Marc, wouldn't you rather have Alan Keyes as GC than Bush anyways?



Nah, let's go all the way with Hilary Clinton.


:lol:

Brian, I stand corrected. Many did. It's just that the popular (but mistaken) conception among most Xers is that Boomers ran scared.

From plastic.com:

In the past two weeks, the Internet's role as the ultimate source of unmediated news has been matched only by its notorious ability to breed rumors, conspiracy theories and urban legends.
chunder writes "Most Plasticians seem both cynical and savvy enough to ignore many of the simplistic spam-mail this article highlights. The flurry of news and quasi-news articles about the terrorism has generated huge amounts of discussion here on Plastic. Am I alone in noticing a drop in the objectivity of the discussion, and an increase in the sensationalism? That is not surprising as the number of comments skyrockets, but I think Im seeing it from some of the editors as well. Am I wrong to expect reasonably accurate story headings and summaries (Clear Channel song list story, for example)? Is it OK to post stories and misrepresent their content, perhaps to generate lively discussion? Will Plastic shy away from this introspection?"

Is the Internet going to be the propaganda machine of the future? Remember the propaganda of the past - WW2-vintage. Kinda silly when we look back on it now, but some of the stuff on the Internet is similarly silly. Is this a 4T signpost?

ID Cards are de Rigueur worldwide

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47073,00.html

Wired magazine

This article talks about the pros and cons of identity cards. Hard to imagine America's press is giving this serious consideration. Five years ago this would have been laughed out of the room. But what kind of cultural conflict will this cause - ? Perhaps between south/midwest and "those liberal pinko commies" :smile: in the cities?

America is seriously divided over these issues, as was demonstrated in the last election. A terrorist attack does not make us quickly solve these problems. It only brings these problems into the foreground and makes us face them and battle with solutions as if we were battling for the soul of America.

People during this turning won't just be fighting for the "future of America" - some kind of sensationalized battle against terrorists as if somehow terrorists threatened all of America. What we will quickly move into is fighting for what America should become in the context of this new environment. What things constitute the heart of America, and what things are we willing to give up?

I felt a deep chill when I heard the words "Office of Homeland Security." Will this be the legacy of the 4T? Will it be disbanded when the terrorists are eradicated - or will the people of the next Awakening be battling the "thugs from Homeland Security?"

One article on Slashdot.org recently mentioned that hackers and crackers would fall under the terrorist legislation being considered...

Why liberty suffers in wartime
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,47051,00.html

Coalition to Congress: slow down
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46959,00.html
(not Christian Coalition, but a coalition of free speech groups)

Given the difficulty I had Saturday and Sunday ridding my computer of Nimda, I'm about ready to list virus launcing twits among "terrorists." ::grumble, grumble::

On 2001-09-25 08:25, Marc Lamb wrote:

"Also, Bush surely isn't GC. The thought is to puke for." Mr. Brian Rush

"Fundamentalism is now the enemy, whatever form it takes and whatever God it invokes." Mr. Brian Rush

"Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson can kiss my red white and blue ass." Ms. Lis '54

Are these thoughts "presented thoughtfully and civilly," Ms Genser? Or do reserve your ire only for those you disagree with?

Ah, Marc, if I posted everytime I disagreed with a comment, I'd never get anything done! That doesn't mean I don't cringe when I see those types of posts. And you may have noticed that on the Red Zone/Blue Zone thread, I've locked horns with my fellow Blue Zoner, Mr. Rush, on the percentage of Americans who are Blue Zone (I say about a quarter, he says about half).

Re: Lord of the Rings. The reaction to this movie will be extremely interesting -- it has several conflicting elements:

1. Tolkein wrote it 1939-1945, and it follows a classic S & H pattern for a Crisis. However, it is not a simple rehash of WWII. Prior to the start of action in LOTR, the danger has been growing for a long lifetime. LOTR even matches the S & H seasonal metaphor -- the Crisis begins at the end of fall, action takes place in winter, and final victory comes at the beginning of spring.

2. There is a very strong anti-technology message in the film. Gandalf uses only magic, as do the elves. Saruman uses technology -- "his mind is full of metal and wheels". Very 1960s, hippie stuff. Hobbits only use simple tools, and distrust technology.

3. Male forces of power defeat female-centered evil. Despite the heroism of one woman, this is no girl power movie. In fact, "purist" fans are very angry that one additional female character will be fighting.

4. Middle Earth is a spiritual world -- Tolkein was trying to capture the faith-centered environment of the Middle Ages.

5. Middle-Earth is so complete that Wired Magazine calls it the original "virtual reality" epic.

6. There is a *very* strong East = evil, West = good message. They were probably toning this part down to make it more PC. What now?

Pete observes "Male forces of power defeat female-centered evil. Despite the heroism of one woman, this is no girl power movie. In fact, "purist" fans are very angry that one additional female character will be fighting," in The Lord of the Rings.

Both a 3T and 1T cultural truth lies in this oservation about male/female "forces."

I could probably spend more time and refine my interpetation of the male/female cycles but... another day.

here goes:


Spring. Authoritive, Political Liberalism that flourishes amid a masculine, conformist, conservative culture creating a consenus.

Outer-driven civic Faith governs society. We think, therefore we are is the cultural creed.

The prevailing Myth: The New Masculinity, outwardly strong and rugged like John Wayne, is nevertheless void of innerness.


Autumn. Progressive, Political Conservatism that flourishes amid a feminized, nonconformist liberal culture creating ballyhoo.

Inner-driven individual Feelings governs society. I feel, therefore I am becomes the cultural creed.

The prevailing Myth: The New Feminist, while full of spiritual endowment, nevertheless is powerless to do anything of societial
significance.


IMHO, anyway.

I have read all of your books because they explained a pattern I had seen in secular stock market mooves(I am a money manager).Your comments on this site are appreciated.
My reaction is this is too early, but market like to trip as many people as possible!

I would venture to say that in a 2T and a 4T, it requires a blending of both the masculine and the feminine, but then, it's the 2T and the 4T that serve to balance the excesses of the 1T and the 3T.

Interesting take, Ms. Lis, coz I was thinking that the second and fourth turns, being tranistional periods, create a lot of fighting between male and female.

These replies are going way back -- which is what happens when you listen to President Bush and try to get back to work :wink: jumping on the boards only occasionally -- but here goes:

To Pat Mathews: The United Airlines ad comparing "Monday" to "Tuesday" was in the same spirit of an America suddenly shaken into perspective.

To Stonewall Patton: I relate to you on the disillusionment, but mine seems to have been much more in accord with a traditional life span (and generational passage).

Instead of E2K, mine was Iran-Contra. So disgusted was I with it all that I switched over completely from the politics of Alex Keaton (Michael J. Fox's character on "Family Ties") to those of his dad. Read this poem I wrote in 1988 for proof:

MORNING IN AMERICA

Morning in America
A bulldozer digs a scar in the earth
On the hill overlooking Madison
Where architects roll out the blueprints
For a development that will house
The Yuppie couples who've made a ton
At the famous casino called Wall Street
As a teen wakes down in the valley
His mom still asleep with beer on her skirt
And six empty Bud cans down on the floor
Unknowing he slips on some jeans
And throws on a Spuds McKenzie shirt
To impress his friends at Madison High

Afternoon in America
At Madison Steel Works a proud old man
Finds a pink slip and turns in his tools
Thinking sadly of his only daughter
The valedictorian of the senior class
Who now can't afford to go off to school
To realize her dream of becoming a lawyer
While a tall black kid from a dirty apartment
(Which isn't oft found in a town like this)
Dunks a basketball to delight the scouts
Who'll beg him to play for their college
Not knowing he's only releasing the stress
Caused by his dad's brutal beatings

Evening in America
An angry mom fights with the school board
Over sex education which corrupts the girls
Like her daughter who brings the captain
Of the football team to her empty house
In youthful excitement his organ unfurls
Without any condom to protect her
As a gang of four jaded dropouts
Pours gasoline all round the shell
Of a faceless Yuppie couple's future home
And tosses lit matches to start an inferno
Ensuring destruction of their dreams as well
The rising red and orange a familiar illusion
Morning in America

Even though I have long since returned to being a card-carrying Republican (hey, I'm an Xer/13er, I'm comfortable with ambiguity), believe me, I don't share the predilection of those who want to rename every building in America after Ronald Reagan ... the Unraveling DEFINITELY started under his watch (or sleep, depending on your point of view). And Oliver North, as you can guess, truly disgusts me.

So how do I justify, or even live with, myself, you may ask? Really, I suppose I'm more of a TORY, in the British sense of the word, than a Republican. And like the greatest of Tories, Winston Churchill, "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you don't have a heart; if you're not a conservative when you're 40, you don't have a head" ...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: doxieman on 2001-09-25 11:10 ]</font>

From what I've been told, there was virtually no fighting between male and female during the last 4T. They all pretty much worked together for the same goal. And there was very little squabbling between men and women in the 2T. Most of that gender-war sort of stuff has occurred in the 3T. And I dare say a lot of it went on in the 1T as well; it was just not talked about openly. Remember, it's the Silent women who had to suffer through the male ascendant 1T the most who led the women's liberation movement in the 2T. And now, I suspect it's going to be the men who've had to suffer through the female ascendant 3T who will swing the pendulum back in the 4T.

In that last line, I intended to say Xer men.

Ms. Lis writes, "And now, I suspect it's going to be the men who've had to suffer through the female ascendant 3T who will swing the pendulum back in the 4T."

What, no "battle of the sexes" as the pendulum swings back the other way? Are women just gonna roll over?

Come to think of it, I recall reading a Columbus Dispatch front page story from July of 1932. FDR had just swung through, stopped at a baseball stadium here, and made a speech. Almost tongue-in-cheek, a sub-line was included that observed, Mrs. Roosevelt sat during the entire speech smiling and... knitting something. This, just 10, or so years after sufferage!

Then I recall reading a quote from in an old Life magazine from the mid-forties forties that read, "This is what has become of liberation?" No doubt noted while observing "bobby soxers" coming off the "Rosie the riveter" assembly lines.

Perhaps men and women didn't really have anything to wrestle about back in the thirties, but sure makes me wonder about the Lord of the Rings, "Male forces of power defeat female-centered evil. Despite the heroism of one woman, this is no girl power movie."


J.R. Tolkein, btw, was a lost generation Roman Catholic.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2001-09-25 12:23 ]</font>

On 2001-09-25 11:09, doxieman wrote:

To Stonewall Patton: I relate to you on the disillusionment, but mine seems to have been much more in accord with a traditional life span (and generational passage).

Instead of E2K, mine was Iran-Contra. So disgusted was I with it all that I switched over completely from the politics of Alex Keaton (Michael J. Fox's character on "Family Ties") to those of his dad. Read this poem I wrote in 1988 for proof:

Doxieman, I find this fascinating. Iran-Contra did not trigger my disillusionment at the time. But had I known then what I have learned about its true purposes in the past two or three years (hint: it had next to nothing to do with hostages or freedom fighters), it should have. And as you say, Iran-Contra better fits in the standard timeline for nomads. Consider me retro-actively disillusioned from the late 1980s forward.

Iran-Contra did not trigger my disillusionment at the time. But had I known then what I have learned about its true purposes in the past two or three years (hint: it had next to nothing to do with hostages or freedom fighters), it should have.

Damn. I just HAVE to ask.


If it wasn't about funding the Contras, and getting around the Congressional restrictions, what was it about?


(It was after the hostages had already been released, which they were the day Reagan took office. So it couldn't have been the hostages. The only Iranian connection was that weapons were sold to Iran to provide the funds.)

On 2001-09-24 16:48, angeli wrote:
(Matthew said)
"I have a question about the terrorist attacks of last week.

What do we know for sure about the identity of the people responsible?

I mean, everybody's talking about bin Laden and the Taliban and so on, but what do we know for sure?"

I don't think we do. I think all anyone will committ to is that bin Laden is the #1 suspect.

This has bothered me for days. Thanks.

One paid political ad in the local college paper said a 1999 State Department report identified Iran as the #1 center of terrorism, terrorist training camps, etc. If this is true - is it? - where is our action taken at Iran?

Some brief comments on the question of who did it, and training camps:

Janes
http://www.janes.com/security/intern...0919_1_n.shtml

Also there are many training camps in Algeria, Sudan, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan. But one of the foremost is this one:

Darul Uloom Haqqania
http://www.strategicnetwork.org/inde...loc=kb&id=5608

I agree with the last post. After all Liv Tyler *will* be cleaving heads in LOTR despite the protests. Actually, Tolkein had one other warrior princess -- an elf in the "First Age" (LOTR describes the end of the "Third Age").

On 2001-09-25 12:49, Brian Rush wrote:

Iran-Contra did not trigger my disillusionment at the time. But had I known then what I have learned about its true purposes in the past two or three years (hint: it had next to nothing to do with hostages or freedom fighters), it should have.

...It was after the hostages had already been released, which they were the day Reagan took office. So it couldn't have been the hostages.

If memory serves, it refers to the hostages in Lebanon, not in Iran.

Responding to doxieman, Mr. Patton rethinks, "And as you say, Iran-Contra better fits in the standard timeline for nomads. Consider me retro-actively disillusioned from the late 1980s forward."

Boy, have you two guys ever stepped in it. Iran-Contra ignited your "disillusioned" journey?

Nah, can't be. It was Reagan's massive tax cuts in 1982 that did that, remember?

If you doubt... check uot this thread to understand better and then you can re-re-adjust your thinking on the whole disillusionment thing. K?


http://www.fourthturning.com/forums/...221&forum=10&2




And then we can all go shoppin'! K? :grin:

On 2001-09-24 18:36, robocooper wrote:

In 1979, I didn't pay much attention to the hostage crisis. ... some morons from my class harassing Iranian refugees. It wasn't from patriotism, though, they were just thugs.

What had impressed me, was that apolitical thugs became politically motivated. In my neighborhood of NYC, the teens who hung out in a playground, painted the roof of a playground equipment storage building, "Bomb Iran", for pilots to see.

Couples Shun Divorce in Terrorism's Aftermath

While thousands of homes have been shattered by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, others are being brought back together by the loss experienced by so many families. Hundreds of couples have decided not to go through with divorce and try to patch things up instead, according to "The Houston Chronicle."

In the last two weeks around 400 family-law suits have been dismissed in Harris County Family Law courts, more than three times the usual number, said the newspaper. The tragedy "puts it all in perspective," said lawyer Annette Henry. "Whatever was driving you crazy no longer seems so significant."

In New York, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA) has opened a prayer center to care for the bereaved and grieving. Pastors are manning phones at the Manhattan center. "We want to make sure that New Yorkers know that we love them and God loves them, and that we just want to be there to listen and pray for them in their time of need," said Franklin Graham, chief executive officer of the BGEA.

Campus Crusade for Christ has shipped thousands of English and Spanish copies of the "Jesus" video to New York for distribution to families of the missing, those attending memorial services and crowds that have gathered on the streets to cheer on rescue workers. Copies of the video may also be made available to families of passengers on the hijacked planes.

--> Charisma Magazine (ok, so its religious--grin) http://www.charismanews.com/fullnews...ws.html#brief1

You could put together quite a long list of indicators that say, "The times, they are a-changin'"... But I am suddenly wondering today if that's because we "sort of want" to see them change, either to validate the T4T view or because we just want to be right?

Let's take this from a different perspective: what are the indicators that this is NOT a 4T... is that possible to examine?

On 2001-09-25 12:18, Marc Lamb wrote:
"Male forces of power defeat female-centered evil. Despite the heroism of one woman, this is no girl power movie."

This is the last I'll say about the movie here, but I have NO idea where whoever said this got it. There was no female-centered evil in LOTR. Sauron is most definitely NOT female.