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Thread: Is the 911 Attack Triggering A Fourth Turning? - Page 41







Post#1001 at 10-12-2001 09:54 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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How very 3T of you, Robert! :lol:







Post#1002 at 10-12-2001 10:44 AM by oddlystrange [at oddlystrange joined Oct 2001 #posts 33]
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On 2001-09-15 10:45, Susan Brombacher wrote:
The most previously tuned out people, as we know, are Xers. Having no deeply-held convictions from previous turnings, expect them to become the most deeply and swiftly involved in the 4T mindset. While they erected much of 3T culture, they will also be the first to let go of these things.
A very insightful observation, at least from my standpoint. Speaking personally, I am *refreshed* to see this change. I know in light of what happened it almost seems to be a shallow statement, but many of us were yearning for something more than each group bickering over their peice of the pie.

Since at present they dominate the entertainment industry, expect also to see a major shift away from the gross-out/shock/celebrity-worship/freak show mentality, and toward upbeat and escapist harmless entertainment that comforts and provides an temporary escape during times of crisis.
Once again, I found that observation to be remarkably insightful. I'm already finding that I'm tired of violent films. I'm looking for some sort of fantasy world to get into for a while. However, I will say that my 13-er husband-to-be is still playing his violent video games, but for him it's also a sense of escape. He's just doing it down a different hatch than I am :smile:

The fact that Hollywood is postponing its release of new, violent action movies out of respect for the victims of the 911 disaster is telling in itself. It is possible that when these films are released, audiences will not be flocking to see them.
I little personal anecdote to bring that point home:

A friend of mine from high school was set for his motion picture debut in "Big Trouble," which while it was a comedy, dealt with terrorism (he was actually going to be the co-pilot on the plane that gets hijakced in the movie).

This movie was pulled, it may be released next year, it might not. And instead of getting up in arms about how his moment was taken away from him, instead he understands that now is not the time for such a movie.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: oddlystrange on 2001-10-12 08:47 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: oddlystrange on 2001-10-12 08:48 ]</font>







Post#1003 at 10-12-2001 12:39 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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I looked in the October 15th edition of Time magazine and didn't see an article on the Fourth Turning anywhere! Is the cover story being delayed or did they just lose interest and decide not to write anything about it?

I'm a little frustrated right now.

Can I be enlightened of what is going on with that cover story Bill and Neil?







Post#1004 at 10-12-2001 01:25 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
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On 2001-10-12 07:47, Josh Braxon referred us to:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/column...n/?id=95001309
no offense, josh, but that was the most insignificant pile of tripe i've read all week. i can appreciate her sentiment, because those workers, and the folks aboard flight 93, are indeed heroes. but that's all her position is, sentiment.

they did great things, but politicizing their deeds/behavior by asserting the value of one kind of "manliness" over another is petty and a disservice.


TK

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TrollKing on 2001-10-12 12:33 ]</font>







Post#1005 at 10-12-2001 01:37 PM by oddlystrange [at oddlystrange joined Oct 2001 #posts 33]
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On 2001-10-11 12:32, Mike Alexander '59 wrote:
How can you compare previous terrorist attacks to this one? Are you saying that your reaction to this event is the same as your reaction to the USS Cole attack, or to the 1983 Lebanon truck bomb?

It does seem to be very 3T when people are saying that this is another terrorist attack and that we must go after those responsible and bring them to justice, like Osama bin Laden was another John Wayne Gacy.

I think you misunderstood me, and at the same time helped to prove the point I was making.

I was saying that the initial terrorist incidents that occured (especially those in connection to Al Queda) [1] did not have the same effect on America as the WTC Attacks.

One could easily brush off the overseas attacks as ones that just didn't hit close enough to home to have a massive effect on us personally (even though one of the crew members that died aboard the Cole lived in my city).

But one cannot brush off that the initial WTC happened on our soil, and in the SAME location! Think back to that attack, it was unfathomable, even then that we'd see what we've seen in the last few weeks.

Putting yourself back in those times, why didn't that initial attack on the WTC have the effect that the recent attack did?

One issue could be scale, few people died, the buildings didn't topple, and generally, if you didn't live in NYC you really didn't care all that much.

I don't think there is a person on the east coast in any major city that could say that they didn't feel a very personal and threatening danger on 9/11.

I work across the street from the Federal Reserve Bank in Richmond, VA. I know that as everything unfolded on 9/11 I definately did not want to be where I was. I felt extremely vulnerable and endangered.

And I think that feeling went across the board, no matter who you are or where you were. And that was the difference.

We didn't brush this off as a problem overseas, or a military problem [2], or an NYC problem. It was a collective problem.

I admit that I'm deeply annoyed that no one mentioned the hundreds that died at the hands of Al Queda prior to the Sept. 11th attacks. But, when they happened, they weren't *personal* enough to break us out of our selfish interests.

This was personal, and you could look on every other person's face and know that they were feeling the same exact feelings you were.

Now I don't remember the change from 2T to 3T at all. I was about 10 years old when it happened.

September 11th was the first time ever in my life that I could look into the faces of people with completely different interests, completed different lifestyles, histories and upbringing and know for certain that now we were a collective.

That was the difference between these prior Al Queda attacks and this one. And that is why those attacks didn't have the same rallying effect on the nation as the Sept. 11th ones did.


[1] The Saudi barrack bombing, the two African Embassy Bombings, the initial WTC bombing and the USS Cole bombing in particular.

[2] Which I honestly beleive, had the Pentagon been the only target, would have been the dustbin we would have relegated this incident to.







Post#1006 at 10-12-2001 03:50 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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It seems an NBC nightly news employee in NYC has anthrax, likely coming from a mailed envelope full of power. While this has not been linked with the Florida case, nor either with September 11, one would have to assume the phase two attacks are in progress.

This one is not as initially spectacular as the last, but is not a suicide attack method. It is a potentially ongoing long term technique. I find the known target choices interesting, american media? It would seem that with a mild level of paranoia by the mail receiving public, the attacks won't be lethal or contageous, but if the attack is sustained, it will have its successes.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bob Butler 54 on 2001-10-12 13:50 ]</font>







Post#1007 at 10-12-2001 03:59 PM by Lis '54 [at Texas joined Jul 2001 #posts 127]
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The anthrax scares are getting a lot of news, but apparently there's no proof that either case is connected to the war. What's getting less press but is concerning locals are the 700 lbs of explosives missing in Houston that they still haven't found.

Never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. John Donne







Post#1008 at 10-12-2001 04:10 PM by Craig '84 [at East Brunswick, NJ joined Aug 2001 #posts 128]
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On 2001-09-19 15:19, Brian Rush wrote:

OTOH, I think it's pretty obvious that abortion, gay rights, gun control, and capital punishment don't belong in the same room with either the war on terrorism or the coming struggle over resources and sustainability. Those are among the real culture wars issues. And I am quite prepared to declare a cease-fire on all of them. As a matter of fact, I think the entire blue zone would be. And indeed, has been prepared for such a cease-fire for quite a number of years.
The entire blue zone? Sorry but these things DO matter...they're a question of right or wrong no matter what turning your in...just because it's the 4T or the 1T or whatever T I'm not going to give them up to the other side. Sure, there are terrorists out there, but issues like these need to be dealt with. If you were Mumia Abu-Jamal would you stop worrying about the capital punishment question? And forgive and forget about gay rights because "we're all in this together"? I won't rest until the last sodomy law goes down in flames. -Craig







Post#1009 at 10-12-2001 04:20 PM by Craig '84 [at East Brunswick, NJ joined Aug 2001 #posts 128]
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On 2001-09-20 11:09, Matt Wilson wrote:
Cecil, whatever one's views, libertarianisms left and right can only flourish in the 3T and 2T. Someone extolling the rights of the individual at the expense of the community or nation is likely to be ignored, mocked, or attacked in the 4T and 1T. Libertarianism offers relevent answers during an Awakening and an Unraveling. Libertarianism offers irrelevent answers during a Crisis and a High.
Hey! I came out left-libertarian on the top of my political test and a libertarian I stay. All the test answer rankings said I was definitely a libertarian. There's nothing irrelevant about libertarian values, rights are right and that doesn't change depending what turning it happens to be. Having ideals of human liberty is nothing to laugh at or mock. What rights does a nation have? Where does it say a nation is an individual that can have its rights violated? Is everyone damned to live their whole time on this planet being part of and submitting to a larger community? Right and wrong don't change with what people think along the turnings. -Craig







Post#1010 at 10-12-2001 05:11 PM by Craig '84 [at East Brunswick, NJ joined Aug 2001 #posts 128]
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Wow.

Brian, I read the beginning of T4T again. After taking Brian's test I have a feeling we may still be in the 3T after all. Almost every part still applies...some of it very aptly right now. "We yearn for civic character but satisfy ourselves with symbolic gestures" this in particular applies to the Boomer flag-waving right now...Boomers being the big symbolic generation. Boomers showed their 3T side as they talked about civic this and civic that and called for war, while focusing strongly on symbols all along and even to this day. As for Boomers treating other people NICER...ummmmm? Of course some of the lines don't fit like the part about "relative peace and comfort", and some Boomers changed and became more trusting of the government and their country after the attack instead of having the number of people who trust institutions continue to go down. The other thing is I'd be happy if the economy swung up, but I'd take that as a sign of 3T and being unlike the Great Depression, so maybe that's just me. But "relative peace"? Hey this IS war, Bush said it. When 1812 was staged in America Americans weren't at peace. During Vietnam we weren't in emotional comfort, damn, not even Unravelling events like Columbine or Cold War drills put us in emotional comfort. But there's so much in here that applies...this overwhelmingly works for describing the mood so that a person who read this wouldn't think they were reading something out-of-date, they wouldn't think "Oh, it must have been written before 9-11" as long as you took the peace, etc. part out. "We have settled into a mood of pessimism about the long-term future, fearful that our superpower nation is somehow rotting from within." "The Cold War and New Deal struggles are plainly over, but we are of no mind to bask in their successes." "Wherever we look, from L.A. to D.C., from Oklahoma City to Sun City, we see paths to a foreboding future." "Around World War II, we were proud as a people but modest as individuals. Fewer than two people in ten said yes when asked 'Are you a very important person?' Today, more than six in ten say yes. Where we once thought ourselves collectively strong, we now regard ourselves as individually entitled." "Public debts soar, the middle class shrinks, welfare dependencies deepen, and cultural wars worsen by the year. We now have the highest incarceration rate, and the lowest eligible-voter participation rate, of any major democracy [sic]." "Statistics inform us that many adverse trends (crime, divorce, abortion, scholastic aptitudes) may have bottomed out, but we're not reassured." "Most Americans express more hope for their own prospects than for their children's?or the nation's." "Parents widely fear that the American Dream, which was there (solidly) for their parents and still there (barely) for them, will not be there for their kids. Young householders are reaching their mid-thirties never having known a time when America seemed to be on the right track. Middle-aged people look at their thin savings accounts and slim-to-none pensions, scoff at an illusory Social Security trust fund, and try not to dwell on what a burden their old age could become. Seniors separate into their own Leisure World, recoiling at the lost virtue of youth while trying not to think about the future." "Wherever we're headed, America is evolving in ways most of us don?t like or understand. Individually focused yet collectively adrift, we wonder if we're heading toward a waterfall." After trying that test to find the definitive answer, I suddenly felt my fears alleviated and my body lightening up. I began breathing easy like I haven't been breathing in weeks.

Wow! )

-Craig







Post#1011 at 10-12-2001 05:38 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to believe that the same terrorists that swore that 100 americans would die for each one of their followers, are behind the Anthrax incidents. They declared war on us, and it is also no surprise that the media is being attacked. Primarily because the media can spread fear better thah any individual attack can, and second, because the two enemies these terrorist have is the U.S. Government and U.S. Media. I covered that before.

Already the point of terrorism, which is to attack in a decentralized way, putting fear to everybody, is working. Who is going to open their mail now? There will be 100 hoxes for every real death envelope, but since our open society can't handle but a fraction of this type of terror, they win on another front.

The conflict will end when we understand what they want, and make our country move toward that end. I only hope it doesn't take 10 or 20 years for this one to get resolved.







Post#1012 at 10-12-2001 07:06 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
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sv81 suggested:

The conflict will end when we understand what they want, and make our country move toward that end.
yeah, let's give them what they want. that'll solve everything.


TK







Post#1013 at 10-12-2001 07:52 PM by pindiespace [at Pete '56 (indiespace.com) joined Jul 2001 #posts 165]
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Re: Susan Brombacher's comment on how entertainment might change. We've been experiencing this hands-on in Los Angeles.

Before 9/11 we were developing a series entitled "The Future of Entertainment",( http://indiespace.com/foe ) in which we used S & H (along with Neal Gabler's Life: The Movie and Sinclair's Next: book) to predict how entertainment would change in the next decade. The seminars really picked up steam from the events in September. After three seminars we have seen the following:

1. The 9/11 event has increased the trend away from cynical/alienated entertainment -- but people don't know yet what to replace it with. I've met some documentary filmmakers who have really been affected by this -- no more glitter on the facts for them!

2. However, a significant fraction of the industry, particularly Xers, are trying to restart the old crap. They're really working at convincing themselves that nothing changed. At the production houses & studios in West LA you can still hear people discussing reality show pitches. Their reason? They insist that nobody every got fired underestimating the public's ability to think.

3. Many people in the entertainment industry are so used to unreal that they think the past was *real*, and 9/11 is "unreal". This is a very common statement by publicists, agents, etc. -- they keep saying how "unreal" 9/11 was. This is predictable from Gabler's book -- a major component of an Unraveling is the theater-ization of reality. Everyone is encourged to emulate the celebrity/pro athlete model, and celebrity is potentially extended to everyone. So we have celebrity movie stars along with celebrity hairdessers to the stars. They all live in a scripted reality -- what Gabler calls a "lifee". No wonder reality seems unreal to them! Check the TV Guide that came out after 9/11 for examples of this attitude.

4. The government is actually asking screenwriters for ideas how terrorists might attack. They don't know anything, but (like the terrorists?) they see the world as a great movie in the "moment of darkness" part of the story (the third act of four).

5. Despite these issues, people in the industry are very excited by the idea of a spiral pattern to history and/or regular patterns to culture a la Elliot wave models. Most have absorbed reams of pseudo-numerical marketing models which invariably predict linear extensions of current trends. When I ask the seminar audience whether they feel that film and partcularly music feel "played out" they all agree. They usually blame the younger generation for this(!) They're amazed to see that there is a major body of non-linear theory concerning history and culture.

6. Almost nobody knows about the changes in the newest generation. I do a "thumbs up/thumbs down" test for trends like school shooting -- 29 out of 30 get it wrong. Then I ask if they know anyone under 20 personally -- very few do. Then I ask them why their beliefs about "genY" were so wrong -- they blame the media. I point out that the media was around when they were 20 and they're stumped! The only exception was someone who had seen Nintendo's study on genY -- its conclusions match the S & H Millennial model.

7. Predicting the future of music was really fun. People from record labels appear to think they need to get "even edgier" to sell music (they also assume they'll be running the Internet by the end of 2002). I had people in the audience muttering loudly in disbelief while predicting musical change (e.g., switch to slower rhythms in techno).

8. Film people seem more "with it." Unlike music, they have a library of film showing generational archetypes stretching back to the 1920s. It is easy to point out 1930s "focal point films" and relate generational attitudes to recent box-office successes.

9. Students planning on entertainment careers are really worried. Most haven't changed their interests yet, but 9/11 is right under their skin. I teach at the art institute LA, and saw classic "nasty Xers" (19-22) freak out over 9/11. Unlike their older peers, they aren't expecting business as usual. Interestingly, many blame the government for not keeping things safe, but nobody's blaming their folks.

10. Last but not least, very few people in the entertainment industry are aware of their direct role in the current crisis. Some heard about a billboard with Madonna being torched in Indonesia -- "why would anyone ever do that?" was the comment. Some are "anti-globalization" without recognizing that Western media's relentless advance has helped to fuel much of the resentment of the US. I suspect there will be a major dose of reality in this area in the near future.







Post#1014 at 10-12-2001 09:08 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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The entire blue zone? Sorry but these things DO matter...they're a question of right or wrong no matter what turning your in...just because it's the 4T or the 1T or whatever T I'm not going to give them up to the other side. Sure, there are terrorists out there, but issues like these need to be dealt with. If you were Mumia Abu-Jamal would you stop worrying about the capital punishment question? And forgive and forget about gay rights because "we're all in this together"? I won't rest until the last sodomy law goes down in flames. -Craig
Sorry to disappoint you Craig '84, but this last post absolutely convinced me you are not a 1984-cohort Xer, as you seem to wish you were.

But you're not a Millennial either.

You're a Boomer.
:grin: :grin:

_________________
Insanity is the only sane way to cope with an insane world.--RD LANGE

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-10-12 19:13 ]</font>







Post#1015 at 10-12-2001 09:57 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2001-10-12 19:08, Susan Brombacher wrote:

The entire blue zone? Sorry but these things DO matter...they're a question of right or wrong no matter what turning your in...just because it's the 4T or the 1T or whatever T I'm not going to give them up to the other side. Sure, there are terrorists out there, but issues like these need to be dealt with. If you were Mumia Abu-Jamal would you stop worrying about the capital punishment question? And forgive and forget about gay rights because "we're all in this together"? I won't rest until the last sodomy law goes down in flames. -Craig
Sorry to disappoint you Craig '84, but this last post absolutely convinced me you are not a 1984-cohort Xer, as you seem to wish you were.

But you're not a Millennial either.
Seriously, don't make the mistake of assumning that Xers are indifferent to principles. We just approach them differently than Boomers do.







Post#1016 at 10-12-2001 10:01 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2001-10-12 14:10, Craig '84 wrote:
On 2001-09-19 15:19, Brian Rush wrote:

OTOH, I think it's pretty obvious that abortion, gay rights, gun control, and capital punishment don't belong in the same room with either the war on terrorism or the coming struggle over resources and sustainability. Those are among the real culture wars issues. And I am quite prepared to declare a cease-fire on all of them. As a matter of fact, I think the entire blue zone would be. And indeed, has been prepared for such a cease-fire for quite a number of years.
The entire blue zone? Sorry but these things DO matter...they're a question of right or wrong no matter what turning your in...just because it's the 4T or the 1T or whatever T I'm not going to give them up to the other side. Sure, there are terrorists out there, but issues like these need to be dealt with. If you were Mumia Abu-Jamal would you stop worrying about the capital punishment question? And forgive and forget about gay rights because "we're all in this together"? I won't rest until the last sodomy law goes down in flames. -Craig
From the Red Zone, I too must note that nobody has yielded or is prepared to yield. If by truce do you mean there is broad agreement that the bin Laden/Al Quaida threat must be dealt with, yes.

If by truce you mean dropping the issues (and thus handing the Blue Zone a broad victory in the Culture War), no, Red is not so inclined.

The Culture War (or more precisely the Cultural Divide) is on the back burner, but it is not gone. I have said before that I think our current unity is more fragile than it appears, and I fear it could be pushed too far, even if this is an early-stage 4T.







Post#1017 at 10-12-2001 10:14 PM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
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On 2001-10-12 19:08, Susan Brombacher wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you Craig '84, but this last post absolutely convinced me you are not a 1984-cohort Xer, as you seem to wish you were.

But you're not a Millennial either.

You're a Boomer.
:grin: :grin:
Susan,

I don't know whether to take what you've posted as skeptical/cynical (meaning Millies uncannily remind you of Boomers), or sincere (meaning what you've posted is literal). Either way, you're right, of course.

But, I must tell you something, I think Craig really is a Millie. That in their youth at least, they are eerily like Boomers as to their passion and conviction.

Late this afternoon, just a few hours ago, I checked in to this site while at my #1 son's house for my oldest grandson's birthday party, who turned 17 today. His usual bunch of co-ed friends were here and they naturally were all over the computer once my grandson quipped that Nana was into her conspiracy theory again....

Well, then it went something like, only old folks hang there; no, there's a dude our age on there, show 'em Nana. So I pulled up Craig's posts and they sat around the screen reading several of his posts.

Their reactions were almost all in agreement with his opinions, or his attitude, I couldn't tell which. A few of them were vehemently in disagreement, and when asked what they thought, it was like a mirror of opposites, just as passionate. I truly thought I was sitting among some 60's revolutionaries and one young Pat Bushanan! They seem very idealistic, and also obviously somewhat unfamiliar, naiive with the game of (Real) Life and/or not willing to play it the way they see it's being done now.

As they were leaving to go to the football game, I really got a shock. I'd seen them comment to adults that they'd fight if called in the war. (Just like their older gens EXPECT them to behave). Well, as they were leaving, they were talking about that and the very kids I'd heard being so patriotic were saying things like, Man, I'm staying out of it as long as possible....I'll figure out some way to get out of it....I ain't messing up MY plans for college...This is a fake war anyway, I'm not getting my *ss blown off...

These kids are honor students, all college-bound, all Students Against Drunk Driving, all Christian Student Union-ers, who represent every socio-eco group, all big 3 ethnicities (white/hispanic/black) and 1 asian.

I don't think they really know how to solve our current problems, of course, but they do not like what they see being done now, and that may be all they are really sure of. There were alot of young Boomers walking around thinking the same thing back in the 60's. But the scary thing to me is that they seem to know what is expected of them to say, in public. It is scary to me because that hadn't occurred to me til now, and who could blame them if you think of it. We've been as a society, duplicitous and hypocritical to say the least. During the Unravelling, we say one thing yet do another, and they grew up learning this.

So, I take Craig at his word. He told me awhile back he relates to my some of my grandson's point of view. I think some of them are p.o.'d now, because they have been doing what they thought we expected, more or less, and now things are changing midstream. My grandchildren don't as a rule respond well to abrupt mid-stream change or spontaneity unless it's their decision.

I think your theory about it being materially what we EXPECT their behaviors to be is righton. The other part is that they've figured that out, too, and are navigating almost professionally.







Post#1018 at 10-12-2001 10:19 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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[quote]
On 2001-10-12 20:01, HopefulCynic68 wrote:
The Culture War (or more precisely the Cultural Divide) is on the back burner, but it is not gone. I have said before that I think our current unity is more fragile than it appears, and I fear it could be pushed too far, even if this is an early-stage 4T.
Don't forget the huge contribution to unity caused by terrorisn. What is happening to us is decentralized war, from people that won't much longer even have a country to fight out of. They will turn our country into the battlefield, and the cultural divide will be strictly back burner. Remember the crisis is for SURVIVAL. It hasn't touched every citizen yet, but it will - both coasts, mountain states, etc.







Post#1019 at 10-12-2001 10:22 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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I forgot my cite for you readers out there:

One Nation, Two Cultures, by Gertrude Himmelfarb.
Good mesh with the line of discusson on blue zone, red zone people, and how the political parties have radically switchhed positions in the past decades since WWII.







Post#1020 at 10-12-2001 10:55 PM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
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On 2001-10-12 20:01, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

From the Red Zone, I too must note that nobody has yielded or is prepared to yield. If by truce do you mean there is broad agreement that the bin Laden/Al Quaida threat must be dealt with, yes.

If by truce you mean dropping the issues (and thus handing the Blue Zone a broad victory in the Culture War), no, Red is not so inclined.

The Culture War (or more precisely the Cultural Divide) is on the back burner, but it is not gone. I have said before that I think our current unity is more fragile than it appears, and I fear it could be pushed too far, even if this is an early-stage 4T.
I don't know if this fits in the Red Zone or not, but the Blue Zone hasn't a prayer politically in the immediate future, anyway. The Republican (well, the Bush) agenda has a clear runway. Anyone objecting too honestly will get the "Berkeley/Barbara Lee" treatment.

That's why I qualified it, is that agenda what the Red Zone wants? I don't really know, since I am a political theory hybrid of different conservative thoughts. I agree with some and disagree with some.

In Bush's speech last night, he brought up his missle defense shield again. He's not given up on it at all, just bided his time til the appropriate opportunity and now it's cloaked in terrorist-fighting importance. I predict everything he wants will be, one by one, cloaked this way. And he'll be given it, I also predict.

Is that cool with you, Hopeful? As for myself, I probably will not let my sense of patriotism (ie, whatever's expected of us in this war) get in the way of seeing it as using the circumstances to gain politial advantage, especially if it gets really obvious, and even if I agree with the agenda items being pushed.

And, I want to add here, that I feel Bush sincerely and vigorously believes his ways are the best ways; and that every other administration faced with similar circumstances surely has operated in similar fashion, ie, seizing the opportunities. I remember on the Lib v. Conservative thread pre-911, Marc Lamb pointing out FDR's same behavior in his day.

But one doesn't have to be a Blue Zoner to feel kind of queasy about the enormous free pass this president has been given and really demands, if you think about it. Add to that that if we wake up one day and realize that this isn't 4T yet, where are we then? I dare say I've tried to look at it that way (as I ponder if it be 3T or 4T), and it seems to me that Bush appears to be in his element and perhaps makes an excellent patriarchal or benevolent totalitarian ruler much better, in this situation with no opposition, than the situation he faced daily prior to 911. I would think that if people in either/any Zone really thought about that, it would be at least a bit unsettling, even if it cannot be changed at present or near future. After all, this current situation has us all being asked to behave as if we were suspended in space, dependent on a thin hanging string called government protection, with the implication it would be unwise to bite the hand that holds the string. Or something like that, more or less, depending on your levels of trust, skepticism, and knowledge.

So when you say you fear Unity being pushed too far, do you mean this? Or what? If the administration keeps getting its agenda codified, I guess we'll see if the Blue Zone takes it lying down or if they rise up with more vengeance than ever before. Is that what you fear?







Post#1021 at 10-12-2001 11:46 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-12-2001, 11:46 PM #1021
Guest

My favorite "mom" writes, "And, I want to add here, that I feel Bush sincerely and vigorously believes his ways are the best ways; and that every other administration faced with similar circumstances surely has operated in similar fashion, ie, seizing the opportunities. I remember on the Lib v. Conservative thread pre-911, Marc Lamb pointing out FDR's same behavior in his day."

As I read this, I couldn't help thinking that you, Barb, remember FDR. Through a child's eyes for sure, but you remember... him.

In the light of this memory, albeit clouded with age, among other things, do you wish... can you even wish, to hope to see... another "him" in "action, and action now!"?

I cannot fathom what "action, and action now!" really means. Sure 911, and its aftermath is kinda scarey. But, come on... did Oswald really "change the world" with a pea-shooter from 400 feet? Did he, a Silent generation "misfit," really shatter the G.I. myth on November 22, 1963?

A lot of my teachers wept that afternoon. You probably did too, Barb. And a lot of teachers wept on the afternoon of September 11, 2001 too.

But one man, an idiot fanatic, with a few thugs willing to die for Allah does not, a Nazi "juggernaught" make; nor an "Empire of Japan" create.

The world is arrayed against this idiot, against this madness, against this anarchy of stupidity. A much greater "clown" awaits upon his wings; the wings of a fallen angel; the angel whom only God, Himself can defeat. God, and a certain "gray champion," born from the ashes of 911, but not of them.

You shalt see the next "gray champion" in "action, and action now!", Barb. I was born too late to see the last one, and you were born too soon to see the next one.

Love, Marc :smile:




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2001-10-12 21:54 ]</font>







Post#1022 at 10-13-2001 01:51 AM by Tom Mazanec [at NE Ohio 1958 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,511]
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10-13-2001, 01:51 AM #1022
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For William a couple pages back...that post was a hoax (as you can tell by looking at the following pages). I sympathize...someone impersonated me last several months ago - that's basically why you have this new forum and have to register to get on!







Post#1023 at 10-13-2001 02:48 AM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
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10-13-2001, 02:48 AM #1023
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Wow, Tom, you had your identity stolen? Yuck, yes, I wondered about "William". I knew it wasn't our author, because of the previous scam.


O, M - A - R - C dear!

Don't write me off that quickly now. I'm aiming confidently for 100 years of age, and so even by your turning timetable, I'll still be alive and kicking for the GC, young man!

What do I be? I be one foot in 3T, one foot in 4T, NO foot in grave-T, see?

:grin:

(This war stuff makes me crazy)....







Post#1024 at 10-13-2001 08:29 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-13-2001, 08:29 AM #1024
Guest

I guess my real point was; would
you even want to live to see the next gray champ, Barb?

Think about it... You're a Silent. Do you really wish to live to see a bunch of Boomers stuff all those things back into the bottle that your generation let out of the bottle back during the Awakening?







Post#1025 at 10-13-2001 09:18 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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10-13-2001, 09:18 AM #1025
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To judge from President W's press conference, he has been studying my two favorite subjects, war and generational theory. To quote:

"I understand that this is an unconventional war. . . It's not the kind of war we're used to in
America. The greatest generation was used to storming beachheads. Baby Boomers such as
myself was used to getting caught in a quagmire of Vietnam where politics made decisions more
than the military sometimes. Generation X was able to watch technology right in front of their TV
screens, you know, burrow into concrete bunkers in Iraq and blow them up."

On behalf of my fellow Boomer W let me apologize to Barbara (as well as Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld) for treating her generation as not only Silent, but Blind and Deaf as well!

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