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Thread: Is the 911 Attack Triggering A Fourth Turning? - Page 76







Post#1876 at 01-29-2002 06:59 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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01-29-2002, 06:59 AM #1876
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
3,857

This is long but I will post the whole thing (its two parts) since the site often exceeds its daily bandwidth allowance. Some of this is highly disturbing. Of course how much of it is accurate? Unfortunately, I suspect that at least a good bit of it is reasonably accurate.

BTW, note the author's contention that the military leaked the "torture" photos in order to reveal what the CIA is doing which even appalls them (the military). If this is true, thank God for you guys in uniform. It is good to know that the military is not yet completely infiltrated by this other more "secretive" and brutal element.

(For info and discussion purposes)

http://www.geocities.com/torturevictims/cuba.html

Rift Between US Government and US Special Forces
Rumsfeld orders "British" torture for Afghan prisoners of war

Copyright Joe Vialls, 19 January 2002
May be reproduced unedited in the public interest

Did you ever wonder who provided you with the startling video of American John Walker being tortured by CIA operative Mike Spann, or those sickening pictures of hooded, chained, and drugged prisoners being herded onto American military aircraft at Kandahar Airport? Extraordinary though it may seem, these and other horrific images were deliberately leaked to you by members of US Special Forces, who had direct control of the areas where the images were produced. Considerably concerned by the actions of local CIA operatives, and certain illegal orders from Washington, members of Special Forces responded by leaking highly sensitive information to the public.

Do not misunderstand me. American and other western Special Forces are not a crowd of harp-playing angels determined to protect the "human rights" of any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Most members of Special Forces are seriously heavy duty soldiers who go about their business loaded for bear, and God help anyone who gets in their way. Nor are Special Forces averse to knocking captured members of the enemy around on the battlefield, if they believe that the enemy in question has tactical information that might reduce risks to their own unit. Many years ago I was stupid enough to volunteer for a "practice interrogation" at the hands of these folk; a mistake I remember vividly to this day because the details are etched in my memory.

The main point to note is that although painful, my "practice interrogation" was swift and soon over. In a tactical battlefield situation, a soldier or airman is only reckoned to have information relevant for about 48 hours after capture, because grass roots military folk are never privy to long term strategic planning. Thus if a battlefield prisoner hasn't spilled the beans inside 48 hours, chances are there are no useful beans left to spill. At that stage, Special Forces and other military units ship the captured enemy off to a normal prisoner-of-war facility. Put simply, soldiers are not "into" extended sensory deprivation, and other obscene forms of torture favored by psychiatrists and psychologists working for most of the intelligence agencies and security services. Details of this torture and its effects will be provided later in the report, but first we need to examine the ways in which the American military in faraway Afghanistan, alerted the American public at home by using members of the media as unwitting tools.

Early on in the "War on Terror", four hundred Taliban prisoners were transported by warlords to a fort outside Mazar-e Sharif in northern Afghanistan. The only cameras and long-range shotgun microphones present were in the hands of US Special Forces, who used them to film and catch the sound of CIA operative Mike Spann torturing "American Taliban" John Walker. Not long after that, someone chucked the so-called Taliban a few grenades which they used to stage a revolt against their captors, who at that time were gleefully pouring oil on the Taliban prisoners and lighting it with matches. A little later, the CIA's Mike Spann was reportedly beaten to death, and the survivors of the revolt were shipped off to another prison camp.

Under normal circumstances the footage and sound captured by Special Forces would be considered as top secret material, for Pentagon eyes only, especially as this footage showed the CIA torturing a prisoner. But these were not normal circumstances. A member of the CIA was torturing an American citizen in the presence of "allied" warlords, the latter directly responsible for supplying seventy percent of America's heroin until 1995 (UN Estimate). So instead of sending the footage off in a diplomatic pouch to the Pentagon, Special Forces "lost it" in the immediate vicinity of the Kabul media pack. If action had not been taken when it was, there is a high probability John Walker would not have survived his "interrogation" by Mike Spann, and without the critical video footage you would never have known Walker ever existed.

Next up we have the equally astonishing footage of so-called Al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners being led hooded, chained, and medically sedated, to an American C17 transport aircraft parked at Kandahar Airport at the dead of night. It was this footage in particular that caused such a huge fuss by human rights groups all over the world. This is not surprising, because without this video footage, few people would believe that Americans from the "Land of the Free" would indulge themselves in such barbaric behavior. So, were members of Special Forces responsible for taking this footage as well? No they were not, but Special Forces did have complete control of Kandahar Airport, meaning that they and only they controlled the flow of people in and out of the Airport proper. In this particular case, Special Forces "gave the nod" to the media, telling them what time to arrive, and where to point their cameras in order to get the best shots of the prisoners.

This activity took place completely outside the US Government chain of command, and it was a while before Washington found out what had happened. Then US Government officials went ballistic. Unable to retrieve the footage from the various news organizations, officers nominated personally by Donald Rumsfeld frantically asked members of the media pack to sign an "undertaking" that they would not show the footage until they received permission. Too late! By then some of the footage had been transmitted by satellite, and had already been shown to a startled and outraged western public on international television.

The Defense Secretary, officials, psychiatrists, and psychologists in Washington had several valid reasons to be alarmed, not least of which was the fact that this footage in isolation proves exactly what sort of torture was, and still is, intended for these prisoners. Military contacts have confirmed that far from being the "very, very dangerous" men claimed by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, most of the prisoners taken to Cuba are low grade fighters and others, i.e. those most likely to "crack" under sustained cruelty, and sign false confessions of the kind needed by Washington to ramp up its flagging "War on Terror". Interrogators have been told the confessions must be ready by September at the latest. Exactly how psychological torture will be used to extract the required confessions is explained further down this page, but first we have to consider why the US Government needs confessions all.

At present the US Government is using inference, innuendo, and outright lies to bolster its ridiculous claim that a bunch of Arab Terrorists were responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001, story here . . There has never been any hard evidence to support this wild and inaccurate claim, so as usual, the US Government is planning one of its more spectacular "Trials by Media" later this year. In the dock on 14 October [shortly after the first anniversary of the World Trade center attack] will be one Zacarius Moussaoui, who was arrested on immigration charges on 17 August 2001, nearly a month before the attacks, and who has now been charged with "conspiracy" in those attacks. The case against Moussaoui is pitifully weak, with no hard or even corroborative evidence that he knew what al Qaeda was, much less that he was part of the alleged organization. In any case, how can a man firmly in US custody at the time of the attacks be a suspect?

In a court nearby will be Richard Colvin Reid, the alleged "Shoe Bomber" on American Airlines Flight 63, said to have tried to light his shoe in flight in order to blow up the aircraft. The US Government is now trying to invent "links" to al Qaeda, the principle claim being that Reid worshipped at the same London Mosque as Moussaoui during late 1998. So what? I visited Westminster Abbey the same year as Queen Elizabeth the Second, but I never met Her Majesty personally, and neither of us are members of the mysterious al Qaeda.

You can see the way this is going, can't you? One creative false link at a time, until we have enough creative false links to finally convince a skeptical American public that the official lie of October 2001, should be accepted as the actual truth in October 2002. But the huge problem facing the US Government is that neither Moussaoui or Reid have actually been seen in the company of Osama Bin Laden, or even in Afghanistan, though we do know the Israelis shipped Reid to Israel for a week aboard one of their very own El Al jets. This total absence of any proof that either man was connected to al Qaeda is where the prisoners kidnapped to Cuba finally come into the picture ? God help them.

Before September is out, the American Federal Prosecution will have signed confessions which "prove" some of the men held in Cuba personally helped to train Moussaoui and Reid in terrorist techniques, with others possibly providing flight instruction, bomb making, and so on. All lies of course, but the US Government doesn't care about that. Think about it people, think about it! What other possible reason can there be for importing these Afghans and Arabs into Cuba, after kidnapping them overseas? If they were the "very, very dangerous" men claimed by Rumsfeld, they would have been left to the tender mercies of the drug-running warlords recently restored to power by the CIA. Believe me when I say that justice would then have been incredibly swift, incredibly terminal, and no drain on the American taxpayer at all.

To discover exactly how the "disappeared" will be made to "confess", we need to go back in history to the seventies, when the British Government made a conscious decision to psychologically torture twelve suspected members of the Irish Republican Army. Remember very carefully here that, like the prisoners in Cuba, those tortured in Ireland had not been convicted of any crime. Indeed, none had even been charged with a crime. Also like the prisoners in Cuba, hoods, restraints and noise all played a significant part. Here are some subjective comments from one of the tortured Irishmen:-

"Plain-clothes men beside us. Four blue bags produced and put over our heads. Short of breath because of bag. Then released from handcuffs which connected one to the others and hands handcuffed in front individually. Then run across field to 'copter. Landed, did not know where. Lorry backed up to 'copter. Taken out and thrown into back of lorry, like a sack of potatoes. Lorry smelt of cow dung. Driven in lorry for about 100 yards. Pulled out of lorry (bag still over head) marched into some sort of building. Stripped naked, examined by doctor. Bag still over head. Put lying on bed and examined. Overalls (I later discovered) put on me, taken into room. Noise like compressed-air engine in room. Very loud, deafening.

"Hands put against wall. Legs spread apart. Head pulled up by bag and backside pushed in. Stayed there for about four hours. Could no longer hold up arms. Fell down. Arms put up again. Hands hammered until circulation restored. This happened continually for twelve or fourteen hours, until I eventually collapsed. Thinking how that Paisley had seized power in some way and that I would be executed or tortured to death. Started to pray very hard. Mouth dried up. Couldn't get moisture in mouth. Pulse taken. Thought of a youngster who had died at six months old, started to pray that God would give me strength that I would not go insane. Fell down several times more. Slapped back up again. This must have gone on for two or three days; I lost track of time. No sleep. No food. Knew I had gone unconscious several times, but did not know for how long. One time I thought, or imagined, I had died?"

Dr. O'Malley was the first medical man to see any of the men who had undergone the SD [sensory deprivation] torture. He saw two of the original twelve men in Crumlin Road jail sixteen days after their ordeal, and one other somewhat later. He estimated that all three had developed a psychosis within the first day of interrogation. "The psychosis consisted of loss of sense of time, perceptual disturbances leading to visual and auditory hallucinations, profound apprehension and depression, and delusional beliefs ? e.g. hearing Paisley [A Protestant Minister] lead an evangelical choir intent on slaughtering Catholics." Of the three men, O'Malley gave as his opinion that one would recover completely, one would possibly recover but the process would be lengthy, and one was in need of urgent psychiatric assistance if he was to make a full recovery. Despite the doctor's recommendations, nothing was done and all were subsequently moved from Crumlin jail to Long Kesh [an internment camp].

In his book "The Guinea Pigs" (1974), author John McGuffin goes a long way towards explaining exactly how this type of psychological torture works. "Sensory deprivation (SD) refers literally to the artificial deprivation of the senses ? auditory, visual, tactile and kinesthetic. In connection with the Northern Ireland 'guineapigs' it meant (1) hooding prisoners prior to their interrogation; (2) constant use of a sound machine which produces white noise', a high pitched hissing, mushy sound; (3) long periods of immobilization, being forced to lean against a wall, legs wide apart with only the fingertips touching the wall; (4) little or no food or drink; and (5) being forced to wear loose overalls, several sizes too big. In addition, (6) prisoners were deprived of sleep for days on end; while not technically SD this accentuates the process.

"There is a purpose behind all these actions. Measures (1), (2), (3) and (5) cause visual, auditory, kinesthetic and tactile deprivation while measures (4) and (6) deprive the brain of oxygen and sugar necessary for normal functioning. In addition, measures (1), (4) and (6) may disturb the normal body metabolism. Hooding causes an imbalance in the ratio of oxygen to carbon dioxide in the air breathed and this causes mental confusion. The wall-standing, which is deliberately made to sound so innocuous by apologists like Sir Edmund Compton is extremely painful ? especially when accompanied by beatings ? and causes, in addition to fatigue and swollen wrists and ankles, poor circulation of the blood which leads to a reduced supply of oxygen and sugar to the brain. The restricted and in some cases almost non-existent diet was also sugar-free (Storr has pointed out that the brain needs three things if it is to function efficiently: sensory stimulation, sugar and oxygen)."

The Irish Government later made a formal complaint to the European Commission for Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights. The Commission found Britain guilty of torture. Where the prisoners in Cuba are concerned, the US Government is already guilty on more than a single count. In 1975 the United Nations defined torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted by or at the instigation of a public official on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or confession, punishing him for an act he has committed, or intimidating him or other persons?Torture constitutes an aggravated and deliberate form of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." The US Government's use of isolation units in Cuba breaks two United Nations Covenants against Torture, and the UN Covenant for the Treatment of Prisoners, both of which the United States has signed.

By now, most readers will appreciate the incredibly awkward position Special Forces placed the US Government in when it allowed the prisoners to be filmed boarding the C17 Transport at Kandahar Airport, and leaked details about the sedatives administered to them. Here was almost a carbon copy of the torture conducted in Northern Ireland: The same hoods, the same restraints, and 30 hours or more of high pitched aircraft noise on the way to Cuba substituting for the "White Noise" used by British security psychiatrists and psychologists.

Though detailed information about the psychological torture in Northern Ireland has largely receded into the back rooms of Irish pubs and remote corners of the Internet, the US Government is very aware that, back in the seventies, the British Government faced an avalanche of adverse publicity. Hated though the IRA was in many quarters, there was no excuse for this shocking use of psychological torture against mere suspects of terrorism ? some of them only teenagers. No doubt in the fullness of time the US Government will face its own avalanche of adverse publicity, which will be richly deserved.

In judging its progress to date where the "War on Terror" is concerned, it seems likely that Washington is listening more to the fawning comments of external supporters in the "International Community" than it is to its own citizens, which in the long term could prove to be a fatal error of judgement. One such fawning external country is Australia, where the Attorney General, Queens Counsel Mr Daryl Williams, has recently made it quite clear that whatever the Americans want to do to their illegal prisoners, that's OK by Australia. With reference to "Australian Taliban" David Hicks, Mr Williams stated:

"You have to be realistic about the nature of the potential threat that the prisoners who have been transferred to Cuba represent ?. they have been trained to be terrorists and to act in accordance with the objectives of al Qaeda. That makes them about as dangerous as a person can be in modern times."

Trained? By whom, when, where, and what are the charges? Apparently in their "Queens Counsel 101" courses, Australian law schools neglect to mention the need for evidence. The prisoners kidnapped and flown under strict sensory deprivation conditions to Cuba, where they are now housed in diminutive cages open to the elements, are not dangerous persons at all. More dangerous by far are politicians of any nation who try to invent fictional "terrorists" in order to further their own political careers or other ambitions, and others who cite the conveniently invented "terrorists" to force additional Draconian controls over ordinary members of the public.

It seems likely that David Hicks will be released into Australian custody sometime during the next few months, in order to be tried on some trumped-up charge around October 2002, the same time as the mammoth "Trial by Media" of Moussaoui and Reid in America. Combined with other trials in countries including Great Britain, the last quarter of 2002 promises to break all records for pure media hype and social engineering.

Regardless of what Australia or other obsequious countries might say or do, now or in the future, where the Afghan prisoners are concerned the US Government is acting specifically "in the name of the American people". Many Americans are of Irish descent, and many took deep offence to British behavior in Northern Ireland. There is no credible reason to believe that American citizens in general will condone Rumsfeld's torture of the Afghans simply because they are "not Irish", nor because they are Muslims rather than Catholics or Protestants.

Perhaps most important of all, the US Government is forcing members of the US military to behave in ways which offend their rigid training and discipline. It is perfectly alright to shoot a man dead in combat if he is shooting at you, and it is perfectly alright to wound a man in combat if he is trying to wound you. On the flip side of the coin, torturing suspects for purely political reasons is not alright under any military code ever written, and it seems likely there will be more "breaches of discipline" if the United States Government is not very careful in the future.


http://www.geocities.com/torturevictim/cuba.html

Rift Between US Government and
US Special Forces - Part 2
"Official" pictures prove prisoners have already been tortured

Joe Vialls, 22 January 2002

If you were a "very, very dangerous" person as claimed by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, would you willingly kneel submissively in front of a bunch of American prison guards you are supposed to hate with a passion? Of course you would not. Instead, you would twist and turn at every possible opportunity, and show every imaginable form of resistance known to man. More than anything else perhaps, you would force yourself to hold your head up high.

Ask yourself: Would Mel Gibson or Bruce Willis just squat there on their knees? No, of course they would not. Would Jean Paul Van Dam take this crap kneeling down? No, of course he would not. So, in these photos first leaked by the US Navy then hurriedly made "official" by the US Government, who or what has caused this unbelievable change in behavior on the part of the prisoners? Fine details in the still photos shown above actually provide a lot of information, but you have to know what to look for, and how to read the data.

The armed forces of most western nations have specialists who do exactly this. Known as Photographic Interpreters or Imagery Analysts, these men and women frequently spend hours at a time examining a single still photograph or video frame using stereoscopes and other aids, trying to make sense out of what they are looking at. When they have finished their deliberations, a final report is then passed on up the military intelligence chain of command. We will borrow these techniques and use them to analyze the photos a little later in this report, but first we need to examine how America (and "soft" ally Britain) are trying to make us all believe that this is "normal humane treatment" as defined by the Geneva Covention.

On this, Prime Minister Blair of Great Britain is probably the most sickening, trying as he is to make the plight of these torture victims look like a free holiday in the Bahamas. Mr Blair sent a three-man team to "investigate" conditions at Camp X Ray, and then had his spokesman put out the following Orwellian statement:

"The team has confirmed that there are three British nationals in the camp, all of whom were able to speak to freely and without inhibition. There were no gags, no goggles, no ear muffs, no shackles while the detainees are in their cells. They only wear shackles and only shackles - when they are outside their cells. They do get three meals a day including a pre-packed Islamic meal for lunch, they do get as much water as they need and they do get daily medical checks. Nobody is pretending that [conditions] are luxurious but they are basic and they are fit for the requirements of the detainees." Unfortunately this did not sit well with the British tabloid The Daily Mirror, which commented in part:

"This is what is being done in the name of humanity, civilisation and the British people. These prisoners are trapped in open cages, manacled hand and foot, brutalised, tortured and humiliated. We are assured they are cruel, evil men, though not one has been charged, let lone convicted, of any offence. Yet that does not justify the barbaric treatment they are receiving from US forces. Barbarism which is backed by our Government. Tony Blair says he is standing shoulder to shoulder with President Bush. Not on our behalf, he isn't. Mr Bush is close to achieving the impossible - losing the sympathy of the civilised world for what happened in New York and Washington on September 11". The newspaper continues: "If Mr Bush insists on following this path, the rest of the world should leave him in no doubt that he walks it alone. And Tony Blair should be leading the protest."

Can Prime Minister Blair really believe the bland statement: "The team has confirmed that there are three British nationals in the camp, all of whom were able to speak to freely and without inhibition."? Surely not, his wife is a leading Human Right Lawyer, well versed in the methods employed at concentration camps around the world. Cherie Blair will be aware as anyone of the standard ploy used when "important" visitors are due at the camp. All signs of psychological repression, used hypodermic needles, empty drug vials and so on are hidden in a storeroom somewhere, and the prisoners made acutely aware of exactly what will be done to them later if they dare breathe a word to the "important" visitors. Most prisoners keep their mouths tightly shut as instructed, anxious to avoid a bonus hypodermic of whatever drug it is that makes them feel so terrible.

Having mentioned drugs, this is the point at which we turn to the techniques used by photographic interpreters and image analysts, in an attempt to establish which specific forms of torture have been used on these men, for rest assured they have certainly been tortured already. Based on these findings, we will then attempt to predict what is in store for them next, though second-guessing a bunch of crazed shrinks from CIA headquarters might prove difficult.

We already know from the Kandahar photographs that all of these prisoners were subjected to sensory deprivation while en-roue to Cuba, a time period of more than thirty hours. The prime objective of this was total disorientation, which would have been achieved. We know they were forced to wear gloves, meaning their tactile senses [touch] were severely limited. We know they were forced to wear full-face hoods, meaning their visual senses were neutralized, and, at best, their auditory senses [hearing] severely affected.

We do not yet know whether the prisoners were forced to wear ear muffs inside their hoods during the long flight, so at this stage it is impossible to determine which particular auditory effect was desired by their torturers. If hoods were worn without earmuffs, the prisoners would have been subjected to muffled non-stop monotonous aircraft noise, not unlike the "white noise" used in Northern Ireland by the British (see Part One for details). If hoods and earmuffs were worn together, then all sound would have been suppressed, robbing the prisoners of their ability to compensate balance using the middle ear, every time the aircraft pitched or rolled. If you doubt this is genuine psychological torture, try wearing mittens, handcuffs, leg irons, a full-face hood and a set of earmuffs while riding a roller coaster. You will very swiftly change your mind. Now try riding the same roller coaster in this condition non-stop for thirty hours.

Torturers with wives and families, like to play make-believe about treatment like this, because somehow they have to justify their actions to their loved ones and themselves. Some will act like President Bush and claim "they had it coming to them", while others will try and pretend that the pictures leaked by the US Navy from Camp X Ray simply show the men waiting to be allocated individual cells. No they do not, and besides, who are these men? We have no way of telling whether these pitiful creatures were really members of the largely imaginary al Qaeda, members of the Taliban, or simply Afghan citizens snatched off the street of Kandahar or Kabul by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Now take a close look at the photographs. The one of the left was leaked by the US Navy, and the one of the right is my modest attempt to enlarge a section to show the actual equipment attached to each man. The first point to strike any analyst looking at the left hand picture is that all ten prisoners are kneeling with their legs crossed under their buttocks. Not a very comfortable position, and not one they would choose. If the prisoners were merely waiting for cells they could have been seated on simple benches bolted to the ground, but were not. In the position they have been forced to squat, their calves and feet will eventually go numb, thereby enhancing the overall effect of sensory deprivation; a form of torture expressly prohibited in America and most other civilized nations. This point alone provides hard evidence of torture by the three Americans shown in the photograph, who can later be identified and prosecuted for war crimes.

Once more in the left picture, although the prisoners cannot see each other at all, all ten are leaning forwards at an angle more acute than that required by the handcuffs attached to the waist belts. Why? Also, with the sole exception of the central figure, all have their heads hanging down close to their chests. Why? For any analyst this is a tough call, but the answer is of critical importance in determining the prisoners' exact treatment during the hour immediately before this photograph was taken.

If the US Government was telling the truth when it stated that these prisoners were being properly fed, watered and housed, then they would still have their strength. If they still had their strength they would be holding their heads up high ? an entirely natural thing to do while trying to maintain equilibrium. They are not holding their heads up high, proof enough of maltreatment, but not enough to prove partial starvation or deprivation of water.

What, then? The closest we can get at this stage is to consider not just the bowed heads, but also the hunched posture of the bodies. Which position would you naturally and willingly adopt if you had severe stomach cramps? Correct ? you would bend forwards as far as possible, trying to ease the pain. We do not have absolute proof of this yet, but drug induced stomach cramps are as old as the KGB in the Gulag, and the CIA in Cambodia and Laos. There are a number of different drugs that cause this effect, most of which have been used by both the KGB and CIA during their long and despicable pasts. Another way this posture could be created in all of the men would be by electrodes applied to the genitals, though this seems unlikely in the confines of a quasi-military establishment like Camp X Ray.

Both photographs provide additional supportive proof that induced stomach cramps are the most likely cause of the unbelievable subservience of these "very, very dangerous" men. Look at the picture on the right and decide which part of the equipment strapped to this prisoner is effectively surplus to requirement, i.e. not required at all in terms of restraint or sensory deprivation. Have you taken a good look? OK, the only surplus item is the paper surgical mask obscuring each prisoner's lower face. It is far too thin to be of any use in blocking the olfactory senses [smell] in sensory deprivation terms, but it does effectively mask the entire face from the gaze of casual passers by.

Stomach cramps are excruciatingly painful, and the pain always shows on the face, especially around the mouth when the victim grits his teeth and sometimes dribbles. Now then, we wouldn't want a passing US Navy rating from the nearby base copping an eyeful of that, would we? Prisoners gnashing their teeth and foaming at the mouth might be deemed reason enough [even for a lowly rating] to report the matter to his commanding officer. Hence the paper face masks, because realistic analysis provides no other reasonable explanation.

All this from a single photograph? It does seem a little unlikely, but trained photographic interpreters and imagery analysts have in the past derived far more detail from a single frame, simply because they knew what they were looking for. If the US Government wishes to prove this analysis wrong then all it has to do is allow the general public access at designated visiting times, as is normal at other prisons.

Naturally enough the US Government will do no such thing, gripped as its members are at the moment by the need to exact revenge on anyone, innocent or guilty, in order to bolster its flagging integrity. George Dubya Bush and Donald Rumsfeld in particular, appear to be in the grip of severe Redneck Swamp Fever.

The incredibly brave spook torturers at Camp X Ray are proceeding with their rerun of the Spanish Inquisition, happy in the belief that they are immune from prosecution. After all, has not their Commander in Chief George Dubya Bush stated publicly that Cuba lies outside United States jurisdiction? Well yes he has, but George Dubya is almost certainly wrong.

Guantanamo Bay was first leased by the United States from the new Republic of Cuba in 1903, to implement an act of Congress of the United States approved 2 March 1901, and an appendix to the Constitution of the Republic of Cuba promulgated 20 May 1902. The lease stipulates the area is to be used only for a coaling and naval station. No provisions exist at all for prisoner of war or concentration camps.

For nearly one hundred years, the United States has exercised the essential elements of sovereignty over this territory, without actually owning it. Persons on the reservation are amenable only to United States legislative enactments. Guantanamo Bay is thus a Naval reservation which, for all practical purposes, is American sovereign territory, with all that implies for American torturers later caught on the mainland of the United States. As George Dubya himself is so fond of saying: "These are evil men, and we will bring them to justice."









Post#1877 at 01-29-2002 07:07 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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01-29-2002, 07:07 AM #1877
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
3,857

A torture victim's view of Camp X-Ray:

(For info and discussion purposes)

http://www.consider.net/forum_new.ph...N=200201280008

I know what Camp X-Ray feels like

Charles Glass Monday 28th January 2002

Charles Glass on how his fellow Americans treat prisoners worse than Hezbollah treated him

The first thing they do is cover your eyes. They make you strip to make sure you're not carrying anything. They replace your clothes with uniforms that are not clothes at all. They chain you by hand and foot. They drag you away and leave you on your own. They interrogate you. They say you are going to die if you won't talk. They feed you - you're not much good to them if you starve to death.

It sounds like Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to which the United States military is deporting men it has captured in Afghanistan. But it was Lebanon in the 1980s. The Hezbollah, Lebanon's Shi'ite Muslim Party of God, kidnapped foreigners between 1982 and 1989 at the behest of their Iranian benefactors. I remember the drill - the blindfold, chains, solitude and loneliness. I was there for two months in 1987. It was a bad time, and it seemed unlikely to me then that I would one day see photographs of my countrymen treating Muslim prisoners much as I was treated.

I thought the Eighth Amendment to the US constitution prohibited "cruel and unusual punishments". I'm looking at the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments that Americans regard as sacred, and read the words "nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted". Full stop. It does not say that only American passport-holders, legal residents of the United States and members of the Senate who take contributions from corporations that violate the law are exempt from government torments. It makes clear that no category of human being is excluded from America's obligation to refrain from cruel and unusual punishments. Amendment VIII means suspects; it means enemies; it means criminals; it means prisoners of war; it means - and the term is as new to me and you as it undoubtedly is to the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld - "illegal" combatants. Who is illegal and who is legal, by the way, has always been for the courts of the United States to decide, not the Department of Defence. As for international law, the Geneva Conventions say that "captured combatants or civilians" have certain rights - including to correspond with their families - without any distinction between "legal" and "illegal" combatants.

I wonder now whether some mullah in Tehran said, when a score of Americans and Europeans were illegally held against their will in Lebanon: "Obviously, anyone would be concerned if people were suggesting that treatment was not proper." That is what Rumsfeld said on television the other day. Rumsfeld's concern for the Muslims chained like Caliban on America's Caribbean base seems to match what Tehran's mullahs felt for us. The mullahs, at least, knew that holding American, French, British and German captives in Lebanon during the 1980s was so shameful that they never admitted it. Rumsfeld seems proud. His is not some secret operation, like the CIA's Phoenix programme of assassinations and torture in Vietnam. It's out in the open.

If Rumsfeld has not read the constitution to which he has taken an oath, if he does not see the cruelty in the treatment of those men in Cuba, he could at least admit that tying men up, blocking their sight, cutting them off from their families and flying them around the world is unusual.

"The fact is that treatment is proper," Rumsfeld insisted. "There is no doubt in my mind that it is humane and appropriate and consistent with the Geneva Conventions for the most part." For the most part? Which part? The shackles? The blindfold goggles? The six-by-eight-foot cages? At least Hezbollah put me in a normal-sized room.

It wasn't much of a room, bare but for a paper-thin mattress on the floor, with a sheet of steel to seal the window. I never saw daylight, but they did turn the electric lights off at night so I could sleep. The men in Guantanamo enjoy no such luxury: arc lights are left on all night so the US marine guards can keep an eye on them. I'm not sure why. Where are they going to go? We are told they don't even know where they are. If they manage to clear the fences and minefields, the Cubans on the other side have said they'll hand them back to the US.

During the 62 days I spent alone in that room in Beirut, all I could do was sit for hours and hours, thinking, praying, hoping. Some friends of mine did that for five years. It was mistreatment, cruel and unusual. The Hezbollah interrogators justified it. The Israeli army, they said, kept Lebanese inmates of Khiam prison, in south Lebanon, under worse conditions. (When international observers at last went into Khiam after Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, they confirmed that the interrogation rooms and cells were much, much worse than anything I had experienced as a hostage.) The Israelis' brutality to their prisoners no more justified what the Hezbollah did to its hostages in Lebanon than the Hezbollah's actions excuse what the US is doing in Cuba.


An American may some day be arrested or kidnapped by those whose sympathies lie with the Camp X-Ray detainees. What will his captors say when he pleads that his conditions violate international law? Will their answer be to play for him videotapes of the X-Ray detainees and of Rumsfeld's press conferences?

Britain, as it has done with every US action in every battle or bombardment for the past 20 years, justified Camp X-Ray. A government spokesman was quoted as saying, after a British delegation toured the camp last Friday: "There were no gags, no goggles, no earmuffs and no shackles while the detainees were in their cells."

Why would anyone need to shackle and blind them in their cells? The Hezbollah let its hostages remove their blindfolds when they were alone in their locked rooms. When a guard or interrogator entered, however, the blindfold had to come on quickly. The Hezbollahi, realising that they might be held accountable in court for their crimes, did not want us to identify them. It was a sensible precaution. Perhaps Rumsfeld should wear a hood over his head so no one will recognise him.

(c) Charles Glass, 2002








Post#1878 at 01-29-2002 10:01 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Stonewall, if even a fraction of the allegations in these articles is true, I am ashamed for our country. :sad:

Kiff '61







Post#1879 at 01-29-2002 12:06 PM by msm [at joined Dec 2001 #posts 201]
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My God, Stonewall, how ignorant can one person be? This issue has been hammered to death in the media. Anyone should be able by now to see that the prisoners at Gitmo are being treated quite well by the standards of civilized countries (better than IRA terrorists are treated in British prisons, for example), and amazingly well by the standards of all countries.

Restraining prisoners while transporting them is not torture. As for the conditions of their cells, they are living better than members of our own army at Gitmo.

I'm not even going to waste any more time on this. You're ignorant. Next time, spend some time looking at both sides and thinking before you post.








Post#1880 at 01-29-2002 01:13 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-29 09:06, msm wrote:

My God, Stonewall, how ignorant can one person be? This issue has been hammered to death in the media. Anyone should be able by now to see that the prisoners at Gitmo are being treated quite well by the standards of civilized countries (better than IRA terrorists are treated in British prisons, for example), and amazingly well by the standards of all countries.

Restraining prisoners while transporting them is not torture. As for the conditions of their cells, they are living better than members of our own army at Gitmo.

I'm not even going to waste any more time on this. You're ignorant. Next time, spend some time looking at both sides and thinking before you post.
I believe that I made it clear that I do not endorse what is in the article for the simple reason that I do not know what to believe (although it would help tremendously if the current administration were not so prone to secrecy and a little more forthcoming with information as is generally expected of servants). Consequently, I do not know why you "waste[d] any more [of your] time on this" post of yours above either.







Post#1881 at 01-29-2002 03:22 PM by msm [at joined Dec 2001 #posts 201]
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Stonewall says:

"I believe that I made it clear that I do not
endorse what is in the article for the simple
reason that I do not know what to believe"

Well, since you admit that you willingly post stuff to this forum without neccessarily believing it, allow me (1) to make you the last person in the world to learn that the prisoners are being treated quite humanely, and (2) to reiterate: my complaint stands; you need to filter your information better, and not just post anything you come across.

"(although it would help tremendously if the
current administration were not so prone to
secrecy and a little more forthcoming with
information as is generally expected of
servants)."

The current administration invited the International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and the press in general to visit Camp X-Ray *weeks* ago. How is this being too secretive? If they wanted to be secretive, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't have heard anybody whining about jumpsuits and shackles, and how it is so "brutal" to make people temporarily wear something much more comfortable than the Mickey Mouse suit that Disney makes some poor guy wear at Disneyworld all year.

The whole "the prisoners are being brutalized" argument has already been laughed off the world stage. Get up to speed, will yah?







Post#1882 at 01-29-2002 04:00 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
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Trying to talk any sense to one that has chosen the state of Paranoia as home is, well, just about as futile as trying with his liberal neighbors that live just down the pike in nearby Nirvana. :smile:










Post#1883 at 01-29-2002 05:05 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Does this mean that right-wingers are "anti-intellectual"? (Note: this was mean totally as a joke, and not to offend anyone) So if you have children in college, or going to college, you must beware that the professors are pinko communist tree hugging green ex-hippies. I will emphasize key segments of this article.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=26235

<font color="blue">
Deeply deluded intellectuals

? 2002 Linda Bowles

Parents who spend $30,000 or more a year to provide their offspring a prestigious education at an Ivy League school are almost certain to be buying their sons and daughters a first-class indoctrination into radical left-wing ideology ? from which they may never recover.

It is not exactly news to find that many of the professors at schools such as Harvard, Yale and Princeton don't think like most mainstream Americans, and make no effort to disguise their contempt for Western culture, religious faith, patriotism and capitalism. They fuzzily believe that communism or something like it should probably be given another chance.

The latest survey to measure the ideological outlook of Ivy League professors was conducted by the Luntz Research Companies. Several questions were posed to 151 professors, most of whom teach in the humanities. Their answers revealed a lock-step, collectivist parade of conforming liberals. As far as the eye could see, or the survey could reach, there was essentially no evidence of intellectual diversity.

For example, of those professors who voted in the 2000 election, 84 percent voted for Al Gore, 9 percent voted for George Bush, and 6 percent voted for Ralph Nader.

Asked about party affiliation, 3 percent admitted they were Republicans while 57 percent declared themselves Democrats. </font> {Who did the other 40% support?} <font color="blue">This is a sharp contrast from surveys of the general population with 37 percent declaring themselves Republicans and 34 percent confessing that they are Democrats. When asked to name the best president of the past 40 years "all things considered," Clinton got 26 percent, Kennedy 17 percent, Johnson 15 percent, Carter 13 percent, and Ronald Reagan 4 percent.

Forty percent of the professors support reparations for slavery, which compares with only 11 percent support in the general population as measured in national polls.

The purpose of the survey was to measure the political views of those who teach the humanities and compare them with the views of mainstream America. Those who enter the field of education because they want to be social or political change agents are attracted to the teaching of soft subjects in the humanities such as English literature, history and sociology.

The reason is simple: If, for example, one is teaching math, things have to add up. If, however, one is teaching a revisionist version of history, or a feminist version of literary works by "dead white males," nothing has to add up, and the subject matter may serve as a platform for the trashing of American culture, values and traditions.

Lee Bockhorn is an associate editor of The Weekly Standard. He wrote an opinion piece about the survey which accepted the obvious reality that "the poll results are pretty damning for those who would still deny that professors at America's most prestigious universities are, on balance, somewhere to the left of Che Guevara." At the same time, he was not particularly worried, agreeing with colleague David Brooks, who wrote, " ... most students today are so apolitical that whatever radical propagandizing their professors are doing doesn't seem to be rubbing off on them. They may be turning into relativists but they're not turning into socialists." </font> {I wouldn't hold my breath. Read this article. Our college students are turning into tree hugging pinko communists! :lol: }<font color="blue">

Arnold Beichman, distinguished scholar at the Hoover Institution, is not so optimistic concerning the role of "intellectuals" in our society. His recent article in The Washington Times is descriptively titled "Barbarians at the Lectern." He cites the deep-rooted hatred articulated by intellectual Susan Sontag, who said in 1967 that "the white race is the cancer of human history," and asserted in 2001 that the Sept. 11 tragedy was not a tragedy at all but "an attack on the world's self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions." The University of California at Los Angeles recently purchased the literary archives of Sontag for a reported record $1.1 million.

Beichman writes, "It is one of the anomalies of our time that it was highly intelligent people who willingly and actively supported Lenin, Stalin, Hitler or Mao during the 20th century supremacy of these master genocidists." </font> {Hopefully, instead of worshippng Hitler, Mao, or Stalin, we will instead support Benjamin Franklin, Samuel Adams, and FDR.} <font color="blue">

The "blame America" crowd heard today on college campuses reminds Beichman that these "irrational intellectuals ... are with us today as they were back in <big>1932</big> when Theodore Dreiser, Sherwood Anderson, Erskine Caldwell, Edmund Wilson, John Dos Passos, Lincoln Steffens, Malcolm Cowley and Upton Sinclair, among others, signed a joint letter endorsing the communist presidential candidate because, they wrote, 'It is capitalism which is destructive of all culture, and communism which desires to save civilization and its cultural heritage from the abyss to which the world crisis is driving it.'"

Many deeply deluded intellectuals are today standing at the lectern delivering repackaged and poisonous anti-American messages to our young sons and daughters.</font>
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#1884 at 01-29-2002 05:06 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-29 12:22, msm wrote:

Well, since you admit that you willingly post stuff to this forum without neccessarily believing it,
We do not necessarily post things here on the basis of whether we believe them or disbelieve them. We post things here which may be indicative of whether we are in 3T or 4T. Do you understand the difference? The administration's expressed desire to torture criminal suspects is in and of itself a monumental change in policy, not to mention a clear and unequivocal violation of the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. The introduction of torture, and people's reaction to it, may bear upon the turning.

allow me (1) to make you the last person in the world to learn that the prisoners are being treated quite humanely,
Your stated belief rests upon the assumption that government and the media are providing you with the truth. Not everyone accepts that assumption, particularly given the events of the past decade or so.

and (2) to reiterate: my complaint stands; you need to filter your information better, and not just post anything you come across.
What you are saying is that you personally object to the information I posted. There are others in this country who do not. The turning is not dictated by your verdict alone.

The current administration invited the International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and the press in general to visit Camp X-Ray *weeks* ago. How is this being too secretive?
Asserting executive privilege to prevent exposure and prosecution of proven Justice Department wrongdoing dating back three decades. Dick Cheney devising the energy policy in secret, unaccountably, despite justified protests. Placing George W. Bush's papers from his term as governor in his father's presidential library in an effort to flout Texas freedom of information laws. Issuing an Executive Order intended to overturn an act of Congress thereby preventing release of Reagan administration papers (when Bush Sr. was Vice President). Calling for terrorist suspects to be tried in secret tribunals with no right of appeal when we still have a court system and we pride ourselves justifiably on the superiority of our Anglo-Saxon legal tradition (innocent until proven guilty, etc.). Centralization of all our intelligence agencies under the Office of Homeland Security with sweeping powers under the USA PATRIOT Act to monitor any American without his knowledge and without a warrant...all in secret. The list continues on virtually indefinitely.

It is a truth of human nature that people who feel the need to cloak all their activities in secrecy generally have something to hide. Such people do not carry much credibility with their claims. Only a fool takes them at their word.

If they wanted to be secretive, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't have heard anybody whining about jumpsuits and shackles, and how it is so "brutal" to make people temporarily wear something much more comfortable than the Mickey Mouse suit that Disney makes some poor guy wear at Disneyworld all year.
If you had read the article, you would have taken note of the author's claim that the only reason we in fact know about any of this at all is because the military leaked it after witnessing the CIA's torture techniques in disgust. This is plausible, however the author could also be wrong. Regardless, just because the administration claims something does not make it so.

The whole "the prisoners are being brutalized" argument has already been laughed off the world stage. Get up to speed, will yah?
You have obviously laughed it off and that is your business. However your judgment is non-binding on any other living soul. Some of us are keeping an open mind given the administration's continually demonstrated problem with openness and the truth. The very desire of this administration to reintroduce torture after five centuries of advance beyond it in western civilization is appalling. Some of us who so often find ourselves at odds with this and other administrations have a justified fear of the inevitable expansion of such a policy. This is one genie which ought not be let out of the bottle. And frankly the Eighth Amendment forbids it...not that this administration has ever cared what the Constitution says.








Post#1885 at 01-29-2002 05:37 PM by angeli [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 1,114]
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British Papers on Camp X-Ray, same old, same old.

reprinted for discussion purposes only.
----------------


Three strikes and you're out. Human rights, US style

As Americans shrug off criticism of Camp X-Ray, thousands of their countrymen suffer cruel but all-too-usual punishment

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Saturday January 26, 2002
The Guardian

The scene is a battered old green and white bungalow in the heart of South Central, Los Angeles, which serves as the local Quakers' meeting house. There are around 20 people here, heads bowed and holding hands as one of their number, Carmen Ewell, asks the Lord for his help in the mighty task facing them.
That task involves changing one of the most controversial statutes in the US, the three strikes law, so the people now serving prison sentences of 25 years to life for offences including stealing four cookies, and possession of $10 worth of drugs will be able to return to their lives.

In a week that has been dominated in Europe by debate about the way al-Qaida suspects are being treated in Guantanamo Bay, in the US itself the public mood is utterly unflustered by such human rights issues. For this is the country that has jailed a higher percentage of its citizens than any other in the world. And this is the country that has embraced the three strikes law.

The law was introduced after the horrific murder of a 12-year-old girl called Polly Klaas in 1993. Her abductor and murderer, Richard Allen Davis, was a three-time offender who was on parole. In the wake of the outrage over the crime, Californians voted for an initiative which called for three-time felons to be jailed for a minimum of 25 years. The initiative became law, and now more than 30 states in the US have adopted their own versions of it.

Under three strikes, violent criminals like Davis have been locked up for life. But it has also been used to sweep thousands of homeless people, drug addicts and petty offenders off the streets and into jail with sentences that bear little relationship to the crime. Critics of the law claim it has created a Siberia of forgotten prisoners, mainly black and Latino, who are the victims of cruel and unusual punishment.

Gregory Taylor, for instance, was a homeless man who used to hang around outside St Joseph's church in Los Angeles and would often ask the priest for food. The priest was usually able to find him something over the nine or so years he knew him. Shortly after 4am one morning in 1997, Taylor decided he could not wait for the friendly priest and pried open the church's kitchen door. A security guard spotted him and the police were called. He is now serving 25 years to life because the break-in was his third felony. When he appealed unsuccessfully against his sentence last year, one of the dissenting judges said the case was "like something from Les Mis?rables".

Taylor's case is far from isolated. At this meeting of the South Central chapter of Families to Amend California's Three Strikes (Facts) there are mothers and fathers and girlfriends and wives of other prisoners who face dying in prison for offences which in other parts of the world might not even merit a fine. "This is an insane law," says Geri Silva, who is chairing the meeting. "It's like cutting off a hand for stealing a slice of bread."

"The United States is a very unforgiving country at the moment," says Gail Blackwell, who works at the Facts office in South Central. Her friend, Joey Buckhalter, was jailed for 75 years to life for stealing a wallet with $24 in it. "People are more interested in punishment and revenge than in rehabilitation. People don't even care about the 2m people in jail in their country in terrible conditions."

Fred Zullo, another Facts supporter, is the father of 24-year-old Philip Zullo, now facing 75 years to life for making threatening phone calls. He is mentally ill, suffering from a bipolar and obsessive compulsive disorder. Mr Zullo says his son's offence arose out of a desire to commit "suicide-by-cop", a not-uncommon scenario in which disturbed people threaten the police, often with dummy weapons, in the hope they will be shot.

Philip Zullo telephoned an ex-girlfriend and her family, another girlfriend and her mother and threatened them with horrific violence. He then told the police he was wearing a bulletproof vest and had an AK-47 and said they would have to shoot him in the head to kill him. He has never owned a gun. But because he made three threats, a maximum 25-year sentence for each offence is multiplied three times.

"He is mentally ill," Fred Zullo says. "Never in his life has he harmed anyone. He didn't even remember the calls. He just said, 'Dad, I screwed up again.'"

The prosecution has indicated that it will seek the maximum sentence. The local district attorney has a reputation as a hardliner; his ranch is called Hang 'em High. He has already turned down a plea not to pursue the three strikes option. Of the law, Fred Zullo says wryly: "I was in favour of it, unfortunately. A lot of people didn't realise what it meant."

He has met Joe Klaas, the grandfather of the murdered Polly who now says the family's intention was never that the law should be used to incarcerate inadequates, minor non-violent offenders or the mentally ill. Indeed Mr Klaas even signed a personal ad that ran in the New York Times in which he said: "My family regrets that the law cast in her name has cast too wide a net."

He pointed out that 50% of three-strikers are non-violent performers: "Does three strikes offer enough benefits to justify its huge fiscal and societal impact? It's too late to bring Polly back but it's not too late to make California a wiser, safer state."

Ricky Fontenot is serving 27 years to life for being in a car with a friend in which a gun was found. His last previous serious felony was in 1979 when he was 18. He had since become involved in community action, had a full-time job and was married with three children. The prosecution offered him a deal whereby he would serve only four years but he insisted he was innocent and was thus hit with the maximum.

"We have dedicated our lives to trying to get him out," says his stepfather, Roland McFarland, after the South Central meeting. "It's expensive - you've got to come up with that almighty dollar. There are some vicious crimes that should be addressed and I would support a three strikes law for that but not for people who have never even threatened anyone."

These are just a tiny sample of the cases. Probably the most famous is still that of Jerry Dewayne Williams, who at the age of 27 was sentenced to 25 years to life for stealing a slice of pepperoni pizza. He was eventually freed on appeal after six years. Kevin Weber stole four cookies from a Santa Ana restaurant in 1995 and was jailed for 25 years. Duane Silva, a 23-year-old with manic depression and an IQ of 70, received 30 years to life sentence for stealing a video recorder and a coin collection from his neighbours. His previous convictions were for setting fire to rubbish bins and to the glove compartment of a car. Then there is Doug Rosh, doing 25 years for possession of $10 worth of cocaine. Mary Thompson, doing 25 years for petty theft. Joyce Demeyers, doing 25 years for $20 worth of cocaine. Constantine Aguilar, doing 25 years for receiving stolen property. Chano Orozco, doing 25 years to life for possession of about $10 worth of heroin. Frederick Morgan, doing 25 years to life for simple possession of drugs and petty theft.

A total of 6,700 people are now serving 25 years to life under the law and Facts says more than 3,350 of them are non-violent offenders, with 350 serving 25 years for petty theft. Of those serving third strike sentences, 44% are black and 26% Latino.

One of the main arguments for the three strikes law is that it has cut crime in California. Certainly crime has dropped in the period during which it has been in place but it has fallen yet further in states with no three strikes law. The San Francisco area, where prosecutors rarely use the law for non-violent offenders, has also seen a sharp drop. New York state, with no three strikes law, and California showed the same crime reduction of 41% between 1993 and 1999, according to the Sentencing Project in Washington.

Those campaigning to change the law are now pinning their hopes on Jackie Goldberg, a Democratic state assemblywoman who is introducing a bill to limit the heaviest application of the law to criminals convicted of violent or serious crimes. The day she announced her bill, a survey carried out jointly by Facts and Citizens Against Violent Crime showed that 65% of Californians believe that the law should be used only against violent felons.

But this is election year in California. Governor Gray Davis, already accused of seriously mishandling the state's power crisis, is in no mood for reform as he runs for re-election. Bill Jones, a Republican eyeing his job, said this week that changing the law would give criminals a "get out of jail free card".

The Los Angeles district attorney, Steve Cooley, agrees that the law has been wrongly applied in the past, but says there is little chance of retrospective action to free those jailed for minor non-violent offences because few politicians want to be accused of being soft on crime.

There is also a powerful prison-industrial complex which has a very clear financial incentive in maintaining the three strikes law. California spends $5.7bn a year on its prisons and there would be fierce lobbying against any reduction in the budget. The prison officers' union is a powerful political player and fights any reform that might put members out of work. It has donated $2m to Governor Davis's campaign.

Back at the South Central meeting, Carmen Ewell, whose husband is in jail for passing a dud cheque, calls on the Lord for his help in persuading the law-makers that the three strikes law is indeed cruel if it is no longer unusual. But, for the time being at least, it would seem that Les Mis?rables is assured of a long run in California.







Post#1886 at 01-29-2002 07:44 PM by msm [at joined Dec 2001 #posts 201]
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Stonewall, your last post mixed up a lot of issues.

For example, to rebut my argument that the administartion has not been secretive about Camp X-Ray, you listed a lot of OTHER things the administration HAS been secretive about. To state your rebuttal is to refute it.

I'm all for keeping "an open mind". But some of the articles you are posting are so behind-the-curve that I had to point it out.

If it's torture you're talking about, why are you posting articles about torture at Guantanamo? That's what I'm talking about.

If you insist on pointing out the logical possiblity that there is a vast conspiracy, which includes the entire news media, to make it appear that the prisoners at Camp X-Ray are being tortured, I cannot completely discount this possiblity, but argue that it is very unlikely.

As for torture in general, that argument whent on in the media sevseral months ago. The head of the FBI said he was morally opposed to the use of torture under almost any case. Intelligence experts argued that intelligence gained under torture is rarely useful. Several conservative pundits not in the government did advocate the use of torture, but no major government figure did.

Certain agencies may be secretly using torture, of course, but in public, the matter kind of died down. I don't see how you can say it is a fact that the government openly advocates torture when every major government figure who has commented on it publicly has come out against it.







Post#1887 at 01-29-2002 07:54 PM by msm [at joined Dec 2001 #posts 201]
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I guess what I'm saying comes down to, if you are talking about torture at Gitmo (which your posted articles talked about), that issue has been focused on very closely and has been refuted by all reasonable parties.

If you are talking about secret CIA torture at Mazar-E-Sharif and other places in Afghanistan, that issue hasn't received nearly as much media attention, and has not been refuted.

PUBLICALLY, the administration says it is against torture.







Post#1888 at 01-29-2002 08:43 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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http://www.arizonarepublic.com/opini...2benson331.gif

msm:

You wouldn't have heard anybody whining about jumpsuits and shackles, and how it is so "brutal" to make people temporarily wear something much more comfortable than the Mickey Mouse suit that Disney makes some poor guy wear at Disneyworld all year.



The comparison with Disneyworld is not very good. A critical part of "torture" or "abuse" is that it is involuntary. I'm sure we would all agree that stripping a prisoner down to their skivvies and dunking them in icy water would be a form of abuse; yet, each year, groups [of maniacs] called "Polar Bear" clubs do that very thing to themselves for "fun".



You can't just look at individual elements of a person's captivity to determine whgether or not they are being mistreated. You need to have a sense of the overall context of the elements and the circumstances in which they are being applied. Blindfolds alone as torture? No. Handcuffs alone as torture? No. Gloves alone as torture? No. Long, noisy plane trips alone as toture? No. Put it all together and???





"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1889 at 01-29-2002 08:46 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I'm not at all surprised at the activities of the CIA. To them, this is just normal procedure. The CIA has done worse. Remember that the CIA has opened, and funds the School of the Americas in South America. The CIA has been training the death squads there. The CIA has been engaged in a lot of extracurricular activities since the last Crisis.

The Bush Administration wants total secrecy, and also wants to keep documents governmental activities secret indefinitely. This has the historians raving mad, and many members of Congress are starting to question this. And they should. Sure, we are fighting a "war" against terrorism, but even this is absolutely no excuse. In keeping secrets, our government is moving away from responsibility and accountability. Our executive branch of government wants to upset the system of checks and balances. They want to remove civilian, congressional, and judicial oversight. Is this really new? No, it isn't. There is a lot of precedence for this in our own back yard, and under our noses. The CIA has been doing this since the 1940s.

So, what happens when an organization is given total secrecy? What happens when an organization is free from civilian, legislative, and judicial oversight? The answer is not pretty.

You might want to read Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II.

Here are just a couple of websites to get you started:

http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-overclass.html
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html

Why would Bush want to keep documents hidden forever from view of future historians? Why the total governmental secrecy? Bush wants to put a veil over the entire executive branch of government just as the government put a veil over the CIA decades ago. That can only mean that Bush plans on engaging in horrific activities.

If you are a believer in the most basic American values, if you are a believer in liberty and justice, if you are a believer in the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, the Gettysburg Address, or the I Have a Dream speech, then you must not allow this. This goes against everything Americans have fought and died for.

If we really want to protect our nation, then we must take note of everything our politicians do. We have to actually participate in our civil affairs if we want to fight this. Voting and just sitting back is not the way to run a society. We are a society for the people, by the people, and of the people. As such, it is US who need to be responsible for what our nation does, and where we want it to go. As civilians, it is our duty to see to it that our government is run correctly. The founding fathers realized this, and it is time that we realize this too. We are sitting back, being "patriots" while OUR government is engaging in very un-American activities. We have forgotten what it means to be a patriot. Being a patriot does not mean blind support for the government. Being a patriot means being active in the affairs of society. It means taking on responsibilities of keep the society in order. It means making sure that the people we vote for are not abusing their powers, or using it wrongly in any case. It means working to ensure that the nation lives up to its highest ideals, and accepting nothing less. So it is time for us to start acting like true patriots, and telling the government that this is wrong. It is time for us civilians to take back this nation, and run it correctly, and in accordance with our highest and most fundamental ideals.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Post#1890 at 01-29-2002 11:27 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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I must confess that I lose no sleep in the knowledge that our Government may be subjecting the al-Queda prisoners at Guantanamo to torture. The 3000+ victims of September 11th surely suffered much worse (being burned to death by exploding jet fuel, jumping 110 stories, etc.) than anything the CIA could devise to gain their "cooperation". These scumbags deserve no pity whatsoever from Americans or whomever else.

Having said that, I do fear that when the President of The United States in effect supports the torture of de facto prisoners of war, it may be but the top of a slippery slope. We have already seen homegrown terrorism at Oklahoma City, Columbine, and quite probably with the anthrax attacks. What if the current Fourth Turning (and I still believe that we are in one) brings about a collapse of the American social order, resulting in home-grown terrorism on a greater scale than we have seen? With the public's tacit approval of torturing foreign nationals held prisoner, would it be so far a jump for the government to begin torturing American citizens who were "suspected terrorists"? Then, might Government agents begin labeling mere political opponents as "suspected terrorists" so as to justify their capture, and torture?

This is my fear regarding the torture of al-Queda members. I have no sympathy for the animals who conspired to attack our Nation. But I do fear that crossing the line against torture could eventually threaten innocent American citizens.







Post#1891 at 01-29-2002 11:37 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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On 2002-01-29 20:27, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:
I must confess that I lose no sleep in the knowledge that our Government may be subjecting the al-Queda prisoners at Guantanamo to torture. The 3000+ victims of September 11th surely suffered much worse (being burned to death by exploding jet fuel, jumping 110 stories, etc.) than anything the CIA could devise to gain their "cooperation". These scumbags deserve no pity whatsoever from America.

Having said that, I do fear that wheans or whomever else.n the President of The United States in effect supports the torture of de facto prisoners of war, it may be but the top of a slippery slope. We have already seen homegrown terrorism at Oklahoma City, Columbine, and quite probably with the anthrax attacks. What if the current Fourth Turning (and I still believe that we are in one) brings about a collapse of the American social order, resulting in home-grown terrorism on a greater scale than we have seen? With the public's tacit approval of torturing foreign nationals held prisoner, would it be so far a jump for the government to begin torturing American citizens who were "suspected terrorists"? Then, might Government agents begin labeling mere political opponents as "suspected terrorists" so as to justify their capture, and torture?

This is my fear regarding the torture of al-Queda members. I have no sympathy for the animals who conspired to attack our Nation. But I do fear that crossing the line against torture could eventually threaten innocent American citizens.
I believe they are alleged "scumbags". What if the torture is of say an Afghan fingered by one of our newfound allies with a personal grudge? They tortured priests and nuns in Central America with our knowledge...was this just? Did those people get what they deserved? Who did this in our name? You are quite right to worry as what goes around, comes around. HTH







Post#1892 at 01-29-2002 11:54 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I wasn't impressed with Bush's State of the Union address. Bush didn't seem to really be into it either. As you might've noticed, the crowd wasn't into it either. Sure Bush received courtesy applause from his Republican comrades, but even they had dead expressions on their faces.

Basically, Bush only reiterated what we already know. He did not really introduce anything new, nothing that hasn't already been said many times since September 11. One gets the feeling that Bush is a pupper, and someone above is controlling his movement with strings. Basically, he laid an agenda for 2002, but again, there was nothing new, nothing to capture the imagination of the American people.

Some of what he says does sound good, but then again, I am on a "wait and see" mode of thought. The problem is not just with Bush himself. It is also with the people around him, and the rot inherent in the system.

My mother believes that Bush is the antichrist, and says that he fits most of the descriptions of what it might be.

My sister, who is Gen X, born in 1980, and largely ignorant of the theory, noted today that events seem to be moving much faster, and seems to be accelerating. And there is a general feeling that everything is breaking apart in society, fast. My mother echoed the same sentiments, and thinks that the rapture is near. Basically, what I DID tell her was that we were basically going to come face to face with the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and that things are only going to get worse before getting better.

So there seems to be a general feeling that things are coming apart very fast. Of course, this all started on September the eleventh. Just before the attacks, on the morning of September 11, I even mentioned that the Fourth Turning was likely to begin very soon (but, for different reasons, of course). However, we are moving much closer to my original reasons for why it would begin soon. Almost immediately after the attacks, the economy went into freefall, and we were hit with bioterror. Then the war started. Now, the collapse of Enron and Global Commerce is generating large waves. There is a general feeling that things are getting urgent, that we are headed for disaster. Right now, everyone seems to greatly fear the future.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Post#1893 at 01-30-2002 12:16 AM by buzzard44 [at suburb of rural Arizona joined Jan 2002 #posts 220]
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After reading the last couple of pages of posts an overwhelming feeling of fatigue has come over me. I'm not sure that I can do this. Too old.. too tired.. I am glad and thankful for you younger ones who enthusiastically address the important issues. I had actually thought that when the time came I would take up the sword of freedom again. But, now I fear that I may be forced to just stand and hold your coats.

However, I take great pleasure in knowing that the fight is in good hands. Give the badies a sharp rap for me will you?
Buz Painter
Never for a long time have I been this
confused.







Post#1894 at 01-30-2002 12:58 AM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
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Man, Buz, you're fallen back to sleep on me here! And I thought you, and yours, were just waking up?

Oh, ho hum :smile:










Post#1895 at 01-30-2002 01:11 AM by buzzard44 [at suburb of rural Arizona joined Jan 2002 #posts 220]
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Well, perhaps just a little nap to see me through to the main event. Tomorrow comes so quickly these days. I think that I suffer from Seasonal Affect Disorder. What I need is a good shot of light. Anyway, I see that my sword is a bit rusty. Get a new one or sit this one out? I don't know.
Buz Painter
Never for a long time have I been this
confused.







Post#1896 at 01-30-2002 01:12 AM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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On 2002-01-29 21:08, choselh wrote:
I agree Robert. Not that Dubya is the antichrist :smile:, but that we are somehow fast-forwarding into 4T.
He isn't, yet. But someone must kill him first, and he must rise from the dead to become the antichrist.
It's funny, because back in September when everyone on this board was saying "This is it!", I was somewhat more cautious. I wasn't sure that the mood would stick. Now that some people are starting to say "Well nothing's really changed after all", I really am thinking that it has.
I remember someone on this board saying that for it to be 4T, it must look 3T to the civilians, as it will spur them into action. The way it is looking, we are seeing exactly this happening. I, too, still think that we are in 4T. With a much more liberal Millie generation entering campi across the nation, we should see this generation flex its muscle. The Millies are already beginning their young adulthood stage. They are already embarking on projects, and organizing for communal and political purpose. Let's add that most professors are far to the left, and it only takes a little use of imagination to see what will soon happen.
The economy is still faltering, and our president seems to be able to get away with anything under the guise of "national security." I didn't have much invested in the stock market anyway, (I'm not that rich!) but I sold it all a few weeks ago.
I think you probably made a good choice. What do you think will happen to the stocks if GE collapses? As for getting away with anything under the guise of security, I think more people are realizing that. But then again, true patriotism is not about blindly following behind the government, and supporting everything it does. True patriotism is about doing your duty to make sure that the nation is run correctly, and that we run it according to our highest and must fundamental ideals. People are waking up to this sentiment too (especially Millies).
We may still be in the early stages of winter, but it is surely on the way.
Definitely.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Post#1897 at 01-30-2002 02:04 AM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I'm sure that many of you will find this funny.

http://www.contractwiththeplanet.org/sotu/sotu1.html
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#1898 at 01-30-2002 11:16 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-29 16:44, msm wrote:

Stonewall, your last post mixed up a lot of issues.

For example, to rebut my argument that the administartion has not been secretive about Camp X-Ray, you listed a lot of OTHER things the administration HAS been secretive about. To state your rebuttal is to refute it.
Huh? You are really getting tedious. The next time I am in a used car lot, will you have me prove to you that a shady salesman is being completely honest about the car of your choice? No thanks, I'll pass. If you trust the salesman with respect to this car, then you buy it. Don't criticize me for walking away from it.

I'm all for keeping "an open mind". But some of the articles you are posting are so behind-the-curve that I had to point it out.
Your designation of "behind the curve" is founded solely upon your faith that this highly secretive administration is being completely forthcoming in this one instance. Therefore your designation really does not carry any weight and there was no need for you to "point it out."

As for torture in general, that argument whent on in the media sevseral months ago. The head of the FBI said he was morally opposed to the use of torture under almost any case.
So you are telling me that politicians and public officials are noted for their honesty and candor? LOL! As a matter of fact, the public official to which you refer is Robert Mueller who formerly headed the Boston office of the FBI, and we are asked to believe that he was completely ignorant of all the documented wrongdoing going on under him at that office which the administration just shielded by asserting executive privilege in a completely bizarre and unprecedented manner (read recent columns by conservatives Bob Novak and William Safire for details). Additionally, Robert Mueller was indispensable to Bush Sr. 10-12 years ago when he used his position in the FBI's Criminal Division to foil the investigation into BCCI and a few other things which were potentially very damaging to Sr. (do a Google search). Robert Mueller is a Bush "family friend" from way back and his extremely questionable record attaches roughly zero credibility to anything he might say. However all this is really beside the point. Just because an official states a position does not mean that he truly holds that position. Even ten year olds have already grasped this point.

BTW, I included the detail about Robert Mueller, FBI head (to whom you referred), to further demonstrate why it is difficult for many honest, rational people to just accept on its face whatever this administration tells them. There really is no legitimate reason for you to belittle people who question what they are told by Bush administration officials with zero credibility.

Intelligence experts argued that intelligence gained under torture is rarely useful.
Oh, puhleeze! So why is it exactly that the CIA and other agencies keep so many psychiatrists and psychologists on their staffs? Are they devising color blindness tests 24/7? These agencies are deeply interested in psychological warfare and psychological torture techniques and have been for decades. This is very old news. Now you are even accepting whatever spooks tell you without question. No further comment....

Several conservative pundits not in the government did advocate the use of torture, but no major government figure did.
This is false. The initial request to use torture came from Justice Department officials. The pundits only picked it up when the administration introduced it into the discussion. And this should be pretty obvious. I certainly have never met anybody in any setting who said, "You know, we really need to bring back torture," and I seriously doubt that much of anybody else has either. This topic has been nowhere in our popular consciousness. Indeed we just spent the '90s addressing brutality from Rodney King through Abner(?) Louima in an effort to move away from what little torture was known to exist.

Certain agencies may be secretly using torture, of course, but in public, the matter kind of died down.
Thank you for at least acknowledging the possibility. This demonstrates that, for once, you have not completely accepted what you have been told without question.

I don't see how you can say it is a fact that the government openly advocates torture when every major government figure who has commented on it publicly has come out against it.
Ah, the streak was destined to end because here we go again:

1) It was Bush administration Justice Department officials who first requested permission to use torture and that is specifically how this revolting topic entered into our popular consciousness.

2) Just because a politician or public official claims to hold a position does not mean that he in fact holds that position. This has been true since time immemorial and I seriously doubt that I really need to prove this to you. These officials will follow whatever orders come down from the top of the administration. And if they are told to do something controversial and potentially embarrassing, they will spin and dissemble as you may well have been observing them doing on your television screen.









Post#1899 at 01-30-2002 11:22 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-29 20:27, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:

Having said that, I do fear that when the President of The United States in effect supports the torture of de facto prisoners of war, it may be but the top of a slippery slope. We have already seen homegrown terrorism at Oklahoma City, Columbine, and quite probably with the anthrax attacks. What if the current Fourth Turning (and I still believe that we are in one) brings about a collapse of the American social order, resulting in home-grown terrorism on a greater scale than we have seen? With the public's tacit approval of torturing foreign nationals held prisoner, would it be so far a jump for the government to begin torturing American citizens who were "suspected terrorists"? Then, might Government agents begin labeling mere political opponents as "suspected terrorists" so as to justify their capture, and torture?

This is my fear regarding the torture of al-Queda members. I have no sympathy for the animals who conspired to attack our Nation. But I do fear that crossing the line against torture could eventually threaten innocent American citizens.
Outstanding, Kevin! The Founding Fathers just looked down at you from on high and smiled.








Post#1900 at 01-30-2002 11:23 AM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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MSM, read my post that describes the extracurricular activities of the CIA.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
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