Oh, I don't know, Marc...it's kind of fascinating sometimes to see what deranged minds think up.

As for Mr. Putin's visit to Crawford, I hope he enjoys and appreciates the natural beauty of West Texas as much as Mr. Bush does. It says a lot about one's character when you can manage to find the beauty in all places. 4Ts usually bring about realignments of countries. Having Russia become part of the NATO and Euro alliances may be just around the corner. Did any of us born in the Cold War think we'd ever live to see the day?

On 2001-11-15 10:59, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

Eighty-some years after the left's most cherished memory, and now Russia is finally poised to enter the twentieth century.

"the left's most cherished memory"? what the hell is that? the russian revolution? i would bet very few of what you refer to as "the left" have any fondness for that event.


TK

"'the left's most cherished memory'? what the hell is that?" Wonders TrollKing. "the russian revolution? i would bet very few of what you refer to as "the left" have any fondness for that event."


The world was a very different place before you were born, TrollKing. While the Klingons developed the world's first 'cloaking device,' the 'left' has developed similar means of detection avoidance.

One might consider Growing up a red-diaper baby in New York

Quote:
[I]n 1993, Radosh was denied a job in George Washington University's history department. "If I had still been a Communist writing left-wing history, I probably would have breezed in. But faculty members practicing a politically correct version of McCarthyism blackballed me."

On 2001-11-15 14:57, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

The world was a very different place before you were born, TrollKing. While the Klingons developed the world's first 'cloaking device,' the 'left' has developed similar means of detection avoidance.

i have to wonder, are you capable of making a point without resorting to condescension? and if you have a point to make, make it-- don't expect me to go leafing through amazon.com pages or buy some book to figure out what you're getting at.


TK

On 2001-11-15 10:46, Dave Updegrove wrote:
Blowing smoke? Deluded? Or something more chilling and sinister on the horizon? Here is a transcript of the BBC Interview with Mullah Omar, for discussion purposes only:

Omar is a psychotic. And I don't use that word lightly - according to reports he's considered insane in a part of the world where crazy mullahs are a growth industry. He reminds me a great deal of the Black Knight from Monty Python's Holy Grail - continuing to shout defiance even as his arms and legs are hacked off. In the end, you can't reason with true fanatics like the Taliban - were Omar rotting in a Western prison he'd continue to attack his enemies with phantom legions that exist only in his own mind. The only way people like Omar and the Taliban gain power is when non-crazy would-be tyrants with a terribly frightening agenda lend them support.

The fall of the Taliban reveals them to be what they always were - a cabal of lunatic Afghans who couldn't run a deli, much less a country, without the assistance of Arab and Pakistani colonialists. The Taliban was always a shell, an umbrella held up by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda to shield them from view until they were ready to launch their jihad.

We still need to mop up the remains of the Taliban, but this war is far from over. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are NOT crazy - they're evil, and that makes all the difference in the world. Whether Al Qaeda's destruction follows swiftly or slowly now that the Taliban is joining the Nazis and the Soviet Union in history's dung heap, even then, that's only the beginning of the Crisis. We must work to eliminate the conditions that promote these animals - and promote what can be seen as a universal human desire - liberty.

I'm amazed (though I shouldn't be) at how our pessimistic, left-leaning and frequently anti-American media who, just a week ago were calling Afghanistan a "quagmire", can so dramatically under-report the pained crying out of the world's people for liberty and the fact that the moment an oppressed people get a chance to TRULY express themselves - they express their love for America. It happened in Kabul, it happened in Iraq, it recently happened in Tehran, it happened in Moscow and it happened in Tien An Men Square before it was crushed by tanks.

Is America perfect? Hardly. One element of the Crisis is going to involve taking a hard look at ourselves and moving the real America closer to the dream of America that these oppressed people love. All too often what American leaders - especially during the recent Unravelling and the High - have done is to sacrifice the dream of America on the altar of "realpolitik" - a catchphrase built from American leaders' short-sighted power-grabbing and the American populace's inward looking indifference.

What this war, I think, has shown the world is that America is BETTER. It's better than tyranny, It's better than close-mindedness, it's better than fanatic theocracies, it's better to have a country that sometimes fails to live up to it's ideals than to have one that doesn't even pretend to have any. What I think this war has shown America is that the rest of the world matters and that the gift of being an American bears a responsibility to be a beacon for the world and to fight for what's right.

Several columnists have pointed out that even as our elected leaders are urging us to go back to our pre-9/11 lifestyles - most of us don't want to! The attack and the subsequent fight in Afghanistan have filled most of us with a powerful resolve. It is THIS reaction that makes me believe we have turned the corner into 4T. In the past Crisis has usually meant war, but it doesn't have to, what the Crisis is is the reaction of the rank-and-file to a flash point in history. Most folks are ready to roll up their sleeves and get to work. Most of our so-called "leaders", our politicians, our media pundits, our celebrities, are those most invested in maintaining the status quo - in holding on to a 3T as long as possible. I'd say most of them will dissapear in the next few years almost as fast as the ratings for "Survivor."



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delsyn on 2001-11-15 16:40 ]</font>

TrollKing write, "i have to wonder, are you capable of making a point without resorting to condescension?"

None intended, I assure you. I merely underscore my point with the authority of more information on said subject, as well as opinions of others more learned and notable than I. I do this only to offer evidence to support what I say. Hell, who is Marc Lamb? I have no credentials to speak of. Why should anyone listen to my take on what it means to be on the left side of the fence?

And I am not pushing anyone's book, TrollKing. Just more information to digest is all. Furthermore, bear in mind that many others are reading these posts. I am speaking to them, as well as you, TrollKing.

On the subject of the American left, was it any suprise that Clinton would chose a certain 'historic day' (fond 'memory of the left') to speak to the future leaders of America at Georgetown University's ornate Gaston Hall saying, "Here in the United States, we were founded as a nation that practiced slavery, and slaves quite frequently were killed even though they were innocent,"

So why is November 7th a 'historic day'? Guess, before you
click here. :smile:


p.s. Why don't you use your real name when posting, TrollKing? Just curious.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-11-15 17:38 ]</font>

d'oh! screwed up.... here's the edited version:

On 2001-11-15 17:11, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

None intended, I assure you. I merely underscore my point with the authority of more information on said subject, as well as opinions of others more learned and notable than I. I do this only to offer evidence to support what I say....

i'm glad the condescension was unintended, but i was speaking of the "before you were born" and klingon reference, not your use of links.

And I am not pushing anyone's book, TrollKing. Just more information to digest is all. Furthermore, bear in mind that many others are reading these posts. I am speaking to them, as well as you, TrollKing.

i know you're not pushing the book, but i just don't see why you don't simply express the thoughts and points you have gleaned from the reading. if you want to link it, fine, but could you do so to back up a clear point, rather than expecting the target of the link to make the point for you?

On the subject of the American left, was it any suprise that Clinton would chose a certain 'historic day' (fond 'memory of the left') to speak to the future leaders of America at Georgetown University's ornate Gaston Hall....why is November 7th a 'historic day'?....click here. :smile:

now, you see, here is a prime example of me not getting what you're up to. it appears that you trying to say that clinton chose 11/7 because of its significance in communist (only one extreme form of "left") history, but your evidence does not support this. i mean, sure he spoke there that day, and sure, that day has the significance you indicate, but there's no evidence of a link between the two (or maybe there is-- your link to the washington article was broken).

p.s. Why don't you use your real name when posting, TrollKing? Just curious.

whatever do you mean? TrollKing is my real name.


TK

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TrollKing on 2001-11-15 17:46 ]</font>

On 2001-11-15 14:57, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

While the Klingons developed the world's first 'cloaking device,' the 'left' has developed similar means of detection avoidance.

Marc, point of clarification on an historical point: I believe it was actually the Romulans who developed the cloaking device. I am recalling the episode where the Enterprise was ordered to steal the thing. Spock feigned the emotion of love -- or perhaps more accurately lust -- in order to seduce the female Romulan commander. In the meantime, Bones surgically altered Kirk's ears to make him appear to be Romulan (Romulans and Vulcans are of course distant relatives). While Spock was busy with the Romulan commander in her stateroom (note: this episode seemed to be out of synch with Spock's seven year Vulcan mating cycle -- am not certain how Spock could have "completed the mission"), Kirk, disguised as a Romulan centurion, made off with the cloaking device. Hell hath no fury like a Romulan comanderette scorned but the Enterprise, aided by the cloaking device, managed to evade the Romulan battle group and then capture it, and Spock's "girlfriend" was taken prisoner. She would later provide a wealth of intelligence while held captive in the Federation's "Hanoi Hilton."

I only mention all this, Marc, because it is of course of supreme historical significance. I suspect the source of your confusion lies with the fact that the Organian Empire was then in alliance with the Klingonese Empire. And as part of a "lend-lease" program, the Romulans were using Klingonese warships. In the episode, the Romulans were in fact using Klingonese vessels. But I believe that the cloaking device itself was a Romulan innovation. Give credit where credit is due.

To quote Virgil: "HTH."

On 2001-11-15 20:02, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2001-11-15 14:57, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

While the Klingons developed the world's first 'cloaking device,' the 'left' has developed similar means of detection avoidance.

Marc, point of clarification on an historical point: I believe it was actually the Romulans who developed the cloaking device. I am recalling the episode where the Enterprise was ordered to steal the thing. Spock feigned the emotion of love -- or perhaps more accurately lust -- in order to seduce the female Romulan commander. In the meantime, Bones surgically altered Kirk's ears to make him appear to be Romulan (Romulans and Vulcans are of course distant relatives). While Spock was busy with the Romulan commander in her stateroom (note: this episode seemed to be out of synch with Spock's seven year Vulcan mating cycle -- am not certain how Spock could have "completed the mission"), Kirk, disguised as a Romulan centurion, made off with the cloaking device. Hell hath no fury like a Romulan comanderette scorned but the Enterprise, aided by the cloaking device, managed to evade the Romulan battle group and then capture it, and Spock's "girlfriend" was taken prisoner. She would later provide a wealth of intelligence while held captive in the Federation's "Hanoi Hilton."

That's not as much of a joke as you might have intended. IIRC, the Federation used 'detention camps' for criminals, and weren't above a little mind-alteration. There were hints on some occasions that Kirk did not approve of his society's penal system.

I only mention all this, Marc, because it is of course of supreme historical significance. I suspect the source of your confusion lies with the fact that the Organian Empire was then in alliance with the Klingonese Empire. And as part of a "lend-lease" program, the Romulans were using Klingonese warships. In the episode, the Romulans were in fact using Klingonese vessels. But I believe that the cloaking device itself was a Romulan innovation. Give credit where credit is due.

To quote Virgil: "HTH."

"Organian Empire"? Did you mean the Romulan Empire?

On 2001-11-15 20:17, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

"Organian Empire"? Did you mean the Romulan Empire?

Hold on, there. Do you mean that the Klingonese Empire was the Organian Empire? I thought that was the Romulan Empire? [To the side: Marc, help me out on this!]

On 2001-11-15 11:31, Lis '54 wrote:
Oh, I don't know, Marc...it's kind of fascinating sometimes to see what deranged minds think up.

As for Mr. Putin's visit to Crawford, I hope he enjoys and appreciates the natural beauty of West Texas as much as Mr. Bush does. It says a lot about one's character when you can manage to find the beauty in all places. 4Ts usually bring about realignments of countries. Having Russia become part of the NATO and Euro alliances may be just around the corner. Did any of us born in the Cold War think we'd ever live to see the day?

Well, he wasn't born during the Cold War, but R. Reagan did hint of a belief that this could happen. He actually did maintain (IIRC) in his first State of the Union address that the USSR could be broken up if the pressure was kept on.

At the time, the left mocked, and even the right didn't take his words too seriously.

It is interesting, though: almost all the science fiction of the Cold War period assumed one of two things: either nuclear war eventually destroys one or both superpowers, or else the USSR/USA standoff endures well into the 21st century. I can't think of many if any that ever dared predict a Soviet collapse in the 20th century without a serious war.

On 2001-11-15 20:22, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2001-11-15 20:17, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

"Organian Empire"? Did you mean the Romulan Empire?

Hold on, there. Do you mean that the Klingonese Empire was the Organian Empire? I thought that was the Romulan Empire? [To the side: Marc, help me out on this!]

There was no Organian Empire as such. The Klingons had some kind of a trade/defense alliance thing going with the Romulans. The Organians had just their one planet (and that's all they needed, too!)

Good post Delsyn. I agree with your last paragraph completely.

On 2001-11-15 20:02, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Marc, point of clarification on an historical point: I believe it was actually the Romulans who developed the cloaking device. I am recalling the episode where the Enterprise was ordered to steal the thing. Spock feigned the emotion of love -- or perhaps more accurately lust -- in order to seduce the female Romulan commander. In the meantime, Bones surgically altered Kirk's ears to make him appear to be Romulan (Romulans and Vulcans are of course distant relatives). While Spock was busy with the Romulan commander in her stateroom (note: this episode seemed to be out of synch with Spock's seven year Vulcan mating cycle -- am not certain how Spock could have "completed the mission"), Kirk, disguised as a Romulan centurion, made off with the cloaking device. Hell hath no fury like a Romulan comanderette scorned but the Enterprise, aided by the cloaking device, managed to evade the Romulan battle group and then capture it, and Spock's "girlfriend" was taken prisoner. She would later provide a wealth of intelligence while held captive in the Federation's "Hanoi Hilton."

I leave for a couple of days, and the posts go right back to T.V., as if the plots had some significance to the fourth turning.

T.V. is a symptom, not a cause. Remember, Star Trek, like Dune, has no facts. The symbolic fictional figures can speak to human existence (allegory), but are partial as best for two reasons:

First, not everybody on this site is a Trekie. The episodes, although repeated ad nauseum don't touch all age groups.
Second, the burden of communication doubles, when we need to comprehend both the real world and the Trek world. Obviously not everybody sees the same story in either world.

Just as Dune left for another forum, (culture?)and our little diatribe on religion needed to go (spirituality); Star Trek should be beamed up to its home as well (StarTrek.com).

For another (darker) view on the Taliban's retreat and what it signifies, check out http://www.stratfor.com
You do have to be a member to get the info, but I think many people on this forum would be interested in the services of this strategic forecasting service, and it will be well worth it as we head into the snows of the coming secular winter.

On 2001-11-15 23:06, sv81 wrote:

On 2001-11-15 20:02, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Marc, point of clarification on an historical point: I believe it was actually the Romulans who developed the cloaking device. I am recalling the episode where the Enterprise was ordered to steal the thing. Spock feigned the emotion of love -- or perhaps more accurately lust -- in order to seduce the female Romulan commander. In the meantime, Bones surgically altered Kirk's ears to make him appear to be Romulan (Romulans and Vulcans are of course distant relatives). While Spock was busy with the Romulan commander in her stateroom (note: this episode seemed to be out of synch with Spock's seven year Vulcan mating cycle -- am not certain how Spock could have "completed the mission"), Kirk, disguised as a Romulan centurion, made off with the cloaking device. Hell hath no fury like a Romulan comanderette scorned but the Enterprise, aided by the cloaking device, managed to evade the Romulan battle group and then capture it, and Spock's "girlfriend" was taken prisoner. She would later provide a wealth of intelligence while held captive in the Federation's "Hanoi Hilton."

I leave for a couple of days, and the posts go right back to T.V., as if the plots had some significance to the fourth turning.

T.V. is a symptom, not a cause. Remember, Star Trek, like Dune, has no facts. The symbolic fictional figures can speak to human existence (allegory), but are partial as best for two reasons:

First, not everybody on this site is a Trekie. The episodes, although repeated ad nauseum don't touch all age groups.
Second, the burden of communication doubles, when we need to comprehend both the real world and the Trek world. Obviously not everybody sees the same story in either world.

Just as Dune left for another forum, (culture?)and our little diatribe on religion needed to go (spirituality); Star Trek should be beamed up to its home as well (StarTrek.com).

Ummm... those posts were a joke.

On 2001-11-15 23:06, sv81 wrote:
Just as Dune left for another forum, (culture?)and our little diatribe on religion needed to go (spirituality); Star Trek should be beamed up to its home as well (StarTrek.com).

hmmm... perhaps a separate forum on the wit and wisdom of ultra right-wing, anti-jewish hate groups might be in order too? then all that wish can sample their musings without all this additional clutter. hopefully, scotty can get a lock on that as well...:wink:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: enjolras on 2001-11-16 11:00 ]</font>

On 2001-11-16 10:54, enjolras wrote:

hmmm... perhaps a separate forum on the wit and wisdom of ultra right-wing, anti-jewish hate groups might be in order too? then all that wish can sample their musings without all this additional clutter. hopefully, scotty can get a lock on that as well...:wink:

I hate to get in the middle of this, but I was wondering what eljolras and/or Delsyn (who seem to be the most critical of sv81's links and/or views) thought of the nimn link he posted a while back.

On 2001-11-16 11:43, Justin '77 wrote:

On 2001-11-16 10:54, enjolras wrote:

hmmm... perhaps a separate forum on the wit and wisdom of ultra right-wing, anti-jewish hate groups might be in order too? then all that wish can sample their musings without all this additional clutter. hopefully, scotty can get a lock on that as well...:wink:

I hate to get in the middle of this, but I was wondering what eljolras and/or Delsyn (who seem to be the most critical of sv81's links and/or views) thought of the nimn link he posted a while back.

Okay, I'll bite. I'm not Delsyn or eljolras, but I am Jewish and have posted replies very critical about some of SV81's statements.

I peeked at the Web site. I don't remember the context in which SV81 posted it. However, I have a lot of sympathy towards Peace movement Jews. They are idealistic and trying to live their vision of a peaceable Judaism, which serves as an inspiration and model to other nations.

That said, the problem I have with the peace movement is that Israel needs a partner of peace, and given what I know about the Palestinian leaders, they're not willing to give an inch to Israel. True, maybe Israel's actions aren't the most perfect, but with angry neighbors surrounding them, they are in perpetual 4T -- they are fighting for their survival as a nation.

Another point about SV81. While I disagree with much that he says and finds some of his links to be groups with ideas I find repulsive, he does strike me as thoughtful and often posts very sharp, insightful ideas. I welcome reading all of his posts that don't deal with Israel. Oh well.

Again, TrollKing, no condescension intended with my 'before you were born' observation. I was merely stressing that history moves generationally, and that you may have never heard of 'red-diaper babies' (Silents) before (hence your 'what?' comments).

[TrollKing] i know you're not pushing the book, but i just don't see why you don't simply express the thoughts and points you have gleaned from the reading. if you want to link it, fine, but could you do so to back up a clear point, rather than expecting the target of the link to make the point for you?

[Lamb] I did. Perhaps you can go back and reread the post.

And while Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, Trekies, Duneys, and Organian Empires are of 'supreme historical significance,' I still say, that in terms of reality, yesterday marked a truly historic moment for both America and Russia. And it is 3T in the absolute extreme that, for the most part, this went completely unnoticed in the media, and here at T4T.com.

In otherwords, who in the hell really cares? :smile:

On a lighter note, a passing of the 3T that I'm sure we'll all applaud.

Springer's Ratings Spring a Leak

Jerry Springer's talk show ratings have plunged 60 percent, but he doesn't plan to change a thing.

After Sept. 11 he considered changes but quickly decided that was a bad idea, Broadcasting & Cable reports.

"We are so much a circus that it doesn't relate to anything else going on in the world, and to even treat anything differently would almost be disrespectful," he said. "If all of a sudden I had a serious show, everyone would be scratching their heads saying when are the transvestites going to come over and admit that bin Laden has panties under his whatever."

Leading Democrats in his home state of Ohio couldn't persuade him to run for the Senate three years ago, but politics could be in his future. "If I were going to do something in politics again, it would probably be in Ohio again," he threatened.

On 2001-11-16 12:04, Jenny Genser wrote:
Another point about SV81. While I disagree with much that he says and finds some of his links to be groups with ideas I find repulsive, he does strike me as thoughtful and often posts very sharp, insightful ideas. I welcome reading all of his posts that don't deal with Israel. Oh well.

Well, thank you. It's encouraging for someone to see the brighter side of what I have shared. Not all of my viewpoints are film noir.

We cite articles to share foreign ideas, not to guarantee their content - right? I have not, nor do not, embrace all the ideologies previously cited. They are contradictory to say the least. They focus on the contrast between culture, power, age and position of people. In other words, what T4T forum is about.

When I cite something ugly, it doesn't mean I believe in the ugliness, only that the ugliness is present, apparently real, (to someone), and that voice might affect both our history and our future.

Although I'll probably never get agreement on the ideas I have shared, (and that is not my point to begin with),I hope someday those who are so vehmently opposed to me will be willing to put down the tar brush, and reason their positions out, vis-a-vis mine. Instead, all I've seen is the usual labeling and name calling, without reasoned response.

Somewhere, I'm willing to share what I know to those who can listen. Who knows, they might go past prejudice and understand what I say. And of course, no one is obliged to agree.

On 2001-11-16 12:04, Jenny Genser wrote:
Another point about SV81. While I disagree with much that he says and finds some of his links to be groups with ideas I find repulsive, he does strike me as thoughtful and often posts very sharp, insightful ideas. I welcome reading all of his posts that don't deal with Israel. Oh well.

jenny,

i completely agree with you. sv81 also strikes me as often thoughtful with very sharp and insightful ideas. which is another reason why i find it so disturbing that someone of such apparent insight and intelligence seems willing to accept even the notion of a "global jewish conspiracy" which is patently false and totally unprovable, yet it maintains a life of its own because, i can only presume, of some innate sense of insecurity among its propagators. this very idea has about the same amount of "facts" to back it up and is just as fictional as your typical star trek episode or dune chapter which he suggested should have its own separate forum.

i agree that star trek and dune and how they relate to fourth turnings should probably have their own separate forums. and i also think that such ruminations over how the "global jewish conspiracy" affects our everyday lives or how the illuminati controls the world, and other works of fiction, should also have their own separate forums.

"When I cite something ugly, it doesn't mean I believe in the ugliness, only that the ugliness is present, apparently real, (to someone), and that voice might affect both our history and our future."


Gee, where have I seen those exact words posted before?