On 2001-10-20 21:28, Craig '84 wrote:

On 2001-09-28 16:50, Brian Rush wrote:

Your peers questioning the war is not just Prophet-like. It is also Hero-like. It is your job to question whether a proposed action is compatible with the civic renewal that must take place. It is also your job to raise the questions this attack poses about America's role in the world and how best to meet the world's needs. Fighting the war on terrorism, defending the country -- sure, that's your generation's job but it's only part of the job. Much more important is pushing us towards a lasting peace, towards the civic changes that must be made, towards a global order that is sustainable and fair to all. And if that requires putting your collective feet down and stopping the war effort until the changes are on track, then that's your job, too.

I would never think of questioning the war and even the draft as being Hero-like....damn, I'm trying but I still can't imagine it being Hero-like. I mean, S&H themselves said everyone stuck between 1982 and 2002 will go for "duty" and do their duty as soldiers, championing the draft. No matter what. It seems the student population filling the college and high schools are going to resist the draft...no matter what. Damn, how can these people how wrote the authoritative books on generations give the authoritative definition of the Hero archetype...and have the true, golden, definition on a pedestal be all wrong? They've got to be either right or wrong on this. I think there's some definitely real S&H Hero activity going on down there...and then there's something BEFORE the Heroes, not as apathetic as the Xers but still a generation that's clear and there. Delsyn did mention that the ones younger than us who are too young to think for themselves are looking up to the Boomers to decide what the right thing and the wrong thing to believe are...that they're developing a trusting relationship with authority and government that will last their whole lives. I pretty much think that's what she said. The elementary school students of today must be doing this...if these aren't the Heroes, the Poke'mon-playing and soccer-ball-kicking energized children of the post-nineties decade...man, I don't know WHAT they'd be. There are real people, real HEROES, who are reacting just as S&H said Heroes would act. Today's high school juniors, however, are clearly a different group, because the way the youngest generation of all acts (assuming Delsyn is right) is nothing like the way most high school or college students respond. We are visibly different...and we must be something else. A misplaced Prophet generation? Possibly. Who knows what we are? The great unanswered mysteries of the universe....-Craig

Both S&H and Brian are totall correct. Your worldview is just too fragmented to see it.

On 2001-10-20 21:44, Craig '84 wrote:
Of course Xers really do have principles and care about things (both Generation Y and the real Xers), but Xers being patriotic? The Xers aren't a patriotic generation, they act and sound the least patriotic out of all the generations today (GI's and Boomers being the most patriotic, and that includes Jonesers, the Silent generation being less patriotic, I don't know how the Lost generation feels, Generation X and Y are the least patriotic). I know the feelings about our country haven't changed in Generation Y and there's a big contempt of the flag thing from kids everywhere you go...
Now with Generation X, it isn't as clearly seen (at least from the point of someone my age), but if you get into the mind of any Xer, and speak with them, bring it up, they sure ain't patriotic. Not only do you not see very many Xers at all flag-waving, but there's no racism, no us-and-them mentality, and they voice the same views on the president and his government they always did. Bush is a loser with the thirteenth generation. The potential of winning the war doesn't change the classic Gen-X cynicism...nor can it change the fundamental anti-civic nature of Nomad generations.

Wow, Barbara, these kids can really relate to me. I don't know how to say I feel! I just feel so good for once being used as a positive example. I was an example that people in my generation can relate to! I feel like a celebrity now. Your grandson sounds awesome, I hope you get to speak to him more and I hope my....um, my inspirational words or something are helping him. The story about their reaction to being drafted scared me. It felt like my hair was standing on end after I read the whole thing. WHOA I'd never experienced anything like that before. Could we end up being known as the Two-faced Generation? Somehow that whole thing sounds even more contradictory and cynical than Gen X. Something very reactive about that that reminded me of the Lost Generation and the beatniks. Even the Xers who someone once said "listen from everything on their radio from Led Zeppelin to Rush Limbaugh in a single day".

Wow.

-Craig

If you talk to Xers, you will find that the REALLY care about defending their society. Besides, it's their home.

On 2001-10-20 21:44, Craig '84 wrote:
Of course Xers really do have principles and care about things (both Generation Y and the real Xers), but Xers being patriotic? The Xers aren't a patriotic generation, they act and sound the least patriotic out of all the generations today (GI's and Boomers being the most patriotic, and that includes Jonesers, the Silent generation being less patriotic,

I am going to be blunt. As far as Xers are concenred, you are dead wrong. I would say, if anything, Xers are the MOST patriotic. Perhaps it's because they are the ones with new families to protect and are therefore more concerneed with terrorist acts than others may be, but in my neck of the woods, at least, the most patriotic, flag-waving, God-Bless-America folks are the Xers. You are correct, however, in your observation of Silents being the least patriotic.

Bush is a loser with the thirteenth generation.

Nope, I don't think so. I haven't heard anyone complaining about Bush of late, least of all Xers, who seem to admire him. It's a great compliment for ANY Boomer--especially a Boomer in politics--to be admired even a little bit by an Xer.

The potential of winning the war doesn't change the classic Gen-X cynicism...nor can it change the fundamental anti-civic nature of Nomad generations.

Wrong again. a Crisis not only transforms them, it *becomes* them. Why do you think Nomad gens are anti-civic and cynical in the first place? Becuase they grew up in an America where NOTHING WORKED ANYMORE and adults acted like kids on a playground. Xers' splintery and disaffected culture was simply a diversion, something to keep them entertained until something better came along, that is, something they could finally care about. Until 9/11, they only seemed not to care partly to protect themselves, partly because the Big Issues so important to Silents and Boomers were irrelevant to them. 9/11 was their wake-up call, and, while you may think they are letting go of their 3T culture kicking and screaming, they are not. They are, in fact, the generation MOST willing to let go of the past that they themselves created. They are actually RELIEVED that they can finally take part in something that really means something to them and that they can identify with.

Craig, it seems to me you are basing your statements on your own emotions and wishful thinking of what you would like rather than on actually observing how the various generations are reacting to 9/11.

_________________
Insanity is the only sane way to cope with an insane world.--RD LANGE

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-10-20 23:06 ]</font>

What happens to this potential Hero generation minus the Crisis? Well, we must ask then what exactly would a non-Crisis 2000s through early 2020s period be like? Statistically, everything would remain more or less flat. Crime would spurt, then drop, only to average out overall as not being excpetional in either extreme of ultraviolence and Pleasantville. Drug use would remain hard to track down accurately. Voter rates would hinge on the bigness of issues (mud-slinging => low; nuclear power station next to elementary school => high). TV would try out various things to interest viewers, who settle into nice little ruts of watching only a few core channels anyway. Any new and popular, though most likely terrible, band would be bought out and mass media-ized to sell millions of CDs and even more MP3s. The news would focus on the most mind-numbing of details about politics and sex.

Okay, enough. I'm becoming ill.

So, what kind of generation would this result? Splintered, thought not as much as the Xers, since I expect that, technologically, advertisers would know how to affectively brainwash consumers. A mass, bland, youth consumer market. You think the Backstreet Boys failed to impress? Wait until this generation starts buying cleanser and houses and four-door sedans en masse. Simple, functional, colorful, but lacking in "soul" that previous cleansers, houses, and four-door sedans had.

Politically, they would lean to the left until their incomes began to rise and they moved up tax brackets, then they would swing conservative. The candidate that .007% of them would vote for is honest, decent, and has a spine. The rest go for one who is most likely genetically engineered to be an embodiment of the above-mentioned cleansers, houses, and sedans.

Fashion: rip-offs from previous eras. I can honestly say that any and all fashion styles have been invented, since in the past 20 years almost nothing new has come out, and all the "rules" have been broken, and so forth. With exceptions of some hair styles and a general tackiness, people haven't changed their appearance too much since 1980 or so. Come on. Look at still photographs of people taken in 1945, 1955, 1965, 1975, 1985, and in 1995. Women's fashion changes the most, but most of that is of little consequence in the long-term; every season begats its own "style". Now for men's fashion...zzzz. Everyday clothes today remain, and would remain, in long-term staples of t-shirts, jeans, sweaters and other climate-appropriate clothes. Anything more complex that (involving all button-up shirts, polo shirts, khaki pants, etc) are subject to being rip-offed from previous eras.

Food: more of less the same.

Morals: a distinct move into "Mind Your Own Business" territory. If anything about Monice taught people is that investigations into sex lives is not good, embarassing, and solves no problems. Talk of homosexual rights (do they have the right to vote, own property, serve on juries? Yes, yes, yes) diminishes, since what rights are being denied to them? A gay person has the right to perform XYZ activity, and I and and everyone else has the right to ignore, hate, honor that gay person. I'm not obligated to ignore, hate, or honor gay people, and I will treat gay people like I treat most, but not all, people on this earth: objects that exist purely for my understanding of humanity.

Overall philosophy: (I'm entering dream land here) A mixture of Objectivism with libertarian fascism and a few shizoid personality characteristics thrown in. Basically, a population full of nothing but INTPs and ISTJs

"I'm in heaven..."

On 2001-10-20 21:44, Craig '84 wrote:
Of course Xers really do have principles and care about things (both Generation Y and the real Xers), but Xers being patriotic? The Xers aren't a patriotic generation, they act and sound the least patriotic out of all the generations today (GI's and Boomers being the most patriotic, and that includes Jonesers, the Silent generation being less patriotic, I don't know how the Lost generation feels, Generation X and Y are the least patriotic).

Actually, if X'ers haven't seemed patriotic in the past it's been because our relationship with America has been one of a tourist in an amusement park in the process of breaking down. 3T America seemed to us a Silent-ized, therapy-ized, fragmented land of ever-increasing tribal chaos. It wasn't that we didn't believe in America, America didn't seem to believe in us. Our America squabbled over empty symbols that meant nothing, so we danced through the rubble - believing only in ourselves.

As for looking and sounding the lease patriotic of all generations, you're right - but only because you're judging us by the criteria of Boomers and Silents who have always been big on symbols and short on effective action. We've become patriotic - but we're pretty quiet about it because we understand (some of us only instinctively)that this is a struggle that's not going to be won by wearing an "America United" T-shirt. True, you do see some X'ers wearing them, but that's because this is the first time that most of us have had something to believe in that's larger than themselves and their own families, and some of us are adopting a few needed tags - like flags and T-shirts to show our new allegiance. 911 is a raw direct threat to our survival - nobody understands that better or takes such a challenge more seriously than a Nomad. Survival is what we DO. As we move forward and Nomads begin to exercise their atrophied poiltical muscles, I think you'll see less T-shirts and more agitation against what we see as ineffective action - patriotism will be redefined less by what you SAY (which tends to be the Boomer/Prophet definition) and more by what you DO.

I know the feelings about our country haven't changed in Generation Y and there's a big contempt of the flag thing from kids everywhere you go...

That too is par for the course for Hero generations. As I've mentioned before, Strauss & Howe, while they do a brilliant job in explaining the basic underpinnings of their generational theory (Obviously, that's why we're all here)have a tendency to describe particular generations and historical motivators from their own Prophet-like perspective. Their descriptors for Nomads and the Nomad lifecycle, although sympathetic, were nonetheless rather harsher than reality. Their descriptors of the Hero lifecycle was a bit more candy-coated than reality - reflective of the "Hope of the World" pressure that all Heroes have to live with.

Reading S&H (and even comments here) there is this feeling that Hero Generations cheerfully don uniforms when the call to battle comes, and march mindlessly lockstep toward their rendezvous with destiny. Nothing could be further from the truth - our last Hero generation, the GI's, were filled with communist and socialist agitation during the 1930's and they were deeply distrustful of many individual politicians.

The difference is that while Nomads have the historical "no", Heroes have the historical "yes". Unlike Nomads, who believe in the power of individuals but not the power of institutions, Heroes are raised with a collective mindset and a belief in the power of institutions - the RIGHT institutions. During a Crisis, Prophets articulate values to be fought for, Nomads draw up the plans that tell us how to fight - they must then sell those plans to Heros - using language they understand - the collective language of totality, of institutions. In World War II, to Hero eyes, the choice was living under one of two institutions, the Nazi Regime or a new American Order. Had Hitler never existed, America may very well have become a Socialist nation, because that was the choice that seemed to be looming in the 1930's. The GI's weren't thrilled to be getting off the boat at Normandy Beach - they did it because they saw it as a necessary sacrifice.

For Millenials., I found it rather interesating in that description of a grandson, these anti-patriotism sentiments are only expressed in PRIVATE. In public, they act the way they're expected to act - also very Hero. In a worst-case Crisis scenario Heros will still fight together, albeit unenthusiastically, because that's what's expected of them. In a best case scenario, to quote Strauss and Howe "Thirteeners will blossom into the kinds of Generals that young Millenial soldiers will follow off a cliff." If Nomads haven't yet engaged Millenials, it because Nomads themselves aren't yet fully engaged, but we're getting there. It's early in the 4T yet - give us all some time.

Bush is a loser with the thirteenth generation. The potential of winning the war doesn't change the classic Gen-X cynicism...nor can it change the fundamental anti-civic nature of Nomad generations.

Not exactly. You don't get people who were more anti-Bush than I was (I'm a registered Republican who voted for Clinton twice). 911 has become "Put up or shut up" time for Bush. That's why the majority of X'ers no longer give a crap about who actually won E2K. Bush is President - let him act like one. You're right that we're still anti-civic, but how that's going to play out now is that if GenX percieves him as being more shadow than substance he's gonna get voted out of office in 2004 so hard it'll make the 1994 Republican Congress upset look like a school budget vote.

That's how Nomads go from being anti-civic to being the Institution planners for the High. In the end, Nomads have only one political party - the Survival Party.

Wow, Barbara, these kids can really relate to me. I don't know how to say I feel! I just feel so good for once being used as a positive example. I was an example that people in my generation can relate to! I feel like a celebrity now. Your grandson sounds awesome, I hope you get to speak to him more and I hope my....um, my inspirational words or something are helping him. The story about their reaction to being drafted scared me. It felt like my hair was standing on end after I read the whole thing. WHOA I'd never experienced anything like that before. Could we end up being known as the Two-faced Generation? Somehow that whole thing sounds even more contradictory and cynical than Gen X. Something very reactive about that that reminded me of the Lost Generation and the beatniks. Even the Xers who someone once said "listen from everything on their radio from Led Zeppelin to Rush Limbaugh in a single day".

Wow.

-Craig

No, your generation won't be two-faced. Heros only have one face, it just has many expressions. It's still too early in 4T to tell which one you're going wear.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delsyn on 2001-10-21 05:07 ]</font>

Delsyn's post reminds me of why I like Nomads so much.

On 2001-10-20 22:56, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:


Overall philosophy: (I'm entering dream land here) A mixture of Objectivism with libertarian fascism and a few shizoid personality characteristics thrown in. Basically, a population full of nothing but INTPs and ISTJs

"I'm in heaven..."

Heh, so that means that the personality of America would be a mix of me and Tristan (or you and Tristan)?

On 2001-10-21 09:40, madscientist wrote:
Heh, so that means that the personality of America would be a mix of me and Tristan (or you and Tristan)?

Heh :lol:
Interesting, thoughts Chris and Robert. However I do not see that happening, anyway isn't the term Libertarian Fascism an oxymoron?

On 2001-10-20 22:56, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:
I can honestly say that any and all fashion styles have been invented, since in the past 20 years almost nothing new has come out, and all the "rules" have been broken, and so forth.



Food: more of less the same.<

Hey Chris Loyd, food has changed alot! Only the appearance of food hasn't. Want a credible read about how food has become a manfactured item? Read: FAST FOOD NATION, by Eric Schlosser, 2001, New York Times Bestseller.

Unfortunately, if social comment is based on our perceptions of a biased environment; the conclusions we draw will be biased as well.

Throughout the period of time you quote, 1945, 1955,....Food has gone through an entire revolution in our country, only the presentation of it hasn't. Once again, the dichotomy of form over substance; in no small measure, the result of a culture that is subtely steered to financially enrich those in control, at the expense of others.

No, I'm not some conspiracy theory nut. Fast Food Nation covers not just the McDonaldazation of the planet, but how other forces work in concert with it.

Publishers Weekly stated:
"Schlosser establishes a seminal argument for the true wrongs at the core of America."

Very appropriate to this forum since the text social commentary dovetails with The Fourth Turning in many ways.

I don't know whether or not it is different in New Jersey, but here in St. Louis, this is exactly how things are. So maybe you are still in 3T there, but here, we are definitely in 4T. It's a truth here. People don't care for the popular culture, and it has become very irrevelant. And yes, there are manners now. People are now much nicer to people. Children are nicer, Xers are nicer, and families have really coalesced after 911.

I understand the first part, but...I mean Millies and even Xers pushing to "implement manners back in American society"? That sounds too far-out. I don't know Xer who's actually doing that. I mean, "Let's get a society based on morals, manners & modesty again" ? Sounds like something out of a "United We Stand" Boomer anchor's dream. At least it would if it were coming from Xers. -Craig

On 2001-10-20 21:56, HopefulCynic68 wrote:
You apparently haven't gone where I've been of late! I'm seeing a sea of flag and patriotic T-shirts, pins, and slogans from Xer and Millennial agers all around me.

:O:O:O:O:O:O:

Now I've seen everything!

<----- Insert the smily with the face going into shock here

On 2001-10-20 22:12, madscientist wrote:
If you talk to Xers, you will find that the REALLY care about defending their society. Besides, it's their home.

Defending their society, well everyone has something they want to defend. Defending the traditions and rules that make up the established United States of America sounds more like what Boomers do than anything else. And sure Xers live here but do they really commit to obeying all the laws of the U.S and it sstates like dutiful citizens or participating in voting, civic referenda and other affairs of the government? They're just not, well.....a wheel of THE UNITED STATES. So....define "defending" "their society".
-Craig

On 2001-10-21 14:05, sv81 wrote:

Hey Chris Loyd, food has changed alot! Only the appearance of food hasn't. Want a credible read about how food has become a manfactured item? Read: FAST FOOD NATION, by Eric Schlosser, 2001, New York Times Bestseller.

I know what you mean, manufactured food has become the norm since the end of WW2 at the cost of people's health. :sad:

I am hoping for the day as Arthur C Clarke predicts, when humanity invents artifical food. We will bring back cheap healthy food and less of this junk food crap. :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tristan Jones on 2001-10-21 17:09 ]</font>

On 2001-10-21 17:09, Tristan Jones wrote:

I am hoping for the day as Arthur C Clarke predicts, when humanity invents artifical food. We will bring back cheap healthy food and less of this junk food crap. :smile:

We have already made that invention: artifical food is here, it's the crap we eat.

On another point, I found the site that unifies the broad discussions on generations, the gross Clinton jokes and the concept of the government being only as good as what the people deserve.

http://www.rimbaud.freeserve.co.uk/pitythenation.htm

Enjoy.

I just finished reading the Fourth Turning and like everyone began to speculate about the significance of 911 and the catalyst event for a 4T. It of course seemed to early in the general scheme of things. I then began to put it into the perspective of how our media now shapes culture. There is a compression effect here that was explained very well in the news magizine release "Cool Hunting". For those that caught it, the show did a crediable job of depicting the effects of mass marketing/media syndicates on the elapsed time it now takes to bring "cool" to market. In fact this phenomena has compressed the response time it takes for our youth society and gen X to adopt to changes in culture. When veiwed from this perspective, 911 may not be too early for a catalyst event. I beleive that there is a core of boomers who saw the sixties, but where a step removedfrom the essense of participation and have been ready for a return to values. If any momentum builds amongst youth culture and Gen X acceptance of a turning, then 911 will be the day we all remember as the catalyst. So what does this foretell.....? For me, I have begun initial preparation for a winter storm.

On 2001-10-20 22:53, Susan Brombacher wrote:

I am going to be blunt. As far as Xers are concenred, you are dead wrong. I would say, if anything, Xers are the MOST patriotic. Perhaps it's because they are the ones with new families to protect and are therefore more concerneed with terrorist acts than others may be, but in my neck of the woods, at least, the most patriotic, flag-waving, God-Bless-America folks are the Xers. You are correct, however, in your observation of Silents being the least patriotic.

How can you say the Xers are more patriotic than the Boomers? The flag-buying, flag-displaying tacky Boomers? Even you bought a flag. I mean who's going around buying new flags and flag CLOTHING after they had patriotism but didn't express it as much? And who's telling me now that they take back everything they ever said about America and its policies? Without an exception they've been Baby Boomers. I mean who wants WAR? Xers are so relatively SILENT on this thing, more silent than the Silents in this issue, in that every time you walk up next to some 1970-born Xers they want to talk about where they should go for lunch...while half the time you walk past Boomers they're talking about the attack (or anthrax. Anthrax seems evenly dispersed among all the generations :cough::cough
The Xers who have families will want to keep them safe from terrorism with or without the flag, but what about the rest of the Xers...who still haven't raised families yet or never will?
Xers of either type don't seem to think carrying a flag will keep their children safe. I'll have to look long and hard before I find an Xer who's holding a flag decor anything (although I did see a grey-haired Silent woman with a flag-covered duffel bag the other day).

Nope, I don't think so. I haven't heard anyone complaining about Bush of late, least of all Xers, who seem to admire him. It's a great compliment for ANY Boomer--especially a Boomer in politics--to be admired even a little bit by an Xer.

I've still heard remarks that Bush is weak and is a fake president. When I've tried asking Xers what they think what they usually say is they'll be glad if the plan to eradicate terrorism works, but that can't magically change the fact that Bush is dumb. They're blunt. I heard one teacher at my school from Generation X remark on the incident and say that BUSH isn't really doing it anyway, his cabinet is doing all the brainwork and he'd be stuck in quicksand if he didn't have the cabinet. Right-wing Xers like Bush of course, but then the HopefulCynic Xers liked Republicans politicians back before E2K. There are some Xers who like Bush no matter what the weather.

Everyone here seen any evidence that people in their late twenties and early thirties generally hold feelings that Bush is illegitimate? What I've overheard on the matter always seems to indicate that Xers are pragmatists who don't think Bush is some god now that terrorists attacked the U.S.

Why do you think Nomad gens are anti-civic and cynical in the first place? Becuase they grew up in an America where NOTHING WORKED ANYMORE and adults acted like kids on a playground. Xers' splintery and disaffected culture was simply a diversion, something to keep them entertained until something better came along, that is, something they could finally care about. Until 9/11, they only seemed not to care partly to protect themselves, partly because the Big Issues so important to Silents and Boomers were irrelevant to them. 9/11 was their wake-up call, and, while you may think they are letting go of their 3T culture kicking and screaming, they are not. They are, in fact, the generation MOST willing to let go of the past that they themselves created. They are actually RELIEVED that they can finally take part in something that really means something to them and that they can identify with.

That was exactly what you said about how you feel towards 3T culture. You want to let go of it...you also want to let go of Xer culture (I think). You seem to consider yourself an Xer. But you sound like the Boomer mindset to me. People in that Jones range that carries at least 1958-1963 with it always seemed like Boomers to me. I know you point out some differences but I have the same reactions I have to Boomers, mostly because they behave the same way to teenagers that Boomers do. Now XERS....let's get down to the REAL Xers, the Kurt Cobains and Catherine Zeta-Joneses and Wynonas and Beastie Boys. They generally still haven't started families yet, and these people are dressing the same way as they did on September 10...over one month later. They're the pragmatic, survivalist earthy bunch who don't like the holy fighting of armageddon Boomers and Silents are contemplating, their view is you can object to terrorism without polarizing everything on us vs. them. Oh, her's one big piece of evidence that Xers really don't like Bush....I have heard no less than five Xers, some X teachers included, who expressed the opinion that Bush's "If you're not with us, you're was the terrorists" remark was complete bullshit. And he makes it sound like there are only two countries in the world. These people say, come on, we want to live in a peaceful world, whether you were born in America or Canada or Sweden or Norway or India. They have (Xers have) a fellow-human attitude after this attack and treat Middle Eastern Americans as just another post-attack victim. "Rainy day people don't lie when they tell you they've been down like you" I really wonder now if this line was written with the sympathetic X generation in mind. You won't see many flags on Xers, but how many Xers have you heard being racist or wanting to smoke Middle Eastern people out of the room? The Xer feeling that we're all human and flags and borderlines mean nothing, it's what you do...if that isn't unpatriotic I don't know what is. Do the same thing no matter what country you're in. That's very Gen-X.

If you look back I included Gen Y in Gen X for most of my last analysis. Being anti-war, still acting 3T in culture, the inclusion of Gen Y is reflected in that. If you want to look at six generations (not including the youngest kids and the Lost who are hard to find to observe) GI * Silent * Boomer * Jones * X * Y the Xers would be a little less extreme but don't forget that later Xers account for a big part of the mix as long as you're only going with S&H's four generations to simplify. GI * Silent * Boomer * X. One person born after 1961 whom I have seen change his views on Bush is Jon Stewart who said that jokes on Bush's pronouncing words like "subliminable" are not funny anymore, but he was born in 1962 and even '62ers always seemed like the rest of the Jonesers to me. Even before 9-11. More strict than cool. So you should keep in mind when reading my last analysis that people like him didn't really count. Yers in, jonesers out.

Wishful thinking my ass. I've seen people from six different generational groups talk and react visually in large numbers after 9-11 and the reason I say '73ers or '65ers aren't patriotic is because they aren't. What have I got to lose if THEY start waving flags? (Which they just aren't). How do MY emotions cause me to observe that true Xers, Silents, Boomers and GI's are doing totally different things? A few weeks back I posted a note all about how each of the different groups of birthyears behaved after 9-11 and a lot of it clearly couldn't have been wishful thinking. If I wrote what *I* wanted to happen I would have had the Boomers (including Jonesers) switch over and start being nice, drop the racism, and stop being strict. I would have said I see few to NO flags from anyone. But the Boomers with their flag-waving are here to stay. And flag-waving Xers aren't. If everything were as I wished I could have it, the GI's would just stay put and not make every day look like the Fourth of July...the way I admitted they were doing. I wouldn't give such a split description on the Silents...because I wouldn't care about them that much. But Silents DO factually have some of their strong points and some of their weak points. Even my take on Xers wasn't wholly positive. I could do without some of the gallows jokes they told. I actually thought this was the 4T a few weeks after the event happened, or at least was pretty sure it probably was and things were going to change. Now I've realized that the KEY things to look for haven't changed, that there hasn't been the peer and Xer backlash that I was anticipating that would leave me behind in the dirt. It was like I was standing inside a fallout shelter with my hands over my ears waiting for the BLOW any time now, but to my frustration the loud noise never came. -Craig

I understand the first part, but...I mean Millies and even Xers pushing to "implement manners back in American society"? That sounds too far-out. I don't know Xer who's actually doing that. I mean, "Let's get a society based on morals, manners & modesty again" ? Sounds like something out of a "United We Stand" Boomer anchor's dream. At least it would if it were coming from Xers. -Craig

No, no, no! That's not it at all. Of course Xers aren't advocating white gloves, finger bowls, hats in public and using the right fork at a debutante's ball. Nor are they advocating primpy, correct behavior in all situations or not having sex before marriage. What they ARE doing is showing, by example, how Americans can be decent and kind to each other, and help each other, rather than the everyone-out-for-himself greed and selfishness that was so pervasive before 911. You actually haven't noticed there isn't much interest in that anymore, and that the people who do it are simply ignored or squashed down? You haven't seen an increase in neighborliness and general friendliness, and less rudeness and meanness? And you can't be serious if you mean you PREFER rudeness and mean-spiritness to helpfulness and friendliness. Then again, maybe you do.

On 2001-10-21 17:54, Susan Brombacher wrote:

What they ARE doing is showing, by example, how Americans can be decent and kind to each other, and help each other, rather than the everyone-out-for-himself greed and selfishness that was so pervasive before 911. You actually haven't noticed there isn't much interest in that anymore, and that the people who do it are simply ignored or squashed down? You haven't seen an increase in neighborliness and general friendliness, and less rudeness and meanness? And you can't be serious if you mean you PREFER rudeness and mean-spiritness to helpfulness and friendliness. Then again, maybe you do.

Excellent Opinion Susan, Bringing up time honoured standards good manners and niceness back in our communities and public lives is one of good things about a 4T. This idiotic Fuck You, I going my way (pardon my French) slogan everybody worships has driven me nuts for years. Finally a seachange as occurred and I like it, we can go back to a much saner society. :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tristan Jones on 2001-10-21 18:21 ]</font>

On 2001-10-21 17:46, Craig '84 wrote:

The Xer feeling that we're all human and flags and borderlines mean nothing, it's what you do...if that isn't unpatriotic I don't know what is. Do the same thing no matter what country you're in. That's very Gen-X.

Craig, no offense, but you are so very, very wrong. You seem to be confusing xenophobia with patriotism. GenX is remaining open-minded about people because that's what is required. This is not the WWII Crisis. This Crisis is about America maturing to its leadership role in the world. In order to do that, respect for the world is required. Plus, it's pretty obvious that a lack of concern for events in the rest of the world is what got us here. Almost all the Xers I know are behind military force 100%, as long as it is backed up by the diplomatic and economic support to ease the tensions that produce terrorists. If anything, here on the West Coast it's GenY that is still burning flags, talking about running to Canada to escape the draft (as if there were going to be a draft), and describing Bush as an incompetent tyrant. But that's just because they were taught to think that way. It remains to be seen how they will mature.

Neil '70

On 2001-10-21 18:21, Tristan Jones wrote:
This idiotic Fuck You, I going my way (pardon my French) slogan everybody worships has driven me nuts for years.

You can blame the Awakening for that, Tristan. For all the good things that came out of it (women's, civil, and gay rights; more general acceptance of nonconformist behavior), it also brought with it a "do your own thing" mentality that morphed into the "fuck you" mindset of the 80s and 90s. I for one am only too glad to see that part of it go. I just hope we don't wind up throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

On 2001-10-21 17:46, Craig '84 wrote:

The Xers who have families will want to keep them safe from terrorism with or without the flag, but what about the rest of the Xers...who still haven't raised families yet or never will?
Xers of either type don't seem to think carrying a flag will keep their children safe. I'll have to look long and hard before I find an Xer who's holding a flag decor anything (although I did see a grey-haired Silent woman with a flag-covered duffel bag the other day).

Nope, I don't think so. I haven't heard anyone complaining about Bush of late, least of all Xers, who seem to admire him. It's a great compliment for ANY Boomer--especially a Boomer in politics--to be admired even a little bit by an Xer.

I've still heard remarks that Bush is weak and is a fake president. When I've tried asking Xers what they think what they usually say is they'll be glad if the plan to eradicate terrorism works, but that can't magically change the fact that Bush is dumb. They're blunt. I heard one teacher at my school from Generation X remark on the incident and say that BUSH isn't really doing it anyway, his cabinet is doing all the brainwork and he'd be stuck in quicksand if he didn't have the cabinet. Right-wing Xers like Bush of course, but then the HopefulCynic Xers liked Republicans politicians back before E2K. There are some Xers who like Bush no matter what the weather.

Actually, Craig, when Bush Junior first came on the scene, I was not eager to see him. I was afraid we (the right wingers) would end up with a rich-kid riding his name (he did ride his name to a point, of course), and that he wouldn't be up to the job, etc.

Bush had to win me over, through the course of E2K, and he did it. He could very easily have blown it, too. While I found his father likeable, I was disappointed (overall) by his presidency.

Bush began to seriously win me over when I noticed a tendency on his part to keep right on going when by all logic he was beaten. He showed a tendency to keep coming back, almost before anyone knew it. You could knock him down, but he didn't stay down.

Yes, I was a Bush supporter before 911, but he had already had to earn it during E2K, and the early days of his presidency.

Everyone here seen any evidence that people in their late twenties and early thirties generally hold feelings that Bush is illegitimate? What I've overheard on the matter always seems to indicate that Xers are pragmatists who don't think Bush is some god now that terrorists attacked the U.S.

I don't consider him a god. I do admire the way he is handling this, overall . I think he has made some errors, but not serious or irreversible ones.

Why do you think Nomad gens are anti-civic and cynical in the first place? Becuase they grew up in an America where NOTHING WORKED ANYMORE and adults acted like kids on a playground. Xers' splintery and disaffected culture was simply a diversion, something to keep them entertained until something better came along, that is, something they could finally care about. Until 9/11, they only seemed not to care partly to protect themselves, partly because the Big Issues so important to Silents and Boomers were irrelevant to them. 9/11 was their wake-up call, and, while you may think they are letting go of their 3T culture kicking and screaming, they are not. They are, in fact, the generation MOST willing to let go of the past that they themselves created. They are actually RELIEVED that they can finally take part in something that really means something to them and that they can identify with.

That was exactly what you said about how you feel towards 3T culture. You want to let go of it...you also want to let go of Xer culture (I think). You seem to consider yourself an Xer. But you sound like the Boomer mindset to me. People in that Jones range that carries at least 1958-1963 with it always seemed like Boomers to me. I know you point out some differences but I have the same reactions I have to Boomers, mostly because they behave the same way to teenagers that Boomers do. Now XERS....let's get down to the REAL Xers, the Kurt Cobains and Catherine Zeta-Joneses and Wynonas and Beastie Boys. They generally still haven't started families yet, and these people are dressing the same way as they did on September 10...over one month later. They're the pragmatic, survivalist earthy bunch who don't like the holy fighting of armageddon Boomers and Silents are contemplating, their view is you can object to terrorism without polarizing everything on us vs. them. Oh, her's one big piece of evidence that Xers really don't like Bush....I have heard no less than five Xers, some X teachers included, who expressed the opinion that Bush's "If you're not with us, you're was the terrorists" remark was complete bullshit. And he makes it sound like there are only two countries in the world. These people say, come on, we want to live in a peaceful world, whether you were born in America or Canada or Sweden or Norway or India. They have (Xers have) a fellow-human attitude after this attack and treat Middle Eastern Americans as just another post-attack victim. "Rainy day people don't lie when they tell you they've been down like you" I really wonder now if this line was written with the sympathetic X generation in mind. You won't see many flags on Xers, but how many Xers have you heard being racist or wanting to smoke Middle Eastern people out of the room? The Xer feeling that we're all human and flags and borderlines mean nothing, it's what you do...if that isn't unpatriotic I don't know what is. Do the same thing no matter what country you're in. That's very Gen-X.

Patriotism has absolutely nothing to do with hatred of foreigners, or a sense of national superiority, or any of the other nonsense that too often gets associated with it.

Patriotism simply means a desire to one's own nation survive, prosper, and improve. One can be thoroughly patriotic (in any T) and still wish other nations nothing but the best. (Actual belligerants in war being an obvious partial exception).

Also, when Bush starts talking about an 'us or them' stance, well, yes, that's nonsense. I suspect he himself knows that it can't literally work like that, but he also has a nation to rally, and if you check back, it's classic Prophet rhetoric.

Obvious example, the House of Saud could be said to be a terrorist supporter by some lights. But we're almost certainly not going to attack the Saudi government, unless things change radically. We need the House of Saud where it is right now.

There's plenty to be cynical about in this 4T (if it is one yet), but there was also plenty to be cynical about in the last one. World War II started with the express stated intent of liberating Poland. At the end of the war, Poland changed owners, but was certainly far from 'liberated'. Roosevelt assured the public of his intention to remain neutral while American military leaders were conferring with British leaders and plans were being laid for the nearly inevitable entry to the war.

Ever see the old U.S. war propaganda films from the early stages of WW II? They describe the USSR as a peaceful people, friendly and civilized and well-disposed to the West, Stalin as a great leader, etc. (No kidding! I've seen such films myself!)

There's always a big gap between the rhetoric and the reality in a 4T.

If you look back I included Gen Y in Gen X for most of my last analysis. Being anti-war, still acting 3T in culture, the inclusion of Gen Y is reflected in that. If you want to look at six generations (not including the youngest kids and the Lost who are hard to find to observe) GI * Silent * Boomer * Jones * X * Y the Xers would be a little less extreme but don't forget that later Xers account for a big part of the mix as long as you're only going with S&H's four generations to simplify. GI * Silent * Boomer * X. One person born after 1961 whom I have seen change his views on Bush is Jon Stewart who said that jokes on Bush's pronouncing words like "subliminable" are not funny anymore, but he was born in 1962 and even '62ers always seemed like the rest of the Jonesers to me. Even before 9-11. More strict than cool. So you should keep in mind when reading my last analysis that people like him didn't really count. Yers in, jonesers out.

Wishful thinking my ass. I've seen people from six different generational groups talk and react visually in large numbers after 9-11 and the reason I say '73ers or '65ers aren't patriotic is because they aren't. What have I got to lose if THEY start waving flags? (Which they just aren't). How do MY emotions cause me to observe that true Xers, Silents, Boomers and GI's are doing totally different things? A few weeks back I posted a note all about how each of the different groups of birthyears behaved after 9-11 and a lot of it clearly couldn't have been wishful thinking. If I wrote what *I* wanted to happen I would have had the Boomers (including Jonesers) switch over and start being nice, drop the racism, and stop being strict. I would have said I see few to NO flags from anyone. But the Boomers with their flag-waving are here to stay. And flag-waving Xers aren't. If everything were as I wished I could have it, the GI's would just stay put and not make every day look like the Fourth of July...the way I admitted they were doing. I wouldn't give such a split description on the Silents...because I wouldn't care about them that much. But Silents DO factually have some of their strong points and some of their weak points. Even my take on Xers wasn't wholly positive. I could do without some of the gallows jokes they told. I actually thought this was the 4T a few weeks after the event happened, or at least was pretty sure it probably was and things were going to change. Now I've realized that the KEY things to look for haven't changed, that there hasn't been the peer and Xer backlash that I was anticipating that would leave me behind in the dirt. It was like I was standing inside a fallout shelter with my hands over my ears waiting for the BLOW any time now, but to my frustration the loud noise never came. -Craig

The last 4T started very slowly, as the Great Depression worsened. Remember, the last time the 4T started around 1929-1930, not 1941. The Revolutionary 4T started out slowly, too, bit by bit, as relations between the Colonies and Parliament worsened.

Don't confuse waving the flags around with true patriotism, as I've said before. They can go together, but they don't have to.

On 2001-10-21 20:51, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

Patriotism has absolutely nothing to do with hatred of foreigners, or a sense of national superiority, or any of the other nonsense that too often gets associated with it.

Patriotism simply means a desire to one's own nation survive, prosper, and improve.

I think that's true. Now which one of you has the courage to acknowledge that such partriotism can and does include rights for people based on race? Not racial superiority, but an equality based on performance, not entitlement?

For all of my adult working life, I have faced discrimination because I'm an average white guy. Facing discrimination in education, employment and other opportunities, I have come to see that the 3T mentality panders to radical individualism, and radical egaltarinism. The unraveling affects the working class guy first, since he supports a system that patently doesn't work.

So, unlike so many people that just want to get back to T.V., I, for one welcome the demands of the fourth turning. I welcome a hasty end to affirmative action programs, a major revamping of our welfare system, and a wholesale reevaluation of every entitlement program.

It won't happen because I will it, and there isn't any force for change in a 3T world: in fact, those systems cannot even get out of their own way. Our author/hosts S & H said as much. However, the crisis, if it runs true to history, is a call for survival, and survival needs to include the class of people that pay for the system but don't proportionately get the benefit.

How many readers here think the crisis of terrorism, be it WTC, anthrax, or bombings will cause the changes I suggest?

A few pages back somebody said that jokes about Nixon were being made right up to his death. I found this on a T-shirt being worn by a character (Boomer, I think) in a comic strip:
<p align=center>I don't care
if he's dead
IMPEACH NIXON!


This from the same cartoonist, Alison Bechdel, who came up with the gem, "Does anal-retentive have a hyphen?"

On 2001-10-19 13:58, Jenny Genser wrote:
It occurs to me that living and working right here in Arlington Virginia, 2 miles from the Pentagon, that I'm smack in the middle of a new 4T type mood.

I live just a wee bit South of you in Richmond, but we usually head up to DC several times a month. I admit that I haven't been up there since the Sept. 11th attacks, but this weekend we needed to go up for some errands that we needed to run.

And I can't describe to anyone on here what it was like to come down 395 towards the 14th street bridge and see that burnt gash in the side of the Pentagon. I've driven by the Pentagon so many times that I almost took it for granted, and there it was changed horrifically.

My fiance and I, after doing our errands in Georgetown, headed back to the Pentagon, where, unlike what I've heard about NYC you are able to pull up right next to the damaged side of it, and stand there less then 500 feet away from the wreckage. And you don't know really how to feel. You don't know what to say to all the people standing around you feeling the same thing.

The weirdest thing was seeing planes coming in over the Potomic to National. I can't even imagine what it must be like to be on a plane coming into National, and flying right over the site of that attack.

I can say that seeing that changed me a little, at least it made me more resolute in wanting to see this all erradicated from the face of the Earth.

I'd suggest that anyone who feels that we shouldn't be getting involved in this take a trip down to the Pentagon and stand there on the graves of 189 people. Perhaps they'll understand then.

Standing there, I was certain we'd passed a threshold that we're not going to return from. We need to change the world now. Whether we move at lightning pace, like everyone who still thinks we're in the 3T expects to happen with the 4T change, or at a snails pace, which I think is more realistic.

Standing there, on that hill and staring at that horrible site, made me certain we're in the 4T.

Jen

On 2001-10-21 14:05, sv81 wrote:

On 2001-10-20 22:56, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:
I can honestly say that any and all fashion styles have been invented, since in the past 20 years almost nothing new has come out, and all the "rules" have been broken, and so forth.



Food: more of less the same.<

Hey Chris Loyd, food has changed alot! Only the appearance of food hasn't. Want a credible read about how food has become a manfactured item? Read: FAST FOOD NATION, by Eric Schlosser, 2001, New York Times Bestseller.

In the old forum, there was a thread on food and generations (or turnings). I don't know if it got moved up into the new forums. If not, it should be revived. This discussion belongs on that thread.