How does _Dune_ foreshadow the Awakening, though? I'm not sure I follow you here.

In a number of ways, actually. Paul Atreides is a classic Prophet figure, although in some ways the large-scale action is more 4T than 2T. But the prophecy, the psychic powers, the questioning of traditional values, and the ecological themes, all foreshadow either 2Ts in general or the MilSaec 2T specifically. Dune was published in the early 1960s I believe, so it was quite close in time. Same with Stranger.

But they _don't_ share the same values, except in so far as they both condemn such things as adultery and murder.

I disagree. The similarity runs far deeper than that. Recall the list of core evangelical values I posted on another thread: literal Biblical inerrancy, unique Christian salvation, rejection of other religions, and sexual puritanism. Fundamentalist Islam is identical on all points except that one must substitute Islam and the Koran for Christianity and the Bible.


(Everybody opposes murder.)

The Taliban _expressly_ seeks a literal theocracy. Their version of clergy, in their ideal state, would not just have greater power than the government, they would _be_ the government.


The American RR, in spite of all the propaganda the media spin out, _don't_ wish that!

The more extreme American RR voices, such as Pat Robertson, want an express theocracy every bit as much the Taliban, which is on the extreme end of fundamentalist Islam. Robertson is, for instance, on record as saying that only Christians should be allowed to run for public office.


It is very possible -- no, actually it is quite likely, that the Muslim fundamentalists tend to greater extremes than the Christian ones. I know of no Christian groups that would go as far as the Taliban, and likely there is greater moderation across the board among Christians than among Muslims. If I were to guess at a cause, it would be because American Christians live in gentler circumstances and have less cause to be mad at the world. But in any case, this difference is only one of degree.

One does not have to agree with them to recognize that they are driven, in their own way, by a love of country.

Correct. And that should be made clear. I am not suggesting that anyone is a traitor. It is only a similarity of value systems at work here, not complicity in a crime or even sympathy for criminals.

That's the common Boomer/Prohet/Idealist outlook, if Strauss and Howe are accurate in their analysis. We'll just have to agree to disagree here, because on this issue I agree with the RR that God is external to humans.

Actually it's not limited to Prophets by any means. (For that matter, I would venture a guess that there are more Boomer fundies than any other generation, by percentage.)


Whether God is external or internal or both is something beyond rational knowledge. All I'm saying is that God is found within. Whether God is something separate from the universe, as Christian doctrine holds, or the spirit that animates the universe, as in the Hindu mythos, it remains true that God is the foundation and source of our being, and it is at that foundation and source that He/She/It may be found.


This by the way is not at all incompatible with evangelical thought. What is incompatible, however, is the recognition that both the Christian and the Hindu doctrine (plus many others) are metaphors for a Reality that can't be known, and as such each is equally valid. Indeed, each serves as a good counterpoint to the other, so that we can avoid the error of thinking our model a literal truth rather than a metaphor.


The infinite cannot fit into a box. You cannot drink the ocean; you can only swim in it.

I suspect that the Taliban/Bin Laden, if they were grading societies on the basis of how secular they were, would assign current Iran a B-, Saudi Arabia a C, an RR dominated America a D-, and secular America an F.

Hmm. I don't know about the Taliban, but by all accounts bin Laden hates the Saudis even more than he does the U.S. Secular governments ruling Muslims are especially anathema.


So I think we would have to grade a hypothetical American Christian state above the government of any Muslim country except Afghanistan and Iran. But certainly no better than a B, as it would be Christian rather than Muslim.


Make that a C, give the Taliban an A, Iran a B, a few other governments of Muslim nations a D, and the rest of the world an F.

I think 911 is most likely what will one day be seen as the catalyst, but it is too soon to be *sure*. Even if the other shoe does not drop and there is no followup terrorist act on the scale of 911 (a fairly big if), this will shape all of Bush's term, taking us right up to Jan 2005 when even the authors "schedule" the 4T. Perhaps you might consider a special "posting day" on October 11, to go over the ten signs of a 4T listed at the beginning of this topic and see how they are/aren't showing up in the first month. Maybe that will give us some perspective, when the initial adrenaline rush is over?
Just a suggestion...

Pat Mathews

I'm not going to quote Skytrax's long essay, but simply argue with the Silent reaction to
the 911. I for one kept right on working, cleaning house, wrote a check for the Red Cross, tried to get through to the blood bank, ordered new windows for my house from my across-the-street neighbor who is from India, wrote a letter to the college paper
(I work at a university) urging that we find out precisely who ordered this atrocity before we jump, and on the way to church mentally wrote a blessing on each generation facing this thing. I guess that's just sitting and staring in too much shock to get off my fat 60-something ass.

I qouted because your response was short. Not trying to be as provocative as my post was I can only say "your a real pip". Yes the specific silent parent of this baby buster/early genxer engaged in a firestorm of activity too. Many large purchases were ordered, she managed to get through to the blood bank, made it too church a couple of times, a regular habit anyway. The main anecdote I could pass along is this qoute "this is a lot like WWII." On the other hand generational analysis is not her cup of tea. With all due respect you sound more like an activated early boomer who hasn,t faded away and still likes to get riled which is a good thing. As far as identifying the specific bad actors who launched the attack, I find that many people are delaying acceptance that this is war. Not a surgical exercise. In recent history so much blathering has occured on a political level that, thats a logical assumption. But the unthinkable has occured. Yet professional analyst's have been warning a long time about just such an attack. Having resided across the river with the ny skyline visible out my bedroom window it is clear the unthinkable has occured. If I had a ufo experience that would be more logical. Even a butt probing grey alien sex party would be more believable. I always thought in the usual morbid xer way if those towers came down I would get fried in the same nuclear blast being two miles across the river.
When I said shock about silent people I meant thinking that this will be like world war two. The silent gener I was thinking about is 70. The total mid-gen archtype who fits this works description to a tee. She had the activity response but not the questioning response or the metaphysical thoughts of peace/well being projection. That would be totally alien to the archtype-though I may be mistaken.
But I greatly admire your resilience. To me and from what I read of other posters its always the late of one type who lead the early wave of the new type in a sort of subtle critical mass sort of way. But all silent types are great counter debaters when dealing with younger people whereas boomers/hippies simply insult your xy or z. Until 9/11 that is. Because they are the magority of leaders and they were caught napping, which is excusable considering the unbelievable nature of events. My well thought out hunch goes to another posters allusions to the blood fued theme between the bushes and the husseins.
Eventually I believe bush shall hold to his word and pursue the 4-7 nations that got away with terrorism in the past. Better now than when they get nuclear capabilities. Though I never turn a blind eye to the endless manipulation of public opinion, I believe as time settles in the enormity of the attack will continue to motivate the general mood as opposed to your well reasoned idea that we might stop at arresting or killing a few key terrorists. I guess thats what will decide if this is the big event or trigger of the big event that changes the rhythum of history, whether it is a concrete solution/resolution or more band aids. They have kicked america in the ankle enough times in the past to have us limping slightly when it rains. But, manhattan is our sacred temple of civilized behavior even if its been a little gruff and unpolished in the past. Even the U.N is there. One last thought about the silent archtype. Mine was quite accepting of the war idea even with many grand children to worry about. Whereas I favored rapid nuclear retaliation on Kabul Bhagdad Tripoli Damascus Khartoum Sanaa as a warm up with a pause to turn over any terrorists who survived the first round. Which actually might have happened if a mysterious caller had not telephoned with security codes they wern't supposed to have which caused the rerouting of the presidents plane. One never knows how close we came. But blowing up manhattan is really uncool. Totally bad form.
Of course my nuclear fantasy passed within a few hours of the attack although I,m holding out hope we keep open the option of tactical nukes rather than waste americas youth on a bunch of radicals who would kill their sister for losing her virginity. Just my provocative opinionating.

Qoute

A few random thoughts on 3T/4T, WWI or WWII, Harper's Ferry or Gettysburg, just where
does 911 fall on the scale?


I think it broke the scale.
Tally for WTC is 6400 aprox.
Pearl Harbor was 1998 killed
D-Day casulties if facts serve me correctly were 4400 or there abouts on day one and 40000 for the eight days it took to secure the general area. With 294,000 total for WWII

Skytrax, I think your figures have some problems. Every Pearl Harbor figure I've ever seen was over 2000. And your D-Day figure must be all casualties--killed, wounded, missing.

The other night at a party, "Holiday" by Madonna came on, and I got really sad.
Because I remember how kind of carefree those days were. Ive always been nostalgic about the 80s. This is because Boomers try to forget them, first wave Xers despise them, and Millies dont remember them.
Its like a secret decade that was good to only a few of us.
Someone I knows father was killed in those attacks.
But a new attitude came to me.
Screw them.
Screw the terrorists.
If were gonna go at any minute then Im not going to let my last days be spent in paranoia. Im going to live my life to have fun.
I dont know about you guys, but we really dont have a mission here.
Ending terrorism...yeah its a mission, but bombing afghanistan...what good will that do.
We should bomb them with food.
What about an impending energy crises, what about the fact that we STILL have 2 million in jail, many for nonviolent drug offenses.
What about the fact that we still dont have any solutions to very big problems and it doesnt look like theres going to be any.
We are still in a third turning.
And Europe is definitely still in a Third Turning.
This is like the first sign of winter where you start getting the warm clothes out, stocking up on firewood etc.
I think Bushs vision will falter, we will get ourselves in an unwinnable mess in afghanistan, due to Silent leadership, and we will sink deeper into a third turning. More apprehensive about celebrity culture, and narcissism, but still with that feeling of helplessness that characterizes the 3rd Turning.
Other than giving blood, is there anything you can really do.

A few random thoughts:

First, the national ID card thing gives me the willies, but they've been using our SS# for that for years now. I can see the pros of having one now, but we may live to regret that one.

Second, I just can't let that comment that Boomers are in favor of this war now that they can sit back and watch and don't have to fight. Had Vietnam been a cause Boomers believed in, they'd have gone willingly...and to those of you who are newer to the site, I give you Texas' war of independence, fought almost entirely by a Prophet generation during a 2T.

Three, I bristle at the idea that anyone specifically knew the attack was coming. Sure, we all knew something was coming, but to suggest that anyone knew the exact nature and timing is preposterous to me. Having read much on the topic, I don't believe Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor either (though in this case, someone would have had to know about the stock market crash in 1929 to make direct comparison).

Fourth, any thoughts among you about some of the media banning the wearing of American flag lapel pins by reporters or the use of the word terrorist? I find both those reponses very 3T...and pretty disfavorably looked upon by the majority of people.

One other item.

I get pretty annoyed when I hear people demand that our government "tell us everything" when we are invovled in international conflict or war. They CAN'T tell us everything, because if they did, the enemy would know, and keeping the enemy in the dark is of paramount importance. Any logical person knows this and accepts it.

Well, thanks, Skytrac - I think. Early Boomer? Sorry; born 1939. But in college (long story) when Kennedy was shot. I used to think my ex-husband and I, 18 months apart in age, were 18 years apart in outlook. Part of it's the Myers-Brigs thing: he's an SJ Guardian (Traditionalist) and I tested out INTP - Rational (like Jefferson, Lincoln, and Einstein; no conceit in MY family :smile:. But as a mother and later a single woman, I do what must be done, and Crisis - like being hanged in the morning - focuses one's mind marvelously.

The more extreme American RR voices, such as Pat Robertson, want an express theocracy every bit as much the Taliban, which is on the extreme end of fundamentalist Islam. Robertson is, for instance, on record as saying that only Christians should be allowed to run for public office.

As someone who worked for the Robertson presidential campaign, I would just like to note that he doesn't necessarily think that officially. Sometimes - like all people - he says things before he thinks about them. Then he regrets having said them.

In any event let us not think that all people of Christian faith in America - and even everyone in the RR - think the same thing as some of the extremists among them! There are shades even to the RR.

First, the national ID card thing gives me the willies, but they've been using our SS# for that for years now. I can see the pros of having one now, but we may live to regret that one. (Lis '54)

It's the Artist generation that will regret it, and the Prophet generation of the next Awakening that will rebel against it. (Or some similar pattern.)

Has anyone ever watched "Barney" with your kids?... Think about *THAT* in the context of the 4T. Today's "lesson" was that the kids could do the stuff they wanted to do all by themselves just by following directions...

I am very surprised that I haven't seen anything on Sesame Street or Barney or any of the other shows dealing with kids' reaction to the Towers bombing.

It's interesting if you compare modern children's shows with past children's shows. I remember watching Battle of the Planets and Star Blazers, both Japanimation. None of that on now... Or, remember the violent Transformers?. (Maybe I'm just not watching the right channels. Or perhaps it says something about me as an Xer/Nomad who protects my children from those kinds of shows?)

-> Terrorist events can make us suspicious of our neighbors. It could cause us to take a 4T route of retreating from globalization and racial diversity into homogenization.

-> One of the fastest selling items in San Francisco now, other than guns, is gas masks. How many of us are thinking about biological or chemical warfare?

-> Interesting: I see no stories in the news (yet) about building bunkers or people retreating to the hills, like we did in preparation for Y2K. Perhaps in a 4T we have a "all-for-one and one-for-all" mentality that precludes isolationist bunker-building.

-> Books by religious authors have taken up the "let's-all-help-each-other" thread. For example, Jim Bakker (yes, that Bakker) recently wrote a book called "The Refuge" which has very overt 4T themes (everyone come together, help each other, churches become community-help centers, etc). Tom Sine's "The Mustard Seed" also has 4T themes.

-> Even Economic themes are beginning to reflect 4T. No more speculation or rampant expectations, now focus is on bottom line, showing a profit, removing the hype, simplifying, looking at "real" businesses, etc.

I get pretty annoyed when I hear people demand that our government "tell us everything" when we are invovled in international conflict or war. They CAN'T tell us everything, because if they did, the enemy would know, and keeping the enemy in the dark is of paramount importance. Any logical person knows this and accepts it.

Another interesting tell-tale of a 4T. They didn't say that about Vietnam, as I understand it (but I'm a little young to remember that!!)

"As someone who worked for the Robertson presidential campaign...," confesses Mr. Long.

In case you haven't noticed, this is wrong website to confess such things, Mr. Long. Prepare thyself for the onslaught of abject hate that is surely to come.

"As someone who worked for the Robertson presidential campaign...," confesses Mr. Long.

In case you haven't noticed, this is wrong website to confess such things, Mr. Long. Prepare thyself for the onslaught of abject hate that is surely to come.

:smile: Hey I was young. I needed a job. I could type 120 wpm and they needed someone to type up schedules.

I *am* a Christian but wouldn't consider myself part of the religious right. However, for confession's sake, I have worked for Robertson, Bush's presidential campaign in a consulting role (again typing), Christian Coalition in a consulting role (programming donor base), and then I decided to get totally out of politics as it was giving me an ulcer (interesting Xer response) and into Christian missions, where I have remained ever since. And now, a friend-of-a-friend is sitting in Kabul in prison.

Another interesting 4T exercise: this is the year that the Lord of the Rings comes out. This is a classic tale about good v. evil, about massive wars, about the underdog winning in the end, about sacrifice, about the "little people," about high elves and dark treason... It is scheduled to be released in 3 parts over the next three years. Do you suppose this is a "bleed-over" art from 3T to 4T?

On 2001-09-25 07:22, JustinLong wrote:
Another interesting 4T exercise: this is the year that the Lord of the Rings comes out. This is a classic tale about good v. evil, about massive wars, about the underdog winning in the end, about sacrifice, about the "little people," about high elves and dark treason... It is scheduled to be released in 3 parts over the next three years. Do you suppose this is a "bleed-over" art from 3T to 4T?

There is another thread under "Culture" on Lord of Rings.

By the way, as a card-carrying member of the Blue Zone (Reform Jew, Democrat, Federal Government Employee, union member, etc...), I welcome this board because there are so many different types of views. I won't jump on you for working for Pat Robertson's campaign or for your beliefs, as long as you present them thoughtfully and civilly. If I disagree, I will post, but try not to be sarcastic or snide about it.

Welcome. Its jittery times. Red or Blue Zone, I'm proud to be an American.

Thanks Susan, I've successfully quoted someone.

Nifty!

So far... so good, Mr. Long. :smile:

Had Vietnam been a cause Boomers believed in, they'd have gone willingly

Some did believe, and they did go willingly. Some fought with considerable ferocity and heroism -- Prophets don't make the best soldiers, but they make fine warriors -- and are now highly decorated vets.


Marc Lamb is being paranoid. Working for Robertson is something to worry about only if and when he flies an airplane into a building or something.

On 2001-09-25 07:17, Marc Lamb wrote:
"As someone who worked for the Robertson presidential campaign...," confesses Mr. Long.

In case you haven't noticed, this is wrong website to confess such things, Mr. Long. Prepare thyself for the onslaught of abject hate that is surely to come.

Very funny, Marc! :lol:

"Also, Bush surely isn't GC. The thought is to puke for." Mr. Brian Rush

"Fundamentalism is now the enemy, whatever form it takes and whatever God it invokes." Mr. Brian Rush

"Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson can kiss my red white and blue ass." Ms. Lis '54

Are these thoughts "presented thoughtfully and civilly," Ms Genser? Or do reserve your ire only for those you disagree with?

On 2001-09-25 08:25, Marc Lamb wrote:

"Also, Bush surely isn't GC. The thought is to puke for." Mr. Brian Rush

"Fundamentalism is now the enemy, whatever form it takes and whatever God it invokes." Mr. Brian Rush

"Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson can kiss my red white and blue ass." Ms. Lis '54

Are these thoughts "presented thoughtfully and civilly," Ms Genser? Or do reserve your ire only for those you disagree with?

Hey,you forgot one: "Falwell and Pat Robertson should be tied to bin Laden's headquarters and blown into millions of little particles during the war!" -- Robert Reed. :smile:

Marc, wouldn't you rather have Alan Keyes as GC than Bush anyways?

I just saw an ad for Ovaltine, with fresh-faced kids gleefully drinking up the slop! If that doesn't portend 4T ....

What would Little Orphan Annie say?

"Falwell and Pat Robertson should be tied to bin Laden's headquarters and blown into millions of little particles during the war!" -- Robert Reed

And is this thought "presented thoughtfully and civilly," Ms Genser? Or do reserve your ire only for those you disagree with?

Sorry, Mr. Reed, I hadn't seen that one. :smile: