William Strauss observes that "Lis may be right--as she so often is--about how the previously tuned-out people in both zones (maybe we should call it the red-white-and-blue zone), from everywhere, will be the ones who will embrace the 4T the most."

President George Bush cautions, "I will not settle for a token act. Our response must be sweeping, sustained and effective. ... You will be asked for your patience, for the conflict will not be short. You will be asked for resolve, for the conflict will not be easy. You will be asked for your strength because the course to victory may be long."

Marc Lamb wonders how does a zoned out culture that embraces all things Mona Lewinsky, Britney Spears, N-Sync et al suddenly shift into a "red-white-and-blue zone" ready to for a "sustained and effective" effort, endured with "patience" and firm "resolve," "because the course to victory may be long"?

Are we suddenly to find such courage and character just because of the enormity of the cruel atrocity?

Why did we NOT have in WWI, what we later found in WWII?

The most previously tuned out people, as we know, are Xers. Having no deeply-held convictions from previous turnings, expect them to become the most deeply and swiftly involved in the 4T mindset. While they erected much of 3T culture, they will also be the first to let go of these things.

All too true. As many of you know, I'm involved in the video game industry and most of my fellow GenX friends and associates are involved in some way, shape or form in the entertainment business. I can tell on a personal level that most of us in this industry went or are going through a 3 stage mental process in regards to this.

- The first thing that went through our heads was "How can I help?" If you were looking for an event that would at last engage the Nomads - believe me, this is it.

- The next thing that went through our heads is "Oh, my God, I'm in entertainment - how meaningless is that? I'm not trained to to do anything useful!"

- Finally, most of us went back to work, at first under the vague rationalization that "If we let the terrorists change our lifestyle, they win." Unfortunately, that's 3T thinking and is no longer satisfying.

I would say that most of us looked at the issues that were awaiting us at our desk - realized how meaningless they had become in the new world and swept them aside in a new determination to make our work matter, to contribute somehow to the new Turning.

In my own case, I work for a game company that produces games based on Tom Clancy novels. Most of them revolve around Rainbow Team - in which the player plays a member of an elite anti-terrorist squad.

We have two titles getting ready for release and we've spent the last several days tearing through the content of the games determing what to pull and what to replace, and even whether or not we want to hold back on the release date. What's come out of this discussion and monitoring the response of gamers worldwide is a shift in tone in our presentation of these materials. Where before they were just "games" now, they're serious. In our discussions, we drew an analogy to Hollywood during WWII when they made 2 kinds of movies - fluffy escapist entertainment or war movies that helped inspire patriotism and help for the war effort. Expect the same kind of shift in the video game industry - it's already begun on my desk.

One other example, the popular on-line game Counterstrike in which teams of players play as terrorists and anti-terrorist squads. One would expect that the game would die swiftly after 9-11. On the contrary, the game lobbies are more crowded than ever, with players switching off the roles of terrorist and anti-terrorist. When I asked one player why interest in the game had peaked so much in the days following the attack, I received an eloquent one word answer

"Practice."

Since at present they dominate the entertainment industry, expect also to see a major shift away from the gross-out/shock/celebrity-worship/freak show mentality, and toward upbeat and escapist harmless entertainment that comforts and provides an temporary escape during times of crisis.

Already begun

- The Arnold Schwarzenegger film "Collateral Damage" has been pulled, all advertising has been halted and the studio is even paying for posters already placed to be removed.

- The TV series "24", "Alias" and 2 involving the CIA are being held back and possibly re-tooled.

- 2 albums, a live Dream Theater album that showed the NYC skyline in flames and a rap album cover that showed the WTC blowing up (ironically released on 9-11) have been pulled.

Expect to see even rap and hip-hop to be toned down as we move forward. Those rap and hard rock groups who were formerly on the edge, advocating burning the White House and similar things will either lose their recording contracts or be pulled in. I would expect groups like Queensryche (who are as extreme leftis as they come) to stop preaching revolution and start talking about the need for unity and to not attack Arab-Americans on our own soil.

The "bad, wild" Xers are meeting all this with resignation and even relief. They don't seem to resent the fact that they had a far shorter time in the pop culture limelight than Boomers did.

More than that. Like Nomads throughout history, our "wild" phase was a search for something to believe in - even if it was only ourselves. We've been searching for so long for a rock to anchor our lives to, something to believe in. I think we might have found it.

Xers in particular seem to be involving themselves to a great degree in the rescue and clean-up effort, and are embracing family-oriented, midlife lifestyles with aplomb. This is the sort of thing they *want* to be involved in.

Thank you for noticing.

Lis:


First, let me remind you that I live among the so-called red-zoners, even though I don't count myself one of them.


OK. Let me add here a caution that in that case, you don't live among the so-called blue-zoners, and therefore your understanding of us is likely to be more flawed than your understanding of the red-zoners.


One, the sense of community has been increasing steadily in the last several years.


Good. That's been the case in the blue zone, too.


Two, more people from the coasts have a hard time seeing Millennial behavior among 16-20 year old crowd than anyone here.


I'm sorry, Lis, but that's just flatly untrue. See first point above.


there has been a lot of pre-Winter thinking here that I have seen little or no evidence of in the blue zone.


Then you're not looking closely enough. You're mistaken.


Four, most of the Boomerish belligerance has been from the more youthful heartland members of the government, not the coasts.


Are you identifying "Boomerish belligerence" with the Boomer right? In that case, you are correct in your statement, but incorrect in its underlying premise.


Five . . . the Crisis seemed to be starting in the heartland and moving toward the coasts


Last time I was there, New York City was on the coast. Washington, D.C., while not on the coast, is pretty close to it. Certainly most people wouldn't class the nation's capital in the "heartland."


I could go on, but I hope that makes the point well enough that you can see what I meant.


I don't know whether I see what you meant or not. If I do, then I disagree.


I'm just relieved that both sides seem finally to be on the same page...the important page.


Me, too. But I could express that relief in as one-sided a manner as you have by saying it's a relief that the religious right culture warriors will finally shut up, leave us alone, and let us get down to important business.


I sometimes get the impression, although this is not specifically stated, that some people are seeing the Crisis as a reversal of the Awakening, not merely in the sense that it exalts community over the individual where the Awakening did the opposite, but also in the sense that it will reverse the cultural changes the Awakening brought. I think that's an extremely unrealistic expectation. Nor, so far, is it happening.


Look, I don't really want to argue about this stuff. It IS completely irrelevant to the issues we're facing. But the point needs to be made that the moral criticism of the heartland for the coasts is every bit as 3T, if not more so, as the behavior they're criticising.


Marc Lamb wonders how does a zoned out culture that embraces all things Mona Lewinsky, Britney Spears, N-Sync et al suddenly shift into a "red-white-and-blue zone" ready to for a "sustained and effective" effort, endured with "patience" and firm "resolve," "because the course to victory may be long"?


Brian Rush suggests that we've been ready to do so for longer than many might suspect, and have merely been waiting for a galvanizing issue to rally 'round. Now we have one.

Brian, it's too exhausting right now to try and argue a point intellectually from the other side when emotionally I'm on the opposite. So I'll resort to the Xer "whatever" and let it be.

For those who were curious, I've tallied the Senate as best I can from the info on their websites. Most of them actually give birthyears, but a few are less forthcoming. Of the definite birthyears, 5 are GIs, 41 are Silent, and 41 are Boomers, though one Boomer is late '60. Of the rest, I could only go on appearances, which are sometimes deceiving. If anyone knows the ages of these, we can fill in the gaps: Brownbeck (looks Boomer), Bunning (looks Silent), Carnahan (looks Silent), Allen (looks Boomer), Bond (no idea), Boxer (I was thinking she was Silent, but no clues at the website), Hutchinson (I believe she's Silent, but again no clues at her website), Inhofe (no idea), Kerry (he looks very cuspish and I know we've talked about him before, but no clues at the website), Craig (no idea), Wyden (looks Boomer), Schumer (he was mentioned earlier and looks very cuspish), and Specter (isn't he Silent?) In a few cases, I based birthyear on their being either 18 at high school graduation or 22 at college graduation. In only one case (F. Thompson) would it make a difference as to generation; if he turned 18 in the fall, he's Silent and Boomer if he turned 18 in the spring.

I shall try to do the same with the House, but obviously it will take longer.

Bunning and Carnahan are definitely silent.

Lis, I don't want to get into an extended discussion, but believe me, blue zone 16-20 year olds have been Millenialized nearly to death. By their parents.

David

so much has been said about the silents still around; powell, rumsfield, etc. but they seem more comfortable with the call to arms then does bush to me...g. bush seems a bit like a puppet from the beginning...for mostly business interest...but a puppet none the less.

so, i'm not sure how that fits the roles for the crisis.

surely the terrorists' goals include hoping for a military response so that civil war will erupt in pakastan, egypt, tunisa, morocco and certainly s. arabia. and likely the military response will do just that; if not immediately then in a year or so.

we will look back in a couple of years, in the middle of a major war-like crisis and know the turning has happened. and the attempt to resolve the issues debated during the summer and autumm will continue...drilling in the artic etc.

Mr. Strauss, I agree that Falwell and Par Robertson are still in a 3T mindset, but that does not justify what they said at all. I think they should immediately be taken off the air. We need to show them what a 4T is about!

I think they should immediately be taken off the air. We need to show them what a 4T is about!


On the contrary. I think letting them make fools of themselves is pretty useful . . .


Seriously, Robert, things would have to get more serious than they did in the last couple of Crises before we so blatantly violate free speech. Even Lincoln never did that. It's possible to to too far in a 4T-ish direction and turn ourselves into complete fascists. No need at this point.

We don't need to violate free speech by taking them off the air. There are other ways, such as telling people to not watch the show, and that they are trying to split America apart. The last thing we need is people putting blame on people whom they have hatred for. To me, what they committed was "verbal terrorism".

I find this site to be very informative and interesting and appreciate the opportunity to see the authors view points as it relates to the 4T. I think we all benefit from their wisdom and knowledge.
Just a few observations; WWI was billed as " the War to end all Wars" and now I hear my Boomer President state we are to rid the world of evil. As a Genx'er (66) my pragmatic side says 'we were just attacked by people with boxcutters'. I don't know that we are ready for the great challenge that our President has in mind. I love our President and America but I don't think people realize what we are in for if they are planning an all out assault on evil.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu recently compared bin Laden to a squadron leader on a Japanese carrier in WWII. He made the point that we won that war by taking out the carriers not squadrons. If we are going after the carriers (host nations) then this is surely the beginning of the crisis and I believe the catalyst was the failure of the peacetalks at Camp David a year ago. If we are just going after the squadron leader then we are stumbling towards a crisis era and have not made the turn yet. As S&H have repeately said, it is our reaction to events that determine the turnings.
Given the enormous size of this attack and the horrific results, my gut says we will take out the carriers. This may be the great mission of the boomer generation. I pray we are ready.

I think that this is really it. This is the 4T. I don't think there can be any going back. But can the current synergy be sustained? No.

Before I get into this, I want to make a reply to those who said that a 3T to 4T change is much more dramatic than the other turning transitions. But I have to respectfully disagree. It does not have to be traumatic. Dumping tea into the ocean certainly is not a traumatic event, nor is a national election. And a stock market crash is not a traumatic event. However, this turning change is traumatic because of the severity. This 4T (assuming that it didn't begin with E2K) began unusually severe. Only the 0S-4T (War of the Roses) and the 2S-4T (Glorious Revolution) had catastrophic catalysts. In fact, the 2S-4T had by far the most catastrophic catalyst ever.

Because the catalyzing event for this 6S-4T (Millennial Crisis) is catastrophic, I think we have been pushed not to the beginning, but temporarily somewhere past the regeneracy. But at this early stage, the regeneracy is not sustainable, so that will fade away. But we have crossed the line, I believe, and the 3T is gone for another ~63 years. When the shock wears off, the synergy will go away, but there will be fierce arguments that will finally put an end to the culture wars.

More points (I'm reading TV, a great third turning novel, today, but I keep coming back here, too. It's about ABC sports, basically.)
About traumatic events: I don't think it was the tea in 1774, it was the arrival of the British troops that followed. It isn't really an exaggeration to say that the colonists reacted to that the way we have reacted to this. (Incidentally, I taught the American Revolution to thirteeners last week and if they had been representative Americans we'd still be British! This week would probably be differnet, of course.)

John Brown's raid (and the reactions to it) was traumatic, as was Dred Scott, which said to the North, you must have slavery, too. The Stock Market crash was traumatic. The fall of the Bastille was traumatic. So was the British Indian Mutiny. So was the Franco-Prussian War. Etc. And so was the Assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand, beginning the Austrian and Russian crises, which is the closest parallel to this one (state-sponsored terrorism.)

So I think traumatic events are normal triggers for fourth turnings.

Now I want to post an excerpt from instant messaging between a Boomer and his *Millennial son, who attends George Washington university. Both have varying degrees of familiarity with the theory.

Dad: I am worried about an incident at a sports event,
by the way. Very worried.
Son: dad, any thousand of incidents could take place
in any thousands of locations. taking a bomb into the metro at
rush hour would be just about the easiest thing imaginable, but
you have to live your life
Dad: I agree.
Dad: (Spoken like a Hero.)
Son: yeah, right
Dad: Right.
Son: trachtenberg [President of GW] gave a speech at a vigil all about
how he thought our generation were giong to do even better
than the GIs
Dad: No Kidding!
Dad: Did it sound like he had read the book?
Son: i seriously doubt it. its a fairly easy parallel to
make, without the book
Dad: I'm not so sure. Very interesting. Would you like
to post that at www. fourthturning.com?
Son: i have no desire to, no
Dad: OK. I guess I will.

So I did.


One last point: many thanks for the post from Hollywood. I like the statement, "I've spent my whole life preparing to do something meaningless--what now?" I particularly like it because most of the Congress could utter it as well!

The voice that echoes from this group is always so amazing and so brilliant. All of you are awesome. I'm a long-time periodic lurker to this site and feel the need to make a few points in the wake of 911:

1) It's easy to fall prey to groupthink. I have a number of times in my life. It is true that all of us have been given this 4t knowledge and prophecy that others do not have. But remember, knowledge and prophecy fade with autumn colors.
2) Eventually cyclic seasonal patterns shift into different climates. Some scientists believe that many climate shifts in Earth's history happened quickly, as rapidly as one season.
3) Battles of good vs. evil are also battles of evil vs. good, as well as righteous vs. righteous. "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." (Luke 6:29)
4) I shifted into the 4T mood two years ago due to stress in my life. From many of your writings, it seems like the mood shift may have occurred for many of you also in the recent past. Squall lines precede the brunt of a hurricane; and remember the eye of the hurricane is peaceful.
5) The nature of Globalism will affect the onset, progression and outcome of this 4T. This turning will be different than all others. "On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?" (Gospel of Thomas:11)
6) Trees can only grow so tall. There is always a threshold to the cycle of life (or the cycle of death) and the cycles of culture. Douglas-firs grow no taller than ~380 ft. When you look at the rings of a fallen tree, a pattern is evident, similar to the four turnings. A) Individual rings fade from light (quick spring growth) to dark (slow fall growth). B) Rings vary in size. C) Growth is halted over winter. D) Ironically, when you can see the rings, the tree is dead. "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish." (Gospel of Thomas:40)
7) However easy, however difficult: Love is the solution. "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew 12:11)

Whether this is the beginning or a precursor, we will know soon.

Dave '71

I believe very much that we have entered the 4T as of 9-11-01. Most of the action and rhetoric I have heard the last few days seem to indicate that we have entered 4T.

Politically and globally, we are heading for much grimmer and more challenging periods of history. What makes me think that this is 4T related is the nature of the most recent attack and the people behind it, as well as the reaction of the people afterward. The 911 attack was 3T in nature, but the motivation behind it appears to be 4T. The hijackers who attacked us were motivated to to this as a holy war and were attacking what they perceived to be "Satanic" to their way of life. Even the atrocious actions of Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War were territorial in nature and had a tangible purpose behind it. We demonized Saddam Hussein as a tyrant, and while this may have been justified, it was obvious that his invasion of Kuwait was motivated by his desire to control the flow of oil from the region and to solidify his economic and political power. Even the sanctions we imposed against Iraq have not been able to wrest Saddam from power and may have brought more immense suffering to the Iraqi people.

What disturbs me about the 911 attack is that the aggressors do not seek monetary gain or sympathy to their cause and are hell bent on destroying our way of life and want to bring back what they perceive to be the ultimate utopian Islamic civilization, which in reality is very reactionary. They do not believe in any tolerance for any other race, relgion or creed, and this reminds me very much of Hitler.

As for the culture wars in the USA, I believe that the left wing has mostly won this, but the right wing can also take some credit. I believe that in the 4T, any policies and cultural norms which promote tolerance and equality (racial harmony, gender equality, acceptace of homosexuals, narrowing the income gap) will be heavily promoted as necessary to the survival of our nation, but those which promote extreme individual expression or destructive behavior will not be tolerated at all. I also agree with some of the other posts that Hollywood movies and TV shows will be less edgy and more escapist and/or patriotic. I believe popular music will go the same way. Rap and hip-hop were already heading away from the most extreme edginess (gagnsta rap anthems about killing cops and other gangbangers, "bitches and hoes") after the death of Tupac Shakur and Notorious B.I.G. and toward a more materialistic pose (about lifestyles involving luxury cars, jacuzzis, champagne, etc.), and I believe it will drift even further from that. I could very easily see Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera playing USO shows or their equivalent, and we may even see the biggest pop stars of the last decade (Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Garth Brooks, etc.) go from performing and/or writing syrupy love songs to creating the next great anthems of our history. Some people may joke about the last statement, but then again, they were artists who for the most part had bucked the 3T tendency for edginess that was popular among their grunge, hip-hop and Lillith Fair peers. Transport Mariah, Celine and Garth back to the last Crisis (1930's) and envision them singing "God Bless America" or "This Land Is Your Land." Can you see the possible parallels? I can. Would Kurt Cobain have been able to do this if he were still alive today? Possibly, but his mindset would have had to anticipate 4T.

Sports will also be drastically changed. The current 3T mentality of large free agent money, endorsements, and SportsCenter highlight films will be drastically curtailed, and people will demand better conduct from professional sports players and teams. Allen Iverson may currently be one of the most popular players in the NBA, but fans will demand more character and loyalty from their players, and this is reflected in players like Kobe Bryant and Vince Carter. Structurally, the NBA anticipated 4T in their most recent collective bargaining agreement, which actually rewards star players more for staying with their own teams during free agency than going elsewhere. Major League Baseball will not continue to allow unchecked spending on players and new taxpayer-funded stadiums because the economics will not be there to support it. In fact, they may have to consolidate and/or eliminate unprofitable franchises, as the TV networks may no longer spend as much for broadcast rights. The generall attitude of sports fans towards sports will turn away from the 3T mindset of magnified civic pride and more toward the 4T mindset of entertaining diversion.

Here is another commentary:

<font color="blue">
Jihad in America and Islamic glee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By David Dolan
? 2001 WorldNetDaily.com


This is one of the most difficult reports I have ever written. I debated waiting a bit to send it out, due to the deep grieving that is still gripping my native land as decaying bodies are dug up from the rubble of the destroyed World Trade Center, and as people gather for a special national day of prayer. But it was precisely the day of prayer that led me to send this out now, so that it might play a role in some people's intercession on this mournful day and during the traumatic times that lie ahead.

I have been probing the reaction of some personal Islamic contacts to the horrendous terrorist assault upon America. The street celebrations that swept many Palestinian towns and other Arab centers throughout the Middle East accurately reflect the gleeful feelings of many Muslims, I was told. The reasons for this are chilling, to say the least.

Essentially, I have learned that many Muslims see the coordinated attacks upon New York and Washington as signaling the imminent end of American hegemony in the world. My sources say that Muslim fundamentalist states and groups, who have viewed the United States as the main world obstacle standing in the way of the spread of their faith for decades, began to perceive a way to bring down the great empire during the Vietnam War. They were greatly encouraged that a relatively weak Asian army could essentially defeat the awesome American military machine. They pointed out that the central method of warfare used by North Vietnam had nothing to do with matching U.S. military might, but consisted of demoralizing, deadly hide-and-seek guerilla attacks. After Saigon fell in 1975, many Muslims likened the humiliating superpower retreat to the ancient rogue assaults that eventually brought down the morally decadent Roman Empire. The more radical Muslim groups were also highly encouraged by the ability of Islamic militants to humiliate Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the early 1980s, seeing this as signaling the eventual triumph of militant Islam over communism as well.

I have uncovered much evidence over the past few months that the very lukewarm backing the West has given to tiny Israel in her long and bloody struggle against Islamic terrorism has further heartened many Muslims. Any Israeli military response to outrageous attacks upon civilian buses, shops, restaurants, etc., has usually been met with open rebukes from the "Christian" world. I suspect that the inability of much of the West to understand and fully back Israel's lonely fight is now coming back to haunt the free world.

My Muslim sources admit that the Gulf War was a serious setback to militant Islamic aspirations. The successful use of sleek and sophisticated weapons by the United States and its Western allies (especially Britain, which is almost equally hated by Islamic extremists even as the United Kingdom is used as a major staging ground for international operations) deeply humiliated America's manifold Muslim opponents. But it also redoubled their resolve to bring down the U.S. giant and then, later, deal with its powerful regional ally, Israel.

Soft underbelly

I was told that America's Islamic enemies concluded in the 1970s that the great United States could eventually be brought to its knees by internal guerilla-style terrorist strikes that would wreak emotional and economic havoc on the large country. America's gigantic warships, far-flung military bases, missile arsenals, international alliances and sophisticated satellite systems would prove basically useless to fight such a war, they surmised, and might even add to the chances of ultimate Islamic success, since they would give a false sense of security to the "arrogant" superpower.

As the '80s progressed, and even more so the computer-crazed '90s, Muslim militants realized that the main target for attack should be lower Manhattan, since that would severely injure the massive U.S. economy ? the key element in her international power and prestige. This conviction was strengthened by the internal collapse of the Soviet Union in the early '90s, leaving a shell of an empire that did not have enough money to sustain its global alliances and enormous military machine.

As many terrorism experts have already reported, I was told that Islamic cells have been quietly preparing for an internal attack upon New York (and also another key target, Washington) for many years. This confirms what I learned from an FBI source in the mid-'90s. Many regional Muslims understand that Osama bin Laden merely acts as an agent for several Islamic states who all hate America ? especially Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan and Sudan, along with militant groups in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and elsewhere in the sprawling Muslim world. They are convinced that he possesses several small nuclear "suitcase bombs" that were put together by the Soviet KGB. These are very low-level bombs compared to what America and several other countries deploy in their vast nuclear arsenals. However, they are perfect for achieving the Islamic militant's goal of striking surreptitiously at America's economic and political center ? and thus reducing the rest of the country, and indeed much of the world, to frantic emotional and economic panic and chaos.

If good portions of Manhattan and Washington, D.C., were suddenly reduced to rubble, where would America's surviving leaders order their military forces to strike in response? Would nuclear-tipped missiles be fired at Baghdad because they suspected that Saddam had a hand in the unprecedented, shadowy terrorist attacks? Would they level other Islamic states, or even the entire Muslim world, killing millions of civilians who had no say in what their despotic leaders might have sponsored? Would they strike at China, suspecting that the communist government in Beijing might have supported or sponsored such an attack?

I was told that Islamic nations believe they would suffer very minimal retribution for secretly sponsoring such a devastating blow on America, precisely because of high U.S. moral standards that would preclude massive strikes at mere suspect states. Thus, the classic Islamic method of focusing on clandestine terror cells that only answer to their immediate superiors ? whose members do not even themselves know who is ultimately behind their devious actions ? would basically succeed in dealing a huge blow to the United States without suffering much harm in return. (This is possibly best illustrated in miniature by the Pan Am terrorist attack that ended with the jet crashing into Scotland over 12 years ago, leaving nearly 300 people dead. The deadly assault has basically gone unanswered until this day, since the ultimate sponsors have never been clearly pinpointed.)

So this is where we now stand. I was told that the likelihood of more attacks upon America is very real, especially given what many Muslims perceive as the enormous success of this week's terrorist strikes. With the president's jet scrambling around the country in apparent fear, with the nation's representatives rushing out of the capital building two times in response to bomb threats, with a portion of the Pentagon itself destroyed, with many of the men and women who run the world's largest stock and bond market either dead or wounded, and, most importantly, with a sense of terrorized fear gripping many Americans, Islamic militants believe they have won a victory beyond their wildest dreams. As was the case with Israel's quick military retreat from Lebanon and inability to stop a year-long terrorist war, they feel that they are definitely on a winning, Allah-sanctioned roll.

If America is brought to its knees, the way is open for a new world order. Most militant Muslim states believe it will eventually feature them at the helm, especially if they can also subdue the increasingly powerful European Union. However, as I projected in my end-time novel, I suspect that it will be the EU that emerges as the new global leader when all of the dust settles, based on the apocalyptic prophecies found in the book of Daniel. However, I do not believe there is any biblical reason to say that the United States will disappear. My homeland has indeed displayed its share of arrogance and has exported much sin over the past few decades, along with many good and positive things. It surely is in need of some corrective judgment from the throne of the Lord, but not destruction, I believe. One thing is crystal clear: There is much room for prayer as this historic week comes to a close. </font>

The Muslims were probably surprised at our response, but they didn't realize that they attacked a nation that was already on the verge of 4T. Instead of our will being weakened, we will blast whoever did this, and whoever supports the terrorists to destruction.

David K'47 posted: Barbara, as a kind of center-leftist, I don't think the right has won the culture wars. I do think they are over, and I've said all along that the 4T would end them, as it did in 1928. They have opened up American culture. Cohabitation and homosexuality are never going to be crimes again. Women won't be restricted to the home in our lifetime. (I'm curious that although you proclaim yourself a conservative, you apparently both mothered and worked, a fairly unusual pattern for an early Silent like yourself.)

Well, perhaps(?) then, David, there is ALWAYS a progressive / liberal shift that wins every Culture War, so far that is, and it doesn't matter how far back to conservative we go in 3T's. That was one of the questions I was posing. Certainly, the culture is much more open than when I was a young adult. On that I do agree. If that is what determines who wins the Culture Wars (more open or not), then I do see that. Or does one look at all the Awakening wanted to do and then gauge their success v. the 'other' sides' success?

I may be confused as to the rules here; because what I also see is that while the last 3T's progressive gains practically slammed into its 4T with little cooling down beforehand, this 3T has not been that way, nor I might argue the 3T prior to the Civil War crisis. We have had much more of a conservative foreshadowing in this current 3T, and it makes me wonder what effects it causes on the subsequent crisis and/or high. It might help it be less traumatic, for all we know. I still think it a valid question. :wink:

David, I am an old-time pre-Reagan conservative who may now or may not be open to a Third Way but don't want to admit it, perhaps somewhat because of elder-year introspection and definitely because of my utter distaste for noncivic/noncivil, ultra-competitive, and greedy political behavior. I was once a true believer in unfettered free-market capitalism until I saw it practiced in a way that belittles the outward appearance of responsibility and conscience. Now I know why it needs controls, although I stop short at knowing the right mix.

I have never concerned myself much by what the 'other' side has done to 'deserve' retaliation (aka tit for tat), although no one should make the mistake that because I was a teacher that I support the evolution of educational bureacracy. I am very tolerant and have always concentrated on the individual, not the label, but I am not a liberal. I am pro-English First, anti-bilingual education, pro-Immersion, pro-controlled immigration, anti- unfettered multiculteralism without a melting pot emphasis (because I believe it is detrimental to many in long run and wasteful of my tax dollars to maintain); YET, I am also against attempts to abandon public education and in favor of making these changes within the existing framework. I am anti-libertarian as to cultural issues - - human nature being what it is, it won't work without societal rules and legal laws.

More to the point, I am probably best described as an alienated conservative at present, who has sought signs, anything that could give me hope that my once-Party of Lincoln sees its errors and self-modulates. Perhaps I will in this 4T, perhaps. I am not alone, BTW, and I think that there are many people from different political spectra who feel this same alienation. It could be I am just fooling myself and that I am in fact a conservative no more; as the very definition of it has changed over the last 20 years. But, since I am most comfortable in a conservative culture and am want to preserve it, there doesn't seem to me anywhere else to go and be any more conforming.

As a teacher and a parent I adapted to the times, but my years of living in the Crisis and the High were my happiest when I look at it within a citizenship and a family context. (Of course, this is also said in hindsight :smile. I suppose I'm a victim of the times in which I've lived. I have seen a time when Labor and Business DID coexist and each keep their dignities and abilities to prosper. I always want that time again, I suppose.

David, as to your curiosity about my juxtapositions in life, yes, I am a paradox. :lol: My father, being a business owner, perhaps uncharacteristically for the times, instilled in me the work ethic. However, because of my times, TEACHING was practically the only work allowed me. You can now understand that, can't you? It was the easiest way for me to obtain that outlet for work expression, and at the same time marry and parent.

From the article Robert posted:

"Islamic nations believe they would suffer very minimal retribution for secretly sponsoring such a devastating blow on America, precisely because of high U.S. moral standards that would preclude massive strikes at mere suspect states."

I find this an extremely ironic statement for they of the high morals to say about the Great Satan.

I also believe them to be fatally wrong. There is no person alive who does not have capacity for evil in the purely ethical (not religious) sense. Most of us just exert an effort most days to suppress such inclinations. However, if pushed hard enough, even the best of people can get to the point of reveling in seeing their enemies' blood splattered on a wall.

Ms. Liz, you are a sweetheart, and I will think of something, somehow to reward your efforts. Other than just thanks! :smile: :smile: :smile:

Mr. K. thinks, "Lis, I don't want to get into an extended discussion, but believe me, blue zone 16-20 year olds have been Millenialized nearly to death. By their parents."

As I live in the red zone I can say for certain that this is not the case here in the heartland. For instance, just a few years ago I produced a marketing video for a local school district trying to pass a new elementary building levy. Only problem was, in order to recieve matching funds from the state, the new elementary school was to be built next to the present Jr./Sr. high school.

No go said the residents. They were not going to suffer their little angels anywhere near those 15-18 years.

Anyway, this is going to be an Xer grunt war. It will be fought by the young Mr. Justins (our 4T posting friend in now studying in Copenhagen) born circa 1975-81. Am I correct?

They will be led by Boomers/Jonsers like me, born circa 1955-70. Still correct?

And finally, the generals etc... in this conflict will be Silents and early wave Boomers.

And ummmmm... I just totally forgot where I was going with this...


more later..., I'm goin' shoppin' k!

Posted by Ted Hudson '47 on the Is the 4th Turning Coming thread : 2001-09-15 13:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, here are the House numbers; they add up to 434, so I probably missed one. Close enough for government work.

GOP plus Independent Goode:

GI 3
Silent 66
Boom 128
13th 24

Democrats plus Independent Sanders:

GI 1
Silent 76
Boom 124
13th 12

If you add the 5 Democratic non-voting commissioners and delegates representing territories like Guam and Washington, DC, add one Silent and four Boomers.

Make of these numbers what you will, but looks like the Dems are marginally more mature.

With so many great posts here, I will pass over the urge to comment on them, and let them stand.

Here's something else, though: I didn't see this on TV myself (my wife told me about it), but apparently some hijackers spent their final mortal night, preparatory to their attack on the evil decadent West, in .... a strip club. Netanyahu was voicing the view (says my wife) that these were not so much holy warriors as just plain thugs. The idea being that rather than any grand strategy to goad America to do anything, the attacks are simply the outlet of years of trying to find a way to hurt the U.S. While originally of ideological origin, the prime driver at this point may have been just doing it to prove they could. It sends a confusing message: they were willing to die to harm the U.S., but were participating in the evil culture to the hilt on their last night on Earth. If true, this is indeed odd. Or is it just very very hypocritical?

Whether or not that is true to any extent: the fact remains that the U.S will continue to be vulnerable to multiple horrific terrorist threats. There really is no way to get lucky every single time in stopping them. As has been mentioned, they only have to succeed once, we have to succeed every time. That's a no-win proposition for us, as long as all we do is defend the home front. The only way to combat terrorism, ultimately, is unfortunately to eliminate the terrorists where they exist. This cannot be done without our goal being twisted to suit whomever harbors ill will towards America, and justifying the increasing spiral of violence.

The airline industry was vulnerable all along, and most of us knew it and knew we were lucky all that time. Even the suspicious accidents were hushed up and not allowed to affect the national mood. Now, airline travel and world travel is changed. I hate that, because that freedom is so important to me. In past years, we talked on this site of taking advantage of traveling in the 3T, before the 4T arrived. Now the change has come. It doesn't mean we can't and won't travel, but the carefree nature of it is gone.

I've been posting too much, which is why I got off the site for so many months. I need to ease up now, too. One more thought for now: I think the 4T era is here. Raw personal pursuit has been tinged with the awareness of America in one's mind, and not just as a form of entertainment or complaint, that can be tuned out at one's discretion. No, America looms large in the mentality now, in a 4T way.

To those still ready to criticize in 3T style: the time will soon come when the luxury of being "above it all" will be replaced by the feeling of being trapped in the situation, with no clear way out. This will be the 4T, and smugness will be a thing of the past.

So far, I haven't heard anyone state the obvious. Our society is so unsustainable, so complex and interdependent that a couple of dozen crazy people could do this. It's surreal that terrorists move freely within our country, register and take classes from our schools to learn to fly. (FlightSafety and Embry/Riddle are top institutions, then they steal our commercial jets and fly them into our commercial buildings.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sv81 on 2001-12-31 23:14 ]</font>

I still stick by my many-pages-ago thesis that this Crisis will be comparatively changed by these three things:

1. Increased lifespan - we will see Silents in power longer. If this be the 4T, we are already seeing this.

2. America's First Globalist Power Saeculum - we are experiencing the ramifications of GloboCop, some say stemming from 1947.

3. The MTV Gen and Informative Age - these are proving to be formidable. I include the Internet here, as well. "Americans (and Global Citizens) glued to their TV's", then "Americans (and Global Citizens) communicate on the Internet".

I take issue with the idea that free thought and freedom of speech will be so sharply curtailed as to be snuffed out. To the contrary, is my belief. It has been posted to the effect that dissenting views or criticisms will be judged as 3T luxuries? No. What happens during a 4T is that national issues, positions get decided. This usually happens during the first part of a 4T, but can continue throughout. Isolated incidences of backlash against free speech always occur no matter the turning time frame. This current 911 reaction mood of unity is a reaction to the issue of patriotism, and love and defense of country and countryfolk. There will be many, many, many more debates. I think it unwise to assume or fear it's the beginning of the end for free speech and critical thought during the Crisis. It may have to be couched within patriotic terms (and therein lies the evolution back towards civility), but it will and must remain. That's what we are all about. It comes first, before providing for a common defense. Now, once we are down the long road of 4T into the shorter climax phase and the issues are decided, THEN we may all be asked to conform that sharply. But we are nowhere near that. We still have much to talk about as a nation. It's not that simple.

A commentator on CNN did a excellent job of reminding us that a society can move forward with internal conflict. Lincoln feared being swept from office, until the tide of the Civil War began to turn. During WW II, Congress grumbled about the broad expanse of executive power. We're not looking for total consensus, just a lifting of the Culture Wars inspired gridlock.

RichT, sounds like you have changed your tune. Wasn't it you who, just about two days ago, was so skeptical that we had entered the 4T ?

What convinced you?

On 2001-09-15 18:05, Susan Brombacher wrote:
RichT, sounds like you have changed your tune. Wasn't it you who, just about two days ago, was so skeptical that we had entered the 4T ?

What convinced you?

No, not I. Perhaps one of my many sentences hinted that way, but not in context of my overall comments. See my posts again on this and the other 9-11-01 thread, to see what I think. (I think it was the 4T catalyst, but that we have a few years before the issues congeal into a full-blown 4T.)