Andy '85

My first gaming experience came from the SNES back in 1992, but our family was slow to pick up on the games, so we either waited for some on sale or bought them in hindsight. Although, my sister and I did miss out on the initial experience of the great Square games (thank goodness for ROMS).

I didn't get into Square games until 1994, and quite by accident. I was at a pawn shop in Alton (an Illinois suburb of St. Louis), and my father told me he would buy me one game. All of the games there looked very crappy. I saw the FFII cart there, and remembering having read something about it in the magazine, I got that one. Trying the game out, I hated it at first (I didn't have an instruction manual for this game). But once I delivered the package to the village of the Mist, and thus destroying it, I had gotten the hang of the game, and became completely enraptured in its storyline as I became ever anxious about what would happen next. Since then, I've became a semi-cult fan of Squaresoft. I've beaten FF4, FF5, and FF6. I love the job system of FF5. As for FF6, there has been no better game villain, IMO. I also just love Chrono Trigger, Seiken Densetsu 3, and now, the original Star Ocean. There are so many SNES and Genesis RPGs that I still haven't played through.

The PC provided entertainment that surpassed the 16-bit console during the late 90s. We never experienced the 32/64-bit era. Although I do recall in winter of 1997 seeing a preview of Final Fantasy VII on a Babbages window. Also there was a demo set up of the ill-fated 3DO console. Man, to go back to when the hardware was getting revolutionary. To think that I was ignorant of what happened.

I've only become a PC gamer recently. I agree that PC games during the late 1990s were very good, although I disagree that they surpassed the 16-bit era. I would have to say that Quake was the main online gaming event during this era for me. We would have deathmatch tournaments over the school network during my high school years. I haven't yet played any online RPGs simply because the monthly rate is a little beyond my means right now. I really liked Final Fantasy VII, but not being able to skip through the cinematics of the spells really takes away from enjoyment of the game. I absolutely hated the Knights of the Round spell.

But come 2001, we got a PS2, although our timing was a bit off since only three months later did they decide to slash the price a third . . . damn, but my sis and I made up for it by being patient for game prices to drop.

Check out Xenosaga.

From the mailing list. Standard disclaimers apply.

Trendy new club thing: Video game stations

Video games appeal to much more than kids. A recent survey finds that gamers? average ages are 29, and 41 percent of gamers are female. The $11 billion video-game industry has set its sights on gamers in their 20s and 30s rather than kids and teens. And now some of New York?s trendiest hotspots feature video-game consoles for their adult clientele. At the West Village club Play, hipsters lay down their drinks and pick up PlayStation controllers to enjoy their favorite games, which they view on plasma screens. Play suggests its patrons reserve spots in advance in the PlayStation seating area. Nightspot Social Club in Chelsea features a similar area where people can congregate around a pair of PlayStations hooked up to giant 50-foot plasma screens. The highly social aspect of the healthy competition attracts flirty singles looking for something new.

Originally Posted by Wyn76

NES----------------------
Final Fantasy 1

SNES---------------------
Final Fantasy 3 (6)
Final Fantasy 2 (4)

CronoTrigger
--------
Parasite Eve 1
Parasite Eve 2
Final Fantasy 7
Front Mission 3
PS2--------------------
FFX2

It's nice to discover another RPG fan. Right now, I'm trying to get through Xenosaga. I wonder, do you think that RPGs should appeal more to Millies or Xers? For the RPGs I played, they seem more like they should appeal to Millies, simply because of its epic nature.

The release of the Nintendo DS is imminent. Right now, the demand far outstrips the expected supply for the holiday season, meaning that there is likely to be a shortage of units.

Of the gaming companies, Nintendo has remained the company which consistently targets Millennials. About all of Nintendo's (inhouse) games are made to tailor to Millies. This was started with the release of the NES. In the early 1990s, Nintendo caused an uproar when it refused to include blood in the SNES version of Mortal Kombat. In later MK games, Nintendo was forced to change their minds, as hardly anyone bought the SNES version.

With the DS, Nintendo continues to target Millies. Their new television ads, with the slogan, "touching is good", is supposed to target teens and young adults. The system runs about 7 hours on battery. It has support for both bluetooth and Wi-Fi. If any other DS is within about 100 feet, then you can challenge him/her wirelessly. This Wi-Fi support will also extend to internet play. This will seem to make this system a must have for the holiday season.

Originally Posted by Wyn76

Generational Gaming
Wow, someone I can talk to about Gaming in a generational light! :-)
I tried to on a Final Fantasy tribe on Tribe.net but no one had a clue on what I was talking about.

- Currently the gaming industry has games targeted to different age groups. What I like about RPG's is that the story and characters usually deal with themes identifiable with different kinds of people. It's interesting to note how Squaresoft has played with the stereotypes of both Xrs and Milli's throughout most of the Final Fantasy series. Here is a list of FF's and how they seem to portray the 2 generations.
-
FF1 1987 - Not really applied
FF2 2003 Update - Millies resisting the growth of an evil empire with Xr
leadership and guidance.
FF3 Not Played

I haven't played the NES Final Fantasies yet. I should start, though.

FF4 2001 Update - Dark Xrs who find their inner hero after being guided
by their elders. Millennials represented by 2 wizard kids who sacrafice
themselves to save the adults.

To me, this has one of the best storylines ever. I would definitely agree with you. Tellah makes a perfect Prophet. Cecil and Kain make perfect Nomads. In the Japanese Hard Type version, I think that you can save Palom and Parom, but I'm not certain.

FF5 2000 Update - Nomadic wanderer\loner leading the renewed cause of
Boomer father and friends. Guided by a grey pony tailed Boomer who
was a part of this forgotten struggle.

Just as Tellah died in FF4, Galuf dies. Hmm... Galuf was, however, replaced by a Millie female.

FF6 2001 Update - Closest to the S&H's Crises era where 14 people of
different ages and backgrounds come to deal with the Crises and the
new world in the aftermath. Xrs stereotype most represented by 8
year old wild boy Gau who was abandoned because his father though
that he was a monster.

The generations are much more mixed up in this game. However, I would say that the characters do not have a dark demeanor to them. Terra seems kinda Xerish. Locke, even though a thief, seems more Millieish. Sabin is definitely a Nomad, but his brother strikes me as a Millie. Gau is definitely Xer. Shadow, Nomad all the way. Celes, Nomad. Seltzer, Nomad. Cyan strikes me as a Nomad. Strago, Prophet. Relm, Millie. Kefka...can't really categorize him. All of the Espers are Prophets.

FF7 1997 - Solid X! First game to be originally targeted towards a
particular generation. The story was about a angry group of 20\30
somethings whose life had been destroyed by an evil, greedy
corporation. This was a moody, grungy X world complete with Doc
Martins and "Rachel"haircuts. Main character turns out to be
scizofrenic after the party finds out that he really isn't a famous
warrior but is just a lowly foot soldier who went mental. He tried out
for the elite forces and failed in an atempt to prove to himself and the
village that he wasn't a complete loser and loner.

Definitely. This FF was definitely a dark one. Sephiroth strikes me as someone who could be the grunge rock star that Boomers refer to as Satanist.

FF8 1999 - Late wave Xrs . Although the main character Squall is your
typical alienated and angry Xr his classmates could be confused for
happy Millennials. However they discover that they all have
suppressed their unhappy abandoned childhoods memories.
Together they use time to break a generational curse.

I would have to agree with you that Squall is a Nomad. However, I think that the rest are cuspers.

FF9 2000 - Not really applied since this was a more light
hearted "oldskool" RPG

From what I remember, this was a mostly Millie RPG, with some older Xers (mostly villains).

FFX 2001 - Millennials who guided by wise and tough Xrs defy their
prescribed destiny and break a 1000 year old generational curse
called the calm.
FFX2 2003 - In progress: 2 of the 3 main characters are your typical
bright and cheerful Millennials. The 3rd one is an Xr goth named Paine
who is moody and toughest of the 3. She even wears a big metal X!
This game is a continuation of FFX. To be honest I didn't know if should
buy this game but everyone I talked to recommended it.

I've played some of both games, and Millies do dominate. As for FFX-2, Yuna's "singer" class is my favorite, so far. :wink:

I think that Chrono Trigger deserves mention.

Chrono, Marle, Lucca, Ayla, Queen Leene, Frog, and King Guardia (600 AD) are all Heroes. , Magus, Slash, and Flea are Nomads. Magus' nomadic nature is especially evident during his childhood (as Janus). Scala seems to me to be the one Artist in the game, and is the mother of Magus. Queen Zeal, the mother of Janus, strikes me as an evil elder Hero. Melchior, Gasper, Belthasar, King Guardia (1000 AD), and Azala are all Prophets.

1000 AD: I would say that this is a society still in 3T. The world is relatively at peace, but there are strong species divisions between the Humans and the Mystics, who I think are made to resemble the Muslims. There is a cult of Mystics who worship Magus, who promises to rid the world of human beings. There are no overt hostilities, so this strikes me as more of 3T-esque ethnic chauvenism (sp?). Marle, and Lucca are definitely cheerful types. However, Marle is at odds with her Prophet father. She escapes the castle, joins Chrono. Upon returning, Chrono is arrested, tried, and sentenced to death by a Nomad Chancellor (who turns out to be a monster). Marle and the king make up at the end, though. As for Lucca, she strikes me as a scientific and rational young Hero, always working with her scientist prophet father.

600 AD: This is a world deep in Crisis. There is a major, world war going on between the Mystics and the Humans. The humans are fighting for survival against the Mystic invasion. The Queen of Guardia looks too much like Marle, so she has to be a young Hero. Thus, the King is also a young Hero. The Humans are battling against the forces of Magus, who is a Nomad. The Humans are converging during an era of peril, and are waiting for "The Hero" to come and save the world. As it turned out, Frog was the real "The Hero." Even transportation is curtailed during this era. All across the world, people are preoccupied with the war.

2300 AD: I'm really not sure about this. I don't think that the situation fits any turning, since the world is so desolate and there is no hope. The Lavos spawns are slowly taking over a barren world that looks to be sliding towards an ice age, with the remains of a highly technological civilization.

1999 AD: You only get a glimpse of this world during one of the endings. This world seems to be in a High. The technology looks much more advanced than today, and cities are encased in domes (I'm not sure why, though). Robots inhabit much of the world. Before defeating Lavos, this is the world that Lavos destroys, leading to the world in 2300 AD.

65,000,000 BC: This is another world in Crisis. Ayla and Kino are young Heroes. The Humans are fighting the Reptites, who are currently ruling the world with technology and magic. Azala, the emperor of the Reptite empire is a Prophet and believes that this moment in time will decide the fate of the world. He wants to finish off the humans. He realizes that fate hangs in the balance. Not only because of the war, but because a meteor is headed for Earth, which becomes the Lavo seed. After Azala is defeated, he tells the humans of a prophecy that the meteor will be the destruction of the human, and then dies. The meteor then strikes soon after, and the world drifts towards an ice age.

12,000 BC: The world is deep in an ice age. On the world itself, blizzards are the prevailing state of weather. However, there is a continent that floats high in the sky. This continent is green and sunny. This is a world in an Awakening. There is a highly advanced, magical civilization with very advanced technology, powered by magic from Lavos. The humans who inhabit this civilization are magic users, and refer to themselves as the enlightened ones. This is a world is knowledge. Queen Zeal is an even elder Hero who is in the business of building vast new constructions, and obtaining more and more power. She masterminds the construction of a giant undersea palace to extract more energy from Lavos. She is very power hungry. Eventually, this palace rises out of the sea and becomes the black omen, which is essentially timeless itself. Her daughter is Scala, who is definitely an Artist. She is very guilt stricken at the evil ways of her mother. She is soft spoken, concialatory, very much like the Awakening Era Silent. She tries to stop the power hunger of her mother, knowing that it will cause destruction. Janus is Magus as a child. He is definitely a loner, and is filled with angst. He doesn't even like his mother that much. When he is an adult in another age, he is actually a good person, if you decide not to kill him. He dresses dark in adulthood, uses Dark magic, and is generally cynical and realistic.

Across time, the three gurus, Gasper, Melchior, and Balthasar, are Prophets. They help out Chrono on his quest, giving the party magic, a flying time machine, etc.

This game is perfect for generational analysis.

- As a "Nintendo Wave 13r" I have to disagree with the first part of that statement. When the NES came out in 1985 I was 8\9 and the oldest Milli was only 3. Most games for that system were the lone warrior shoot'm ups and quests. Back then there was a controversy because adults were concerned that Nintendo made us more violent. The SNES came out while I was in high school in which fighting games were king. The "green blood" issue was more of a "wink,wink,nudge,nudge because they "somehow let" out the secret code which turned the blood back to red. I thought this "green blood" was rather silly since you were allowed to see someone like Subzero rip out an opponets spine in Mortal Kombat.

When SNES came out, I was in fourth grade. For us, fighting games weren't king then. We still liked to play the Mario games. Fighting games didn't really take off among Millies until MK came out.

Then the Playstation came out. Xrs jumped over to the more adult Playstation while Nintendo went completely Millennial. Those Xrs who remained loyal would soon start writing angry letters to game mags because Nintendo went Pokemon crazy and seemed to ignore it's older consumer. Nintendo has made some more mature games since then but has a long way to go.

The n64 itself looked like a toy, while the PS looked more like a media player. I think that the four controller ports on the N64 was designed to appeal to Millies. Rare games has released a game for the N64 called Conker's Bad Fur Day. Now THAT was a shock. I haven't played it, but imagine a game designed to appeal to the South Park crowd.

So yes I do believe Nintendo has completely invested itself in the Millennial Generation. However the line between Xr and Milli will probably blur as they get older as a generation. Actually we might start seeing another wave of change as the new Silents start entering the gaming field in the next 4 or 5 years.

Games for the Homeland? What kind of games would appeal to them? I recently saw a commercial for a new game system designed for kids under 5. ALL of the games for this system are educational. Looking at these games, you would think that you were playing Nick Jr, or Barney, or something like that. yuck!! I'll play my Manhunt instead. :P

Good grief, I couldn't perceive that much analysis put on Chrono Trigger, and I haven't played that in years . . .

And as for FF4, the revival of Palom and Porom are implied in the ending sequence, I think.

Hmm . . . as for applying generational theory on other games . . . I wonder how that will pan out with the Suikoden series?

I might just want to attempt that myself, since I am in the process of replaying the third game. It could be possible since each game takes place in a different geographical region, although the time span between the three is a mere 18 years, and all three involve conflicts of an epic scale. Then there is the upcoming fourth game which takes place three centuries before the first.

I might want to lay a hand on this during the holidays.

Games for a slightly older generation: :wink:

(Posted for discussion purposes only)

How "Dungeons" Changed the World


How 'Dungeons' changed the world

By Peter Bebergal | November 15, 2004

FOR A WHILE, it seemed, I was part of a generation with no discernable qualities, no great contribution to American culture. Too young to be boomers, too old to be "Gen X," this generation was a product of the burned out excess of the seventies married to the surface glow of the eighties. But here in 2004, I realize I belong to the luckiest generation, and not only that, I am part of the luckiest sub-culture within. Maybe we didn't give the world the Beatles or John Updike, but we gave the world Dungeons and Dragons.

This year marks the 30th anniversary of the beloved, much maligned, often misunderstood role playing game developed in 1974 by Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax. Without CGI graphics, surround sound, or flat screens, they invented an immense and complex gaming system that requires only pencils, graph paper, and some oddly configured dice. Arneson and Gygax paved the way, but let's face it, my friends and I changed the world.

It started innocently enough. With a copy of "The Fellowship of the Ring" at my side and Styx on the record player, I was looking for something to help me rise above being bored, lonely, and unfulfilled. One day at school, a kid approached me. Having sensed in me an ally -- the same urgent need to avoid getting beat up that day -- he timidly asked if I wanted to play "D&D" after school.

From then on, I never had another forlorn afternoon. And to think, from that first fateful day when I decided I would be known as the half-elf wizard Vendel, I was joining a revolution. But what exactly were we transforming?

To put it simply, Dungeons and Dragons reinvented the use of the imagination as a kid's best toy. The cliche of parents waxing nostalgic for their wooden toys and things "they had to make themselves" has now become my own. Looking around at my toddler's room full of trucks, trains, and Transformers, I want to cry out, "I created worlds with nothing more than a twenty-sided die!"

Dungeons and Dragons was a not a way out of the mainstream, as some parents feared and other kids suspected, but a way back into the realm of story-telling. This was what my friends and I were doing: creating narratives to make sense of feeling socially marginal. We were writing stories, grand in scope, with heroes, villains, and the entire zoology of mythical creatures. Even sports, the arch-nemesis of role-playing games, is a splendid tale of adventure and glory. Though my friends and I were not always athletically inclined, we found agility in the characters we created. We fought, flew through the air, shot arrows out of the park, and scored points by slaying the dragon and disabling the trap.

Our influence is now everywhere. My generation of gamers -- whose youths were spent holed up in paneled wood basements crafting identities, mythologies, and geographies with a few lead figurines -- are the filmmakers, computer programmers, writers, DJs, and musicians of today. I think, for the producers, the movie version of "The Lord of the Rings" was less about getting the trilogy off the page and onto the screen than it was a vicarious thrill, a gift to the millions of us who wished we could have dressed up as orcs and ventured into catacombs and castle keeps ourselves. Only a generation of imaginations roused by role playing could have made those movies possible.

Dungeons and Dragons is seeing an increase in popularity as a whole new generation raised on video games begins to look for a way back to the more personally and socially engaging pleasures of sitting around with a bunch of friends and making stuff up. Imagine, parents, that some of your kids are actually turning the TV off to talk to each other, to play something that they have to "make themselves."

I am getting ready to introduce the game to my son. In a little drawer I have an unopened box of those funny-sided dice, not exactly a family relic, but a tradition to pass on nonetheless. And let's not forget that even though we are talking about a world of basilisks, knights, and talking trees, Dungeons and Dragons can help us make new stories out of the very world around us.

Democrats, you better get yourselves a magic shield, because in Congress, Bush has plus three to hit.

Peter Bebergal is a writer and teacher.
? Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

Originally Posted by Wyn76

To old for Generation X? My two 79 and one 77 friends were heavily into that!

Well, not really. It was more a matter of timing for us oldsters.

We Jonesers were playing D&D just before the big video game craze of the early 80's hit. I played my first D&D adventure in January 1979. I played my first rounds of Asteroids and Missile Command at least two years later.

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Wyn76

To old for Generation X? My two 79 and one 77 friends were heavily into that!

Well, not really. It was more a matter of timing for us oldsters.

We Jonesers were playing D&D just before the big video game craze of the early 80's hit. I played my first D&D adventure in January 1979. I played my first rounds of Asteroids and Missile Command at least two years later.

I also know boomers older than myself who were heavily into D&D.

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Wyn76

To old for Generation X? My two 79 and one 77 friends were heavily into that!

Well, not really. It was more a matter of timing for us oldsters.

We Jonesers were playing D&D just before the big video game craze of the early 80's hit. I played my first D&D adventure in January 1979. I played my first rounds of Asteroids and Missile Command at least two years later.

"(arms waving)...with the whole family hooked on Asteroids, what's a poor Martian mother to do????!!!"

I still remember the game and the hilarious commericial, circa 1982 :-)

Originally Posted by Wyn76

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Wyn76

To old for Generation X? My two 79 and one 77 friends were heavily into that!

Well, not really. It was more a matter of timing for us oldsters.

We Jonesers were playing D&D just before the big video game craze of the early 80's hit. I played my first D&D adventure in January 1979. I played my first rounds of Asteroids and Missile Command at least two years later.

Have you ever played any of the video game RPG's?

Only a couple of times. I have a Star Trek Next Generation RPG CD-ROM that I looked at once, then put it aside to gather dust.

For some reason, I feel constrained by playing RPG's on the computer -- like my options are limited by what the computer program can do, rather than by my own imagination.

When I play RPG's the traditional way, it's always a thrill to do something that completely throws the GM off his diabolical plan. :lol:

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

When I play RPG's the traditional way, it's always a thrill to do something that completely throws the GM off his diabolical plan. :lol:

HarHarHar!

Puts me in the mind of the time we'd spent months of playing time trying to find some hidden temple or another -- giving the GM time to build up an elaborate, painstakingly-detailed, mapped, stocked, logically coherent, anthropologically (orcipoligically? elfipologically?) sound complex of buildings and catacombs. Then, we found an entrance and in twenty minutes or so, got into our first fight, lost a guy, bailed out and never came back. Ah... the look on the GM's face across the piles and reams of paper when we the players turned to each other and said, "screw that! let's check out whatever's up north a ways..."

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

When I play RPG's the traditional way, it's always a thrill to do something that completely throws the GM off his diabolical plan. :lol:

HarHarHar!

Puts me in the mind of the time we'd spent months of playing time trying to find some hidden temple or another -- giving the GM time to build up an elaborate, painstakingly-detailed, mapped, stocked, logically coherent, anthropologically (orcipoligically? elfipologically?) sound complex of buildings and catacombs. Then, we found an entrance and in twenty minutes or so, got into our first fight, lost a guy, bailed out and never came back. Ah... the look on the GM's face across the piles and reams of paper when we the players turned to each other and said, "screw that! let's check out whatever's up north a ways..."

What you find up north a ways is another temple that looks remarkably like that last one.

Originally Posted by jeffw

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

When I play RPG's the traditional way, it's always a thrill to do something that completely throws the GM off his diabolical plan. :lol:

HarHarHar!

Puts me in the mind of the time we'd spent months of playing time trying to find some hidden temple or another -- giving the GM time to build up an elaborate, painstakingly-detailed, mapped, stocked, logically coherent, anthropologically (orcipoligically? elfipologically?) sound complex of buildings and catacombs. Then, we found an entrance and in twenty minutes or so, got into our first fight, lost a guy, bailed out and never came back. Ah... the look on the GM's face across the piles and reams of paper when we the players turned to each other and said, "screw that! let's check out whatever's up north a ways..."

What you find up north a ways is another temple that looks remarkably like that last one.

::snort::

Dr Funkenstein:

Str 18 00
Int 18
Wis 18
Con 18
Chr 18

and Dex...3

(wildly successful am i when i am not tripping over mysef and accidentally imapaling myself with my middle finger) :lol:

How would you like to go to a Final Fantasy concert?

Video game concerts draw packed crowds

ROSEMONT, Ill. - Liam Conlon doesn't fit the profile of your typical
classical concertgoer. But when the high school freshman recently
discovered that a show featuring music from the computer game "Final
Fantasy" would be playing near his suburban Chicago home, he could
hardly believe it.

"Wowwww!" he muttered to himself as he perused a Web page with concert
info. "It's here!"

He and a friend snapped up a pair of fifth-row tickets to the Rosemont
Theatre concert and joined the cheering, sellout crowd of nearly 4,500
that turned out to see the Chicagoland Pops Orchestra play. Above the
stage, images from the game ? a theatrical and multi-chaptered quest
to save the world ? played on giant video screens.

The response ? including several standing ovations ? was much the same
last year when the Los Angeles Philharmonic played the music at the
Walt Disney Concert Hall.

"We never envisioned that we were going to be playing video game
music," conductor Miguel Harth-Bedoya said, drawing appreciative
laughter from audience members, many of them in their teens and 20s
and decked out in everything from tuxes and gowns to jeans and T-shirts.

It was a scene many orchestras would envy at a time when classical
groups continue to struggle financially, and when some are branching
out to try new formats as a means for survival.

The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, for instance, started "Symphony
With a Splash," a program aimed at young professionals that begins
with a cocktail hour.

The North Carolina Symphony recently played a concert that featured a
slide show of photos taken by young people. And the Hollywood Bowl
Orchestra has played a popular series featuring the music from the
"Lord of the Rings" trilogy, among others films.

This latest tour ? called "Dear Friends, the Music from Final Fantasy"
? pushes the
boundaries further by featuring music that, while largely unknown to
classical or mainstream music listeners, is huge among computer gamers.

"It raised the bar for computer game music," says Jonathan Smith, a
19-year-old freshman from the University of Michigan who was part of
the choir that helped open the concert with "Liberi Fatali," the
dramatic introductory number from "Final Fantasy VIII" that serious
players instantly recognize.

For them, the music tells a story ? and reminds them of epic battles
fought and love won and lost on the computer screen. And while some
classical music buffs might roll their eyes, to them, the music's
creator, 55-year-old Japanese composer Nobuo Uematsu, is on par with
any rock star.

Donald Milton III, a 21-year-old junior at Michigan who also was in
the choir, remembers humming harmonies to the music when he played
"Final Fantasy" as a kid, even when the music in early versions of the
game wasn't generated by much more than a keyboard synthesizer.

"Music from a game like this can pull people in to hear some of the
classics," Milton says.

Andrew Bales, president of Symphony Silicon Valley, agrees that
Uematsu's compositions holds their own among classical repertoire.
After deciding that his orchestra would play a "Final Fantasy" concert
in San Francisco next Monday, Bales recently gave the orchestra's
timpanist a compact disc of the music to listen to.

"He said, `You know, I'm pretty impressed. This is going to be a good
concert,'" says Bales, who's already planning on a second "Final
Fantasy" concert next year.

Orchestra representatives from such cities as Atlanta and Cleveland
also are considering joining the tour, says Arnie Roth, music director
and principal conductor for the Chicagoland Pops Orchestra. And he
believes they are wise to do so.

"It's not an easy time for most arts organization," Roth says, noting
that the St. Louis Symphony is currently on strike.

"I can't imagine why people wouldn't want to jump on this type of
show. It's an automatic way to expand your audience," says Roth, who's
also a member of the group Mannheim Steamroller, which currently has
one of the top-grossing concert tours in the country.

Others in the industry say it's a matter of orchestras losing their
stuffy image.

"You don't want to make it seem like you have to be retired and
driving your Lexus in order to listen to classical music," says Alan
Fletcher, head of the School of Music at Carnegie Mellon University.

For his part, composer Uematsu ? who's made appearances on stage at
each "Final Fantasy" concert ? says the U.S. response has been gratifying.

"If I felt that the music was inferior in comparison to other music
that is out," he says, "I wouldn't hold a concert, especially outside
of Japan."

The subject of classical music appeared on another thread.

"...Classical music survived, after a fashion. But it has less to say about today. It endures overwhelmingly on the strength of its back catalogue and performance tradition, not of any new creativity. Having failed to persuade the public to embrace modern music, it has sustained itself only by rediscovering the music of earlier epochs....

But how is the orchestra that plays it to survive? Video game music! Such irony! I love it!

"....The upshot was a deliberate renunciation of popularity. The audience that mattered to modernists ceased to be the general public and increasingly became other composers and the intellectual, often university-based, establishment that claimed to validate the new music....

"....Any failure of the music to become popular was ascribed not to the composer's lack of communication but the public's lack of understanding....

"...This has left the traditional carriers of the classical tradition in steady, though not yet terminal, decline. Orchestras and opera companies battle on in the face of increasing evidence of public indifference and of diminishing investment...."

"...Classical music's second coming, if it is to have one, could hardly be better timed. The popular music that once filled the place it vacated seems in turn to have largely burned itself out. Here, too, creativity is at its lowest ebb since the early 50s. The space awaiting good new music of any kind is immense."

However, the context may be very different than anticipated.

@

Originally Posted by Tim Walker

The subject of classical music appeared on another thread.

"...Classical music survived, after a fashion. But it has less to say about today. It endures overwhelmingly on the strength of its back catalogue and performance tradition, not of any new creativity. Having failed to persuade the public to embrace modern music, it has sustained itself only by rediscovering the music of earlier epochs....

But how is the orchestra that plays it to survive? Video game music! Such irony! I love it!

Being a huge fan of music from Final Fantasy and ChronoTrigger, I think I would become very interested in classical. I mean, I would much rather go to the Final Fantasy concert than one of ANY of the popular stars today. I never even knew that the St. Louis Symphony was on strike (I guess no one gave a rat's a$$).

"....The upshot was a deliberate renunciation of popularity. The audience that mattered to modernists ceased to be the general public and increasingly became other composers and the intellectual, often university-based, establishment that claimed to validate the new music....

"....Any failure of the music to become popular was ascribed not to the composer's lack of communication but the public's lack of understanding....

"...This has left the traditional carriers of the classical tradition in steady, though not yet terminal, decline. Orchestras and opera companies battle on in the face of increasing evidence of public indifference and of diminishing investment...."

"...Classical music's second coming, if it is to have one, could hardly be better timed. The popular music that once filled the place it vacated seems in turn to have largely burned itself out. Here, too, creativity is at its lowest ebb since the early 50s. The space awaiting good new music of any kind is immense."

However, the context may be very different than anticipated.

@

Video games are a very good context for the reemergence of classical music. Before the days of audible speech in gaming (which started in the FF series with Final Fantasy X), music was VERY important in conveying emotion in JRPGs (Computer RPGs in the Japanese traditio, i.e. Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy as opposed to American-style RPGs, such as Diablo and Might & Magic). And composers often did a damn good job at it too. Who can forget the Kefka theme of FFVI for instance? Who could forget the music of fighting the Fiends of Elements in FFIV? Or the Opera scene in FFVI, or the floating continent themes, along with the Atma battle theme, and that entire scene to the destruction of the world? These songs, these moments in gaming are immortal. I have to say that FFVIII sucked in comparison to its predesessors. But the music is still top notch. I don't think that people will ever forget the Esthar theme.

Being rebirthed in RPGs, we know what the music is trying to express. The mood of the music always fits the situation or level. The people who make Final Fantasy could use classical music to a level which would cause players to become emotionally attached to one inch square sprites on the screen.

Video game music, especially of the Final Fantasy sort inspired my to try my hand at composition. The first few pieces I have made seemed to emerge straight from a console game, although not as great as a Mitsuda or Uematsu.

However, I feel tepid at the prospect of future classical music to be successful by making connections with a certain emotion or concrete idea. That seems to stifle the creativity of the audience. And that could possibly spell the end of abstract forms if they didn't have some sort of desciptor attached to it.

Not to disparage having association of music with event/idea/person. It's just I think that music should speak for itself.

But man, I do want to go to one of these Final Fantasy concerts that seem to occur only once a year.

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Video game music, especially of the Final Fantasy sort inspired my to try my hand at composition. The first few pieces I have made seemed to emerge straight from a console game, although not as great as a Mitsuda or Uematsu.

However, I feel tepid at the prospect of future classical music to be successful by making connections with a certain emotion or concrete idea. That seems to stifle the creativity of the audience. And that could possibly spell the end of abstract forms if they didn't have some sort of desciptor attached to it.

Not to disparage having association of music with event/idea/person. It's just I think that music should speak for itself.

But man, I do want to go to one of these Final Fantasy concerts that seem to occur only once a year.

I agree that having the music part of a visual experience hinders usage of the imagination. This might be a little different if you listen to the same music offline. As I am writing this post, I am listening to Tidus's Theme from the FFX soundtrack. What I find interesting about this soundtrack is the inclusion of a hard rock song that is pretty awesome.

In this post, I will only speak of console gaming; i will leave PC gaming to another one. E3 will begin in less than a week. This promises to be the most exciting in years. Being that this year is divisible by 5, a new generation of gaming consoles will debut. Console gaming seems to work in precise five year cycles, except for the first one, though. An alternate history can be found here: http://www.geekcomix.com/vgh/ Unlike this person, I put any pre Atari 7800 system in the first generation category.

First generation systems ( < 1985) include any console that was released before the domestic video game industry collapsed in 1983. These include the Atari VCS, Intellivision, ColecoVision, and many other systems. In 1983, the industry crashed because of an extreme oversupply of terrible games.

Second generation systems (1985 - 1990) begin with the Atari 7800 (released in 1984), and includes consoles such as the Sega Master System (1985), and of course, the Nintendo Entertainment System, which was released in 1985. Nintendo seemingly had a monopoly on gaming during this time. It was during this era that Nintendo and video games became synonymous with each other. I don't think that any other system has yet matched the sales of the NES. Perhaps, the PS1 has, but I would need more data to confirm.

Third generation machines (1990 -1995) include the SNES (1991), Sega Genesis (1989), Turbographix16 (1989), Neo Geo (1990), Sega CD (1991), 3DO (1993), and the Atari Jaguar (1993). Of these, the SNES and Genesis were the two dominant systems. Throughout this era, both systems were locked in fierce batte for supremacy. The other gaming systems of this era did not enjoy much success, and died very young. I consider this to be the golden era of gaming. Games released since do not have the gameplay of this era.

The fourth generation (1995 - 2000) became a watershed in the history of games. This era starts with the breakout of 3D gaming systems. The Sega Saturn (1995), Sony Playstation (1995), and the Nintendo 64 (1996) were the systems to dominate. Saturn died early, leaving the battle between the N64 and the PS1. The PS1 ended up ending the war for this generation.

The fifth generation (2000 - 2005) is the current one. Four systems were released during this era. The Sega Dreamcast (1999) died quickly in the race. Sega decided to give up on the console hardware market, exclusively producing software. Sony released its PS2 in 2000, while the Nintendo Gamecube and Microsoft XBOX were released in 2001. These three systems have dominated the market up until this day. The mainly 3D games of this era were much more mature than the previous one. The quality of fifth generation surpasses thatof the fourth generation. This is also the first era with online gaming.

The sixth generation (2005 - 2010) is set to begin when either the Sony PS3, Microsoft XBOX 360, and the Nintendo Revolution are released later this year. All three systems will aggresively use their online capabiities, and will all probably include Wi Fi. These systems are set to debut (Revolution on video only, it seems) at the coming e3 show within a week.

*Article below for discussion purposes only.

New Game Consoles Set to Shake E3

It's just one week until the Electronic Entertainment Expo, when the video-game industry descends on Los Angeles for the world's most spectacular trade show -- one that promises to pack a one-two-three punch to the industry.

Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony are all expected to divulge reams of details on the next generation of video-game consoles, all three of which are expected to hit the market over the next year and a half.

Of the three companies, Microsoft should have the most detailed showing. That's because Gates and Co. are expected to release the Xbox 360 this November. Bucking industry convention, the new console will debut not at E3 but on an MTV special that will air Thursday.

The program, called MTV Presents: The Next Generation Xbox Revealed, has already been taped. (Predictably, audience members snuck out of the taping with pictures of the console and accessories.)

Most major software publishers are expected to unveil Xbox 360 titles at E3, many of which will be playable on the show floor. And industry experts suggest that the Xbox 360 will pack many functions that will take the machine beyond simple gameplay.

"Microsoft and Sony are eager to expand how many people play -- and buy -- games, and both companies see versatility and a more consumer-electronics-style design as an essential piece of the puzzle," said Peer Schneider, senior publisher at IGN Entertainment.

"Considering the fact that these consoles use DVD media, are online and sit right next to a player's TV, additional uses like video chat and movie playback are no-brainers. Add a hard drive, and you've got a pretty slick alternative to many by-comparison-underdeveloped personal video recorder units."

But "just because a device can do something doesn't mean that it's going to be used for that," cautioned John Davison, vice president of Ziff Davis Media Game Group. "At the end of the day, people use games machines to play games on.

"As for Sony, I think the PSX left a foul taste in their mouth," said Davison, referring to the ill-fated hybrid PlayStation 2 and television-to-DVD recorder that Sony launched two years ago in Japan to tepid critical and consumer response.

And yet, Sony seems to be heading even further down the convergence path. French-language business site Boursier.com quoted Georges Fournay, senior vice president of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, as saying that the PS3 will be an "entertainment server in the home" intended to "replace the VCR and DVD player under the television in the living room."

The console, Fournay reportedly told the site, will bring convergence between "games, movies, music, broadband internet and downloading."

And what of Nintendo? With its next hardware system, code-named "Revolution," Nintendo also "wants to expand beyond just a market of hard-core game players," said Schneider, "but it believes the way to do it is via unconventional software and input mechanisms."

How unconventional the Revolution will be is still a secret, but Nintendo President Satoru Iwata revealed at this year's Game Developers Conference that the system would be backward-compatible with existing GameCube software, meaning that the console must also support the traditional joystick-and-buttons input method.

The Revolution's processing power should be comparable to the Xbox 360's, as both companies are partnering with IBM and ATI Technologies to develop their systems' main CPUs and graphics chips, respectively.

The PlayStation 3, meanwhile, will be built around the Cell processor, which Sony is developing in collaboration with IBM and Toshiba. It is a multi-core processor said to deliver 10 times the processing power of the chips in today's PCs. The console will also play Blu-ray discs, which store about six times the data of a DVD.

But all this power might not be used very wisely, cautions game developer and frequent GDC speaker Chris Hecker. "I worry that the game industry is constantly grabbing at the lowest-hanging fruit, and that turns out to almost always be 'make the graphics look better,'" he said.

Multiple-core processors like Cell are excellent for graphics code, which is "fairly simplistic in its flow," Hecker said. "It's relatively easy to make that code run on multiple processors. Gameplay code, on the other hand, is usually a mess of interacting systems. That feedback and interdependency" does not lend itself well to parallel processing, he said.

In short, "we'll see even more derivative, simplistic crap," said Hecker. "We certainly make plenty of money right now as an industry, but we don't have anywhere near the level of creative control or understanding of the tools of our form to thrive and experiment, as opposed to just doing sequels and licensed properties from those other art forms."

But is it possible to free the industry from the licensed-content model? "Gamers expect more realistic visuals," said Schneider, but also "more star power in games and more licensed everything." New gamers, especially, will have to be "lured in by a movielike experience, big name licenses and recognizable talent from both the music scene and Hollywood.

"Given the need to reach a broader audience that extends beyond the traditional hard core, it might become very hard to convince a publisher to take a risk with new, creative gameplay concepts or (to) back a completely unknown (intellectual property)."

At any rate, publishers know that at E3, they have to wow gamers -- and that's not done with PowerPoint presentations or tech demos.

"No floaty feathers or dinosaur heads," said Ziff Davis' Davison. "They want to see Gran Turismo or Final Fantasy or Tekken cooking on all its Cell-fueled cylinders."

Next week, they will.

The next generation of game consoles are upon us!

And frankly, for someone who entered gaming in the third generation and later caught up during the fifth generation, I'm not all too eager about the latest stuff that is happening out there.

Probably because I still would like to see how far the current systems have to go before the options are exhausted and I tend to be a slow mover in the gaming world, then again, this is also true in my case with any cultural trend. They seem to modify themselves so quickly I couldn't register the change as it happens and kind of get left behind in the current.

But for these new consoles, I'll wait this one out and see how far they go before I invest in one of them myself.

I'll still pay attention though, the details are just too enticing to pass up.

And even months later i still am not feeling impressed at what is coming next for the new generation of consoles. Only the DS has gained my attention for its innovation.

On another subject, The Economist has chimed in on the "Hot Coffee" affair with GTA: San Andreas.

I love the generational comment in the final paragraphs:

Another analogy can be made between games and music—specifically, with the emergence of rock and roll in the 1950s. Like games today, it was a new art form that was condemned for encouraging bad behaviour among young people. Some records were banned from the radio, and others had their lyrics changed. Politicians called for laws banning the sending of offending records by post. But now the post-war generation has grown up, rock and roll is considered to be harmless. Rap music, or gaming, is under attack instead. “There's always this pattern,” says Mr Williams of the University of Illinois. “Old stuff is respected, and new stuff is junk.” Novels, he points out, were once considered too lowbrow to be studied at university. Eventually the professors who believed this retired. Novels are now regarded as literature. “Once a generation has its perception, it is pretty much set,” says Mr Williams. “What happens is that they die.”

Like rock and roll in the 1950s, games have been accepted by the young and largely rejected by the old. Once the young are old, and the old are dead, games will be regarded as just another medium and the debate will have moved on. Critics of gaming do not just have the facts against them; they have history against them, too. “Thirty years from now, we'll be arguing about holograms, or something,” says Mr Williams.

Alright! Video games are the new rock and roll, and I can't wait till I get to complain about those all-too-real and corruptive holograms!

Amazingly, what the article said about problem solving and GTA is true. I had to strategize with my sister on the harder missions of GTA3 when we ended up failing them too many times. And it also helped for teamwork too. She was the driver, but was horrible with directions, so I was the navigator, since I am lousy with game driving.