Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Objections to Generational Dynamics - Page 26







Post#626 at 04-02-2005 12:36 AM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-02-2005, 12:36 AM #626
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

The Law

Dear Sean,

The following is the story I was referring to.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com

"The Law" by Robert Myron Coates

This story appeared in The New Yorker in 1947, and was
reprinted in The World of Mathematics by James R. Newman
(1956), Vol. 4, New York: Simon and Schuster, p. 2268.


The first intimation that things were getting out of hand came one
early-fall evening in the late nineteen-forties. What happened,
simply, was that between seven and nine o'clock on that evening the
Triborough Bridge had the heaviest concentration of out-bound traffic
in its entire history. This was odd, for it was a weekday evening (to
be precise, a Wednesday), and though the weather was agreeably mild
and clear, with a moon that was close enough to being full to lure a
certain number of motorists out of the city, these facts alone were
not enough to explain the phenomenon. No other bridge or main highway
was affected, and though the two preceding nights had been equally
balmy and moonlit, on both of these the bridge traffic had run close
to normal.

The bridge personnel, at any rate, was caught entirely unprepared. A
main artery of traffic, like the Triborough, operates under fairly
predictable conditions. Motor travel, like most other large-scale
human activities, obeys the Law of Averages - that great, ancient rule
that states that the actions of people in the mass will always follow
consistent patterns - and on the basis of past experience it had
always been possible to foretell, almost to the last digit, the number
of cars that would cross the bridge at any given hour of the day or
night. In this case, though, all rules were broken.

The hours from seven till nearly midnight are normally quiet ones on
the bridge. But on that night it was as if all the motorists in the
city, or at any rate, a staggering proportion of them, had conspired
together to upset tradition. Beginning almost exactly at seven
o'clock, cars poured onto the bridge in such numbers and with such
rapidity that the staff at the toll booths was overwhelmed almost from
the start. It was soon apparent that this was no momentary congestion,
and as it became more and more obvious that the traffic jam promised
to be one of truly monumental proportions, added details of police
were rushed to the scene to help handle it.

Cars streamed in from all directions - from the Bronx approach and the
Manhattan one, from 125th Street and the East River Drive. (At the
peak of the crush, about eight-fifteen, observers on the bridge
reported that the drive was a solid line of car headlights as far
south as the bend at Eightyninth Street, while the congestion
cross-town in Manhattan disrupted traffic as far west as Amsterdam
Avenue). And perhaps the most confusing thing about the whole
manifestation was that there seemed to be no reason for it. Now and
then, as the harried toll-booth attendants made change for the
seemingly endless stream of cars, they would question the occupants,
and it soon became clear that the very participants in the monstrous
tieup were as ignorant of its cause as anyone else was.

A report made by Sergeant Alfonse O'Toole, who commanded the detail in
charge of the Bronx approach, is typical. "I kept askin' them," he
said, "'Is there night football somewhere that we don't know about? Is
it the races you're goin' to?' But the funny thing was half the time
they'd be askin' me. 'What's the crowd for, Mac?' they would say. And
I'd just look at them. There was one guy I mind, in a Ford convertible
with a girl in the seat beside him, and when he asked me, I said to
him, 'Hey, you're in the crowd, ain't you?' I said. 'What brings you
here?' And the dummy just looks at me. 'Me?' He says. 'I just come out
for a drive in the moonlight. But if I'd known there'd be a crowd like
this...' he says. And then he asks me, 'Is there any place I can turn
around and get out of this?'" As the Herald Tribune summed things up
in its story next morning, it "just looked as if everybody in
Manhattan who owned a motorcar had decided to drive out on Long Island
that evening".

The incident was unusual enough to make all the front pages next
morning, and because of this, many similar events, which might
otherwise have gone unnoticed, received attention. The proprietor of
the Aramis Theatre, on Eighth Avenue, reported that on several nights
in the recent past his auditorium had been practically empty, while on
others it had been jammed to suffocation. Lunchroom owners noted that
increasingly their patrons were developing a habit of making runs on
specific items; one day it would be roast shoulder of veal with pan
gravy that was ordered almost exclusively, while the next everyone
would be taking the Vienna loaf, and the roast veal went begging. A
man who ran a small notions store in Bayside revealed that over a
period of four days two hundred and seventy-four successive customers
had entered his shop and asked for a spool of pink thread.

These were news items that would ordinarily have gone into the papers
as fillers or in the sections reserved for oddities. Now, however,
they seemed to have a more serious significance. It was apparent at
last that something decidedly strange was happening to people's
habits, and it was as unsettling as those occasional moments on
excursion boats when the passengers are moved, all at once, to rush to
one side or the other of the vessel. It was not till one day in
December when, almost incredibly, the Twentieth Century Limited left
New York for Chicago with just three passengers aboard that business
leaders discovered how disastrous the new trend could be, too.

Until then, the New York Central, for instance, could operate
confidently on the assumption that although there might be several
thousand men in New York who had business relations in Chicago, on any
single day no more - and no less - than some hundreds of them would
have occasion to go there. The play producer could be sure that his
patronage would sort itself out and that roughly as many persons would
want to see the performance on Thursday as there had been on Tuesday
or Wednesday. Now they couldn't be sure of anything. The Law of
Averages had gone by the board, and if the effect on business promised
to be catastrophic, it was also singularly unnerving for the general
customer.

The lady starting downtown for a day of shopping, for example, could
never be sure whether she would find Macy's department store a
seething mob of other shoppers or a wilderness of empty, echoing
aisles and unoccupied salesgirls. And the uncertainty produced a
strange sort of jitteriness in the individual when faced with any
impulse to action. "Shall we do it or shan't we?" people kept asking
themselves, knowing that if they did do it, it might turn out that
thousands of other individuals had decided similarly; knowing, too,
that if they didn't, they might miss the one glorious chance of all
chances to have Jones Beach, say, practically to themselves. Business
languished, and a sort of desperate uncertainty rode everyone.

At this juncture, it was inevitable that Congress should be called on
for action. In fact, Congress called on itself, and it must be said
that it rose nobly to the occasion. A committee was appointed, drawn
from both Houses and headed by Senator J. Wing Slooper (R.), of
Indiana, and though after considerable investigation the committee was
forced reluctantly to conclude that there was no evidence of Communist
instigation, the unconscious subversiveness of the people's present
conduct was obvious at a glance. The problem was what to do about it.
You can't indict a whole nation, particularly on such vague grounds as
these were. But, as Senator Slooper boldly pointed out, "You can
control it," and in the end a system of re?ducation and reform was
decided upon, designed to lead people back to - again we quote Senator
Slooper - "the basic regularities, the homely averages of the American
way of life".

In the course of the committee's investigations, it had been
discovered, to everyone's dismay, that the Law of Averages had never
been incorporated into the body of federal jurisprudence, and though
the upholders of States' Rights rebelled violently, the oversight was
at once corrected, both by Constitutional amendment and by a law - the
Hills-Slooper Act - implementing it. According to the Act, people were
required to be average, and, as the simplest way of assuring it, they
were divided alphabetically and their permissible activities
catalogued accordingly. Thus, by the plan, a person whose name began
with "G," "N," or "U," for example, could attend the theatre only on
Tuesdays, and he could go to baseball games only on Thursdays, whereas
his visit to a haberdashery were confined to the hours between ten
o'clock and noon on Mondays.

The law, of course, had its disadvantages. It had a crippling effect
on theatre parties, among other social functions, and the cost of
enforcing it was unbelievably heavy. In the end, too, so many
amendments had to be added to it - such as the one permitting
gentlemen to take their fianc?es (if accredited) along with them to
various events and functions no matter what letter the said fianc?es
names began with - that the courts were frequently at a loss to
interpret it when confronted with violations.

In its way, though, the law did serve its purpose, for it did induce -
rather mechanically, it is true, but still adequately - a return to
that average existence that Senator Slooper desired. All, indeed,
would have been well if a year or so later disquieting reports had not
begun to seep in from the backwoods. It seemed that there, in what had
hitherto been considered to be marginal areas, a strange wave of
prosperity was making itself felt.

Tennessee mountaineers were buying Packard convertibles, and Sears,
Roebuck reported that in the Ozarks their sales of luxury items had
gone up nine hundred per cent. In the scrub sections of Vermont, men
who formerly had barely been able to scratch a living from their
rock-strewn acres were now sending their daughters to Europe and
ordering expensive cigars from New York. It appeared that the Law of
Diminishing Returns was going haywire, too.

[End of message]







Post#627 at 04-02-2005 12:37 AM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-02-2005, 12:37 AM #627
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Quote Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus
> Especially since no one would come to our rescue in that event -
> most other countries would instead join China, hoping for a piece
> out of our hide instead. Or else, if anyone did come to our
> rescue, it would be too little, too late, just as it was when
> Egypt tried to 'rescue' Assyria from the Medo-Babylonian Alliance
> in 609 BCE. As for Japan, I suspect that China has some long range
> plans for that country that, if anything, are even uglier than the
> ones they have for us (and with pretty @#*$ good reason!).
Who ever comes to anyone's rescue in war, unless it's in their own
interest? We didn't enter WW II until Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Imagine a scenario where we're at war with China, and they're somehow
winning. Then Russia or India would be afraid that after a China
victory, China would turn on them, so they would be motivated to ally
with us.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#628 at 04-02-2005 12:39 AM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-02-2005, 12:39 AM #628
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Dear Mike,

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
> This is simply a difference in views. I think you are wrong and
> you think I am wrong.
No, it's much deeper than a difference in views.

Nothing in your methodology would have predicted the 1929 crash. The
1929 crash is an anomaly to your methodology. Your methodology
neither predicts nor denies a 1929 crash.

The reason is that 1929 was a generational crash, which is
asynchronous to your methodology. But the reason is irrelevant.
What's important is that your methodology has nothing to say, one way
or the other, about the 1929 crash.

Similarly, your methodology has nothing whatsoever to say about
whether we're about to have another crash.

I give you a gold star for making a correct prediction in 2000:



And you have the right to use your methodology to predict what will
happen under the assumption that no generational crash will
occur.


But you have no right to claim that there won't be a generational
crash, because your methodology doesn't provide a clue.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#629 at 04-02-2005 09:13 AM by Prisoner 81591518 [at joined Mar 2003 #posts 2,460]
---
04-02-2005, 09:13 AM #629
Join Date
Mar 2003
Posts
2,460

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
Imagine a scenario where we're at war with China, and they're somehow winning. Then Russia or India would be afraid that after a China victory, China would turn on them, so they would be motivated to ally with us.
If that did happen, then I suspect that it would go much as did the Egyptian intervention during the Collapse of the Assyrian Empire - the Egyptians also hated the Assyrians with a cold passion (just like everyone else at the time), and by the time Egyptian national self-interest finally trumped that hatred, any help they could send was too little, too late - and only served to bring down Babylon's wrath upon them.







Post#630 at 04-02-2005 10:29 PM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-02-2005, 10:29 PM #630
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
> Imagine a scenario where we're at war with China, and they're
> somehow winning. Then Russia or India would be afraid that after a
> China victory, China would turn on them, so they would be
> motivated to ally with us.
Quote Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus
> If that did happen, then I suspect that it would go much as did
> the Egyptian intervention during the Collapse of the Assyrian
> Empire - the Egyptians also hated the Assyrians with a cold
> passion (just like everyone else at the time), and by the time
> Egyptian national self-interest finally trumped that hatred, any
> help they could send was too little, too late - and only served to
> bring down Babylon's wrath upon them.
I guess I agree with your reasoning, but the Russians and the Indians
don't really hate us, and in a war between China and America, they
would be much more afraid of China. Even the Chinese don't really
hate us, though they'll fight us for Taiwan.

When I talk about hatred, I'm talking about the Japanese hatred of
Americans and the German hatred of the French in the 1930s, or the
Korean and Chinese hatred of the Japanese today. Today, the most
potent hatred of America is from the Muslims, largely keyed to our
historic support of Israel. Arab views, in particular, are over 90%
unfavorable.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#631 at 04-02-2005 10:50 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
---
04-02-2005, 10:50 PM #631
Join Date
Mar 2005
Location
murrieta,california
Posts
653

John nice to see you. I have e-mailed you and got your responses from your website. As usual your insights are really interesting , so that I really don't have much in the way of objections. I am not certain however this 4T(or coming 4T ) is going to be a clach of civilizations really. Unless you think the Chinese are still a separate civ. It seems to me the Chinese are really just an offshoot now of western civ, as their overriding philosophy of governance is a western concept. (Communism.)
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







Post#632 at 04-02-2005 11:15 PM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-02-2005, 11:15 PM #632
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
John nice to see you. I have e-mailed you and got your responses from your website. As usual your insights are really interesting , so that I really don't have much in the way of objections. I am not certain however this 4T(or coming 4T ) is going to be a clach of civilizations really. Unless you think the Chinese are still a separate civ. It seems to me the Chinese are really just an offshoot now of western civ, as their overriding philosophy of governance is a western concept. (Communism.)
Good to see you.

The clash of civilizations won't be with China. As I've written on
my web site, China is very dangerous but it's falling apart at the
seams, and I expect China to collapse into a major civil war.

Because of some 60-year-old fatwa or something (I've tried to nail
this down, but failed), the population in Muslim countries has been
growing by 2-4% per year, creating a "youth bulge" in Muslim
countries. Today, with China sucking up every available grain of
wheat in the world, pushing up food prices, we're facing a "clash of
civilizations" world war, with near 100% mathematical certainty, but
it's primarily with the Muslim civilization, not the Chinese.

My expectation is that China will side with Pakistan and other Muslim
countries. India and Russia will side with the West. There'll be
billions of people on each side. It'll be messy.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#633 at 04-03-2005 10:39 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,501]
---
04-03-2005, 10:39 AM #633
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Kalamazoo MI
Posts
4,501

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
But you have no right to claim that there won't be a generational crash, because your methodology doesn't provide a clue.
Since when do I need a methodology to argue that an unproven phenomenon won't happen? I don't have to prove that yeti don't exist, it is up to those arguing the affirmative case to produce one.

The existence of a generational crash has not been proven. Therefore I don't have to prove that it won't happen, it is up to you to prove that it will. The most convincing evidence would be a demonstration, which you set up in early 2003 with a counterintuitive forecast that the Dow was going to go below 4000 in three years. Had this happened it would be strong evidence for the idea of a generational crash. So far it hasn't, so the idea is still unproven.

Before you fly off the handle, I am in the exact same boat as you are. My non-stock market forecasts are based on the Kondratiev cycle which has not been proven to exist in today's economy (and quitely possibly doesn't exist). In 2001 I forecast that a major decline in reduced price would happen soon. (Reduced price is a price index divided by stimulation, which is the sum of government debt and money supply divided by GDP).

This hasn't happened. Since 2001 commodity prices have risen as fast or faster than stimulation, preventing reduced price from falling further than it already had in 2001. What this means is oil and gold prices are way higher today than I expected them to be four years ago and the specific investment strategies I outlined in my third book have been irrelevant and will remain irrelevant unless those prices come down. I had planned to employ these strategies later in this decade and now probably won't be able to. I haven't found any replacement strategies and this likely means a delay in my retirement of several years--a real consequence. It also reduces the value of my paid cycle commentary, reducing the likelihood that I will continue to do this during my retirement.

I have studied why this failure has happened and have found it linked to certain subtle interest rate behavior that is supposed to happen shortly after the forecasted decline in reduced price. The behavior is complex, but it can be represented by a specific prediction: 10 year Treasury rates (now at about 4.5%) will not rise above 5.5%. Such a rise could easily happen. If it does it pretty much throws my conception of the K-cycle out the window. In this case, there is no longer any reason for me to hang on to the 18-year generation idea and that the crisis began in 2001. I will drop this position in favor of the orthodox one that we be 3T until ~2010. The future will be inflationary, not deflationary.

The Stock Cycle will still hold and all my work will amount to being a one-trick pony.

One the other hand, suppose two years from now the 10 year rate has not gotten close to 5.5%. Suppose a financial crisis in China causes a collapse in their demand for commodities (something you are forecasting I think). Then the reduced price will fall and all the pieces will fall into place for the K-cycle and my strategies might still work later in this decade (when I need them). These events will confirm the 18-year generation and establish (through the cycle linkages) that the crisis did start in 2001 (which you also believe). The future will be deflationary rather than inflationary although this deflation will be maniefest as a drop in reduced price rather than actual prices. I'll be able to retire on schedule (2009) and I'll likely be able to continue my paid hobby into retirement.







Post#634 at 04-03-2005 12:37 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
---
04-03-2005, 12:37 PM #634
Join Date
Mar 2005
Location
murrieta,california
Posts
653

Dammit John, every time I try to salvage an optimistic scenario ya blow me out of the water My question is why you think the Muslims would be first? On your own site you point out the DPRK and their similarity to the actions( at least in tone) to Germany. If you are right then, what will happen( most likely it seems to me but I could be an idiot) is that Korea will use its nukes to take out the U.S. military in the South. Okinawa, Tokyo, and lob a few at the west coast of America and then invade the South Korean Peninsula. ( It's what I would do if I were going to attack) This would have the effect of crippling our forces(Obliterating really)in the region and slow our counter attack while we take time over our casualties. China seeing as the U.S. wouldn't now be able to affect a credible defense would forcibly annex Taiwan during ths time. Only our sub fleet could attack in atimely manner and would be in danger of Chinese subs at the time. The middle east would be nearly forgotten in the meantime while we focus on two easy to target, technically sophisticated, and populous cultures. BTW I think China's domestic problems will ensure that they fight in order to "unify" the factions that are threatening the commie power base.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







Post#635 at 04-03-2005 06:28 PM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-03-2005, 06:28 PM #635
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
But you have no right to claim that there won't be a generational crash, because your methodology doesn't provide a clue.
Since when do I need a methodology to argue that an unproven phenomenon won't happen? I don't have to prove that yeti don't exist, it is up to those arguing the affirmative case to produce one.

The existence of a generational crash has not been proven. Therefore I don't have to prove that it won't happen, it is up to you to prove that it will. The most convincing evidence would be a demonstration, which you set up in early 2003 with a counterintuitive forecast that the Dow was going to go below 4000 in three years. Had this happened it would be strong evidence for the idea of a generational crash. So far it hasn't, so the idea is still unproven.

Before you fly off the handle, I am in the exact same boat as you are. My non-stock market forecasts are based on the Kondratiev cycle which has not been proven to exist in today's economy (and quitely possibly doesn't exist). In 2001 I forecast that a major decline in reduced price would happen soon. (Reduced price is a price index divided by stimulation, which is the sum of government debt and money supply divided by GDP).

This hasn't happened. Since 2001 commodity prices have risen as fast or faster than stimulation, preventing reduced price from falling further than it already had in 2001. What this means is oil and gold prices are way higher today than I expected them to be four years ago and the specific investment strategies I outlined in my third book have been irrelevant and will remain irrelevant unless those prices come down. I had planned to employ these strategies later in this decade and now probably won't be able to. I haven't found any replacement strategies and this likely means a delay in my retirement of several years--a real consequence. It also reduces the value of my paid cycle commentary, reducing the likelihood that I will continue to do this during my retirement.

I have studied why this failure has happened and have found it linked to certain subtle interest rate behavior that is supposed to happen shortly after the forecasted decline in reduced price. The behavior is complex, but it can be represented by a specific prediction: 10 year Treasury rates (now at about 4.5%) will not rise above 5.5%. Such a rise could easily happen. If it does it pretty much throws my conception of the K-cycle out the window. In this case, there is no longer any reason for me to hang on to the 18-year generation idea and that the crisis began in 2001. I will drop this position in favor of the orthodox one that we be 3T until ~2010. The future will be inflationary, not deflationary.

The Stock Cycle will still hold and all my work will amount to being a one-trick pony.

One the other hand, suppose two years from now the 10 year rate has not gotten close to 5.5%. Suppose a financial crisis in China causes a collapse in their demand for commodities (something you are forecasting I think). Then the reduced price will fall and all the pieces will fall into place for the K-cycle and my strategies might still work later in this decade (when I need them). These events will confirm the 18-year generation and establish (through the cycle linkages) that the crisis did start in 2001 (which you also believe). The future will be deflationary rather than inflationary although this deflation will be maniefest as a drop in reduced price rather than actual prices. I'll be able to retire on schedule (2009) and I'll likely be able to continue my paid hobby into retirement.

Dear Mike,

You've raised a number of interesting questions related to the
problem of "proving a negative." I'd like a couple more days to
think about it before responding.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#636 at 04-03-2005 06:30 PM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
---
04-03-2005, 06:30 PM #636
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Cambridge, MA
Posts
4,010

Dear Chris,

Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
> Dammit John, every time I try to salvage an optimistic scenario ya
> blow me out of the water
Oh yeah, you're looking for an optimist and you talk to ME. Good
move!! Is Norman Vincent Peale still around?

Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
> My question is why you think the Muslims would be first? On your
> own site you point out the DPRK and their similarity to the
> actions( at least in tone) to Germany. If you are right then, what
> will happen( most likely it seems to me but I could be an idiot)
> is that Korea will use its nukes to take out the U.S. military in
> the South. Okinawa, Tokyo, and lob a few at the west coast of
> America and then invade the South Korean Peninsula. ( It's what I
> would do if I were going to attack) This would have the effect of
> crippling our forces(Obliterating really)in the region and slow
> our counter attack while we take time over our casualties. China
> seeing as the U.S. wouldn't now be able to effect a credible
> defense would forcibly annex Taiwan during ths time. Only our sub
> fleet could attack in a timely manner and would be in danger of
> Chinese subs at the time. The middle east would be nearly
> forgotten in the meantime while we focus on two easy to target,
> technically sophisticated, and populous cultures. BTW I think
> China's domestic problems will ensure that they fight in order to
> "unify" the factions that are threatening the commie power base.
OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that this is one of your OPTIMISTIC
scenarios? I'd hate to see one of your pessimistic scenarios.

Actually, that's a fairly plausible scenario from the point of view
of China and Korea, except that we would respond much more vigorously
than you imply.

But you overlook the chain reaction effect. There'd be a worldwide
economic collapse, catapulting hundreds of millions of people into
poverty and starvation. With America and the world distracted by the
war in the North Pacific, peace efforts in the Caucasus, Kashmir and
the Mideast would collapse. For example, the West Bank is an
economic disaster zone, and war has been held off only because of
massive American aid to the Palestinians, which was doubled in the
last year; that situation would be altered soon. With the breakdown
in disease control, either SARS or the Avian Flu would spread out of
control, killing tens or hundreds of millions. Within months, or
perhaps at most a year or two, all of these regions would be at war,
and America and Europe would be involved in all of them.

Last year I wrote an article called "The Six Most Dangerous Regions
in the world today."
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/...i.danger041120

The point is that there are six regions of the world, all in
generational crisis periods, where any small regional war is likely
to spread into a major regional war that would pull in the United
States, and then would spread to a "clash of civilizations" world
war. According to my computations, the probability of war in one of
these regions the next 12 months is about 21%. If no war occurs, then
the probability of war goes up each year, to about 23% in 2010.

It's time for you to build your radiation-hardened anthrax-resistant
cellar, and stock it with canned goods and flu medicine.

Sincerely,

John

John J. Xenakis
E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com







Post#637 at 04-04-2005 02:26 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
---
04-04-2005, 02:26 PM #637
Join Date
Mar 2005
Location
murrieta,california
Posts
653

John that really is my optimistic scenario. I think you're right that the cascade effect will happen in the middle-east I just think that America will decide that China/Korea are more of a threat, and will put its resources there figuring if they can beat the 800 pound Gorilla then themiddle-east can be mopped up at our leisure. I didn't say our response wouldn't be vigouous it's just when I was in the service I saw first hand what we had over in Asia and the scenario would obliterate our capabilities in the short term. Just long enough to complete their goals of annexation. It would take the U.S.anywhere from 3-6 months, possibly as long as a year, to recover enough capability to counter attack.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







Post#638 at 04-04-2005 05:06 PM by jeffw [at Orange County, CA--dob 1961 joined Jul 2001 #posts 417]
---
04-04-2005, 05:06 PM #638
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Orange County, CA--dob 1961
Posts
417

Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
John that really is my optimistic scenario. I think you're right that the cascade effect will happen in the middle-east I just think that America will decide that China/Korea are more of a threat, and will put its resources there figuring if they can beat the 800 pound Gorilla then themiddle-east can be mopped up at our leisure. I didn't say our response wouldn't be vigouous it's just when I was in the service I saw first hand what we had over in Asia and the scenario would obliterate our capabilities in the short term. Just long enough to complete their goals of annexation. It would take the U.S.anywhere from 3-6 months, possibly as long as a year, to recover enough capability to counter attack.
You don't think Georgie would nuke 'em back for nuking us?
Jeff '61







Post#639 at 04-04-2005 08:41 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
---
04-04-2005, 08:41 PM #639
Join Date
Mar 2005
Location
murrieta,california
Posts
653

Try to stop a Boomer from releasing heavenly retribution, I dare ya. Showing restraint is not something they know how to do.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







Post#640 at 04-04-2005 08:43 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
---
04-04-2005, 08:43 PM #640
Join Date
Mar 2005
Location
murrieta,california
Posts
653

They would nuke DPRK but North Korea is preparing for that.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







Post#641 at 04-05-2005 04:25 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
---
04-05-2005, 04:25 PM #641
Join Date
Mar 2003
Location
Where the Northwest meets the Southwest
Posts
9,198

Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
Dear Sean,

First, let me apologize for the long delay in responding. I'm trying
to keep my head above water, and a lot of things are suffering.
No problem.

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
Second, the old tape drive controllers in my brain have, without my
being consciously aware, been doing linear searches through various
old tapes, looking for anything related to that information you
requested. They found something and have moved it into my brain's primary
storage, and then with a little googling I found the story. It's in
the next message.
I read the article. I don't know why you are bringing it up though. Things occasionally go haywire statistically. I understand that. Please elaborate on your point.

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
Quote Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons
> These are periods designated by S&H as "catalyst phases", what
> some of us call "cascades", and they have happened at least the
> past four times there was a 3T-to-4T transition in our particular
> saecular lineage. They are the periods where S&H's "self-igniting
> firecrackers" go off.

> These periods were tumultuous, and were so in a specific way:
> Institutional decay and deferred social problems coupled with a
> new generational dynamic led to an upheaval in the "outer world"
> -- much as there had been an "inner world" upheaval half a
> lifetime earlier in each case. And such outer world tumult has not
> occurred since 9/11. No cascading failure of our old institutional
> framework has occurred. Not yet.
I'm having a lot of difficulty with this, Sean, because I keep
getting the feeling that you're taking certain TFT excerpts too
literally, downplaying the importance of other parts, and not
interpreting events flexibly enough.
Please explain why the points I made in the last post are confusing or invalid, not just the quote above.

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
I would also point out that if S&H are not 100% certain whether this
is a 3T or 4T, then it's not likely that other people are going to
come to a definitive conclusion.
I am not saying I am making a definitive conclusion, you are. I am making the argument that we are still 3T but I am not being definitive about it. I am open to the possibility that 9/11 was the trigger, I just strongly lean in the direction that it wasn't. You are the one saying definitively that the 4T started on 9/11/01 and mocking any arguments otherwise. I am defending the possibility that 9/11 was not the trigger.

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
Maybe it's all a matter of "feelings." For some reason, the jailing
of Muslims after 9/11 is enormously important to me and unimportant
to you, while the equivocation in Fallujah is enormously important to
you, but unimportant to me. I don't know why that is, but it's those
feelings that evidently are leading to our opposing conclusions.
First off, I don't recall the jailing of Muslims to be a massive thing after 9/11 except in the left-wing media. How many were jailed, how many without habeas corpus, and where does the information come from?

Second, what of my point that we have had a very similar facsimile to all of this in the 1917-1920 period?

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
All I can tell you, Sean, is that I was overwhelmed by the dramatic
changes in American society following 9/11. I've said these before,
but it's worthwhile to list these again:
  • (*) After 9/11, I was absolutely astounded that we were locking
    up Muslims without a trial. Such a thing would have been COMPLETELY
    IMPOSSIBLE before 9/11. This kind of thing was predicted by S&H, and
    was a major factor in convincing me of the validity of TFT.
  • Outside of the Gitmo Boys and two cases involving US citizens (Padilla and that Saudi fellow) I am not aware of what you're talking about. Outside of that, I have only heard unsubstantiated stories. Did the MSM miss that, even the CNN you describe as "liberal" on your website?

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
  • (*) After 9/11, a number of Senators were expressing outrage that
    the FBI and the CIA hadn't been comparing notes. I don't know if you
    remember anything about the controversies involving the Church
    commission in the 70s, but comparing notes was loudly and screamingly
    considered to be anathema by the antiwar people in the 70s, on the
    ground that it should be possible for an American to go abroad and
    take part in a pro-Communist demonstration, and then come home and
    commit a crime, and no one should know that the same person was
    involved in both. So, early in 2002, when I heard THE SAME SENATORS
    start loudly screaming that the FBI and CIA should have been
    comparing notes, it had the effect of (a) further convinced me, if
    any further convincing were needed, that politicians are generally
    total morons, and less ethical than used car salesmen; and (b) that
    society had massively changed in a way predicted by S&H (national
    unity over individual rights).
That movement is surely occuring, but does that mean that Guilliani's clean up of NY, which required a similar move, was a 4T sign?? I don't think the 4T started in the 90's.

Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
  • (*) The antiwar movement quickly collapsed. I was shocked when
    CNN correspondent Christiane Amanpour, who had always expressed
    varying levels of anti-Americanism, suddenly started using the
    pronoun "we" instead of "they" when referring to Americans.
  • Though I see your point, I don't think the existence or lack of a antiwar movement necessarily means anything. We didn't have a large antiwar movement during the Gulf War, yet that was undeniably 3T. There was a large antiwar movement against this current Iraq War in western Europe yet you claim they are 4T. And there was strong pacifist sentiments in this country in the 1930's during the last 4T.

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
  • (*) The so-called "gender gap" on defense issues reversed sharply
    after 9/11. In the 1990s, national security was a very low priority
    for women. That's why any military actions that occurred in the 90s
    ended quickly, and it's also why the 1991 Gulf War ended without
    capturing Saddam. By January, 2002, the gender gap had completely
    reversed, and far more women than men said that bolstering national
    security was a top priority.
  • So we didn't go on to Baghdad in 1991 because of women? If that's what you're saying it's a crock. Did I misunderstand you?

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
    Women have changed their minds on other
    issues as well: There was the backlash against Janet Jackson in the
    Super Bowl; there's the research that says that college educated
    women are choosing in droves to stay home with the kids rather than
    work. Women are returning to gender-specific roles, as S&H
    predicted.
    The Janet Jackson thing is a good point and if it's not a 4T sign then it's certainly a sign that society is readying itself. Boomers have been puritanical on this stuff for 20 years now, but this smack of elder wave Xers joining in. That's new.

    As for women changing their lifestyles "in droves", I don't see it in the data and I don't see it anecdotally. I do agree that a change has been in the works, and has been for some time, but I have not been presented with data showing the movement is yet huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
    These are all enormous changes, and they're all of the type predicted
    by S&H. TFT p. 256 says, "A Crisis era begins with a catalist
    -- a startling event (or sequence of events) that produces a sudden
    shift in mood."

    To me there's no simply no question about it, notwithstanding
    Fallujah -- 9/11 was a startling event that produced a sudden shift
    in mood. As I said, the shift in mood was sudden and massive.
    So was our entry into WWI. The next three year period was extraordinary, and as I've shown, shows amazing parallels to the past three years. But it was not a 4T shift.

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
    Does this fit the TFT model? Yes, of course it does. In fact, look
    at the description of the approach to the Civil War (TFT 261-262):
    The 4T began with John Brown's raid, but "Brown's uprising did not
    polarize opinion as much as his aging backers had hoped. Afterward,
    the nation settled back into the sullen brooding for which the 1850s
    were notorious." That kind of sullen brooding describes America's
    mood for the last year or two.

    So America since 9/11 fits quite well into the S&H's description of
    the Civil War following Brown's raid.
    Said "sullen brooding" (an excellent quote BTW) lasted 14 months. Then South Carolina seceded and things went haywire. By the 21 month mark many thousands were dying. It has been 43 months since 9/11. Our institutional order as founded in the 30's and 40's is not collapsing. The "old civic order [does] not seem ruined beyond repair. People [do not] feel like a magnet has passed over society's disk drive, blanking out the social contract" [T4T, p. 275]. This was the case however in 1929-1933, 1859-1861, 1773-1776, 1675-1677, but has NOT been the case 2001-2004.

    You say there has been a qualitative change since 9/11. I agree. There has been a ratcheting up of political and economic tension and a subsequent rise in social anxiety. As S&H said "the mood of the early Oh-Oh's will be much like today's [c. 1996], except a lot more jittery [emphasis mine] . . . The political party in power will stress the ample good news and insist that things have never been better - but the party out of power (and any group that senses it is losing the Culture Wars) will warn against, and show signs of welcoming, a catastrophe on hte horizon" [T4T, pp. 251-52].

    Look at the cascade periods above, those were years the tension broke and jittery anxiety turned to abject fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
    And it's not just America. On my web site I've been documenting
    changes predicted by S&H in countries all over the world. Just
    yesterday in my web log I did a piece on France passing a law making
    it mandatory to learn La Marseillaise in school. The Dutch
    exhibited massive changes in mood when Theo van Gogh was
    assassinated. Putin is aggregating more and more power to himself.
    So is Musharraf. China, North Korea and Taiwan are all becoming
    increasingly confrontational. These are all the things that S&H
    predicts for 4T periods.
    There is no doubt that the institutional order established in the last 4T is fraying badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
    In summary, my position is this:
    • (*) The evidence supporting 4T is enormous, and outweighs by an
      order of magnitude the evidence (like Fallujah) supporting 3T.
    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis

    In my opinion, this is overwhelming evidence of a 4T. You can
    discount this evidence if you want, but I've been immersed in this
    stuff now for 3 years, and I'm totally convinced.
    If 9/11 was the trigger/catalyst, which it may have been, then it has initiated a very strange catalyst phase (cascade) as the past 3.5 years have not tracked with the past four in the American experience (that's not to say that the past four American cascades are necessarily our only model).

    John, one more thing that has me on the 3T side of the equation is the credit bubble. S&H talk about an ethos that established itself in the 2T and has been operating ever since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strauss & Howe
    People came to believe that the more they got in touch with their inner desires, the more creatively the could consume what they produced -- which would not only lend the cornucopia a higher purpose but also keep it going [T4T, p. 172]
    This has been the one constant underlying theme of the whole "Long Boom" that established itself at the end of the last 2T and has been the economic basis in the 3T ever since. To my mind, any saecular mood change will require this ethos to end. The economic comeuppance that you predict I also see coming (though I am not nearly as learned as you, Mike, or Kurt on economics) and I see it as part and parcel to the end of the 3T mood.
    Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
    THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
    See T4T, p. 253.







    Post#642 at 04-05-2005 04:37 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 04:37 PM #642
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Where the Northwest meets the Southwest
    Posts
    9,198

    Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

    Quote Originally Posted by John J. Xenakis
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons
    > BTW, how does my take on the cycle of institutional decay and
    > rebirth (previous posts above) square with your "old crusty
    > bureaucracy" theory?
    I looked through your last few messages, and I'm not sure what you're
    referring to. Could you summarize your position?
    John, I was referring to these quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons
    An orthodox (saecularist) view would be that the foundations of a new institutional order are founded in a 4T, built upon in the following 1T, crystalized in the 2T, and neglected, if not even undermined, in the 3T. Moreover, by the end of a 3T, the overripe institutional order in question is even maladapted for the new cultural/values regime born of the 2T and 3T, and what's more, built around a values regime itself founded a century earlier. So you have both institutional dilapidation and institutional-cultural dissonance. This makes things ripe for a secular crisis and institutional upheaval . . .

    During 4T's the Social Order set in place for decades by the previous cycle is greatly weakened, dysfunctional and comes under attack. The basis (foundation) for a new social order is constructed during the 4T and built upon during the subsequent 1T. By the 1T/2T boundary the social order is no longer all that malleable and finishes crystalizing, no longer able to adapt to new circumstance that well, be they technological, cultural, or what-have-you. The Social Order becomes less well-adapted and more dysfunctional during the course of the 2T and 3T until we find ourselves full circle at the 3T/4T boundary.

    The opposite for the "values regime". But here I would agree that there is a crucial difference. After a new Values Regime implants during a 2T, it is further constructed and built upon during a 3T. But there won't be full coherence until the opening of a 4T, when the regime finally consolidates and crystalizes, becoming brittle itself by the 1T/2T boundary. The problem is that on at least one occasion in our past, that consolidation was not unitary leading to a Civil War. Two Values Regimes congealed, and that set the stage for how that 4T and connected Social Order rebirth was going to play out.
    Again, please let me know how this jells with your Crusty Bureaucracy theory.
    Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
    THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
    See T4T, p. 253.







    Post#643 at 04-05-2005 04:44 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 04:44 PM #643
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    murrieta,california
    Posts
    653

    Peter, I think that we're in a jiitery 3T as well, poised on the brink of a truly destructive 4T. On my earlier posts we discuss the nuclear option and I think at first restraint will be used to re-take the peninsula in order to establish a friendly government. Nukes will be used but on the tactical model rather than the strategic level. Also, this will be so that China is left alone until we're ready for her. As the war escalates and Noerth Korea continues to send their big missles at us the mood will shift and the "Big Guns" will come out.
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







    Post#644 at 04-05-2005 05:30 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 05:30 PM #644
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Where the Northwest meets the Southwest
    Posts
    9,198

    Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
    Peter, I think that we're in a jiitery 3T as well, poised on the brink of a truly destructive 4T. On my earlier posts we discuss the nuclear option and I think at first restraint will be used to re-take the peninsula in order to establish a friendly government. Nukes will be used but on the tactical model rather than the strategic level. Also, this will be so that China is left alone until we're ready for her. As the war escalates and Noerth Korea continues to send their big missles at us the mood will shift and the "Big Guns" will come out.
    Let's hope you are wrong, esp. considering we are both in California. :shock:
    Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
    THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
    See T4T, p. 253.







    Post#645 at 04-05-2005 05:32 PM by spudzill [at murrieta,california joined Mar 2005 #posts 653]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 05:32 PM #645
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    murrieta,california
    Posts
    653

    I always operate on the "worst case scenario" and far too often I'm right.
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Hunter S. Thompson







    Post#646 at 04-05-2005 07:31 PM by Milo [at The Lands Beyond joined Aug 2004 #posts 926]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 07:31 PM #646
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    The Lands Beyond
    Posts
    926

    I agree with points made by both John and Peter. On the one hand, I'm not sure how the events of 9/11 couldn't be described as a 4t catalyst, and all that has happened subsequently - a war on two fronts, the rollback of civil liberties and free speech, the emergence of strange alliacnes, a deep sense in the country that the world we have known in recent decades is passing, etc - seems distinctly 4t in character. On other hand, the so-called war on terror may well only be one dimension of this fourth turning in much the same way that the last 4t had two major phases (the depression and the war). It looks increasingly like we may be on the precipice of a global economic meltdown. It looks increasingly like we could be on the precipice of a major resource (read: oil) crisis. And the culture wars seem destined to not subside during this 4t meaning possibly a constitutional crisis sometime in the next twenty years.

    Also, as has been pointed out by many people in these parts (not to mention the authors) there is in some sense historical "progress" so nobody should assume that a "return to traditional gender roles" means quite the same thing it did in the 1930s. I have family and friends from coast to coast - liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, evangelical, Catholic, secular - and I can't think of a single woman (married or not, with children or not, including the conservative evangelicals in my extended family) who doesn't work at least part time, and usually full time outside the home. Women will continue to go to college and graduate school in large numbers, and continue to be a significant part of our political, economic, and cultural life, and many will continue to remain unmarried and or divorced.

    And to the extent that a possible economic crisis in the coming years makes a return to more collective living arrangements necessary for some (or many) we may find that in a number of cases it doesn't mean a return to traditional marriage and extended families living together, but other types of chosen arrangements. There was an article yesterday in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...005Apr4_2.html) about single parents choosing to live together to share the burden of taking care of themselves and their kids but who are not romantically involved. The burden of taxation that xers in particular will face as boomers begin to collect entitlements is likely to be high, if not staggering, and coupled with the ill preparedness of many boomers for their own later years, it seems reasonable to predict that more than a few Americans - both young and old - will be forced to make some difficult decisions about how and where they live their lives. The return of more extended families cohabiting seems likely, but we shouldn't underestimate the extent to which the "culture of choice" is now engrained in the American psyche, and quite a few people will I think choose to make collective living arrangements (as they become more practical and even necessary in some cases) based not on biological ties, but other types of connections - with friends or others who share their values, interests, etc.
    "Hell is other people." Jean Paul Sartre

    "I called on hate to give me my life / and he came on his black horse, obsidian knife" Kristin Hersh







    Post#647 at 04-05-2005 09:29 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 09:29 PM #647
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
    Posts
    16,709

    Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
    Peter, I think that we're in a jiitery 3T as well, poised on the brink of a truly destructive 4T. On my earlier posts we discuss the nuclear option and I think at first restraint will be used to re-take the peninsula in order to establish a friendly government. Nukes will be used but on the tactical model rather than the strategic level. Also, this will be so that China is left alone until we're ready for her. As the war escalates and North Korea continues to send their big missles at us the mood will shift and the "Big Guns" will come out.
    Reality check: Current and recent US defense spending accounts for over 50% of the entire world's defense expenditures. We have extra everything, and every contry in the world knows this. Any attack on the US that's strategic, nuclear or otherwise, will involve a retaliation of stellar proportions - and I use the word 'stellar' in all its meanings.

    IMO, I'd look more toward asymmetrical war, if any, and a collapsing economy.
    Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
    Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







    Post#648 at 04-05-2005 10:25 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
    ---
    04-05-2005, 10:25 PM #648
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Where the Northwest meets the Southwest
    Posts
    9,198

    Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
    Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
    Peter, I think that we're in a jiitery 3T as well, poised on the brink of a truly destructive 4T. On my earlier posts we discuss the nuclear option and I think at first restraint will be used to re-take the peninsula in order to establish a friendly government. Nukes will be used but on the tactical model rather than the strategic level. Also, this will be so that China is left alone until we're ready for her. As the war escalates and North Korea continues to send their big missles at us the mood will shift and the "Big Guns" will come out.
    Reality check: Current and recent US defense spending accounts for over 50% of the entire world's defense expenditures. We have extra everything, and every contry in the world knows this. Any attack on the US that's strategic, nuclear or otherwise, will involve a retaliation of stellar proportions - and I use the word 'stellar' in all its meanings.

    IMO, I'd look more toward asymmetrical war, if any, and a collapsing economy.
    Mr. H,

    I agree, but remember that Kim is nuts and sometimes cooler heads do not prevail, esp. when Dictator Nutjob surrounds himself with yesmen and doesn't have a full appreciation for reality. I mean, just look at Bush, and multiply by 10 (okay, maybe 5 :wink: ).
    Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
    THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
    See T4T, p. 253.







    Post#649 at 04-06-2005 12:49 AM by salsabob [at Washington DC joined Jan 2005 #posts 746]
    ---
    04-06-2005, 12:49 AM #649
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    746

    Quote Originally Posted by spudzill
    then invade the South Korean Peninsula. ( It's what I would do if I were going to attack) This would have the effect of crippling our forces(Obliterating really)in the region and slow our counter attack while we take time over our casualties.
    In the event of a national emergency, a series of seven different alert Conditions (LERTCONs) can be called. The 7 LERTCONs are broken down into 5 Defense Conditions (DEFCONs) and 2 Emergency Conditions (EMERGCONs). EMERGCONs are national level reactions in response to ICBM (missiles in the air) attack. By definition, other forces go to DEFCON 1 during an EMERGCON for which there are two -
    DEFENSE EMERGENCY: Major attack upon U.S. forces overseas, or allied forces in any area, and is confirmed either by the commander of a unified or specified command or higher authority or an overt attack of any type is made upon the United States and is confirmed by the commander of a unified or specified command or higher authority.
    AIR DEFENSE EMERGENCY: Air defense emergency is an emergency condition, declared by the Commander in Chief, North American Aerospace Defense Command. It indicates that attack upon the continental United States, Canada, or US installations in Greenland by hostile aircraft or missiles is considered probable, is imminent, or is taking place.

    Please note that "specified command" provides launch authority to commanders of certain SSBNs
    (Ballistic Missile Submarines), under specific scenarios related to the combination of signals of near- ground launches indicating targeting of US homeland or certain allied countries and the desire to avoid further enemy launches.

    The US SSBNs are of the Ohio Class, each readied with 24 Tridents that are MIRV'd with 8-12 re-entry vehicles (RVs) (Start 1 limits to 8 ). Each RV carriers either a WT76 100 kT yield warhead or the WT88 475 kT yield warhead. Military historians estimate that one such equipped SSBN is capable of unleashing a much greater level of kinetic energy than that of all ammunition and weapons used in all previous wars, combined.

    US has 18 SSBNs constantly on patrol, primarily in continental US or Canadian territorial waters based between Kings Bay, Georgia, and Bangor, Washington. These SSBNs are deployed in a manner such that their payloads can reach any site in the Northern Hemisphere and most of the Southern Hemisphere; once the command is obtained, re-targeting can be within minutes; most strategic targets reached in under . A classified number of SSBNs are deployed in certain theater waters and non-territorial off-shore strategic locations. Launch-to-target elapse times are considerably shorter.

    Bottom line, within 10 minutes of a hostile launch from DPRK towards the US, major US forces, or certain allied countries, most of DPRK would become uninhabitable for the next 20,000 years; that would be a certainty within 20 minutes.

    Of particular note, standard EMERGCON protocols would indicate that such a response would likely not come from an immediate decision by the Commander-in-Chief, but by a field command.

    Further DPRK's testing of missle launches might pose a problem.
    "Che l'uomo il suo destin fugge di raro [For rarely man escapes his destiny]" - Ludovico Ariosto







    Post#650 at 04-16-2005 11:53 AM by John J. Xenakis [at Cambridge, MA joined May 2003 #posts 4,010]
    ---
    04-16-2005, 11:53 AM #650
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    4,010

    Re: Mike Alexander's P/R methodology

    Dear Mike,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
    > Since when do I need a methodology to argue that an unproven
    > phenomenon won't happen? I don't have to prove that yeti don't
    > exist, it is up to those arguing the affirmative case to produce
    > one.

    > The existence of a generational crash has not been proven.
    > Therefore I don't have to prove that it won't happen, it is up to
    > you to prove that it will.
    Of course you're right that you don't need a methodology to argue
    that there won't be a generational financial crisis. You can just
    dismiss the idea as unproven, as you suggest. But if you DO choose
    to use a methodology, then it's reasonable for me to insist that the
    methodology be valid for that purpose. And keep in mind that this
    whole forum is largely devoted to arguing about unproven phenomena.

    Obviously if you want to argue that my prediction of a generational
    crash is wrong, you could simply argue that my reasoning is wrong.
    But what you've been doing is giving an independent argument that the
    generational crash won't happen.

    This gives rise to the question of how you prove a negative. It's
    kind of a clich? that "you can't prove a negative," but in fact we
    try to do it all the time. Since this forum has to do with history,
    the way to do it would be through historical analogy.

    Here are some examples of arguments that I've used to "prove a
    negative":
    • (*) Someone told me I was crazy and that my book was dangerous
      because it could start a war.

      In wanting to prove a negative, I didn't want to attempt to prove
      that I wasn't crazy, because I probably am crazy. But I did want to
      argue against the claim that my book could start a war.

      My argument was simply to say: Give me an example in history where a
      book has caused a war. Lacking any such example, it's reasonable for
      me to claim that history "proves" the negative - proves that my book
      will not cause a war.
    • (*) In discussing super-intelligent computers and the Singularity
      in this forum, a couple of people have argued that the upcoming world
      war would destroy civilization so much that technology advancement
      would be halted, and so the Singularity would not occur. The
      counter-argument was to ask for a time in history when a war
      did such a thing.
    • (*) Getting into a more complex situation, I was responding to the
      argument that Al Gore would not have invaded Iraq if he had become
      President. In this case, a historical analogy was used to argue a
      negative position. My response was to say that all of Gore's words
      and actions indicate that he fully supported such an invasion, and so
      there was no historical basis to conclude that he would not have
      invaded.

      This was similar to my objection over using the Stock Cycles
      methodology to argue that there won't be a generational financial
      crisis. Since the methodology fails to predict the 1930s crisis,
      then there's no historical basis to conclude that a failure to
      predict a similar crisis today would mean that there wouldn't be such
      a crisis.


    Since I'm on the subject of proving a negative, this issue comes up
    often in discussions of whether God does or does not exist. It's
    worth taking a moment in this context to illustrate additional
    arguments for "proving a negative."

    I said before that you can argue a negative of a claim by simply
    arguing against the reasons that support the claim. This is
    basically unsatisfying, since it's such a defensive approach.

    Sometimes you prove a negative more proactively by turning the
    arguments that support the claim against themselves, so that you get a
    proof of the negative that's roughly equivalent to the proof of the
    original claim. This technique can be used to argue against the
    proofs that God exists:
    • (*) The first cause argument says that there everything
      that exists needs a cause, and so there must be a first cause, which
      can only be God. The response is that by the argument's assumptions,
      God must have a cause, which leads to a logical contradiction, and
      proves that God does not exist.
    • (*) The complexity argument says that the universe is far

      too complex to have evolved without divine intervention, proving that
      God must exist. A sub-argument is that tens of thousands of
      evolution researchers have written thousands of books attempting to
      explain in detail exactly how life evolved, and have all failed. The
      response is that the universe is far too complex for any being to have
      created it, and therefore God does not exist. The response to the
      sub-argument is that tens of thousands of religious scholars have
      failed to explain in detail exactly how God created life, except to
      say "We don't know."
    • (*) The religious miracle argument says that miracles
      occur, and the miracles cannot be explained by ordinary natural
      phenomena, and so God must exist. You can use a response similar to
      that for the complexity argument, but for this there's a more
      interesting response: Miracles occur in all religions, but religions
      contradict each other. Therefore, at most one religion can be
      correct, and all the others must be wrong. Furthermore, the one
      remaining cannot be one that denies the existence of another
      religion's gods. Since Islam denies Jesus (as a God) and
      Christianity denies Allah (and his prophet Mohammed), the religious
      miracle argument actually proves that both Christianity and Islam are
      wrong.
    • (*) (There's also an ontological proof that God exists. It
      says that since the human mind has a word for "God," then God must
      exist. The response to that argument is just to point out that it
      doesn't make sense.)


    So those are all the ways I can think of right now to prove a
    negative, and of course there are many, many possible variations of
    each of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
    > The most convincing evidence would be a demonstration, which you
    > set up in early 2003 with a counterintuitive forecast that the Dow
    > was going to go below 4000 in three years. Had this happened it
    > would be strong evidence for the idea of a generational crash. So
    > far it hasn't, so the idea is still unproven.
    Well, you keep saying this, and I mentioned the 2006-2007 time frame,
    and I would note that it isn't 2006 or 2007 yet.

    You know Mike, the world situation is deteriorating so rapidly these
    days that I don't really want to change that prediction. The world
    financial status is getting increasingly unstable, and the North
    Pacific is very close to a major regional war, as far as I can tell,
    that would create a domino effect leading to a financial crisis at
    the very least. I have the feeling that this is all going to happen
    this year. However, this is just a "feeling," not a methodological
    prediction.

    I would add that with stock values having falled 4% in the last week,
    you should be concerned that "something" may be happening. At the
    very least, the stock market is extremely volatile in a way that, I'm
    told, has typically preceded major stock market corrections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
    > Before you fly off the handle, I am in the exact same boat as you
    > are. My non-stock market forecasts are based on the Kondratiev
    > cycle which has not been proven to exist in today's economy (and
    > quitely possibly doesn't exist). In 2001 I forecast that a major
    > decline in reduced price would happen soon. (Reduced price is a
    > price index divided by stimulation, which is the sum of government
    > debt and money supply divided by GDP).
    Well, Mike, I've never looked at reduced price, but I'm quite certain
    that Kondratiev cycles exist, have existed for at least a millennium
    or two, and exist in today's economy. I've said this before, but
    they're valid only if you analyze K-cycles by treating generational
    crashes as a separate, independent data series. I wish I could
    convince you to do the analysis in that light, and analyze K-cycles
    after subtracting out the effects of the five generational financial
    crises that I've listed before, starting with Tulipomania.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
    > This hasn't happened. Since 2001 commodity prices have risen as
    > fast or faster than stimulation, preventing reduced price from
    > falling further than it already had in 2001. What this means is
    > oil and gold prices are way higher today than I expected them to
    > be four years ago and the specific investment strategies I
    > outlined in my third book have been irrelevant and will remain
    > irrelevant unless those prices come down. I had planned to employ
    > these strategies later in this decade and now probably won't be
    > able to. I haven't found any replacement strategies and this
    > likely means a delay in my retirement of several years--a real
    > consequence. It also reduces the value of my paid cycle
    > commentary, reducing the likelihood that I will continue to do
    > this during my retirement.
    Commodity prices have been going up because China has been sucking up
    every bit of food, enery and metal available in the world. It's hard
    for me to see how you would have expected a methodology based on
    Western financial cycles to have predicted the effect of China, so
    your methodology may still be correct in some broader sense.

    There's a larger point here, Mike. You reminded me that I've had to
    change the prediction I made in 2003, and you're saying that your
    prediction is also failing. The reason is the same in both cases:
    The American economy is no longer self-contained. I didn't expect
    the stock market to return to Dow 11000 because I didn't foresee a
    new stock market bubble caused by China's and Japan's huge purchases
    of Treasury bonds. You didn't expect commodity prices to go up
    because you didn't foresee China's huge purchases of everything in
    sight.

    My addled mind doesn't remember whether I've already mentioned the
    following point in this forum, so I'll assume I haven't.

    As I've written at length on my web site, Alan Greenspan has also
    repudiated his own reasoning in handling the 1990s stock market
    bubble, and he's reassessed his view of the market today. His
    statements have been getting increasingly alarming during the last
    year, and in January he completely reversed himself on his previous
    reasoning, and says that the "international economic environment [has]
    little relevant historical precedent." Other analysts are expecting a
    major stock market correction in the summer or fall.
    http://www.generationaldynamics.com/...reenspan050206
    http://www.generationaldynamics.com/...weblog#e050407

    I think the fact that Greenspan has so thoroughly repudiated his
    previous reasoning is a remarkable fact, and would be more widely
    commented on if investors and journalists weren't so giddy.

    The point I'm making is that a lot of things have gone out the window
    because the American economy is no longer self-contained. We're now
    at the mercy of the world economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
    > I have studied why this failure has happened and have found it
    > linked to certain subtle interest rate behavior that is supposed
    > to happen shortly after the forecasted decline in reduced price.
    > The behavior is complex, but it can be represented by a specific
    > prediction: 10 year Treasury rates (now at about 4.5%) will not
    > rise above 5.5%. Such a rise could easily happen. If it does it
    > pretty much throws my conception of the K-cycle out the window. In
    > this case, there is no longer any reason for me to hang on to the
    > 18-year generation idea and that the crisis began in 2001. I will
    > drop this position in favor of the orthodox one that we be 3T
    > until ~2010. The future will be inflationary, not deflationary.
    I have a different analysis of this situation.

    I agree that 10-year Treasury rates are going to rise. The reason
    they're so low is because central banks in China, Japan and other
    countries have been buying them in huge quantities, pushing up
    demand, pushing up their prices, pushing down their yields. That
    situation can't continue much longer, so 10 year T bill prices will
    fall and yields will sharply increase. (This is all tied in to the
    financial crisis.) However, this doesn't mean that the future will be
    inflationary, just as it wasn't in the 1930s. Even if China floods
    the market with 10-year T bills, 10-year bonds aren't the same as
    money. I expect the Fed to use short-term rates to keep the dollar
    strong, even during war and crisis, and this will produce deflation.
    http://www.generationaldynamics.com/...10.i.fed050324

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
    > The Stock Cycle will still hold and all my work will amount to
    > being a one-trick pony.

    > One the other hand, suppose two years from now the 10 year rate
    > has not gotten close to 5.5%. Suppose a financial crisis in China
    > causes a collapse in their demand for commodities (something you
    > are forecasting I think). Then the reduced price will fall and all
    > the pieces will fall into place for the K-cycle and my strategies
    > might still work later in this decade (when I need them). These
    > events will confirm the 18-year generation and establish (through
    > the cycle linkages) that the crisis did start in 2001 (which you
    > also believe). The future will be deflationary rather than
    > inflationary although this deflation will be maniefest as a drop
    > in reduced price rather than actual prices. I'll be able to retire
    > on schedule (2009) and I'll likely be able to continue my paid
    > hobby into retirement.
    If there's a crisis in China (which I do indeed forecast), then
    they'll stop buying commodities, so commodity prices will go down.
    But they'll also stop buying T-bills, and may even dump their
    existing $600M worth of T-bills on the market. They won't get too
    many buyers, but they'll depress the prices, as I said, and so yields
    will rise. So I expect prices of both commodities and ten year bills
    to fall when there's a crisis in China. (Not to mention a civil war,
    a war over Taiwan, etc.)

    Closing the loop on the financial crisis, I've provided three
    different "proofs," all using historical analogies, that we're headed
    for a financial crisis. One is an exponential growth argument, one
    is a price/earnings ratio argument, and one is a generational
    argument. None of these arguments has come anywhere close to being
    refuted (and come to think of it, I believe you're the only person
    who's even tried). Furthermore, my model is the ONLY one that
    explains why the stock market bubble began in 1995, as opposed to
    1990 or 2000, something that provides indirect support of its
    validity. That's not a proof with mathematical certainty, but it's as
    close to mathematical certainty as you can get using historical
    analogies.

    Sincerely,

    John

    John J. Xenakis
    E-mail: john@GenerationalDynamics.com
    Web site: http://www.GenerationalDynamics.com
    -----------------------------------------