Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's right, Time, I agree.

To Kepi's point, I would reply that this Earth is a very special place. I have heard alien stories that they admire our bodies, and come to mine our minerals. Others have come here who had to leave their first homes. We are a uniquely-situated planet. These are just stories, but who knows; they might be true. In my circles I am prone to hear them. Also, curiosity and exploration seems a natural trait among advanced beings. That's what we do, relentlessly and precociously. If we could do FTL travel, we'd do it in a heartbeat.

We can speculate about what the aliens might think, or about what advanced people can or can't do, but that seems less meaningful than actual testimony of encounters. More certain proof would be nice, but as they say, where's there's smoke, there's fire. The number of unexplainable encounters and sightings is so vast that I don't dismiss them.

Yeah, we're unique and special? Sounds like wishful thinking on maximum overdrive. If they were mining our minerals, we'd show real evidence of that, mostly via a lack of minerals. Besides, the level of technology you'd need for any sort of reliable interstellar travel, you can make your own atoms and molecules, why would they need ours?

Plus, curiosity can be sated by bringing the things in space to you with significantly less risk. I mean, we're, what? Less than 80 years in to space exploration and NASA's already figured out that manned exploration is woefully inefficient? I doubt a super advanced race wouldn't have missed that little notion.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Yeah, we're unique and special? Sounds like wishful thinking on maximum overdrive. If they were mining our minerals, we'd show real evidence of that, mostly via a lack of minerals. Besides, the level of technology you'd need for any sort of reliable interstellar travel, you can make your own atoms and molecules, why would they need ours?

You and I don't know if they can make their own molecules or not, but I did hear the story that they come for our minerals.

We are unique and special, but the interesting question is why, given the abundant resources and special beauty of this place, the life here is not only nurturing and loving of this beauty, but also consists of monsters (dinosaurs, corporate humans, or even bears, etc.). Maybe it means earthly life is given the strength and confidence to be a monster if it chooses, or to be loving if it chooses. But what the stories suggest is that other species in the galaxy admire us, but are also watchful and wary of our aggressive overconfidence. And I'm sure they are wary of our punk rock music too

Plus, curiosity can be sated by bringing the things in space to you with significantly less risk. I mean, we're, what? Less than 80 years in to space exploration and NASA's already figured out that manned exploration is woefully inefficient? I doubt a super advanced race wouldn't have missed that little notion.

You could be right about that, and some have suggested that at least some of our visitors may be robots.

Originally Posted by Time Mage

When it comes to our descendants (or aliens) I think its rather useless for us to try and determine what an advanced society can and cannot do, and their motivations. I believe half the battle in going into space will be won when we finally develop a more practical way to just lift off this rock. These might include developing actual space planes, elevators, mass drivers, repulser tech, etc.

As to Kepi question, one reason I can give for going into the great unknown is this - Expansion. It has been the mode of operation for us as we have expand outward and upward (improvement). Sometimes this has been brutal and sometimes brilliant. This drive\vision is what has pushed humanity through its current problems and into better days. It expands our opportunities, resources, experiences, knowledge, and chances for survival. I think this need for a vision is applicable to us on an individual scale as well.

Of course right now we may not be adequately advanced enough to even settle our solar system. Until that time, it may be more practical to develop Canada (according to an news commentary by Red Green's Steve Smith), Siberia, and other under developed areas. But whatever we do, we need a vision for the future. Otherwise we'll languish in a state of stagnation.

Yes indeed, and this could apply to my discussion with Kepi on the other thread about the need for vision in politics and in pop/rock music, and to my opinion that we are languishing in stagnation since circa 1980, due in large part to the lack of that sort of vision in those fields and others. But I know it will come again soon, and we will expand again. I suspect that will include space exploration, and that the aliens will continue to explore as well, if they are out there.

Of course, as for "development" here, the "expansion" we need is to learn to leave most of these areas alone. But that's another issue.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I think the aliens checked us out in 2012, including these boards, talk show TV, and election-year rhetoric, and voted to extend the quarantine another 500 years until we got out of kindergarten.

Kindergarten? Are you certain humanity is that mature? I would say that most of the human race is still basking in the warmth of their diapers.

Time mage, I feel expansion will ultimately be a literal growing outwards beyond the earth's surface, not a wandering to other locations and finding one that is suitable. Much like I said before, strap engines on a planet, move it, build other artificial planets capable of sustaining their own biosphere.

Eric, if they can't assemble their own atoms, a technology we've developed, just haven't been able to be able to use it practically yet, I'm thoroughly unimpressed by these aliens.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Time mage, I feel expansion will ultimately be a literal growing outwards beyond the earth's surface, not a wandering to other locations and finding one that is suitable. Much like I said before, strap engines on a planet, move it, build other artificial planets capable of sustaining their own biosphere.

That's a lot more fanciful than just accepting the fact that evidence exists for them already being here.

Eric, if they can't assemble their own atoms, a technology we've developed, just haven't been able to be able to use it practically yet, I'm thoroughly unimpressed by these aliens.

I'm sure they can to some extent (we can't really assemble our own atoms yet in any meaningful way), and I can't second guess why they want our minerals. I suspect it would not because they need them to travel. Advanced travel will be done by quantum or spiritual methods, through worm holes, and so on.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Kindergarten? Are you certain humanity is that mature? I would say that most of the human race is still basking in the warmth of their diapers.

On that one, copperfield, you and I agree

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's a lot more fanciful than just accepting the fact that evidence exists for them already being here.

Not at all, because it's going to be a maximum efficiency solution, being large enough to be a sustainable and not need artificial life support or gravity.

Originally Posted by Eric

I'm sure they can to some extent (we can't really assemble our own atoms yet in any meaningful way), and I can't second guess why they want our minerals. I suspect it would not because they need them to travel. Advanced travel will be done by quantum or spiritual methods, through worm holes, and so on.

We made anti-matter just like... 2 months ago! We can assemble our own atoms in a way that means that they're atoms. We can't mass produce them yet, but that's due to it not being cost friendly, not that it's ineffective. If you can travel through "quantum methods" you have to have the technology to manufacture your own feldspar or whatever you like.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Not at all, because it's going to be a maximum efficiency solution, being large enough to be a sustainable and not need artificial life support or gravity.



We made anti-matter just like... 2 months ago! We can assemble our own atoms in a way that means that they're atoms. We can't mass produce them yet, but that's due to it not being cost friendly, not that it's ineffective. If you can travel through "quantum methods" you have to have the technology to manufacture your own feldspar or whatever you like.

You can't say what the aliens can and can't do, because our knowledge and capabilities are limited to what WE know and can do. Our science is especially limited in that respect, given the tunnel vision exhibited by most Earth scientists today.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You can't say what the aliens can and can't do, because our knowledge and capabilities are limited to what WE know and can do. Our science is especially limited in that respect, given the tunnel vision exhibited by most Earth scientists today.

I think it's pretty safe to say that if you can control sub atomic particles, you can construct atoms out of them. I mean, that's the star trek method of teleportation. However, that's also what you'd be dealing with regarding quantum anything.

Originally Posted by Time Mage

Actually I consider the Star Trek form of teleportation a murderous nightmare that I would never consent to. From what I understand it is a form of long distance cloning. The problem is, just because you can replicate a person with all your attributes and memories, doesn't mean its actually you. So in reality each time you teleport someone, you're actually making a copy and destroying (killing) the original person!

Yeah, that's one of the problems with any sort of activity on a particle or sub particle level. You're playing with the fabric of reality and when you do that you're going to be profaning the sacred when you do anything beyond the most simple of actions.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Yeah, that's one of the problems with any sort of activity on a particle or sub particle level. You're playing with the fabric of reality and when you do that you're going to be profaning the sacred when you do anything beyond the most simple of actions.

The fabric of reality is spiritual. Our society has no problem with grossly profaning that at every waking moment.

Originally Posted by Kepi

I think it's pretty safe to say that if you can control sub atomic particles, you can construct atoms out of them. I mean, that's the star trek method of teleportation. However, that's also what you'd be dealing with regarding quantum anything.

So aliens are like alchemists who can turn lead into gold, and so they don't need to come here to mine our precious minerals. But we don't know that is true about all alien races. And the stories I heard that they have come here for our minerals may still be true, whether or not it matches your theories about what aliens ought to be able to do.

We might have minerals that don't exist in mine-able quantities elsewhere, here on this very special unique planet!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

So aliens are like alchemists who can turn lead into gold, and so they don't need to come here to mine our precious minerals. But we don't know that is true about all alien races. And the stories I heard that they have come here for our minerals may still be true, whether or not it matches your theories about what aliens ought to be able to do.

Assuming that a species is capable of intersteller travel (FTL or "slow boat") and the life support technology necessary to support such an undertaking, I highly doubt they would need to come to Earth and take our minerals such as they are. Not when there are completely unpopulated planets and asteroids they could have for the taking without having to worry about the fuss and trouble of the native population.

Furthermore assuming such a society has infinite energy why would they need to come to Earth and take our minerals anyway? Surely such a society could just as easily replicate each of the necessary elements for their production.

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For the record I voted for Big Bang. If an intelligent species is much like us, given our history, it is likely they would use their technology to annihilate themselves before they are interstellar capable. That said, it is my view that sapient life is rare in the universe while life itself is not. I fully expect extraterrestrial bacteria to be found in the next century or two.

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Assuming that a species is capable of intersteller travel (FTL or "slow boat") and the life support technology necessary to support such an undertaking, I highly doubt they would need to come to Earth and take our minerals such as they are. Not when there are completely unpopulated planets and asteroids they could have for the taking without having to worry about the fuss and trouble of the native population.

Furthermore assuming such a society has infinite energy why would they need to come to Earth and take our minerals anyway? Surely such a society could just as easily replicate each of the necessary elements for their production.

---

For the record I voted for Big Bang. If an intelligent species is much like us, given our history, it is likely they would use their technology to annihilate themselves before they are interstellar capable. That said, it is my view that sapient life is rare in the universe while life itself is not. I fully expect extraterrestrial bacteria to be found in the next century or two.

Didn't we already find extraterrestrial bacteria, or was that proven to be something from here knocked into space? I remember it from somewhere between 97 and 99.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Didn't we already find extraterrestrial bacteria, or was that proven to be something from here knocked into space? I remember it from somewhere between 97 and 99.

If I remember correctly the problem is that where it was found brings with it controversy. The thing is it was found on earth, and did have structures which could be fossilized bacteria, but it could also be something other than fossilized bacteria. So there is debate over whether it is extraterrestrial bacteria or contamination from Earth.

That said the Mars rovers have found interesting samples that COULD (I stress could) be fossilized bacteria. I don't think there will be definitive proof of extraterrestrial life until we find some living cells somewhere other than earth.

Rogue planets

Scientific American Jan. 2015 Better Than Earth by Rene Heller. Article suggests that super Earths may be the most promising abodes for life. And that our Earth may be marginally suitable for life.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

So aliens are like alchemists who can turn lead into gold, and so they don't need to come here to mine our precious minerals

No. Lead has additional stability because it's doubly "magic". IOW, a lead nucleus has enhanced stability from the proton/neutron count. A more promising way is to knock a proton off of a mercury nucleus.

But we don't know that is true about all alien races. And the stories I heard that they have come here for our minerals may still be true, whether or not it matches your theories about what aliens ought to be able to do.

I doubt it. The earth's elements excepting hydrogen, helium, and perhaps a bit of lithium were forged in stars. Aliens would find it far more efficient to gather elements from nearby planets/asteroids. There's nothing unique about the elements here on earth.

We might have minerals that don't exist in mine-able quantities elsewhere, here on this very special unique planet!

No. Again, hydrogen and helium are going to be very abundant. Next, elements with magic numbers would also tend to have an enhanced availability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_number_(physics).

The earth is more unique in that it:

1. The sun is a long lived yellow dwarf.
2. The earth is in the habitable zone.
3. Jupiter and Saturn reduce the number of asteroid impacts.
4. Plate tectonics exists. This allows recycling of CO2. If there were no plate tectonics, the CO2 would get used up with the weathering of rock. No CO2, no O2.

Uh, when ya gonna get yerself edukated on geology?

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

No. Lead has additional stability because it's doubly "magic". IOW, a lead nucleus has enhanced stability from the proton/neutron count. A more promising way is to knock a proton off of a mercury nucleus.

Yes that's makes sense, if they are doing chemistry, and not alchemy. But we don't know what the aliens are doing. It's cinch they are more advanced both in technology and spiritually than we are.

I doubt it. The earth's elements excepting hydrogen, helium, and perhaps a bit of lithium were forged in stars. Aliens would find it far more efficient to gather elements from nearby planets/asteroids. There's nothing unique about the elements here on earth.

Then why are the aliens coming here to mine them? If they go to other planets, they could be going here. There's lots more here than on asteroids.

No. Again, hydrogen and helium are going to be very abundant. Next, elements with magic numbers would also tend to have an enhanced availability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_number_(physics).

There are other kinds of magic that science people know nothing of, but alchemists do.

The earth is more unique in that it:

1. The sun is a long lived yellow dwarf.
2. The earth is in the habitable zone.
3. Jupiter and Saturn reduce the number of asteroid impacts.
4. Plate tectonics exists. This allows recycling of CO2. If there were no plate tectonics, the CO2 would get used up with the weathering of rock. No CO2, no O2.

1. Middle aged in its lifespan.
2. Interesting idea posted by Tim that alien Earths might be more habitable than ours.
3. Yeah, but Jupiter probably caused the asteroids to exist in the first place, by not allowing the planet to form in the Belt.

4. I think plate tectonics allows more cracks into which hot spots can erupt, bringing out more CO2.

Uh, when ya gonna get yerself edukated on geology?

Vandal will never let me graduate.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Scientific American Jan. 2015 Better Than Earth by Rene Heller. Article suggests that super Earths may be the most promising abodes for life. And that our Earth may be marginally suitable for life.

We've got a big problem with keeping enough CO2 available for green plants to live off of. I know there is presently a lot of hysteria about CO2 but in reality it is in a slow secular decline in the grand scheme of things. The biosphere is way less suitable for life now than it was 100MY ago. And at some point, life as we know it will simply die out. We need another place to live.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

We've got a big problem with keeping enough CO2 available for green plants to live off of. I know there is presently a lot of hysteria about CO2 but in reality it is in a slow secular decline in the grand scheme of things. The biosphere is way less suitable for life now than it was 100MY ago. And at some point, life as we know it will simply die out. We need another place to live.

Yup. That's another paradox. The "Anthropocene era" is basically a reset of the carbon cycle. Humans are pushing carbon from places that plate tectonics probably won't get to like Wyoming and forcing that carbon back into the cycle. The other paradox is smelting/blast furnaces are forcing more O2/S in an indirect manner back into their cycles. As for a time cycle, most of the coal is a buried form of carbon from the Carboniferous times. Yeah, we'll need another place to live, not because of the carbon cycle. Humans have mastered the reset there, but rather because the sun is growing hotter over time and at some point, the earth will exit the habitable zone.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes that's makes sense, if they are doing chemistry, and not alchemy. But we don't know what the aliens are doing. It's cinch they are more advanced both in technology and spiritually than we are.

Alchemy? How can that change the number of protons an atom has?

Then why are the aliens coming here to mine them? If they go to other planets, they could be going here. There's lots more here than on asteroids.

I believe I said, they would not bother coming here to mine stuff. I wouldn't rule out mining iron on Mercury or hydrogen on Jupiter. As for asteroids, I far rather use those as iron/nickel mines than anywhere on earth.

There are other kinds of magic that science people know nothing of, but alchemists do.

Alchemists can't transmute atoms. One has to use the strong and weak nuclear forces to do that.

1. Middle aged in its lifespan.
2. Interesting idea posted by Tim that alien Earths might be more habitable than ours.
3. Yeah, but Jupiter probably caused the asteroids to exist in the first place, by not allowing the planet to form in the Belt.

Yes, Jupiter did cause a planet fail. However it and Saturn bat asteroids orbiting just beyond Pluto out. There's a lot more located there.

4. I think plate tectonics allows more cracks into which hot spots can erupt, bringing out more CO2.

Uh, no. An opposite argument could be made that spreading centers reduce the number of hot spots by providing the mantle another place to transfer heat. [ Actually, I know of no interrelationship between the 2. ]

Vandal will never let me graduate.

Well, my guess is he thinks alchemy as major woo-woo.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Yup. That's another paradox. The "Anthropocene era" is basically a reset of the carbon cycle. Humans are pushing carbon from places that plate tectonics probably won't get to like Wyoming and forcing that carbon back into the cycle. The other paradox is smelting/blast furnaces are forcing more O2/S in an indirect manner back into their cycles. As for a time cycle, most of the coal is a buried form of carbon from the Carboniferous times. Yeah, we'll need another place to live, not because of the carbon cycle. Humans have mastered the reset there, but rather because the sun is growing hotter over time and at some point, the earth will exit the habitable zone.

I seriously doubt we could ever burn enough carbon to defeat the inevitable (and that inevitable ought to hit well prior to Sol's trouble making). Even if we could overcome some of the technical challenges, the demand to burn is going to decline from mid this century onward. So no money to get enough carbon out of the ground.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Alchemy? How can that change the number of protons an atom has?

I'm basically just kidding; you said the aliens don't need our gold, and I said well maybe that's because they are alchemists who can turn lead into gold. But, my alchemy book ends with the suggestion that an alchemist who has completed the great work of spiritual integration and enlightenment, may gain the ability to turn lead into gold through consciousness. I don't know if that's true, but if so it would not matter what the number of protons an atom has; it would change by mental means. The reason it might work (not for an alchemist who tried by some physical experiment to change it) is because the universe is basically mental.

I believe I said, they would not bother coming here to mine stuff. I wouldn't rule out mining iron on Mercury or hydrogen on Jupiter.

Why would they rule out coming here then, if they might go to Jupiter or Mercury?

Alchemists can't transmute atoms. One has to use the strong and weak nuclear forces to do that.

Refer to above.

Yes, Jupiter did cause a planet fail. However it and Saturn bat asteroids orbiting just beyond Pluto out. There's a lot more located there.

From what I read, Pluto and Neptune attract some Kuiperbelt objects to fall inward. They may become centaurs, and later comets.

Well, my guess is he thinks alchemy as major woo-woo.

Well, that's a pretty good guess. I say that's about as certain as that the Moon is not made of green cheese. But my point is that no matter how much knowledge of geology I acquired, using your definition of it, Vandal would not credit or recognize it.

We know there is more volcanic and earthquake activity where continental plates meet. But the caldera in Yellowstone is not one of those places. The ones in California and Indonesia are closer.