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Thread: Will Bush cave to the insurgents? - Page 3







Post#51 at 01-16-2005 11:12 PM by Devils Advocate [at joined Nov 2004 #posts 1,834]
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01-16-2005, 11:12 PM #51
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Re: The War Unwinnable on the Homefront

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Hanson then argues that war is simply a messy business:
  • The Follies of World War II
    Second, our very success creates ever increasing expectations of perfection for a postmodern America used to instant gratification. We now look back in awe at World War II, the model of military success, in which within four years an unprepared United States won two global wars, at sea, on the ground, and in the air, in three continents against Japan, Italy, and Germany, and supplied both England and the Soviet Union. But our forefathers experienced disaster after disaster in a tale of heartbreak, almost as inglorious as the Korean mess or Vietnam tragedy. And they did things to win we perhaps claim we would now not: Shoot German prisoners in the Bulge, firebomb Axis cities, drop the bomb ? almost anything to stop fascists from slaughtering even more millions of innocents.

    Our armored vehicles were deathtraps and only improved days before the surrender. American torpedoes were often duds. Unescorted daylight bombing proved a disaster, but continued. Amphibious assaults like Anzio and Tarawa were bloodbaths and emblematic of terrible planning and command. The recapture of Manila was clumsy and far too costly. Okinawa was the worst of all operations, and yet was begun just over fourth months before the surrender ? without any planning for Kamikazes who were shortly to kill 5,000 American sailors. Patton, the one general that could have ended the western war in 1944, was relieved and then subordinated to an auxiliary position with near fatal results for the drive from Normandy; mediocrities like Mark Clark flourished and were promoted. Admiral King resisted the life-saving convoy system and unnecessarily sacrificed merchant ships; while Bull Halsey almost lost his unprepared fleet to a storm.

    The war's aftermath seemed worse, to be overseen by an untried president who was considered an abject lightweight. Not-so-quite collateral damage had ruined entire cities. Europe nearly starved in winter 1945-6. Millions were on the road in mass exoduses. After spending billions to destroy Nazi Germany we had to spend billions more to rebuild it ? and repair the devastation it had wrought on its neighbors. Our so-called partisan friends in Yugoslavia and Greece turned out to be hard-core Communist killers. Soon enough we learned that the guerrillas in the mountains of Europe whom we had idolized, in fact, fought as much for Communism as against fascism ? but never for democracy.

    But at least there was clear-cut strategic success? Oh? The war started to keep Eastern Europe free of Nazis and ended up ensuring that it was enslaved by Stalinists. Poland was neither free in 1940 nor in 1946. By early 1946 we were already considering putting former Luftwaffe pilots in American jets ? improved with ample borrowing from Nazi technology ? to protect Europe from the Red Army carried westward on GM trucks. We put Nazis on trials for war crimes even as we invited their scientists to our shores to match their counterparts in the Soviet Union who were building even more lethal weapons to destroy us. Our utopian idea of a global U.N. immediately deteriorated into a mess ? decades of vetoes in the Security Council by Stalinists and Maoists, even as former colonial states turned thugocracies in the General Assembly ganged up on Israel and the survivors of the Holocaust.

    After Americans had liberated France and restored his country, General de Gaulle created the myth of the French resistance and immediately triangulated with our enemies to reforge some pathetic sort of French grandeur. An exhausted England turned over to us a collapsing empire, with the warning that it might all turn Communist. Tired of the war and postbellum costs, Americans suddenly were asked to wage a new Cold War to keep a shrinking West and its allies free. The Department of War turned into the Department of Defense, along with weird new things like the U.S. Air Force, Strategic Air Command, Food for Peace, Alliance for Progress, Voice of America, and thousands of other costly entities never dreamed of just a few years earlier.

    And yet our greatest generation thought by and large they had done pretty well. We in contrast would have given up in despair in 1942, New York Times columnists and NPR pundits pontificating "I told you so" as if we were better off sitting out the war all along.
This is the very same method of debate I use (in a much abreviated form, of course) with our highly esteemed military historian, David Kaiser. It is amazing how woefully, intentionally or not, ignorant Kaiser seems to be about history and the realities of war. Kaiser seems to be wanting it every which way but the way it is. Bush can't win no matter what he does. In Kaiser's mind it'll always be the wrong thing to do (while Kaiser himself eagerly champions FDR's slaughterhouse approach to WWII no less!).

Hanson closes his article with... well, you can read it for yourself if you'd like. :wink:

What a one-sided, bogus, propagandized version of history.
I could take it apart piece by piece (by mentioning how the US recognized the Nazi-run government of France under Marshall Petain for instance) but rather I'd like to know how any of this really has anything to do with Iraq.

Iraq is a US-created disaster, and all of us protectors of liberalism can do is shake our heads and try and figure out how we are going to clean up after the over eager, gung ho neocon fools.

Because sooner or later we'll be back in control with the largest deficit in history, military commitments from Maza al Sharif to Mosul, a dilapidated domestic infrastructure, and an apathetic citizenry paying more and getting less. What have we done to earn such an honor. To be the pooper scoppers of history, after the fascists have gone and run amok?

I don't know how we are going to clean up after you fools. I just don't know. We should probably take a cue from the French patriot Charles DeGaulle, who upon taking leadership in post war France, declared every law passed under Vichy null and void.
Now that sounds like a plan!







Post#52 at 01-16-2005 11:56 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: The War Unwinnable on the Homefront

Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
What a one-sided, bogus, propagandized version of history. I could take it apart piece by piece...
Well, then, why not give it a good old fashioned try, eh? Line by line. Bring 'em on, dude!

Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
... (by mentioning how the US recognized the Nazi-run government of France under Marshall Petain for instance)
Wow! You mean we hailed a Nazi-run government, then spilt the blood of American boys and girls, en-masse, to free the peoples under that same government?

Was this wise? Or were we really just after their billions of barrels of wine? Hiccup! :wink:







Post#53 at 01-17-2005 09:57 PM by NickSmoliga [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 391]
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01-17-2005, 09:57 PM #53
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World War Follies

Here's are some links to major American follies of W.W.II:

Senator Harry Truman smoked out this fighter that resulted in the loss of all the Marine fighter pilots based at Midway in June 1942:

http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/A...6/JJ/ssbb.html

Four cruisers were sunk or damaged in the opening battle of a series off Guadalcanal that resulted in heavier losses for the USN than for the IJN:

http://www.navalinstitute.org/NavalH....htm?nl=071502

"Then, a curious thing happened. Even before the Japanese ships were in range of the northern group, flares started dropping from the sky, illuminating the U.S. warships. It was an almost flawless example of air-sea coordination. The Japanese had a perfect setup, as they closed and used their searchlights indiscriminately. Our ships fought valiantly, but they fought in vain. The previous two days had caught up with them.

The Quincy went first and rolled over in 11 minutes with few survivors. The forward high turret on both the Astoria and Vincennes blew up, sending a column of flames 1,000 feet into the air. The Vincennes sank next. The Astoria lasted until morning and finally turned over and sank shortly before noon. The Canberra also lasted until morning with about a 20? list and deck ready boxes of ammunition exploding from the heat of the fires that were still burning. Two destroyers were alongside, trying to take off what remained of her crew."
The North African Invasion: http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/kasserine.htm

"After the Anglo-American landings in North Africa on November 8, 1942, the Americans remained optimistic about their ability to fight a real opponent like Rommel and the Afrika Korps. In headlong retreat after the Battle of El Alamein, Rommel had disobeyed orders of his F?hrer. He was not without the ability to fight, however. He intended to consolidate his forces closer to his supply lines.

The green Americans moved slowly to take advantage of the Axis retreat, and while Montgomery pursued Rommel across North Africa, taking Tripoli on January 23, 1943, the Americans did not press the Axis western flank. Eisenhower would later write that the American operations ?violated every recognized principle of war.? Nevertheless, confident Allied commanders planned for the conclusion of operations in North Africa.

Rommel and his junior officers were openly contemptuous of the Americans? ability to fight. After a buildup that included heavy Tiger I tanks that mounted the 88mm gun that Rommel had pioneered in antitank combat, Rommel exploded against the Americans at Fa?d on February 14. Rommel drove the Americans back on what would be the defining moment for the American ground soldier against the Germans ? Kasserine Pass, in the Tunisian Dorsal Mountains.

? On February 19, Rommel probed the American lines, and concluded the Pass was the soft spot in the American lines. The next day, he personally led the attack that cracked the American defenses and sent them reeling back.

Almost everything the Americans believed was wrong. The M3 Lee and Grant tanks, mounting a 75mm fixed gun, had a high silhouette and was difficult to operate in combat with the heavy German pzkpfw Mark IV and Tiger panzers. Also, the Americans fought tank-to-tank, while the Germans concentrated their fire. The M3 would burn when hit and the riveted construction would shoot hot flying rivets around the crew compartment when it was hit. Also, tactical doctrine was inflexible and did not account for the rapid German advance.?
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq30-1.htm

The USS Indianapolis (CA-35) was commissioned at the Philadelphia Navy Yard on 15 November 1932. The ship served with honor from Pearl Harbor through the last campaign of World War II, sinking in action two weeks before the end of the war. On 30 July 1945, while sailing from Guam to Leyte, Indianapolis was torpedoed by Japanese submarine I-58. The ship capsized and sank in twelve minutes. Survivors were spotted by a patrol aircraft on 2 August. All air and surface units capable of rescue operations were dispatched to the scene at once, and the surrounding waters were thoroughly searched for survivors. Upon completion of the day and night search on 8 August, 316 men were rescued out of the crew of 1,199.
The Mark 14 with Mark 6 magnetic torpedo detonator:

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/torpedoes.html

The Mark-14 could be fitted with the new, and very secret, Mark-6 exploder. This included a magnetic influence component that was designed to detect the changes in the earth's magnetic field that occurred as it passed under ship's hull. Just in case, there was also a standard contact exploder incorporated. The Mark-6 exploder was considered so secret that it wasn't issued to the fleet, but was held in reserve, to be issued only after commencement of hostilities. ?

Strangely, for such important technology, there were only a few live fire tests with the new torpedoes and exploders, and these were almost all conducted with exercise heads, where the explosive was replaced by water ballast that could be blown at the end of the run, bringing the torpedo?which was, of course, a very expensive piece of equipment?back to the surface to be picked up and re-used. The real consequences of this particular economy wouldn't be recognized until later...

When the war started, the submarine force was immediately sent into action, with the order to wage "unrestricted submarine warfare" against Japan. As it turned out, it would be 18 months before this really happened, and most of the problem during that time was torpedo related.

Initially, there was a depth keeping problem. A torpedo set to run at fifteen feet would actually run as much as ten feet deeper. This problem was compounded by the blunt statement from the Bureau of Ordnance that there was nothing wrong with the depth keeping mechanism, and the commanders were obviously just missing their targets?

Commanders were complaining that, even with the corrected depth settings, and perfect shots, the magnetic exploders were either detonating prematurely, which only served to warn the target and alert the escorts, or they were passing under the target and not exploding at all.

This was the second time where American torpedo problems ran along the same lines as German torpedo problems (though the German depth keeping problem came from a leaky seal on a balance tank, and not from an engineer rather stupidly basing the settings on practice torpedoes with warheads that weighed 200 pounds less than the production version). In Norway, the u-boats had experienced the same problems with prematures and failures, using their own magnetic exploders.

The two experiences diverged at this point. The Germans recognized the problem, ordered the magnetic exploders deactivated, and went back to blowing up targets. The Americans, on the other hand, insisted that the exploder worked, and that the problem had to be in the people using it?

The American problem was compounded by RAdm Robert English, at Pearl Harbor, and RAdm Ralph Christie, in Australia. Christie had worked on the Mark-6 exploder at Newport, and was convinced that it worked. He presumed that any problems came from poor maintenance or other user error. And it wasn't until English died in a California plane crash, and Lockwood took over at Pearl, that anyone would really listen to the commanders. Lockwood allowed the magnetic exploders to be deactivated on Pearl Harbor boats, though Christie persisted in mandating their use for a while longer.

? Because the captains had been under orders to use the magnetic exploder, and had been setting their torpedoes to run the required five feet under their targets, few of them had had the opportunity to realize that that contact exploder was also defective.

Now, time after time, a perfect shot would send a torpedo squarely into the side of a target, only to have it fail to explode. It might punch a hole in the side of a freighter, but most likely not something that couldn't be repaired at sea. And with a warship, made of thicker steel, it might do nothing more than cause a small dent?.

Once understood, the problem was fairly easy to fix. New firing pins were machined from a light, high-strength aluminum alloy?the metal reportedly came from the propellers of Japanese fighters shot down during the Pearl Harbor raid?and the guides were strengthened, so that they would hold up long enough for the firing pin to strike the primer and detonate the warhead. This "PHM" (Pearl Harbor Modification) was fitted to all the torpedoes in the inventory, and the changes incorporated into new production.

After that, the Mark-14 torpedo suddenly became a model of reliability, and sinkings finally did soar.
War is a messy business, always fraught with problems, and always plagued by mistakes.







Post#54 at 01-17-2005 10:56 PM by Devils Advocate [at joined Nov 2004 #posts 1,834]
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Re: World War Follies

Quote Originally Posted by NickSmoliga
War is a messy business, always fraught with problems, and always plagued by mistakes.
Except those that fail the effort usually get fired, not promoted.

Here's an excerpt from www.civilwar.com:

1861

July 21 - The Union Army under Gen. Irvin McDowell suffers a defeat at Bull Run 25 miles southwest of Washington.

July 27 - President Lincoln appoints George B. McClellan as Commander of the Department of the Potomac, replacing McDowell.

1862:

March 8/9 - President Lincoln temporarily relieves McClellan as general-in-chief and takes direct command of the Union Armies.

June 25-July 1 - The Seven Days Battles as Lee attacks McClellan near Richmond, resulting in very heavy losses for both armies. McClellan then begins a withdrawal back toward Washington.

July 11 - After four months as his own general-in-chief, President Lincoln hands over the task to Gen. Henry W. (Old Brains) Halleck.

August 29/30 - 75,000 Federals under Gen. John Pope are defeated by 55,000 Confederates under Gen. Stonewall Jackson and Gen. James Longstreet at the second battle of Bull Run in northern Virginia. Once again the Union Army retreats to Washington. The president then relieves Pope.

September 17 - The bloodiest day in U.S. military history as Gen. Robert E. Lee and the Confederate Armies are stopped at Antietam in Maryland by McClellan and numerically superior Union forces. By nightfall 26,000 men are dead, wounded, or missing. Lee then withdraws to Virginia.

November 7 - The president replaces McClellan with Gen. Ambrose E. Burnside as the new Commander of the Army of the Potomac. Lincoln had grown impatient with McClellan's slowness to follow up on the success at Antietam, even telling him, "If you don't want to use the army, I should like to borrow it for a while."

December 13 - Army of the Potomac under Gen. Burnside suffers a costly defeat at Fredericksburg in Virginia with a loss of 12,653 men after 14 frontal assaults on well entrenched Rebels on Marye's Heights. "We might as well have tried to take hell," a Union soldier remarks. Confederate losses are 5,309. "It is well that war is so terrible - we should grow too fond of it," states Lee during the fighting.


1863

January 25 - The president appoints Gen. Joseph (Fighting Joe) Hooker as Commander of the Army of the Potomac, replacing Burnside.

May 1-4 - The Union Army under Gen. Hooker is decisively defeated by Lee's much smaller forces at the Battle of Chancellorsville in Virginia as a result of Lee's brilliant and daring tactics. Confederate Gen. Stonewall Jackson is mortally wounded by his own soldiers. Hooker retreats. Union losses are 17,000 killed, wounded and missing out of 130,000. The Confederates, 13, 000 out of 60,000. "I just lost confidence in Joe Hooker," said Hooker later about his own lack of nerve during the battle.

June 28 - President Lincoln appoints Gen. George G. Meade as commander of the Army of the Potomac, replacing Hooker. Meade is the 5th man to command the Army in less than a year.

September 19/20 - A decisive Confederate victory by Gen. Braxton Bragg's Army of Tennessee at Chickamauga leaves Gen. William S. Rosecrans' Union Army of the Cumberland trapped in Chattanooga, Tennessee under Confederate siege.

October 16 - The president appoints Gen. Grant to command all operations in the western theater.

1864

March 9 - President Lincoln appoints Gen. Grant to command all of the armies of the United States. Gen. William T. Sherman succeeds Grant as commander in the west.

1865

April 9 - Gen. Robert E. Lee surrenders his Confederate Army to Gen. Ulysses S. Grant at the village of Appomattox Court House in Virginia. Grant allows Rebel officers to keep their sidearms and permits soldiers to keep horses and mules. "After four years of arduous service marked by unsurpassed courage and fortitude the Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources," Lee tells his troops.




Needless to say, if Bush was president then, I am sure Alexander Pope woudl recieve the medal of freedom, and McClellan would have been promoted to secretary of state :lol:







Post#55 at 01-17-2005 11:25 PM by NickSmoliga [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 391]
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McCellan Sought to End the War in 1864

McCellan Sought to End the War in 1864, and ran as a Democrat! Lincoln ravaged the Constitution to save the Union.:

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/greaet.htm ; http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/walter.htm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Nat...rity/hl834.cfm ;

Things rarely work out as intended. Had America split into two or more parts in 1861, I?d guess the dark future of Harry Turtledove?s Great War: American Front would have been far more likely than the bright vision of McKinley Cantor's If the South Had Won the Civil War.







Post#56 at 01-17-2005 11:42 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: World War Follies

Quote Originally Posted by NickSmoliga
War is a messy business, always fraught with problems, and always plagued by mistakes.
Here's the picture we all remember from our history books...

  • General Dwight D. Eisenhower meets with troops on
    June 5, 1944, the eve of the D-Day invasion of Normandy.
And here's one we never saw in the history books...

And from the Department of the Navy's FAQ page, here is the story:
  • When the waters of the English Channel at last ceased to wash bloated bodies ashore, the toll of the dead and missing stood at 198 sailors and 551 soldiers, a total of 749, the most costly training incident involving U.S. forces during World War II.

    Generals Omar N. Bradley and Eisenhower watched "the murderous chaos" and "were horrified and determined that details of their own mistakes would be buried with their men." That a massive cover-up took place is beyond doubt. And that General Dwight D. Eisenhower authorized it is equally clear.
Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
Except those that fail the effort usually get fired, not promoted. :lol:
No, he got another star, and promoted to the Supreme
Commander of all Allied Expeditionary Forces,
by the great gray champ, Franklin Delano Roosevelt.







Post#57 at 01-18-2005 12:00 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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I didn't think it was possible, but Marc and Nick are co-delusional.

Both of you please - sit quietly for ten minutes, then ask the nice nurse to adjust you meds. When the fantasy passes remember:
  • Iraq is not now and will never be anything like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
... but if you persist in hallucinating, we'll have to ask the nice doctor for something stronger.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#58 at 01-18-2005 12:19 AM by Devils Advocate [at joined Nov 2004 #posts 1,834]
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01-18-2005, 12:19 AM #58
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
I didn't think it was possible, but Marc and Nick are co-delusional.

Both of you please - sit quietly for ten minutes, then ask the nice nurse to adjust you meds. When the fantasy passes remember:
  • Iraq is not now and will never be anything like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
... but if you persist in hallucinating, we'll have to ask the nice doctor for something stronger.
I wish there was a "shaking head" icon for these guys. Too much History Channel.







Post#59 at 01-18-2005 12:42 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
I didn't think it was possible, but Marc and Nick are co-delusional.

Both of you please - sit quietly for ten minutes, then ask the nice nurse to adjust you meds. When the fantasy passes remember:
  • Iraq is not now and will never be anything like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
... but if you persist in hallucinating, we'll have to ask the nice doctor for something stronger.
  • ?The Patriot Act is as un-American as Mein Kampf.? -- Michael Moore, Dude Where?s My Country
Right, it's America that is most like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, huh? Here's some more delusion for you, circa the New York Times in 1996:
  • With talks on Iraqi oil sales stalled and no end to sanctions in sight, about 4,500 children under the age of 5 are dying every month in Iraq of hunger or disease, Carol Bellamy, the executive director of UNICEF, said on Monday.
You can do the math on the Iraq suffering vs. the Great Tsunami of 2004. Yet, that's about the time the U.N. instituted the huge relief effort to aid these kids called the Oil for Food Program. Yet...

Yet, in 1999, Ramsey Clark, in his book, The Children Are Dying, claimed that "half a million children under the age of five have died of malnutrition and preventable diseases," since 1996. And Today's New York Times lead editorial details where all that Oil for Food aid was going to, and it wasn't the children of Iraq.
  • As the flow of money ballooned, the United Nations, with an annual budget of just $1.5 billion, was responsible for collecting and disbursing as much as $10 billion a year in Iraqi oil revenues. Even as the fraud engineered by Mr. Hussein's government became widely understood, the officials said, neither the Security Council nor United Nations administrators tried to recover the diverted money or investigate aggressively.

    Iraq's suppliers included Russian factories, Arab trade brokers, European manufacturers and state-owned companies from China and the Middle East. In one instance, American officials in Iraq found, Syria had been prepared to kick back nearly 15 percent on its $57.5 million contract to sell wheat to Iraq. And some of the world's biggest oil traders and refineries did business with Baghdad, including Glencore, a Swiss-based trading company.

    When the United States and others wanted the sanctions committee to confront Syria on oil sales, they were blocked by Russia and France, which argued that Syria should not be singled out when the Americans refused to investigate Iraq's equally lucrative oil trade with their allies, Jordan and Turkey.

    Congressional investigators have estimated that Iraq collected $5.7 billion from selling oil outside United Nations supervision, while the oil-for-food program was chronically short of money for relief supplies.
The destructive web of lies and deceit, My dear Mr. Horn, was much wider than just Iraq, and more sinister than one Mr. Saddam. But if you'd like to just continue burying your head in the red clay of Virginia, so be it. You can donate a few bucks to the latest Tsunami relief scam, feel all warm and cozy about it, and join the next Michael Moore/Sean Penn et all sponsored Bush is Hitler rally coming to your neck-of-the-woods soon!







Post#60 at 01-18-2005 01:02 AM by Devils Advocate [at joined Nov 2004 #posts 1,834]
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Hi, I'm Sally Struthers and today I would like to ask you to invest $200 Billion of your own money for the poor people of Iraq...all it takes is just $177 million per day, that's only $7.4 million per hour and about $122,820 per minute...







Post#61 at 01-18-2005 03:44 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
I didn't think it was possible, but Marc and Nick are co-delusional.

Both of you please - sit quietly for ten minutes, then ask the nice nurse to adjust you meds. When the fantasy passes remember:
  • Iraq is not now and will never be anything like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
... but if you persist in hallucinating, we'll have to ask the nice doctor for something stronger.
I wish there was a "shaking head" icon for these guys. Too much History Channel.


I don't know about Nick, but the Trog just needs some better porno mags so he can get back to what he does best and leave us alone.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#62 at 01-18-2005 03:45 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater


Hi, I'm Sally Struthers and today I would like to ask you to invest $200 Billion of your own money for the poor people of Iraq...all it takes is just $177 million per day, that's only $7.4 million per hour and about $122,820 per minute...
Yikes! I'm afraid she might eat an Iraqi.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#63 at 01-18-2005 03:51 AM by Milo [at The Lands Beyond joined Aug 2004 #posts 926]
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Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater


Hi, I'm Sally Struthers and today I would like to ask you to invest $200 Billion of your own money for the poor people of Iraq...all it takes is just $177 million per day, that's only $7.4 million per hour and about $122,820 per minute...
What *happened* to Sally Struthers? I mean: what went wrong?







Post#64 at 01-18-2005 04:04 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by kenof98112
Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater


Hi, I'm Sally Struthers and today I would like to ask you to invest $200 Billion of your own money for the poor people of Iraq...all it takes is just $177 million per day, that's only $7.4 million per hour and about $122,820 per minute...
What *happened* to Sally Struthers? I mean: what went wrong?
She ate too many Ethiopians in the 80's.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#65 at 01-18-2005 09:25 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
Quote Originally Posted by DA
You can do the math on the Iraq suffering vs. the Great Tsunami of 2004. Yet, that's about the time the U.N. instituted the huge relief effort to aid these kids called the Oil for Food Program. Yet...

Yet, in 1999, Ramsey Clark, in his book, The Children Are Dying, claimed that "half a million children under the age of five have died of malnutrition and preventable diseases," since 1996.


Hi, I'm Sally Struthers and today I would like to ask you to invest $200 Billion of your own money for the poor people of Iraq...all it takes is just $177 million per day, that's only $7.4 million per hour and about $122,820 per minute...
You've got to love how our President, the leader of the free world, has been expending the same kind of generosity he has shown Iraq to Southeast Asia.

Today, after clearing some brush and bicycling at the ranch in Crawford, TX, Bush was forced by a attention addict Bill Clinton (appeared on the BBC) into making a statement on the devastating tsunami that killed more than 70,000 people and offering the countries a measly $35 million relief package.

I guess the UN charge that the US has been "stingy" isn't too far off the mark
Gee, yesterday too little, and today too much. And tomorrow will be another day liberals lose another election, and another, and another.







Post#66 at 01-18-2005 10:10 AM by Devils Advocate [at joined Nov 2004 #posts 1,834]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Gee, yesterday too little, and today too much. And tomorrow will be another day liberals lose another election, and another, and another.
because spending $40 million on a gala for lobbyists is "celebrating democracy"



Critics Say Bush Inaugural Too Lavish for Wartime

Mon Jan 17, 6:58 PM ET

Politics - Reuters

By Caren Bohan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites) is drawing heat over a $40 million splurge on inaugural balls, concerts and candlelight dinners while the country is in a somber mood because of the Iraq (news - web sites) war and Asian tsunami.


As Bush prepares for his second-term inauguration on Thursday, his supporters plan to celebrate with fireworks and three days of parties, including a "Black Tie and Boots" ball and nine other balls.

Critics say the lavish celebrations are unseemly when U.S. troops face daily violence in Iraq and Americans are being urged to donate money to alleviate the suffering in Asia, where the Dec. 26 tsunami killed 163,000 people.

"I just think that the sobriety of the times dictate that we be mindful of the imagery of these things," said Democratic Rep. Anthony Weiner (news, bio, voting record) of New York. In a letter, Weiner urged Bush to ask donors to redirect their inaugural contributions to equipment for troops in Iraq, some of whom have complained of having to scrounge for scrap metal to protect their vehicles.

"Precedent suggests that inaugural festivities should be muted -- if not canceled -- in wartime," Weiner wrote to Bush, saying that the money could pay for 690 Humvees and a $290 bonus for each soldier serving in Iraq.

Weiner cited the example of President Franklin Roosevelt, who celebrated his trimmed-down 1945 inaugural with cold chicken salad and pound cake.

Bush said he rejected such criticism.

"It's important that we celebrate a peaceful transfer of power .... You can be equally concerned about our troops in Iraq and those who suffered at the tsunamis (and) with celebrating democracy," Bush said in a CBS News interview released on Monday.

He said inauguration activities would include military-themed events such as a Commander-in-Chief Ball and a Salute to Service. "There's ways for us to honor the soldier and, at the same time, celebrate," the president added.

President Lyndon Johnson did not eschew pageantry in 1965, racking up a $1.6 million bill for inaugural festivities despite the Vietnam War, historian Robert Dallek noted.

VICTORY WAR DANCE

The tradition of inaugural balls dates back to the swearing in of James Madison in 1809. In modern presidential history, expensive parties and balls have become part of the tradition.

Companies and individual donors, not taxpayers, are footing the bill for Bush's festivities.

Political scientist George Edwards of Texas A & M University said he didn't fault the president's supporters for indulging in a little splendor but said the huge donations feed a cynical view of the influence of special interests.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the events were a time to "celebrate freedom" and "pay tribute to our men and women in uniform." A formal salute to troops is part of the inaugural program.

Donors to the inaugural celebrations include corporations such as Ford Motor Co., Marathon Oil and Northrop Grumman as well as lobby groups like the American Bankers Association and the National Association of Home Builders.

Contributions have also poured in from donors such as Alex Spanos, owner of the San Diego Chargers football team, and Carl Lindner, owner of the Cincinnati Reds baseball team.



In addition to controversy over the private money spent on the inauguration, the bill to pay District of Columbia policeman and other workers for event security has also prompted criticism.

Washington officials are upset that the federal government has told them to use homeland security grants to pay costs associated with the inauguration. Mayor Anthony Williams estimated the inauguration would cost the cash-strapped city about $17.3 million.







Post#67 at 01-29-2005 10:13 AM by NickSmoliga [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 391]
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01-29-2005, 10:13 AM #67
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The Allies of the Terrorists

http://www.washingtontimes.com/funct...8-083216-1353r

The Washington Times |www.washingtontimes.com

Fourth estate or fifth column? | By Thomas Sowell | Published January 29, 2005

There are still people in the mainstream media who profess bewilderment they are accused of bias. But you need look no further than reporting on the war in Iraq to see the bias staring you in the face, day after day, on the Page One of the New York Times and in much of the rest of the media. If a battle ends with Americans killing 100 guerrillas and terrorists, while sustaining 10 fatalities, that is an American victory. But not in the mainstream media. The headline is more likely to read: "Ten more Americans killed in Iraq today." This kind of journalism can turn victory into defeat in print or on TV. Kept up long enough, it can even end up in real defeat, when support for the war collapses at home and abroad.

One of the biggest American victories during the World War II was called "the great Marianas turkey shoot" because American fighter pilots shot down more than 340 Japanese planes over the Marianas Islands while losing only 30 American planes. But what if current reporting practices had been used back then?
The story, as printed and broadcast, could have been: "Today 18 American pilots were killed and five more severely wounded, as the Japanese blasted more than two-dozen American planes out of the sky." A steady diet of such one-sided reporting and our whole war effort against Japan might have collapsed.

Whether the one-sided reporting of the Vietnam War was a factor in the American defeat once was a matter of controversy. But, in recent years, high officials of Vietnam's communist government have themselves admitted they lost the war on the battlefields but won it in the U.S. media and on the streets of America, where political pressures from the antiwar movement threw away the victory for which thousands of American lives had been sacrificed. Too many in the media today regard the reporting of the Vietnam War as one of their greatest triumphs. It certainly showed the power of the media -- but also its irresponsibility. Some in the media today seem determined to recapture those glory days by how they report on events in the Iraq war.

First, there is the mainstream media's almost exclusive focus on American casualties in Iraq, with little or no attention given the often much larger casualties inflicted on the guerrillas and terrorists from inside and outside Iraq. Since terrorists are pouring into Iraq in response to calls from international terrorist networks, the number killed is especially important, for these are people who will no longer be able to launch more attacks on American soil. Iraq has become a magnet for enemies of the United States, a place where they can be killed wholesale, thousands of miles away.

With all the turmoil and bloodshed in Iraq, both military and civilian personnel returning from that country are increasingly expressing amazement at the difference between what they themselves have seen and the far worse, one-sided picture the media present to the public here. Our media cannot even call terrorists terrorists but instead give these cutthroats the bland name "insurgents." You might think these were like the underground fighters in Nazi-occupied Europe during World War II. The most obvious difference is that the European underground did not go about targeting innocent civilians.

As for the Nazis, they tried to deny the atrocities they committed. But today the "insurgents" in Iraq are proud of their barbarism, videotape it and publicize it -- often with the help of the Western media.
Real insurgents want to get the occupying power out of their country. But the fastest way to get Americans out of Iraq would be to do the opposite of what these "insurgents" are doing. Just by letting peace and order return, those who want to see American troops gone would speed their departure. The United States has voluntarily pulled out of conquered territory all around the world, including neighboring Kuwait after the first Gulf war. But the guerrillas' and terrorists' real goal is to prevent democracy from arising in the Middle East.

Still, much of the Western media cannot call a spade a spade. The Fourth Estate sometimes seems more like a Fifth Column.
To paraphrase Karl Von Clausewitz: ?Reporting is only a continuation of political policy by other means.?







Post#68 at 01-29-2005 10:47 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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01-29-2005, 10:47 AM #68
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Fifth Columny

Quote Originally Posted by NickSmoliga
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050128-083216-1353r

The Washington Times |www.washingtontimes.com

Fourth estate or fifth column? | By Thomas Sowell | Published January 29, 2005

There are still people in the mainstream media who profess bewilderment they are accused of bias....

Still, much of the Western media cannot call a spade a spade. The Fourth Estate sometimes seems more like a Fifth Column.
To paraphrase Karl Von Clausewitz: ?Reporting is only a continuation of political policy by other means.?
Quote Originally Posted by A Fifth Columnist
Despite the political spin coming out of Washington, this Balkan war is not about the good guys versus the bad guys, and
our intervention has done less damage to Milosevic's military forces than to a lot of innocent people, including Kosovar refugees,
the Chinese embassy and Serbian civilians.

Even the NATO officials now in Kosovo admit that the damage done to the Yugoslav military, and especially its tanks, is
less than they expected or claimed. These claims are now being described as "exaggerated" and the officials who know the facts as "very subdued." This of course will not stop the White House spin or the hoopla of the editorial office heroes who have
been gung-ho for this military intervention from the beginning.

The fact that Slobodan Milosevic is a vile man does not make his Kosovar enemies saints. Throughout history, the Balkans
have been a very unlikely place to go looking for saints. The very geography of the region has separated peoples and contributed
to the seething hatreds and unspeakable atrocities that have been part of its legacy.

...


More tragically, that same shallow arrogance has remained the hallmark of those who consider themselves "progressives"
at home and abroad. Like Wilson, many of them regard academic credentials as a license to impose their superior wisdom and
virtue on others. Ivy League degrees and Rhodes scholarships can be found on the resumes of all too many of those who have
presided over American debacles from Vietnam to Somalia to Kosovo....What they have that is more important to them than specific knowledge of what they are doing is a vision of the world and
a vision of themselves. Their test of a belief is not how it fits the facts but how it fits their vision. That is what makes them so dangerous.
A quagmire and a vision | By Thomas Sowell | Published July 7, 1999 :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:







Post#69 at 01-29-2005 03:39 PM by NickSmoliga [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 391]
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01-29-2005, 03:39 PM #69
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?Reporting is only a continuation of ..."

?... political policy by other means.? And always has been. So, media bias has always been alive and well.







Post#70 at 01-29-2005 08:59 PM by NickSmoliga [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 391]
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01-29-2005, 08:59 PM #70
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The Influence of Reporting on Recent History

Wall Street Journal | August 3, 1995 | Bui Tin | How North Vietnam Won The War

Taken from The Wall Street Journal, Thursday August 3, 1995

What did the North Vietnamese leadership think of the American antiwar movement? What was the purpose of the Tet Offensive? How could the U.S. have been more successful in fighting the Vietnam War? Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, answers these questions in the following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young, a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army, received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. He later became editor of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of Vietnam. He now lives in Paris, where he immigrated after becoming disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism.

Question: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

Answer: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said, "We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

A: It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.


Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?

A: Keenly.

Q: Why?

A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.

Q: How could the Americans have won the war?

A: Cut the Ho Chi Minh trail inside Laos. If Johnson had granted [Gen. William] Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war.

Q: Anything else?

A: Train South Vietnam's generals. The junior South Vietnamese officers were good, competent and courageous, but the commanding general officers were inept.

Q: Did Hanoi expect that the National Liberation Front would win power in South Vietnam?

A: No. Gen. [Vo Nguyen] Giap [commander of the North Vietnamese army] believed that guerrilla warfare was important but not sufficient for victory. Regular military divisions with artillery and armor would be needed. The Chinese believed in fighting only with guerrillas, but we had a different approach. The Chinese were reluctant to help us. Soviet aid made the war possible. Le Duan [secretary general of the Vietnamese Communist Party] once told Mao Tse-tung that if you help us, we are sure to win; if you don't, we will still win, but we will have to sacrifice one or two million more soldiers to do so.

Q: Was the National Liberation Front an independent political movement of South Vietnamese?

A: No. It was set up by our Communist Party to implement a decision of the Third Party Congress of September 1960. We always said there was only one party, only one army in the war to liberate the South and unify the nation. At all times there was only one party commissar in command of the South.

Q: Why was the Ho Chi Minh trail so important?

A: It was the only way to bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South. Building and maintaining the trail was a huge effort, involving tens of thousands of soldiers, drivers, repair teams, medical stations, communication units.

Q: What of American bombing of the Ho Chi Minh trail?

A: Not very effective. Our operations were never compromised by attacks on the trail. At times, accurate B-52 strikes would cause real damage, but we put so much in at the top of the trail that enough men and weapons to prolong the war always came out the bottom. Bombing by smaller planes rarely hit significant targets.

Q: What of American bombing of North Vietnam?

A: If all the bombing had been concentrated at one time, it would have hurt our efforts. But the bombing was expanded in slow stages under Johnson and it didn't worry us. We had plenty of times to prepare alternative routes and facilities. We always had stockpiles of rice ready to feed the people for months if a harvest were damaged. The Soviets bought rice from Thailand for us.

Q: What was the purpose of the 1968 Tet Offensive?

A: To relieve the pressure Gen. Westmoreland was putting on us in late 1966 and 1967 and to weaken American resolve during a presidential election year.


Q: What about Gen. Westmoreland's strategy and tactics caused you concern?

A: Our senior commander in the South, Gen. Nguyen Chi Thanh, knew that we were losing base areas, control of the rural population and that his main forces were being pushed out to the borders of South Vietnam. He also worried that Westmoreland might receive permission to enter Laos and cut the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

In January 1967, after discussions with Le Duan, Thanh proposed the Tet Offensive. Thanh was the senior member of the Politburo in South Vietnam. He supervised the entire war effort. Thanh's struggle philosophy was that "America is wealthy but not resolute," and "squeeze tight to the American chest and attack." He was invited up to Hanoi for further discussions. He went on commercial flights with a false passport from Cambodia to Hong Kong and then to Hanoi. Only in July was his plan adopted by the leadership. Then Johnson had rejected Westmoreland's request for 200,000 more troops. We realized that America had made its maximum military commitment to the war. Vietnam was not sufficiently important for the United States to call up its reserves. We had stretched American power to a breaking point. When more frustration set in, all the Americans could do would be to withdraw; they had no more troops to send over.

Tet was designed to influence American public opinion. We would attack poorly defended parts of South Vietnam cities during a holiday and a truce when few South Vietnamese troops would be on duty. Before the main attack, we would entice American units to advance close to the borders, away from the cities. By attacking all South Vietnam's major cities, we would spread out our forces and neutralize the impact of American firepower. Attacking on a broad front, we would lose some battles but win others. We used local forces nearby each target to frustrate discovery of our plans. Small teams, like the one which attacked the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, would be sufficient. It was a guerrilla strategy of hit-and-run raids.

Q: What about the results?

A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was.

Q: What of Nixon?

A: Well, when Nixon stepped down because of Watergate we knew we would win. Pham Van Dong [prime minister of North Vietnam] said of Gerald Ford, the new president, "he's the weakest president in U.S. history; the people didn't elect him; even if you gave him candy, he doesn't dare to intervene in Vietnam again." We tested Ford's resolve by attacking Phuoc Long in January 1975. When Ford kept American B-52's in their hangers, our leadership decided on a big offensive against South Vietnam.

Q: What else?

A: We had the impression that American commanders had their hands tied by political factors. Your generals could never deploy a maximum force for greatest military effect.

A: We had the impression that American commanders had their hands tied by political factors. Your generals could never deploy a maximum force for greatest military effect.[/quote]







Post#71 at 01-29-2005 10:14 PM by Devils Advocate [at joined Nov 2004 #posts 1,834]
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Re: The Allies of the Terrorists

The Washington Times |www.washingtontimes.com

Fourth estate or fifth column? | By Thomas Sowell | Published January 29, 2005

There are still people in the mainstream media who profess bewilderment they are accused of bias.
True. FOX, the Post, and many of the other media outlets that slant hard right will only accuse others of being too liberal rather than admit their bias themselves...Those that live in glass houses...







But you need look no further than reporting on the war in Iraq to see the bias staring you in the face, day after day, on the Page One of the New York Times and in much of the rest of the media. If a battle ends with Americans killing 100 guerrillas and terrorists, while sustaining 10 fatalities, that is an American victory. But not in the mainstream media. The headline is more likely to read: "Ten more Americans killed in Iraq today." This kind of journalism can turn victory into defeat in print or on TV. Kept up long enough, it can even end up in real defeat, when support for the war collapses at home and abroad.
To be a Bush propaganda whore, or not to be a Bush propaganda whore: That is the $200 billion question!
Look, if the President needs to buy journalists to spread his agenda - then there is obviously something wrong. If there is so much bad news the right wingers have to blame the messenger, then something has gone wrong.
If only Bush could pay the New York Times off. Then all of his problems would go away!

One of the biggest American victories during the World War II was called "the great Marianas turkey shoot" because American fighter pilots shot down more than 340 Japanese planes over the Marianas Islands while losing only 30 American planes. But what if current reporting practices had been used back then?
The story, as printed and broadcast, could have been: "Today 18 American pilots were killed and five more severely wounded, as the Japanese blasted more than two-dozen American planes out of the sky." A steady diet of such one-sided reporting and our whole war effort against Japan might have collapsed.
This isn't World War II. In World War II we had a clear objective - defeat the Japanese and Germans, not defeat some vague group of Saddam's leftovers and foreign fighters and build a free Iraq that has a poster of W. on every wall blah blah blah....

The US forces are suffering from a lack of hardnosed Gen X managers.
Our time will come.



Whether the one-sided reporting of the Vietnam War was a factor in the American defeat once was a matter of controversy. But, in recent years, high officials of Vietnam's communist government have themselves admitted they lost the war on the battlefields but won it in the U.S. media and on the streets of America, where political pressures from the antiwar movement threw away the victory for which thousands of American lives had been sacrificed. Too many in the media today regard the reporting of the Vietnam War as one of their greatest triumphs. It certainly showed the power of the media -- but also its irresponsibility. Some in the media today seem determined to recapture those glory days by how they report on events in the Iraq war.
It is hilarious to think that Richard M. Nixon's administration of crooks and lackeys ever gave two shits what the American public thought about the Vietnam War. It is also laughable that they would try to blame the American people for the war which took them ten years to lose.
It's not the American people's fault they grew impatient with a ten year war. It's fitting that right wingers would blame a free media in spite after they lost that conflict as they A) loathe freedom and B) cannot accept responsibility for their shortcomings


First, there is the mainstream media's almost exclusive focus on American casualties in Iraq, with little or no attention given the often much larger casualties inflicted on the guerrillas and terrorists from inside and outside Iraq. Since terrorists are pouring into Iraq in response to calls from international terrorist networks, the number killed is especially important, for these are people who will no longer be able to launch more attacks on American soil. Iraq has become a magnet for enemies of the United States, a place where they can be killed wholesale, thousands of miles away.
Nobody seems to count the dead Iraqi civilians either. As far as our American-centric media is concerned it doesn't matter how many Arabs die. They're all named Muhammad and they are all the same. Don't blame the media for only counting American dead. I'm sure when we blow the shit out of the Iranian people we'll managed to resurrect the 9-11 dead one more time...




With all the turmoil and bloodshed in Iraq, both military and civilian personnel returning from that country are increasingly expressing amazement at the difference between what they themselves have seen and the far worse, one-sided picture the media present to the public here. Our media cannot even call terrorists terrorists but instead give these cutthroats the bland name "insurgents." You might think these were like the underground fighters in Nazi-occupied Europe during World War II. The most obvious difference is that the European underground did not go about targeting innocent civilians.
Oh come on now - nobody gives a shit about civilians. Don't play like you actually care when you've liberated 100,000 people from their lives to bring freedom to their country. And terrorism is just a method. It cannot be used to describe armies of individuals. We might as well call the American soldiers "occupationists."



As for the Nazis, they tried to deny the atrocities they committed. But today the "insurgents" in Iraq are proud of their barbarism, videotape it and publicize it -- often with the help of the Western media.
Real insurgents want to get the occupying power out of their country. But the fastest way to get Americans out of Iraq would be to do the opposite of what these "insurgents" are doing. Just by letting peace and order return, those who want to see American troops gone would speed their departure. The United States has voluntarily pulled out of conquered territory all around the world, including neighboring Kuwait after the first Gulf war. But the guerrillas' and terrorists' real goal is to prevent democracy from arising in the Middle East.
Who would be so foolish to embark on such a crusade like "bringing democracies to the Middle East." Nobody in their right mind would commit such money and blood to a venture without the promise of a return.
Who are we kidding here? The architects of this war are businessmen who expected a cakewalk Gulf War II with some nice photo-ops and some cheap oil. That it blew up in their face is their fault. It's their responsibility to fix it. The harder it gets, the greater the idealistic fluffy bullshit they wrap it in shall become.


Still, much of the Western media cannot call a spade a spade. The Fourth Estate sometimes seems more like a Fifth Column.

To paraphrase Karl Von Clausewitz: ?Reporting is only a continuation of political policy by other means.?
Same old tired right wing rhetoric. There's your spade.
As for the Nazis, it appears their fellow right wingers like to bring them up at any occasion to make themselves look good. But when it came to honouring Auschwitz victims, VP Cheney couldn't seem to find anything other than his parka to wear to a ceremony last week:









Post#72 at 01-30-2005 12:37 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Bush didn't cave and the elections went well. Preliminary reports say 72% turnout.







Post#73 at 01-30-2005 02:06 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Give credit to Kerry and Kennedy

Well, much of the credit for the successful election in Iraq must go to John Kerry for his firm resolve and deft leadership. Also, without the great support from Ted Kennedy and his fellow Democrats in Congress, Kerry could never have pulled off this effort to see democracy succeed in Iraq.







Post#74 at 01-30-2005 02:16 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Blue Stater
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Gee, yesterday too little, and today too much. And tomorrow will be another day liberals lose another election, and another, and another.
because spending $40 million on a gala for lobbyists is "celebrating democracy"

Critics Say Bush Inaugural Too Lavish for Wartime

Mon Jan 17, 6:58 PM ET

Politics - Reuters
Funny, Clinton spent 25% more on his second inaugural bash than did Bush. But then again that was liberal greenbacks, which smells much sweeter than does big oil bucks from neocons. 8)







Post#75 at 01-30-2005 06:12 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59
Bush didn't cave and the elections went well. Preliminary reports say 72% turnout.
What you posted says 60%, if that's even to be believed. And it is still very unclear how things went overall in the Sunni portion of the country.

One thing is clear, "better than expected" is the mantra of the Kool Aid Drinkers. Rove is brilliant. You gotta give him that.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
-----------------------------------------