I posted this on the other thread about whether we're in the 4T, but I think it's relevant here too:

http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/...X058CU6VC.html

Looks like a 4T sort of idea to me.

Yes, HopefulCynic, your post raises some real so-called "4T" scenario. Big Brother implants the mysterious "666" upon our very souls (and bodies). Scarey, huh?

Well, guess what? It's true.

Yes, a "generation" that comes after you will no doubt go for it ("666"), hook, line, and sinker. Do not doubt this. One need only research 'history' in order to understand this.

Yours is a generation that will decide to what extent they will succeed.

Are you, and yours "up to it," HopefulCynic?

On 2001-12-17 20:55, Marc S. Lamb wrote:



Yes, HopefulCynic, your post raises some real so-called "4T" scenario. Big Brother implants the mysterious "666" upon our very souls (and bodies). Scarey, huh?

Well, guess what? It's true.

Yes, a "generation" that comes after you will no doubt go for it ("666"), hook, line, and sinker. Do not doubt this. One need only research 'history' in order to understand this.

Yours is a generation that will decide to what extent they will succeed.

Are you, and yours "up to it," HopefulCynic?

Time will tell, Marc. Time will tell.

Here is a concise and comprehensive explanation of how the PATRIOT Act affects you as an individual American:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1109-09.htm

Published on Friday, November 9, 2001
The New USA PATRIOT Act
Are You a Patriot?
by John Kaminski
The USA Patriot Act, now passed and the law of the land, has eliminated the Constitutional guarantee of probable cause when investigating a crime, and now allows the police ? at any time and for any reason ? to enter and search your house, your files, your bank account ? and not even tell you about it.

Are you a patriot? Well, the fact of the matter is, you are whether you want to be or not. But are you an American or a mindless corporate stooge? Well, that's another question.

The recent passage and signing of the Patriot Act has effectively nullified at least six amendments of the Bill of Rights addendum to the U.S. Constitution. As a result of this, America is longer America, but a police state, pure and simple. This Patriot Bill is, in fact, a massive violation of the Constitution it purports to uphold and improve.

Among other things, it mandates that judges give police search warrants when they ask for them, for any reason. In fact, judges can't deny these warrants to police, because police don't need a stated reason to ask for them.

The Bill of Rights is the cornerstone of American freedom. During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution in the 1790s, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government. Many states would not have signed the original Constitution without knowing that these amendments would be added, according to the federal website which displays the Constitution. These amendments became known as the Bill of Rights, which Americans have cherished, protected and fought for for over 200 years.

The Patriot Act rushed through Congress and signed by President George W. Bush is a major step toward a totalitarian state in which individual liberty is crushed by the whim of police and corporate demagogues masquerading as patriots.

The Patriot Act:

* Violates the First Amendment freedom of speech guarantee, right to peaceably assemble provision, and petition the government for redress of grievances provision; it violates the First Amendment to the Constitution three times. More on this below.

* Violates the Fourth Amendment guarantee of probable cause in astonishingly major and repeated ways. The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution reads: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized." The Patriot Act, now passed and the law of the land, has revoked the necessity for probable cause, and now allows the police, at any time and for any reason, to enter and search your house ? and not even tell you about it.

* Violates the Fifth Amendment by allowing for indefinite incarceration without trial for those deemed by the Attorney General to be threats to national security. The Fifth Amendment guarantees that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, and the Patriot Act does away with due process. It even allows people to be kept in prison for life without even a trial.

* Violates the Sixth Amendment guarantee of the right to a speedy and public trial. Now you may get no trial at all, ever.

* Violates the Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment).

* Violates the 13th Amendment (punishment without conviction).

Most of the following information is taken from the ACLU's written objections to Congress before and after the passage of the Patriot Act. My comments are in brackets [].

The Patriot Act does the following (I'm putting the immigration stuff at the bottom because that least affects most of the people who will be reading this):

* [It keeps judges out the process and lets cops do what they want (cops meaning FBI, CIA, etc.)] It minimizes judicial supervision of telephone and Internet surveillance by law enforcement authorities in anti-terrorism investigations and in routine criminal investigations unrelated to terrorism. [Unrelated to terrorism ? that means anything. How long do you think before that includes political dissent? Oops, too late, that's already happened.]

* It expands the ability of the government to conduct secret searches ? again in anti-terrorism investigations and in routine criminal investigations unrelated to terrorism. [Unrelated to terrorism ? that means anything they want it to mean. If we don't agree with Nazi Republican ideas, they can now arrest us.]

* It gives the Attorney General and the Secretary of State the power to designate domestic groups as terrorist organizations and block any non-citizen who belongs to them from entering the country. Under this provision the payment of membership dues is a deportable offense. [That means, among other things, that Bush and Ashcroft can decide Greenpeace and Ralph Nader are terrorists, and under this law, it can put them in jail.]

* It grants the FBI broad access to sensitive medical, financial, mental health, and educational records about individuals without having to show evidence of a crime and without a court order. [It means they can do what they want for no good reason, except to persecute and imprison people with humanistic, noncorporate rip-off views.]

* It could lead to large-scale investigations of American citizens for "intelligence" purposes and use of intelligence authorities to by-pass probable cause requirements in criminal cases. [Bye bye peace movement. You're all going to jail; me too.]

* It puts the CIA and other intelligence agencies back in the business of spying on Americans by giving the Director of Central Intelligence the authority to identify priority targets for intelligence surveillance in the United States. [This is what America worked so hard for all those years to eliminate.]

* It allows searches of highly personal financial records without notice and without judicial review based on a very low standard that does not require probable cause of a crime or even relevancy to an ongoing terrorism investigation. [They can do any of this stuff without any reason whatsoever. This is the kind of freedom these fascists always wanted ? freedom to put everyone who disagrees with them in jail.]

* It creates a broad new definition of "domestic terrorism" that could sweep in people who engage in acts of political protest and subject them to wiretapping and enhanced penalties. [This means they can jail anyone who disagrees with them, and keep them in jail for life without a trial.]

On immigration specifically, the new law permits the detention of non-citizens facing deportation based merely on the Attorney General's certification that he has "reasonable grounds to believe" the non-citizen endangers national security. While immigration or criminal charges must be filed within seven days, these charges need not have anything to do with terrorism, but can be minor visa violations of the kind that normally would not result in detention at all. Non-citizens ordered removed on visa violations could be indefinitely detained if they are stateless, their country of origin refuses to accept them, or they are granted relief from deportation because they would be tortured if they were returned to their country of origin.

It permits the Attorney General to indefinitely incarcerate or detain non-citizens based on mere suspicion, and to deny readmission to the United States of non-citizens (including lawful permanent residents) for engaging in speech protected by the First Amendment. [Or, what used to be the First Amendment. Now, it doesn't exist.]

Let me just take a bit more of your valuable time to make a couple of points crystal clear, again using material from the ACLU's objections to passage of the Patriot Act.

Wiretapping and Intelligence Surveillance

The wiretapping and intelligence provisions in the USA Patriot Act sound two themes: they minimize the role of a judge in ensuring that law enforcement wiretapping is conducted legally and with proper justification, and they permit use of intelligence investigative authority to by-pass normal criminal procedures that protect privacy. Specifically:

1. The USA Patriot Act allows the government to use its intelligence gathering power to circumvent the standard that must be met for criminal wiretaps. Currently FISA surveillance, which does not contain many of the same checks and balances that govern wiretaps for criminal purposes, can be used only when foreign intelligence gathering is the primary purpose. The new law allows use of FISA surveillance authority even if the primary purpose were a criminal investigation. Intelligence surveillance merely needs to be only a "significant" purpose. This provision authorizes unconstitutional physical searches and wiretaps: though it is searching primarily for evidence of crime, law enforcement conducts a search without probable cause of crime.

2. The USA Patriot Act extends a very low threshold of proof for access to Internet communications that are far more revealing than numbers dialed on a phone. Under current law, a law enforcement agent can get a pen register or trap and trace order requiring the telephone company to reveal the numbers dialed to and from a particular phone. To get such an order, law enforcement must simply certify to a judge ? who must grant the order ? that the information to be obtained is "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." This is a very low level of proof, far less than probable cause. This provision apparently applies to law enforcement efforts to determine what websites a person had visited, which is like giving law enforcement the power ? based only on its own certification ? to require the librarian to report on the books you had perused while visiting the public library. This provision extends a low standard of proof ? far less than probable cause ? to actual "content" information.

3. In allowing for "nationwide service" of pen register and trap and trace orders, the law further marginalizes the role of the judiciary. It authorizes what would be the equivalent of a blank warrant in the physical world: the court issues the order, and the law enforcement agent fills in the places to be searched. This is not consistent with the important Fourth Amendment privacy protection of requiring that warrants specify the place to be searched. Under this legislation, a judge is unable to meaningfully monitor the extent to which her order was being used to access information about Internet communications.

4. The Act also grants the FBI broad access in "intelligence" investigations to records about a person maintained by a business. The FBI need only certify to a court that it is conducting an intelligence investigation and that the records it seeks may be relevant. With this new power, the FBI can force a business to turn over a person's educational, medical, financial, mental health and travel records based on a very low standard of proof and without meaningful judicial oversight.

The ACLU noted that the FBI already had broad authority to monitor telephone and Internet communications. Most of the changes apply not just to surveillance of terrorists, but instead to all surveillance in the United States. [All surveillance. The WTO geeks will love this one. Now we can be just like China.]

Law enforcement authorities -- even when they are required to obtain court orders - have great leeway under current law to investigate suspects in terrorist attacks. Current law already provided, for example, that wiretaps can be obtained for the crimes involved in terrorist attacks, including destruction of aircraft and aircraft piracy.

The FBI also already had authority to intercept these communications without showing probable cause of crime for "intelligence" purposes under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. In fact, FISA wiretaps now exceed wiretapping for all domestic criminal investigations. The standards for obtaining a FISA wiretap are lower than the standards for obtaining a criminal wiretap.

Criminal Justice

The law dramatically expands the use of secret searches. Normally, a person is notified when law enforcement conducts a search. In some cases regarding searches for electronic information, law enforcement authorities can get court permission to delay notification of a search. The USA Patriot Act extends the authority of the government to request "secret searches" to every criminal case. This vast expansion of power goes far beyond anything necessary to conduct terrorism investigations.

The Act also allows for the broad sharing of sensitive information in criminal cases with intelligence agencies, including the CIA, the NSA, the INS and the Secret Service. It permits sharing of sensitive grand jury and wiretap information without judicial review or any safeguards regarding the future use or dissemination of such information.

These information sharing authorizations and mandates effectively put the CIA back in the business of spying on Americans: Once the CIA makes clear the kind of information it seeks, law enforcement agencies can use tools like wiretaps and intelligence searches to provide data to the CIA. In fact, the law specifically gives the Director of Central Intelligence - who heads the CIA -- the power to identify domestic intelligence requirements.

The law also creates a new crime of "domestic terrorism." The new offense threatens to transform protesters into terrorists if they engage in conduct that "involves acts dangerous to human life." Members of Operation Rescue, the Environmental Liberation Front and Greenpeace, for example, have all engaged in activities that could subject them to prosecution as terrorists. Then, under this law, the dominos begin to fall. Those who provide lodging or other assistance to these "domestic terrorists" could have their homes wiretapped and could be prosecuted.

[If you have any doubt that these are the trappings of a police state, then you need to go back to elementary school and read about the Constitution, which we no longer have.]

[Fox News Channel reports tonight that 90% of the American people are really happy with what Bush has done. I think somebody wrote this all in a book once, that when a free people gave away their freedom, they did it happily and with much fanfare.]

Perhaps with the Bush people in the White House, we might want to set the world on auto-repeat:

(For info and discussion purposes only)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/glabb2.html

A Presidential Press Conference in 2010

by Jack Glaab

FoxNews Flash............

Following is transcript of President Bush's news conference of Monday Jan 2, 2010.

Pres Bush: Good Morning, many things have happened over the weekend. I have to speak fast so you will have to listen fast. (fawning laughter from assembled news and cameramen......)

As we have long feared the evil doers have struck again. This weekend shadowy cowards set fire to the Parliament building of our allies in Ickybeckystan killing our proud Ickybecky allies in the holocaust. The men standing beside me now are Ickybeck firefighters who should be fighting the fire at the Parliament building but have consented to standing with me now. Man, I'm so proud of these guys....

First reports suggest the evil radical extremist group the WJAGBIIG(We Hate Anything Good Because it is Good) who you all know are the heirs of Bin Laden's evil horde which we exterminated just this week after an intense nine year war. There are tens or perhaps hundreds of these indescribably dangerous messengers of death scattered throughout all the nations of the Earth, part of the WJAGBIIG Terror Network.

We have also learned that the WJAGBIIG has planned to commit the same heinous crimes against the American people in the form of a firebombing campaign on the remaining Federal buildings or American families in their homes. Imagine...... setting American women and children on fire in their living rooms...

Since the horrible and suspicious fire which destroyed our Capitol building and forced the cancellation of the Presidential election of 2008 our Congress and Senate have been working from their homes under the careful guard of our proud men and women in uniform. I have arranged food and other necessary items for survival be delivered to them by our armed forces.The Congresspersons have been passing their notes to me directly and secretly through our proud servicemen and women. With this method our loyal Congress and Senate persons need no longer face the real risk of extermination by terrorists. They have expressed their gratitude for your support of my policies.

With the advice and consent of Congress and Senate, Tony Blair of Great Britain, and Vlad Putin I am announcing the following measures to combat the ongoing terrorist threats against goodness in our country and around the world by the evil-doers.

First:I am dispatching our Secretary of State to Ickybeckystan to offer our full support in bringing the WJAGBIIG to justice no matter how many decades it may take. SecState will be accompanied by the Secretary of the Treasury to convince them of our enduring commitment to their government's stability and the safety of the Icky peoples. This is the first action in our new war to be named Operation Sinister Misnomer.

Second: We have already dispatched the FBI to Ickbeckystan to direct the investigation of the WJAGBIIG by the Icky law enforcement and give them every incentive to gather some evidence which will prove the guilt of the WJAGBIIG. I have dispatched the Assistant SecState and the Assistant SecTreasury to all the capitols of the world to present the evidence we will certainly find proving the guilt of the WJAGBIIG and guaranteeing the approval of the New Coalition governments for Operation Sinister Misnomer.

Third:As we have seen so many times in the past the guilty terrorists immediately blend into the local civilian population and become impossible to find and prosecute.So, in ten days we will begin the carpet bombing of the entire country of Ickbeckystan to flush out the guilty and bring them to justice. To show our humanitarian good wishes to the oppressed peoples of Ickybeckstan we will alternate bombing runs with food runs where, as you know, we drop 55 gallon drums of food over the all too predictable refugee camps of panicky Ickys attempting to escape the WJAGBIIG terror. We are announcing the bombing ten days in advance to give the WJAGBIIG every opportunity to surrender and save their countrymen the horror of the bombing. The WJAGBIIG have punished their countrymen for too long. This kind of naked cruelty will not stand. Let's be clear on this point... WJAGBIIG is Bad, USA is good.

I have been in contact with the military rulers of Khorruptishstan who guarantee the WJAGBIIG will not be permitted to cross their border. Woe be to any WJAGBIIG fighters who might sneak across the other three borders......in the next ten days.......

As part of our humanitarian campaign I will order the construction of replacement schools and hospitals and factories and government buildings and waste treatment plants and electric plants and dams and airports and roads and supermarkets and gas stations as soon as the bombing stops, possibly within the next ten years. To help rebuild their economy I will order the construction of a new oil pipeline to jumpstart their economy. This economic stimulus pipeline will connect with the new pipeline which traverses Afghanistan and brings much needed revenue into the new Afghani peoples' government.

As part of the nation building plan I will construct a chain link fence with concertina wire facing outward around the entire country to keep any Austrian economists and Classical Liberals from entering the country to confuse the Ickys. I want the Ickybecky peoples to have the same government and economic system Americans enjoy. I am resolute on this point.

Fourth: Having found incriminating documents in their hiding places we know the WJAGBIIG intend to strike at families here in America at any moment. We also know they started their infamous Parliament fire with gasoline and traveled freely about their country in advance of the horrible Parliament fire. We cannot allow this to happen in America. So in order to guarantee the safety of all Americans I have ordered a two dollar a gallon tax on gasoline and have restricted all travel without showing cause to the responsible government representative in your neighborhood. Travel to work, Internal Revenue Offices, and gas stations will be considered good reasons for movement during the coming expected terror. These precautions and others to be announced soon by the Domestic Security Chiefs and the Joint Chiefs are to protect good Americans from evil Ickybecky WJAGBIIG terrorists disguising themselves as American workers and taxpayers while going about their evil deeds. Under no circumstances will we kneel before the evil doers, we will remain the free-est people on Earth by God's good graces. Laura and I hope you will join us in going to the House of Worship of your choice this Sunday to thank God for America's greatness and for all our freedoms. After all, if God is with me, who can be against me?

Fifth: As we have seen in the past insane persons have taken the side of evil doers and condemned the righteous Federal government of the United States for its' foreign and domestic policies. I take these horrid assertions personally and seriously and have therefore signed into law the AntiAmerican Evil Terror Enabler Act which authorizes the quick arrest by Navy Seals, trial, and punishment of any person anywhere in the world who would take the side of evil to resist the will of America in the war on terror. Each member of Congress and the Senate will receive his copy of the Act by military courrier before sunset for his perusal or consent. My staff and I believe this is the most expedient method of guaranteeing the free speech tradition of our proud nation while enabling the Military Tribunals established in my first term to transcend the cumbersome sovereignty phantom in prosecutions of insane persons who would take the side of evil-doing terrorists.

Sixth:Because our armed forces have been spread so thin, now in 91 countries around the globe installing good governments and banking systems for the oppressed peoples, I have arranged for the New Coalition to assemble a Good Will Force of 350,000 Peacekeepers to loan America during the imminent wave of WJAGBIIG attacks on our freedom. With newly Federalized translators and the Peacekeepers on every American street I am fully confident we will have taken every prudent measure to protect the American people from the evil doers and indiginous crime as well. Perhaps you will consider quartering a Good Will Peacekeeper in your home.

Seventh and last: To combat the WJAGBIIG Terror Network I will order the New York Stock Exchange to immedialtely seize and freeze all the assets of evil persons and consign their assets into trust for the safe keeping of the American people or perhaps to give to the Icky children after Operation Sinister Misnomer has fulfilled its' promise.

That is all I have for you now.

Thank you for not asking any questions, a copy of this briefing has been forwarded to your newspapers and networks, thank you for your good work.

I want to thank my staff for making this all happen in the 18 short hours since the Ickybecky Holocaust, you men and women have done miraculous work and make the American people proud.

I want to close by thanking the American people for their support through the first 9 years of war on terror and let you know I am considering rescheduling the Presidential elections just as soon as it is safe to do so. Until then, God Bless America and the American people. Now as I have asked you before - remain calm, stay in your homes, go about your business, get your travel papers, don't allow the terrorists to change your lives.

Be strong, for Amerika.

December 26, 2001

"Be strong, for Amerika."


Perhaps it is now time, post-9/11, to pack thy belongings and move elsewhere, Mr. Patton.

May I suggest Siberia, perhaps? Or maybe Peru offers the kind of 'freedom and liberty' thou seekest? Nice climate too. :smile:

On 2001-12-26 09:06, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

"Be strong, for Amerika."

Perhaps it is now time, post-9/11, to pack thy belongings and move elsewhere, Mr. Patton.

May I suggest Siberia, perhaps? Or maybe Peru offers the kind of 'freedom and liberty' thou seekest? Nice climate too. :smile:

Marc, I am afraid that technology is now such that there is no longer any escape. The world will be under one authority sooner rather than later and every move of all but a handful of individuals worldwide will be recorded electronically, ostensibly for our own "safety" (Hehehehe). No one shall escape the all-seeing eye of Big Brother and thus no one shall be free. Les jeux sont faits. May your chains rest lightly upon you.

"No one shall escape the all-seeing eye of Big Brother and thus no one shall be free. Les jeux sont faits. May your chains rest lightly upon you."


"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." --Matthew 10:28


But I do worry a little about my kids, though. :smile:

On 2001-12-26 12:01, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

"No one shall escape the all-seeing eye of Big Brother and thus no one shall be free. Les jeux sont faits. May your chains rest lightly upon you."


"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." --Matthew 10:28


But I do worry a little about my kids, though. :smile:

"The tyrant really wants your soul - he speaks solicitously of "raising your consciousness" - but you don't have to yield it to him. That's the one private property he can't take away from you."

Joseph Sobran

On 2001-12-26 11:45, Stonewall Patton wrote:
I am afraid that technology is now such that there is no longer any escape. The world will be under one authority sooner rather than later...

"On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?" Gospel of Thomas 11

"I am afraid that technology..." Don't be afraid Stonewall. When you do, the bully only becomes stronger and your chains only grasp your heart tighter.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dave'71 on 2001-12-26 16:12 ]</font>

I believe the 911 attacks are the beginning of the fourth turning. Even here in the liberal college town I live in there are signs of patriotism everywhere. People want to defend their own way of life.

stonewall,

well, new zealand is a nice alternative to america. so are many places in central and south america... panama, ecuador, nicaragua (with the most beautiful and least expensive beaches in the world today). if money is no object there is the principality of andorra in the pyrenees mountains between france and spain. or campione d'italia, a small tax haven on the shores of lake lugano between switzerland and italy. but those are just a few possibilities. there are still many more.

i would not worry too much about "big brother". it is the very technology that makes "big brother" possible that also insures its own demise. and there are still lots of ways to hide, and beautiful places to hide in, if you want, even in this day and age.

[quote]On 2001-12-26 16:09, Dave'71 wrote:

"I am afraid that technology..."

Don't be afraid Stonewall. When you do, the bully only becomes stronger and your chains only grasp your heart tighter.

That was a reflexive and poor choice of words, Dave. I am not afraid and and I refuse to be. My exploration of the cosmos has led me to faith and that will sustain me when everything else on earth has failed. Again:

"The tyrant really wants your soul - he speaks solicitously of "raising your consciousness" - but you don't have to yield it to him. That's the one private property he can't take away from you."

-- Joseph Sobran

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2001-12-26 23:43 ]</font>

On 2001-12-26 19:35, enjolras wrote:
stonewall,

i would not worry too much about "big brother". it is the very technology that makes "big brother" possible that also insures its own demise.

How so?

On 2001-12-26 22:44, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2001-12-26 19:35, enjolras wrote:
stonewall,

i would not worry too much about "big brother". it is the very technology that makes "big brother" possible that also insures its own demise.

How so?

big, intrusive, all encompassing government is a product of "macro" technology. it still has enough power to take advantage of the new "micro" technology, but it cannot control it. eventually these micro technologies will become so small, compartmentalized and diverse that no government anywhere, no matter how powerful it thinks it is, will ever be able to control it. it is this rapid miniaturization and individualization of technology that will one day make governments virtually obsolete.

although, when the day comes when each individual is self sufficient enough to be a government or state unto themselves, will it be a more peaceful society or a more violent one? human history would suggest the latter unless there are massive changes in human nature over the next few decades.

On 2001-12-26 22:44, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2001-12-26 19:35, enjolras wrote:
stonewall,

i would not worry too much about "big brother". it is the very technology that makes "big brother" possible that also insures its own demise.

How so?

...it is this rapid miniaturization and individualization of technology that will one day make governments virtually obsolete.

I agree with enjolras that ...it is the very technology that makes "big brother" possible that also insures its own demise but for entirely different reasons. Simply put, it's all about thresholds, carrying capacity, and integrated-system inflexibility.

Technology is innately rigid and inflexible. Nature, on the other hand, is innately flexible and adaptive. There will be a threshold beyond which technology cannot become more macro or more micro, because the environmental stability required to sustain that level of rigidity cannot be met. Tiny environmental/climatic fluctuations will crack the foundations of the technological infrastructure, and in time, render it non-functional.

The relationship is as follows:
The more integrated technology becomes the more inflexible it becomes to change. Therefore, the more susceptible it is to cultural, environmental, and climatic disruptions (in the micro and macro).

Nature has its limits.

Mark writes...

Perhaps it is now time, post-9/11, to pack thy belongings and move elsewhere, Mr. Patton.

May I suggest Siberia, perhaps? Or maybe Peru offers the kind of 'freedom and liberty' thou seekest? Nice climate too.

Hmm. I am of the opinion that the United States Bill of Rights are not unamerican. If one desires civil liberties, one should not be forced to leave the United States. While this thread has focused more on technology than politics, I?ll look back the other way.

The Second Amendment, like other elements of the Bill of Rights, has had many distinctly different meanings over the years. White males have the right to keep and bear arms. The federal government has the power to protect the rights of the recently freed slaves, including their right to keep and bear arms. The federal government has no police powers, thus the recently freed slaves must look to state government for protection of their rights. The right to bear arms protects only members of the militia bearing arms apt to be used while serving the militia, and all fit adult males are members of the militia. The right to bear arms protects only members of the national guard, only while they are on duty, and only arms issued by the government. (The last interpretation ignores the requirement of the states to get federal legislative permission to raise troops. States explicitly do not have the right to raise armies without federal permissions.) Thus, under four of five interpretations, I have a right to bear arms, but under the Victorian interpretation I must turn to the State of Massachusetts to protect it.

It is not that the Constitution was that poorly written, but judges nominated by politicians, approved by politicians, make political decisions. The doctrine of a living constitution, of putting prudential concerns ahead of rule of law, of changing the membership of the Supreme Court rather than changing the Constitution, is problematic. It is said that the United Kingdom has no written constitution, but only unwritten traditions, while the United States has a written system. This is true to the extent that the judicial rewrites of the Constitution are at least written down.

What might the major functions of government be? Protect the lives, rights and property of the people from threats internal and external. Create a favorable economic environment. Alas, all political systems to date have come to be dominated by an elite minority. This might be a hereditary nobility, the Communist Party, or wealthy capitalists. Regardless, a large part of the wealth and political power ends up in the hands of a few. The favorable economic environment ends up favorable to the few. Rather than striving to protect the rights of the people, the rights of conscience are often seen as an impediment to the government?s power, the power of the elite few. Recent administrations have placed the Bill of Rights under siege. The traditional oath requiring politicians to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution is broken perpetually. Democrats have it against the Second. Republicans tend more to attack privacy. Both strive to increase the power of the government at the expense of the rights of the people.

Given recent terrorist events, some trade off of privacy for security are prudent to necessary. However, precedents set now are apt to become perpetual. Government is still based on the consent of the governed. At the moment, we are collectively scared enough to let the Bill of Rights dissolve.

In order to maintain my right to travel, specifically on airlines, I am willing to yield my right to privacy, to allow what might be considered an unreasonable search. This is arguably unconstitutional, but the Founding Fathers did not anticipate aircraft or shoe bombs. However, the right to privacy should not be flushed entirely. Recent laws allow search without judicial review establishing probable cause. Such laws are unconstitutional. A president that signs and employs such laws is not taking his oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution seriously. Arguably, the terrorist actions are being used as an excuse to pervert the Constitution. I?d get mad about this, save it is perverted already.

Originally, the Bill of Rights was perceived as a limit on the powers of the government. The rights of the people trump the powers of government. Over the centuries, the doctrine has shifted such that the government has seized the power to violate individual rights if it can argue it is protecting many. This argument leads to soft fuzzy lines which keep moving. When Waco, Ruby Ridge and the OKC bombing was a major spiral of violence, I anticipated a red / blue conflict to establish limits on the powers of government. It doesn?t seem to be happening. The BATF and FBI were reigned in. The militias rejected McVeigh?s path of violence. Events abroad have come to dominate internal human rights issues. Still, we should not neglect the Bill of Rights. Dubya?s policy seems to be that only US citizens have rights, only when they are on US soil, and even then the objective ought to be to increase government power whenever possible at the expense of individual rights.

If there is a clear and present danger present, I am willing to yield rights. When the federal government is shifting prisoners from state to state explicitly to confuse court jurisdiction, this is a conspiracy to break the law, a conspiracy to violate the Constitution. Do we impeach first and call the constitutional convention later, or call the convention first?

Let's impeach first.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nd boom '59 on 2001-12-27 14:11 ]</font>

This is late 3T with gyrations of T4T. The terrorist attack on the WTC is a definate catalyst. Just as John Browns Raid was a terrorist attack in 1859 the attack 911 foretells of a greater problem.
GBII though a boomer was brought to power more by the Silent and last of the GI gen.than by his own Boomer and Xgen., which tended not to participate in the past election.GBII walks and talks much like GBI , a true 3T. He has surrounded himself with the silent that were of comfort to GBI. Truly a boomer with his own views of the future and improving it. He still walks in the shadow of the last grear generation trying to win approval by winning the war his father never finished.
This new war on terrorism has its roots the Gulf War,the Soviet Unions War in Afghanistan, and failed actions in Somalia and Bosnia.These are all failed failed foriegn policies on the part of the USA under silent advise, A definate 3T.
Unfortunately the under current of the 911 attcks may not be the war on terrorism or failed foriegn policy but the outright attack on the constitution.
GBII has taken away personal liberties in four months under the need for National Security and has hidden the actions of the president from the public using this guise.When the war is over we will never return to the normalicy prior to 911. Will the Goverment return the liberties granted to the people back to the people? Then T4T may begin its roots not OBL but GBII.

Technology is innately rigid and inflexible. Nature, on the other hand, is innately flexible and adaptive. There will be a threshold beyond which technology cannot become more macro or more micro, because the environmental stability required to sustain that level of rigidity cannot be met. Tiny environmental/climatic fluctuations will crack the foundations of the technological infrastructure, and in time, render it non-functional.

Malvina Reynolds put it even better: "...the grasss, that grows through cement. It's green and it's tender and it's easily bent....but the grass is living and the stone is dead..." I think you'll find it in RISE UP SINGING

Pat Mathews writes...

Technology is innately rigid and inflexible. Nature, on the other hand, is innately flexible and adaptive. There will be a threshold beyond which technology cannot become more macro or more micro, because the environmental stability required to sustain that level of rigidity cannot be met. Tiny environmental/climatic fluctuations will crack the foundations of the technological infrastructure, and in time, render it non-functional.

Malvina Reynolds put it even better: "...the grasss, that grows through cement. It's green and it's tender and it's easily bent....but the grass is living and the stone is dead..." I think you'll find it in RISE UP SINGING

I don?t entirely disagree. There is truth to this. However, the opposite is also true in a yin / yang sense. Organic species take generations to evolve on a trial and error basis. Technology is developing and adjusting at a much faster rate. My father spent most of his life installing two generations of telephone switching equipment. Both have been junked as obsolete. Technology is evolving, growing and changing very much faster than organic processes.

We are also just beginning to be able to design life forms, to splice DNA. Before the crisis is over, the flexibility of living systems and the rate of advance of technology will be merged. The distinction between technology and life is about to be erased.

No Boom writes...

This new war on terrorism has its roots the Gulf War,the Soviet Unions War in Afghanistan, and failed actions in Somalia and Bosnia.These are all failed failed foriegn policies on the part of the USA under silent advise, A definate 3T. Unfortunately the under current of the 911 attcks may not be the war on terrorism or failed foriegn policy but the outright attack on the constitution.

Yes and no. There is a need to develop a post Cold War foreign policy. The old Republican position is to use force to ?protect US vital interests? (enhance profits of US corporations contributing to Republican campaign finance funds) while avoiding nation building (keeping rich countries rich, and poor nations poor). Dubya is drifting towards nation building. He is beginning to see that a world at peace would enhance profits of US corporations.

It is becoming clearer that poverty breeds violence, terror, and a hatred of rich nations. Preaching human rights while supporting Arab regimes which suppress human rights contributes to the hatred. Supporting oil royalty regimes which do not share their wealth with their people contributes to the hatred. Supporting Israel, perceived of as the latest example of colonial imperialism, of Europeans taking land by force from a native people, also contributes to the hatred. Differences in language, culture and religion contribute to the hatred.

If we were put at economic disadvantage, if our land were being taken, if our people were being killed by an outside occupying power, if our human rights were being denied, the use of force would be considered understandable and justified. What is a just war? Was is an act of war? What is a crime against humanity? The US can attempt to redefine these with each conflict, to justify self serving policies with situational ethics, but we should not expect to fool all of the people, all of the time. We might fool ourselves. We will not fool those we are oppressing. US meddling in the Middle East has created anger. In an age of weapons of mass destruction, it might be advisable to change US policy to end the anger rather than suppress by force those whose anger has driven them to the use of force. Dubya rejects this. His insistence that US policy shall not be changed in response to terrorist activities is problematic.

Still, the policy of a coalition against terror combined with nation building to relieve the poverty which breeds terror is a step in the right direction. The problem is in scale and degree. Dubya and his coalition wish to continue favorable relationships with the oil royalty, wish to continue policies leading to the extreme unbalance of wealth and human rights between Middle East and West. Dubya is attempting the minimum possible amount of nation building in Afghanistan rather than attempting global scale nation building wherever poverty and oppression might lead to hatred and violence. He is reluctantly being forced to make minimal changes rather than embracing radical change. This doesn?t mean he isn?t moving in the right direction. It does mean his efforts are not likely to be sufficient long term.

And yes, I too am concerned about his attack on human rights at home.

Bob Butler writes:
We are also just beginning to be able to design life forms, to splice DNA. Before the crisis is over, the flexibility of living systems and the rate of advance of technology will be merged. The distinction between technology and life is about to be erased.

Without Man's ingenuity, technology cannot evolve. Its adaptability is dependent on Man's creativity. Man's self-centered creativity along any tangent is limited. At some point, the horizon is breached and fantasy ensues. Man's technological creativity/innovativeness is (and has been for a while) leaving reality along a tangent-of-no-return.

Respectively, two of the great lies of modern thought are:

1) There are no limits,
2) Man's constructions can be self-adaptive.

On 2001-12-28 09:40, Dave'71 wrote:

Without Man's ingenuity, technology cannot evolve. Its adaptability is dependent on Man's creativity.

True.

Man's self-centered creativity along any tangent is limited. At some point, the horizon is breached and fantasy ensues. Man's technological creativity/innovativeness is (and has been for a while) leaving reality along a tangent-of-no-return.

The individual has limits on creativity, but the group has almost unlimited creative potential.

We always do breach the horizon, but eventually, we always catch up to is, and push the horizon even farther down.

We have a tendency to always think that we are at the top of technological advance, but we haven't. We are not even close.

Everytime we leave the tangent, we are only setting standards of the way things can be. Science fiction has become a great driver of technological progress. Recently, science fiction novels have started to write about nanotechnology. However, we get closer to this reality daily.

We are entering the age of networked computers. Even with the dotcom shakeout, we are not close to being finished. We still have far to go, and we are still moving ahead.

We are entering the age of biotechnology. The advances in the next 20 years will be nothing but miraculous. With research done on stem cells alone, we will live much more healthy lives. In the next 20 years, molecular biotechnology will bring cures to many diseases. By 2020, most forms of cancer should be curable.

We will be entering an age in which energy will be cheap, reliable, clean, and limitless. Driven by the solar/hydrogen economy, we will enter a new period of broken down limits.

With the industrialization of space, we will be able to create new medicines and materials in the zero-G. We also will have vast amounts of resources at our disposal, and a new place to live.

By mid-century, we will have nanotechnology. When this happens, we will be at a state when technology truly starts seeming like magic.

And even there, we still have a lot more to go, a lot new technologies to master, and concepts to bring to light.

Respectively, two of the great lies of modern thought are:

1) There are no limits,
2) Man's constructions can be self-adaptive.

I totally agree with the two above statements. I am of the belief that if we can conceive it, then we have to ability to do it. Today, we are entering the realm of history in which science fiction becomes reality.

People have a tendency to underestimate human beings. Our ability to evolve, culturally, technologically, and intellectuallly, is far greater than most people think. The advances that will come in the next 20 years will astound all of us. Sure, our technological ability is limited by how creative we are, but human creativity is not something that has limits. Besides, we proved the officer of the Patent office wh in 1899 said, "Everything that can be invented has been invented." How he has been proven wrong.

I fully expect that humans will continue to advances themselves beyond what they thought was possible.

As for being self-adaptive, our creations are only adaptive because we are adaptive.

In fact, read this article I have written: http://www.millennials.com/ltm/reed-tech.html

Respectively, two of the great lies of modern thought are:

1) There are no limits,
2) Man's constructions can be self-adaptive.

Madscientist wrote:
I totally agree with the two above statements. I am of the belief that if we can conceive it, then we have to ability to do it. Today, we are entering the realm of history in which science fiction becomes reality.

If dream-world ever becomes hard reality, which it may, we may enter the realm of history in which science fiction becomes reality. But don't count on that world to be limitless, because even personal dreams have limits. There is only one dream that has no limits: that is the dream of the Father.

Madscientist might respond "If you build it, they will come," but remember, "they" might revolt when they get here.

To return this tangent back to the original question, Is the 911 Attack Triggering A Fourth Turning?: 911 was partly due to the fact that the "laws" necessary to allow the existence of highly-integrated technology compromise various ways of life that are more closely rooted to the earth and to various perceptions of what God is. Not everyone will become servants of technology. The more integrated technology becomes, an essential component to its advancement, the more easily it will be disturbed by challenging ideologies. "Terrorism" inflicted upon the technological infrastructure will be easier to perform and more damaging as technology becomes more advanced; which is just one more reason why technology has its limits.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dave'71 on 2001-12-28 12:52 ]</font>