Eric, there is the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. But there are other concepts, such as the Interdimensional Hypothesis. Even time travelers from our own future.

Wiki Multiverse article.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Eric, there is the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. But there are other concepts, such as the Interdimensional Hypothesis. Even time travelers from our own future.

It is good to be open to all the possible explanations, at least until we know more.

Indications that our universe is feeling the gravitational tug of another universe.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Without any real pressure to expand, and with quite a lot of room to expand into, the logic of Fermi fails.

This was my original point. There would be no reason for a civilization to venture outside of their own solar system at all, or if they felt an emotional impulse to do so, beyond a fairly small distance. Unless the closest civilization to Earth happened to be one of the civilizations that do venture outside of their system and unless it were very close they still would never get here. All that is needed for this to be true is slow boat and an upper limit on the number of civilizations in the galaxy that are currently exploring .

If it were possible to travel between stars "Star Trek style", then one could simply travel from one Earth-like to planet to another in amatter of days or weeks (as the Trekers do). There would be no need for biome construction, since all the trips would be short term, like our space flights today. It would be pretty similar to humans spreading out over the Earth.

In this case the aliens would be all over the place, and many species would be regularly visiting Earth (surely as a rising civilization on the verge of space capability we would be an object of curiosity). You'd think at least one of them would have made their presence known. But they haven't. This, of course is the Fermi paradox, but it depends on an assumption of easy interstellar travel.

If interstellar travel is hard relative to other things that could be done with the same resources then those other things will always get done instead of space travel. It's not like an advanced civilization couldn't come here, its that they would never get around to it because there would always be something else they want to do first.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

This was my original point. There would be no reason for a civilization to venture outside of their own solar system at all, or if they felt an emotional impulse to do so, beyond a fairly small distance. Unless the closest civilization to Earth happened to be one of the civilizations that do venture outside of their system and unless it were very close they still would never get here. All that is needed for this to be true is slow boat and an upper limit on the number of civilizations in the galaxy that are currently exploring .

If it were possible to travel between stars "Star Trek style", then one could simply travel from one Earth-like to planet to another in amatter of days or weeks (as the Trekers do). There would be no need for biome construction, since all the trips would be short term, like our space flights today. It would be pretty similar to humans spreading out over the Earth.

In this case the aliens would be all over the place, and many species would be regularly visiting Earth (surely as a rising civilization on the verge of space capability we would be an object of curiosity). You'd think at least one of them would have made their presence known. But they haven't. This, of course is the Fermi paradox, but it depends on an assumption of easy interstellar travel.

If interstellar travel is hard relative to other things that could be done with the same resources then those other things will always get done instead of space travel. It's not like an advanced civilization couldn't come here, its that they would never get around to it because there would always be something else they want to do first.

But curiosity about life elsewhere is a powerful motive; ask the engineers at NASA operating the Mars mission now. There's no reason to limit our view of reality to slow boat. That is just current Earth physics. And there's plenty of evidence that aliens are and have been visiting here. Just ask your local Mutual UFO Network for the details.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Indications that our universe is feeling the gravitational tug of another universe.

Is it another universe, or just more of our universe that lies beyond the horizon of the observable?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

I don't believe orbital habitats can be viable without drastic alteration of the human genotype. The problem isn't living space but total environmental footprint. I suggest considering what happened with Biosphere II concerning the difficulty of building micro-ecosystems that are self-sustaining.

I'm convinced the way nature does it is by redundancy. You can see this in the way reproduction works in every species, with a lot more reproductive cells produced than are needed. Failure is allowed for. The same thing happens with the biosphere and its symbiotic support system. There is enough redundancy built in that the system is very robust. We think of nature as a "delicate balance," but it's really not delicate at all. If it were, it wouldn't exist today, because we've had five going on six huge mass extinctions and a delicate system wouldn't have survived any of them. There's no way to reproduce that redundancy on a small scale.

I'm thinking that these habitats wouldn't be isolated from each other though, but that there would be plenty of trade between them--including trade in seeds or animal stock developed on other habitats, to maintain sufficient genetic diversity. Each could be self-sufficient in food for a good while if such trade is disrupted, though.

Eric, I rented Through the Wormhole DVD, and the description-and the illustration-was that of a universe distinct from our own. In the illustration our universe and the other where shown as seperate blobs in a hyper space.

I have imagined life in a space habitat would be similar to life on a small island. In fact, I can imagine endangered species from islands-such as Hawaiian or Galapagos Is. or Madagascar-finding refuge in such habitats.

Description of brown dwarf.

The Many Worlds Interpretation.

Rogue planets may out number stars.

statistically..there would have to be life elsewhere in the universe...however..contrary to star trek..a technology that would allow them to reach us might simply not be possible...

as an aside..while super-luminal travel is theoretically possible..it requires things like "exotic [gravitational repulsive] matter".. and energy equivalent to the mass-energy content of the entire solar system.. which not even aliens could get...

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And there's plenty of evidence that aliens are and have been visiting here. Just ask your local Mutual UFO Network for the details.

Actually the evidence strongly indicates the opposite. The belief is based on reported observations that have been made over a long period of time, e.g. the famous Roswell incident in 1947. If these observations made 60+ years ago are valid that means that alien presence was detectable by humans with WW II-level technology. A common complaint made by UFO skeptics in those early days was the absence of close-up photos of UFOs for which eyewitness accounts existed. The response was that most people don't go about their daily lives lugging cameras. Another argument made by proponents was that the government covered up the evidence as soon as it appearred.

Technological changes made since WW II have dramatically changed this situation. Today a substantial portion of the population do carry cameras around with them in their cell phones. Not only that but photos and video images taken by cell phones can distributed throughout the world via the internet within minutes of an event being discovered. A Roswell incident today could not be covered up as detailed photos would be everywhere long before an official response could be mounted.

With the old tecnology, evidence for only a small fraction of events would get out, with the new, they all would, implying that the volume of high-quality UFO observational data would be many times higher today than then. Such a massive volume would establish the reality of the phenomenon. That such a volume has not occurred, incidates that it is either not occuring at all or it is at such a small rate that it would be completely undetected in the WW II era. That is, if alien visitation was real it would be a notion that only appeared in the last few years, and not more than 60 years ago.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

With the old tecnology, evidence for only a small fraction of events would get out, with the new, they all would, implying that the volume of high-quality UFO observational data would be many times higher today than then. Such a massive volume would establish the reality of the phenomenon. That such a volume has not occurred, incidates that it is either not occuring at all or it is at such a small rate that it would be completely undetected in the WW II era. That is, if alien visitation was real it would be a notion that only appeared in the last few years, and not more than 60 years ago.

There are plenty of photos, and have been all along; and plenty of eyewitness accounts. You just have to go to those who investigate UFOs, such as MUFON, rather than rely on mainstream media which simply does not cover this sort of thing and stays within conventional wisdom.

Here's something interesting in relation to the "slow boat" option:

http://gizmodo.com/5942634/nasa-star...rek-warp-drive

Originally Posted by Mikebert

Actually the evidence strongly indicates the opposite. The belief is based on reported observations that have been made over a long period of time, e.g. the famous Roswell incident in 1947. If these observations made 60+ years ago are valid that means that alien presence was detectable by humans with WW II-level technology. A common complaint made by UFO skeptics in those early days was the absence of close-up photos of UFOs for which eyewitness accounts existed. The response was that most people don't go about their daily lives lugging cameras. Another argument made by proponents was that the government covered up the evidence as soon as it appearred.

Technological changes made since WW II have dramatically changed this situation. Today a substantial portion of the population do carry cameras around with them in their cell phones. Not only that but photos and video images taken by cell phones can distributed throughout the world via the internet within minutes of an event being discovered. A Roswell incident today could not be covered up as detailed photos would be everywhere long before an official response could be mounted.

With the old tecnology, evidence for only a small fraction of events would get out, with the new, they all would, implying that the volume of high-quality UFO observational data would be many times higher today than then. Such a massive volume would establish the reality of the phenomenon. That such a volume has not occurred, incidates that it is either not occuring at all or it is at such a small rate that it would be completely undetected in the WW II era. That is, if alien visitation was real it would be a notion that only appeared in the last few years, and not more than 60 years ago.

From what I have read, Mack Brasel's UFO detection technology was his own eyes. Yes, I do have a camera phone, but it takes awfully shitty pictures, especially of anything moving. I agree that we should have better photos, but you also have to factor in how easy it is to alter photos these days. Most people think that photographic evidence of weird phenomena is "shopped" and for good reason. It is very easy to do.

There were coverups. It doesn't amount to "evidence" of UFO's, but something was going on back then.

Originally Posted by Aramea

... There were coverups. It doesn't amount to "evidence" of UFO's, but something was going on back then.

There are now, too. We have to have a "somewhere" to discretely test exotic aviation devices ... like the stealth helicopter used in the bin Laden raid. Middle-of-Nowhere NV or NM or even AZ seem like good options to me.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

There are now, too. We have to have a "somewhere" to discretely test exotic aviation devices ... like the stealth helicopter used in the bin Laden raid. Middle-of-Nowhere NV or NM or even AZ seem like good options to me.

That's what they WANT you to think ...

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

There are now, too. We have to have a "somewhere" to discretely test exotic aviation devices ... like the stealth helicopter used in the bin Laden raid. Middle-of-Nowhere NV or NM or even AZ seem like good options to me.

The first civilian sightings of the B2 Bomber, which was classified at the time, took them to be alien spacecraft. Most other claims of ETs are generally sightings of airplanes and satellites by credulous fools, a few others are sightings of the poorly understood phenomenon of ball lightning.

The "alien abduction" claims are the result of hypnogogic hallucination when falling asleep. "Alien abduction" is the modern form of the witches and succubi sitting on your chest. Which is why the supposed "aliens" always look humanoid.

Originally Posted by Odin

The first civilian sightings of the B2 Bomber, which was classified at the time, took them to be alien spacecraft. Most other claims of ETs are generally sightings of airplanes and satellites by credulous fools, a few others are sightings of the poorly understood phenomenon of ball lightning.

The "alien abduction" claims are the result of hypnogogic hallucination when falling asleep. "Alien abduction" is the modern form of the witches and succubi sitting on your chest. Which is why the supposed "aliens" always look humanoid.

I suffer from sleep paralysis, which is supposed to produce this phenomena, but I just wake up convinced that I have just died. I have seen "presences" in the room upon awakening, so that is as close to "old hag syndrome" as I have gotten. I had a sleep study done and no apnea was detected, so it is just waking up "too soon", so to speak. It is a VERY scary experience for about 5 minutes. I have experienced dreaming it just before it happens as, well, just about anything.

Originally Posted by Aramea

There were coverups. It doesn't amount to "evidence" of UFO's, but something was going on back then.

It was called The Cold War.

Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought

Nick Pope's FAQ.