Mr. Lamb:

I made no mention of "give peace a chance." I just pointed out that you, like Sen. Orrin Hatch, had a tendency to exaggerate the number of dead at the Trade Towers. Orrin is Mr. Bush's and Ashcroft's front-man for Homeland Security and their assault on Individual Rights. His motives, as always, are political.

But as a Historian (and after reading your posts,you certainly earn that title), wouldn't you agree that the facts about this terrible tragedy should be accurate?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: cbailey on 2001-12-10 10:46 ]</font>

On 2001-12-10 06:08, Marc S. Lamb wrote:


Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld declined comment last week when asked if he considered Walker a traitor.

I predict this guy skates... in honour of the fallen heros at the battle of Columbia University, circa 1968. He'll be offered a tenured position at the University of Wisconsin... Willie Patton will be pleased. :smile:

"Mr. Lamb:

The number of those murdered at the Trade Towers was below 3500."

Good night! This changes everything. What the heck are we doing over there killing those guys. Somebody has got to get this news to Bush now, and stop this senseless killing.

"All we are saying, is give peace a chance."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-12-10 06:19 ]</font>

From that article:

"Walker's parents have described him as an introvert and pacifist who converted to Islam when he was 16. He studied in Yemen and Pakistan, but his parents lost contact with him about six months ago."

- Oh, well that explains everything. It was all a self-esteem building excercise! Well, good for him! He's clearly gotten over that whole "pacifist" thing.

Sometimes I'm ashamed to live in the San Francisco area.

"Through their attorney, Frank Lindh and Marilyn Walker, said Friday they are ``desperately worried'' about their son."

They also said the government had not given them any word about his their son's condition or whereabouts."

- so how come the newspaper was able to get the information?

Here's a little test you can give someone to determine whether or not their political belief fall somewhere within the "sane" spectrum or have crossed over that invisible line into dangerous nutbar land

"Except for the murders, racial and religious bigotry and warmongering nature of their leaders - what exactly was wrong with the political systems of both Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia?"

Most folks on the both the extreme left and right can't answer that question - or at least take a REALLY long pause before they come up with something.

John Walker's already given his answer.

I consider myself a social democrat. What I hate about this forum is how it veers either to the extreme right wing "all those damn leftists" position or the extreme leftist position of " the number of dead is now below 3500". Who gives a crap if the number of dead is 3000 or 4000? Does it really matter to all those widowers, widows, and orphans? And to the right wingers: don't lump me in with the "give John Walker parole" crowd. It's legitamite to oppose this war if, on priniciple, you oppose all war. But stop ranting about the casualties. Visit the WTC site here in New York. We can use more people to come here and give us support. Just because I support someone's right to a decent job, housing, and medical care and don't want the government either on my computer or in the bedroom doesn't mean I love Johnny Walker. Personally, I think he's a right wing (Islamic) fascist. He even said he supported the twin towers attack, something that even the Iranians denounced. How schmucky can y'all get.

On 2001-12-10 12:33, JayN wrote:
I consider myself a social democrat. What I hate about this forum is how it veers either to the extreme right wing "all those damn leftists" position or the extreme leftist position of " the number of dead is now below 3500". Who gives a crap if the number of dead is 3000 or 4000? Does it really matter to all those widowers, widows, and orphans? And to the right wingers: don't lump me in with the "give John Walker parole" crowd. It's legitamite to oppose this war if, on priniciple, you oppose all war. But stop ranting about the casualties. Visit the WTC site here in New York. We can use more people to come here and give us support. Just because I support someone's right to a decent job, housing, and medical care and don't want the government either on my computer or in the bedroom doesn't mean I love Johnny Walker. Personally, I think he's a right wing (Islamic) fascist. He even said he supported the twin towers attack, something that even the Iranians denounced. How schmucky can y'all get.

If you believe the discussion here represents the "exteme" of either the Right or Left, you need to widen your Web surfing.

Of course it's legitimate to oppose this war - from a variety of perspectives, many people do and I'd venture thar 98% percent of humanity would agree with your contention that war is a bad thing that should be avoided.

You'll need to give support and clarify your position as to WHY you oppose this specific war. If you take the pure pacifist route and oppose all violence on moral grounds that too is valid, so long as you are prepared to take it to it's logical extreme, which often means being willing to die for peace - understanding that others who do not live on the same moral planet you do will kill you without people weilding guns protecting you. There have been such moral exemplars in our history - but they're few and far between and they're far braver than me.

If you're not a pure pacifist then you need to offer not only reasons why you feel this war is wrong, but also offer a valid alternative response to being attacked on 9/11.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delsyn on 2001-12-10 14:24 ]</font>

On 2001-12-10 11:11, Delsyn wrote:

Here's a little test you can give someone to determine whether or not their political belief fall somewhere within the "sane" spectrum or have crossed over that invisible line into dangerous nutbar land

"Except for the murders, racial and religious bigotry and warmongering nature of their leaders - what exactly was wrong with the political systems of both Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia?"

Most folks on the both the extreme left and right can't answer that question - or at least take a REALLY long pause before they come up with something.

This is actually pretty funny. The problem is that our political leadership in its present incarnation does not appear to have a problem with either case. At least their actions for the past 10-15 years have been 100% consistent with seeking the same degree of power and control...at the expense of our individual liberty. Would you then say that our current political leadership, both parties, are the ultimate "nutbars"?

Concerning certain numbers, cbailey writes, "But as a Historian (and after reading your posts,you certainly earn that title), wouldn't you agree that the facts about this terrible tragedy should be accurate?"

While I had not noticed your earlier post about Hatch's estimate at 7000 dead (I find it hard to believe he'd exaggerate something, so widely discussed and easily verifiable, in order to score more points but...), nevertheless I took your correction as a diversionary tactic typical of the left. If accuracy was your only intention, then I was very close to the right number (as I did not qualify just the WTC) as Ms. Genser points out, and the following news quote confirms:

"Asked how many bombs and missiles had been used in the U.S.-led air campaign sparked by the September attack with hijacked airliners that killed nearly 3,900 Americans at the Pentagon and New York City's World Trade Center, Clarke said the total had reached about 12,000 at latest count."

But thanks for reading my posts. At the present time, I would have to quit my day job as an Video Producer in order to rightly qualify as a historian though. And you're quite right, accuracy is a valuable currency when seeking to maintain any real credibilty with those like Croaker, who love to poke holes (and have fun doing so) in my pet theories.

p.s. Personally, I find this little gem worth the price of admission:

Castro calls September 11 attacks a hard hit for leftist movements

Actually, I support this war. If you read my previous postings I have stated as such. My discussion about extreme left and extreme right was admittedly a bit of emotional ranting. Others on this do this too from time to time. I read many viewpoints from exteme Muslim to extreme pacifist to extreme Christian warmonger who wants to blow up all Muslims. Frankly I fit none of those categories. What I meant by extreme right wingers and extreme left wingers was in the American context. Jerry Falwell, though extreme by American standards with his "god punished us because of gays, et al", couldn't hold a candle to Mullah Omar or the Iranian Ayatollahs. Similarly, Susan Sontag, the Marxian feminist who believes that the toppling of the Twin Towers was the Third World paying us back for all of our alleged wrongs, could never hold a candle to Fidel Castro. I guess I ought to state IN THE AMERICAN CONTEXT next time I discuss extreme left and right. The attacks on the Pentagon and the Twin Towers was obviously horrific no matter how many were killed. But then you also have these SV81's out there who believe the Mossad did it. I won't even get into the dumbness of that . My discussion of pacifism was meant to defend them. I have friends who are principled pacifists. While I disagree I believe their voices need to be heard. They could really inform Americans that there are other points of views out there. Frankly, American meddling in others' affairs, no matter how much we may deny it, does have something to do with 911. I live in Brooklyn and take the train to the city a few times a week. I smell the ash in the air and I have been having asthma problems and nightmares in the days and weeks right after the attacks. My problems pale in comparison with others. I don't need lectures about patriotism from anyone. Believe me. One of my grandfathers served in the supply lines in Belgium while the Buzz Bombs were combing down and the other worked in the Philadelphia Navy Yard helping to build the ships that gave us VJ-Day.

This numbers game is kind of like the old commercial about prune consumption, ?Are four enough, are six too many??

For the record, in addition to the Killed in Action (KIA) and Wounded in Action (WIA) at the WTC, the Pentagon, and in the air on September 11, I give you the following with regard to proven activities of al Qaeda:

KIA WIA
WTC '93 6 1000
Mogadishu '93 18 84
Khobar Towers '96 19 500
Dar es Salam '98 11 72
Nairobi '98 212 4650
USS Cole '00 17 39
Total 283 6345

Seems to me the other cheek was turned one time too many about seven events ago.

Is Mr. John Walkar still a U.S. citizen? If not, he should be turned over to the Afghan government.

If so, he could be charged as a filibuster and in a token of friendship turned over to India for his "work" in Kashmir after a long sentence in our prisons if found mentally sound. If not, send him to the Ezra Pound asylum until he gets better. Perhaps the world will get ghazels instead of cantos.HTH

On 2001-12-10 14:49, JayN wrote:
The attacks on the Pentagon and the Twin Towers was obviously horrific no matter how many were killed. But then you also have these SV81's out there who believe the Mossad did it. I won't even get into the dumbness of that .

Good, no dumbness, for I never said the Mosssad did it. Why put words in my mouth?

I hope not. Some of your links suggested that this was the case.

"Seems to me the other cheek was turned one time too many about seven events ago."

What a legacy, huh? The same man, who left a woman, he had just raped, with a bleeding lip, later leaves a nation, he has just bamboozled, with a bleeding heart.

And then, in the aftermath, has the audacity to tell a bleeding America it's her fault, and she must REPENT for "past sins."

And when I call attention to these things, one, who calls themself "choselh," as a heckler in a crowd, shouts, "I would like to volunteer to prescribe some Prozac for Marc "S" Lamb, which should treat his obsessive compulsive disorder and stop these endless, repetitive posts about Bill Clinton."

Amazing.

Be not decieved, my children, the Clintons own the Democratics still. To wit,
Terry McAuliffe, Chairman of the DNC, is a Clinton guy: A mere puppet of the machine run by a felon, and his sorry-excuse for a wife.

It's enough to make for a Thomas "disappointment" Daschle

Wake up, America!


p.s. Not to mention, the very epitome of modern liberalism,
Slate Editor, Michael Kinsley Has Parkinson's...





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-12-10 20:46 ]</font>

When I'm wrong I ought to admit it. So if I said something about you that you did not say I shouldn't have said it. This is not to defend my mistake but why link to david duke at any rate? I think that's where I may have gotten the impression. Again, I should not have said that about you. So you get an apology from me. I hope that this suffices.

On 2001-12-10 20:31, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

And when I call attention to these things, one, who calls themself "choselh," as a heckler in a crowd, shouts, "I would like to volunteer to prescribe some Prozac for Marc "S" Lamb, which should treat his obsessive compulsive disorder and stop these endless, repetitive posts about Bill Clinton."

Amazing.

Any sign of the mail buoy yet, Captain? Shall I have Starbuck relieve you, sir?

<font color="blue">
<font size=8>

I will pray for you all.
Goodbye for a while.

"Wow. I really hate to say this, but the idea that the Bush administration knew about the WTC attacks but did nothing to prevent them actually makes sense to me." --choselh

Probably makes a lot of sense to Willie Patton, as well. :smile:


"Goodbye for a while" --sv81

Well that's one bigot gone...

Big Government Looks Better Now
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Dec10.html

By Charles E. Schumer
Tuesday, December 11, 2001; Page A33


The recent disputes in Congress over airline security and stimulating the economy, like so many other arguments in Washington, revolve around a fundamental question: How big should the federal government be? Since the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980, those who believe the federal government should shrink have had the upper hand. Sept. 11 changed all that. For the foreseeable future, the federal government will have to grow. The next few years will more closely resemble the mid-1930s, when federal power dramatically increased; but this new deal will involve an overarching federal effort to bring physical, not economic, security to our people.

Here's something interesting - it's a Web site that purports to gauge your ACTUAL political leanings more accurately than on the traditional "Left/Right" scale. It also includes a sort of "North/South" scale where South is Libertarian and North is Authoritarian.

The questionnaire itself isn't perfect and isn't as detailed as it really should be - but it's tought to expect true accuracy from only 6 pages. Still, it's an interesting conversation starter.

For those of you who are interested, here are my results: (Positive numbers are right of center and Authoritarian. The scale goes from -10.00 to 10.00 with 0.00 in the absolute center.

My results:

Economic Left/Right: 2.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.08

Which puts me in the same quadrant as Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman although my belief that government does have some legitimate functions (Police the streets, protect the shores, assure equal opportunity for all to participate in a free market so long as that does NOT result in attempting to legislate equal results) would probably get me kicked out of both of their little sewing circles.

On 2001-12-10 22:57, sv81 wrote:
<font color="blue">
<font size=8>

I will pray for you all.
Goodbye for a while.

i think i can safely speak for the illuminati, the trilateral commission, and the global jewish conspiracy in the media, wall street and the u.s. government, and possibly even the state of israel as well (being that i too am just an unwitting pawn of all the above serenely slumbering away in my ignorance of how i am being constantly manipulated by these supremely powerful forces)in saying thank you for your prayers. taking over the world and controlling people's minds is not as easy a task as some might think and we welcome as much help as we can get from every quarter possible.

perhaps i shall e-mail david duke and ask him and his fellow klansmen if they too would care to offer up a plea to the almighty for our well being. perhaps tom metzger might be obliging as well. heavens, the woods must be veritably overflowing with members of the aryan nation, neo-nazis, jew watchers, and conspiracy theorists galore, along with others of like mind, who are currently full of christmas cheer and good will towards their fellow man (well, some of their fellow man anyway), who would be more than happy to fall on their knees and pray for our good fortune as well. after all, without us conspiring behind the scenes what would they have to do all day?! oh well, 'tis the season!

happy channukah!... :wink:



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: enjolras on 2001-12-11 15:22 ]</font>

On 2001-12-11 09:35, Delsyn wrote:

Here's something interesting - it's a Web site that purports to gauge your ACTUAL political leanings more accurately than on the traditional "Left/Right" scale. It also includes a sort of "North/South" scale where South is Libertarian and North is Authoritarian.

The questionnaire itself isn't perfect and isn't as detailed as it really should be - but it's tought to expect true accuracy from only 6 pages. Still, it's an interesting conversation starter.

For those of you who are interested, here are my results: (Positive numbers are right of center and Authoritarian. The scale goes from -10.00 to 10.00 with 0.00 in the absolute center.

My results:

Economic Left/Right: 2.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.08

Which puts me in the same quadrant as Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman although my belief that government does have some legitimate functions (Police the streets, protect the shores, assure equal opportunity for all to participate in a free market so long as that does NOT result in attempting to legislate equal results) would probably get me kicked out of both of their little sewing circles.

Delsyn, if you are interested, we have been discussing this on another thread beginning on this page:

http://www.fourthturning.com/forums/...m=10&start=210

I would substitute "capitalism" for their somewhat misleading label of "neo-liberalism" and perhaps shift their boundaries slightly. But I have been further subdividing the chart into various factions which may illustrate how the sides will line up in the coming realignment. Have not posted my conclusions though. If you have any ideas, please post them on the thread.

Lakewood, Ohio is putting up a patriotic mural.
And BTW, will the State of the Union next month be the next 9/11?

New developments reveal that with the rise of intolerance towrards extremists TFT website has entered The 4T. Kudos to all of you and happy Chanukah to you all.

On 2001-12-12 22:43, choselh wrote:

I have no idea what is going on in this thread. I read back to try to figure it out, but I still can't. BUT, since I seem to have been mentioned a few times, I thought I should reply.

First of all, I am not a "themself" ... I am one person. Secondly, who is Willie Patton and why would it matter if he agrees with me? Are we talking about Sir Stonewall? If so, I'm glad to be in his company. Thirdly, John Lennon was no vegetarian. You're thinking of Paul McCartney.

I hope this clears things up. :smile:

Avast, Choselh. The captain merely pursueth Moby Dick. Hast thou seen the great white whale?

Here's a pretty scary article about a regional war in the Middle East.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=25668

Another interesting article. This one is a warning from Mubarak about the destruction that could wreak tremendous havok in the Middle East.

Mubarak fears war could lead to
annihilation


Special to World Tribune.com
MIDDLE EAST NEWSLINE
Thursday, December 13, 2001

CAIRO ? Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has warned that the Middle
East, including Israel, is heading toward destruction.

Mubarak said the region is sliding into war that could involve weapons of mass
destruction. The Egyptian president said he relayed the warning to the United
States and American Jewish leaders.

In an interview to the Beirut-based A-Safir daily, Mubarak said the
continuation of the Israeli-Palestinian war could lead to regional war. He
portrayed a scenario in which Israel would assassinate Palestinian Authority
Chairman Yasser Arafat, a move that would spark first anarchy and then
revenge.

"I have no doubt that the people's patience will run out and this will force
governments to engage in arms race, with the goal to acquire weapons of mass
destruction," Mubarak said. "Biological weapons ? even a test tube of germs
can destroy an entire nation ? chemical weapons and nuclear weapons can be
brought in suitcases from the former Soviet Union."

"Then the entire region, including Israel, is liable to be annihilated," Mubarak
added.

Mubarak said Egypt wants the elimination of all nonconventional weapons from
the region. He said he has warned Washington and American Jewish leaders
that Israel's weapons of mass destruction threaten the region.

"I am not saying that in another year or two the area will be destroyed,"
Mubarak said. "Perhaps in another five or 10 years the region could be
destroyed by nuclear weapons, chemical weapons or biological weapons. No
one will be saved."

The Egyptian president acknowledged that the Bush administration has been
under congressional pressure to stop arms sales to Cairo. But Mubarak said
U.S. interests would ensure that such sales proceed.